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mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
November 30 2016 17:36 GMT
#901
Uh... TTs filter is short. That went faster than expected.
First of all: can someone link me a scum game from him?

Regarding your doubts on him
1) Two of the top town reads are Rels and Koshi, both are at the time voting for HF. He has a town read on HF. I don't see any justification for this stance.

Actually, I hadn't noticed this. (Or well... I honestly just lazily filter skimmed him before so I went over those details)
Imho this is a very valid point. Like he does even mention their current vote/case when judging them.
Though what I note is, that he has a lot of those "lazy townreads". This is making me question whether he is really a lazy mafia and makes more likely to think he is a lazy townie. Like I can see scum making 2 lazy town reads. But his townreads/leads on myself, LS, CM8 are also almost without any public doubt. On those he keeps the option to revert later, but imho scum would still try to throw more shade than he does. If someone tells me this is in his scumrange, I may rethink it, but I only know one town game from him (where he was more invested) but cant really judge his scumgame from that. And for generic scum it simply doesn't fit.

2) The read of HF it self, partially green but null/conflicted. I'm not really sure what to make of that. I get the sense that the conflict between having HF as town and Mahrgell as town is noted, but dealt with so lazily.

Your 2) just reinforces that. Lazy. Combined with what I wrote above, that doesn't necessarily make him scum.

3) Stating MvM between NU and I essentially means that TT thinks that 2 mafia have been found day 1. I find this to be a very odd conclusion.

Uhm... Not sure what you mean here. I already questioned this MvM idea. I simply don't see both of you being scum. But uhm... your line of thinking I can't follow. Yes, it is unlikely to find 2 scum day one. But this doesn't mean that it is impossible to feel like some fight is staged and MvM. Yes, often this idea ends up being bad, but thats the case with most D1 reads. And I recall myself feeling that there are staged fights IRL on D1, even when there were only scum total.

4) The case on my self is truly baffling. Either TT is lying when he says that "I didn't find anything townie" or has not been reading closely at all. Let me outline:
+ Show Spoiler +
a) Two of his top towns, Rels and Koshi, are voting for HF. Koshi had 0 interest in voting HF prior to my posts #589 and #609.
b) I am (to my knowledge at the time) not under consideration by: Rels, Koshi, LS, HF (?). All towns for TT.
c) I am currently voting for one of his towns (LS) current target.
d) The reasoning that I had for being suspicious of HF (#609) is the exact same as the reason that he is null/conflicted on HF
.


Uh, I actually like your analysis of his other reads here. But this makes me more to question his other reads than his read on you tbh. I just recall that at this time I had a very similar feeling about you.
Like I read the game from time to time during the night, and just from feeling I had a very bad feeling about you. Went to sleep and thought "tomorrow you case emp". Later I reread you and somehow this feeling had not really cemented form posts. But if I put myself in position of LazyTT, I can see where he was coming from.

mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
November 30 2016 17:36 GMT
#902
last post directed at emp
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
November 30 2016 17:41 GMT
#903
At the same time, I feel good now with my vote on NU.

NU did nothing really that convinced me to change my mind. At the same time, emp dramatically upgraded here.
What I really liked about his post on TT was that he actually analyzed it in the context of the surroundings. Like who else was voting whom, how does this make sense. And at what time during the game was the post made.

Most players don't even do that as town. They just filter dive and try to find stuff. Especially with posts farther back stuff like emp brought up gets easily missed. But doing that as scum? Way too much effort. There are easier ways to conjure shit from peoples filters.
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
November 30 2016 17:43 GMT
#904
Also I feel indeed that lynching NU gives a shit ton of information.

Though I feel we are somehow missing a chance here. Like this easy train to lynch NU is robbing us of a lot of valuable action. When people suddenly start shifting with the Lynch coming closer, a lot of information is to be gained...
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
November 30 2016 17:50 GMT
#905
lol if NU flips mafia town has it in the bag.
I had a good night of sleep.
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
November 30 2016 17:54 GMT
#906
On November 30 2016 23:40 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
13. NeverUnlucky
1. Rels
12. Tictock
4. Onegu
3. Shapelog
8. Checkm8
11. sicklucker
6. darthfoley
9. mahrgell
2. Holyflare
10. emperorchampion
5. LightningStrike

It is somewhat annoying that the list shuffles so much but that's life.


This is close to where I'm at right now (swap EC for Koshi).

1) Rels feels underwhelming right now, but I'm not sure he's mafia. Shape in a similar boat right now.

2) Onegu similarly has been underwhelming to me. His thoughts on koshi are different and he has some misgivings about rels that I would give town points for.

3) HF needs to be looked at closer, not really sure what he's going for right now. No vote, major thing was a push on mahrgell, a day 1 lynch that is not looking like it's going to happen right now. Some working with koshi, some keeping koshi in check. I don't know where this leaves him. Some votes of confidence from a few people, but that's it.

4) c8 needs to generate more content.

5) darthfoley needs to generate more content.

6) sl I feel OK about right now.
TRUEESPORTS || your days as a respected member of team liquid are over
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
November 30 2016 17:57 GMT
#907
@ mahrgell: Can you summarize everything on this page you posted like 2 bullet points (short ones) so we can see your conclusions?
TRUEESPORTS || your days as a respected member of team liquid are over
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30774 Posts
November 30 2016 18:07 GMT
#908
Yeh I don't think emp is ever mafia with analysis/thinking like that. I liked Marzipan's rant/koshi is null post. I'm good, I think I like LS simply by virtue of him being very forward about his past games.

I forget who else to talk about. More in a bit.
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
November 30 2016 18:07 GMT
#909
- TT certainly looks lazy, but I tend towards lazy town instead of lazy scum
- your post on him still makes me like you more, cuz you also considered the surroundings well and this is more effort than I expect from scum (and even more effort than many townies put in)
- feel good about NU lynch at this point, even though I feel this calm finish of the day is wasting chances.
NeverUnlucky
Profile Joined August 2016
Canada1622 Posts
November 30 2016 18:11 GMT
#910
#895 was a great post. emp probably town
"The more I look at it, the more convinced I am that NU bussed himself intentionally." -darthfoley
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
November 30 2016 18:11 GMT
#911
To bring up my unanswered question from earlier:

@Tictock: (voting emp) : You had a full scumread on emp, half scum on NU. You think they both can be scum? Will you stay on Emp?

@Rels: (voting HF): Quite a while since you posted. Still convinced on HF? He posted quite some stuff since then. If this train dies down (seems like it) what is your updated opinion on NU vs Emp.

@DF: (voting HF): You mentioned you consider HF,SL or Emp as viable lynches. HF and SL posted. So you are now on Emp if it would come down to Emp vs NU?

@CM8: (not voting): Can you stop playing clueless noob? Like I don't care if you are clueless or not. But you must have an opinion. Your strongest wording so far was some mistrust on NU (why? because others made good arguments on him?) and some weak stuff on Onegu. We are lynching someone soon. Can you become more concrete and post with a bit more confidence? If you were a dayvig, who would you shoot now?
darthfoley
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States8003 Posts
November 30 2016 18:11 GMT
#912
On December 01 2016 00:55 NeverUnlucky wrote:
Koshi's case on me is great, but I'm town :/


wtf who says this as town???? especially you of all people. last game if someone hinted that you might be mafia, you flipped shit. I understand you might not be motivated to play or something but that does not "normalize" this response from a player like you.

like mahrgell or checkm8 would do this type of post but i can't see a world in which you just lie down and take it like this
watch the wall collide with my fist, mostly over problems that i know i should fix
NeverUnlucky
Profile Joined August 2016
Canada1622 Posts
November 30 2016 18:12 GMT
#913
Though I don't get how he can dedicate such thorough analysis on TT his scum-read and vote me because my actions make him feel uneasy.
"The more I look at it, the more convinced I am that NU bussed himself intentionally." -darthfoley
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
November 30 2016 18:12 GMT
#914
On December 01 2016 03:11 darthfoley wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2016 00:55 NeverUnlucky wrote:
Koshi's case on me is great, but I'm town :/


wtf who says this as town???? especially you of all people. last game if someone hinted that you might be mafia, you flipped shit. I understand you might not be motivated to play or something but that does not "normalize" this response from a player like you.

like mahrgell or checkm8 would do this type of post but i can't see a world in which you just lie down and take it like this

Should I feel bad now?
NeverUnlucky
Profile Joined August 2016
Canada1622 Posts
November 30 2016 18:14 GMT
#915
On December 01 2016 03:11 darthfoley wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2016 00:55 NeverUnlucky wrote:
Koshi's case on me is great, but I'm town :/


wtf who says this as town???? especially you of all people. last game if someone hinted that you might be mafia, you flipped shit. I understand you might not be motivated to play or something but that does not "normalize" this response from a player like you.

like mahrgell or checkm8 would do this type of post but i can't see a world in which you just lie down and take it like this

I flipped shit at Calix and Skynx because their cases on me were FUCKING GARBAGE and factually incorrect. This game I hinted that at emperor and LS's posts on me while trying not to be toxic, but Koshi's case on me makes sense.

Yes, I am town, 100%.
"The more I look at it, the more convinced I am that NU bussed himself intentionally." -darthfoley
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
November 30 2016 18:18 GMT
#916
On December 01 2016 03:12 NeverUnlucky wrote:
Though I don't get how he can dedicate such thorough analysis on TT his scum-read and vote me because my actions make him feel uneasy.


Think of it like activation energy at the moment. I'm possibly willing to move to TT, but I need a little push to get me out of my current state.
TRUEESPORTS || your days as a respected member of team liquid are over
Onegu
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States9699 Posts
November 30 2016 18:23 GMT
#917
On November 30 2016 04:14 emperorchampion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2016 03:59 Shapelog wrote:
EC do you think LS is town?


Not sure at the moment. Right now, seems to me like either misguided town, or devious mafia. More likely would be misguided town out of those to me. Could also be the case that NU is actually mafia, and he's on-track-town.That considered, doesn't presently look like a good lynch target to me.

You want to go after him?



I really dont like any of EC's posts. Almost none of them give anything concrete except TT later in his filter. A bunch of his posts are like this one, not giving a actual stance, and then trying to get someone elses read. It seems really opportunistic to me.

But even after he makes his TT read he keeps his vote on NU saying he needs feedback? I feel he is playing scared mafia. I would be ok with my vote on him.

If you look at his fliter TT was right even though he is voting NU he is waffleing on him so much, yet he keeps his vote on him after calling him scum.
Try TL Mafia!!!
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
November 30 2016 18:24 GMT
#918
On December 01 2016 03:18 emperorchampion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2016 03:12 NeverUnlucky wrote:
Though I don't get how he can dedicate such thorough analysis on TT his scum-read and vote me because my actions make him feel uneasy.


Think of it like activation energy at the moment. I'm possibly willing to move to TT, but I need a little push to get me out of my current state.

Hmm. Rels is next in line I think.
I had a good night of sleep.
Onegu
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States9699 Posts
November 30 2016 18:28 GMT
#919
On December 01 2016 01:27 emperorchampion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2016 15:21 Tictock wrote:
Rels - Feels a lot like last game joining a bit late but just dropping thoughts as he has them. His "Ok NVM" posts support that he is just saying what he thinks as he thinks it, not trying to construct stuff. Very likely town.

Holyflare - I don't agree with much of what HF said about gell, but it feels in line with stuff he's pushed before. To restate: I disagree with his reasoning to scumread mahrgell but it's not unlike pushes I've seen from town!HF before. There are a couple posts I feel could fall into DMA + Show Spoiler +
Dick Move Analysis, basically just the trend that mafia aren't usually outright mean to other players
, #453, #494, #507. So I'm tempted to townlean HF, however I'm not convinced any of this is outside his mafia wheelhouse so it's just a weak lean for now. In fact thinking about it more there are similarities to his push on gell and how he pushed me in (I think?) his last scum game. He was also fairly lackluster D1 in that game until he pushed for shenanigans onto Rels at EoD. Guess I'm pretty null/conflicted on HF.

Shapelog - I'm suprised how straightforward Shape is being this game honestly. Sure he threw out the cop WIFOM right off but that was pretty much the only time he hasn't been fairly serious this game. I'd be more worried about it if I didn't feel like I could see where he is coming from generaly and liked a few of the points he's been making. The one thing that stood out as strange to me was his NU read in #403
+ Show Spoiler +
Shape started off saying he didn't find much to sway him either way yet here was his conclusion:
Overall he has been overstressing things more than they should, which is more AI of a scum player than a town player. But, NU tone as town in previous games is like that. And while he did say he was trying to change his meta, tone and writing style is harder to change than just what you post. He's null/light scum read, but once he posts more content posts (along with everyone else), I will relook.


Onegu - Flipping my read from earlier. I gave Onegu some credit for doing some stuff right off and seeming like he was involved. Skimming his filter now I find basically nothing with real content in it. Seems like he burnt up a bunch of energy right at the start posting a bunch but now that there is stuff to actually discuss has dropped off. Would be someone to re-evaluate closer to EoD is I have time.

LightningStrike - Kinda a lazy read but LS just feels tonally on point to me and has been pretty involved. I'd imagine him having a harder time being this comfortable rolling scum after such a long absence from playing.

darthfoley - Pretty meh over his filter. I can kinda see where he is coming from at times, but I dislike how he dropped Shape from a townread to null just kus Rels asked him about it. I was going to call his vote on HF opportunistic, but he did mention not liking HF in an earlier post. I think I just need to see more from Darth to get a better read, I do recall him being a bit like this last game as well.

Koshi - Like I said before I see no reason for him to take a step back from his scumread on me like he did if he were mafia. I also imagine he'd be way more burnt out rolling scum for the 5th game in a row. Sure he'd play to win still, but what I've seen is a fair bit above what mafia would need to be doing at this point in the game.

Checkm8 - Not much to go on, and yea as others have mentioned he's overplayed the newb card. His one post of content felt legit. Idk, gut says town.

mahrgell - Feels a lot like what I recall from last game and pretty tonally on point as well. I also liked his reactions to HF's pressure (possibly another DMA) and while I get his big reads post feeling a bit lackluster it also reads to me like his legit thoughts at the time. Fairly strong townlean here.

emperorchampion - I honestly have no clue where Emp's head is at this game. Starts off some pressure on NU then does a 180 with no explanation and is now back to scumreading him. This post in particular stands out to me.
On November 30 2016 02:22 emperorchampion wrote:
NU probably town. LS don't really like trying to set up mafia between NU and I. TT haven't really liked from the get go. mahrgell's got this mix of above average content, lots of questions, pressure on incorrect target that's raising some flags for me. That's where I'm at right now. There are a ton of questions for me that I may answer at some point, largely related to NU I imagine, but that guy is town for now.

This is where he 180's on NU, throws shade on LS for suggesting there is mafia between himself and NU (which is odd since he had also thought NU was sus a few posts before), doesn't like me, and the stuff about gell is almost litterally word vomit. Feels like a scatter shot post flinging shit and seeing what might stick.

I really did try to find something redeeming in his filter that might make Emp town, but I came up with nothin.

sicklucker - pretty dam null, nothing stood out to me either way

NeverUnlucky - Reading through the game I kinda felt like NU is a lot more held back than I have ever seen him. I liked his point in #285 in response to Koshi. Other than that though I'm really not following his reads, and especially his pushes. Kinda a shame NU was last on the list, I feel like I need to be more awake to make a better read here. Leaving him as a scum read kus something feels off about him in my gut.



##Vote: emperorchampion

Seems like the best option to me. I have an odd feeling that the Emp vs NU stuff so far has actually been Mafia on Mafia. NU has actually said very little about Emp despite being one of his scumreads and Emp's read on NU has been a bit all over the place. Their interactions are also pretty tame for two people scum reading one another as well. I might be hitting the tinfoil a bit here though.


Lets talk about this post more. My conclusions:
1) TT is not following the game at all, or
2) TT is mafia.

Consider the state of the game when this was made: Rels and Koshi were voting HF, I had just voted NU.

1) Two of the top town reads are Rels and Koshi, both are at the time voting for HF. He has a town read on HF. I don't see any justification for this stance.
2) The read of HF it self, partially green but null/conflicted. I'm not really sure what to make of that. I get the sense that the conflict between having HF as town and Mahrgell as town is noted, but dealt with so lazily.
3) Stating MvM between NU and I essentially means that TT thinks that 2 mafia have been found day 1. I find this to be a very odd conclusion.
4) The case on my self is truly baffling. Either TT is lying when he says that "I didn't find anything townie" or has not been reading closely at all. Let me outline:
a) Two of his top towns, Rels and Koshi, are voting for HF. Koshi had 0 interest in voting HF prior to my posts #589 and #609.
b) I am (to my knowledge at the time) not under consideration by: Rels, Koshi, LS, HF (?). All towns for TT.
c) I am currently voting for one of his towns (LS) current target.
d) The reasoning that I had for being suspicious of HF (#609) is the exact same as the reason that he is null/conflicted on HF.

In summary: based on the 3 points above, if TT didn't find anything townie what so ever in my filter, then he must be lying. IF this is the case, the only purpose that makes immediate sense is that he's mafia. Otherwise, as stated, maybe he's not reading closely at all, but I think that makes him an OK lynch candidate as well.



@NU why is this a good post?

1) You can town read people and think they are wrong. Just because they think someone is scum doesnt mean you have to think they are correct if you think they are town.

2) bleh

3) Why is it odd. If you think you caught 2 scum on day 1 that seems fairly normal to me.

4) I dont really find anything worth town reading EC for. Who cares what your reads are and if I agree with some of them or not that isnt what makes someone town or scum, Its the reasons for which he finds them town or scum.

But then he waffles on actually scum reading him and looks at other people for their thoughts.
Try TL Mafia!!!
NeverUnlucky
Profile Joined August 2016
Canada1622 Posts
November 30 2016 18:28 GMT
#920
On December 01 2016 03:23 Onegu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2016 04:14 emperorchampion wrote:
On November 30 2016 03:59 Shapelog wrote:
EC do you think LS is town?


Not sure at the moment. Right now, seems to me like either misguided town, or devious mafia. More likely would be misguided town out of those to me. Could also be the case that NU is actually mafia, and he's on-track-town.That considered, doesn't presently look like a good lynch target to me.

You want to go after him?



I really dont like any of EC's posts. Almost none of them give anything concrete except TT later in his filter. A bunch of his posts are like this one, not giving a actual stance, and then trying to get someone elses read. It seems really opportunistic to me.

But even after he makes his TT read he keeps his vote on NU saying he needs feedback? I feel he is playing scared mafia. I would be ok with my vote on him.

If you look at his fliter TT was right even though he is voting NU he is waffleing on him so much, yet he keeps his vote on him after calling him scum.

mahrgell too is similar in that regard re: his read on me kept going back and forth with no solid stance. His solid stance like emp (though he seems to be waffling again a bit) happened after koshi stated he full on scum-read me.

Also, I read Rels' filter and didn't find anything mafier. I still think he is town for the SL timing post.
"The more I look at it, the more convinced I am that NU bussed himself intentionally." -darthfoley
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