Who needs 72 hours anyway! [M][T]

On July 19 2016 05:47 Lunaticman wrote:
Is there a way to follow this thread so I get a notification when someone posts?

On July 20 2016 10:21 Damdred wrote:
My tea gas two cups of sugar per gallon.

Fight .me

On July 20 2016 20:52 Skynx wrote:
I would check presidental mafia and newbie mafia for metas if you're really curious and have some free-time. I got some clients coming in so prolly last post till late night.

On July 20 2016 19:58 Rels wrote:

Why would revealing more about yourself would "spoil the fun" ?

I am an active player as either alignment. As town I have the most success finding scum by finding inconsistency in what they say. As scum I try to replicate that to destroy lynchbait.

On July 20 2016 19:44 Lunaticman wrote:



About 20 games, with around 8-16 players per game. We usually only played with the standard roles with some flavour such as Medic and Sheriff. But basically vanila mafia. Each game might have lasted around 8 hours per playthrough.

I would consider myself an very vocal player but also guilable. Many games have been one or lost because of people spending to much time analyzing my actions. As I always say to myself the silent mafia is the worst mafia...

but I digress since this seems very different.

On July 20 2016 22:00 Skynx wrote:

No, I'm doing internship and they barely paid attention to me :/

On July 20 2016 22:02 Lunaticman wrote:


haha, wow how did this read happen :D

I thank you for the vote of confidence though!

On July 20 2016 22:04 Lunaticman wrote:


Yes it is quite intense and I love the shit out of it. I would play it everyday if I could. The shocks. Someone could probably earn a living by recording mafia games and posting them online.

On July 20 2016 22:13 Koshi wrote:

No. Mafia tends to do it in the thread because it is a post with a lot of words that puts them in the center of attention without any risk.

Do you see how he used way more words than needed?

Doesn't make him mafia. But I have seen mafia do it just like that.

On July 20 2016 22:24 Koshi wrote:

If you were town, do you think you would be good reading skynx?

pretty hard question. I know.

On July 20 2016 22:38 Koshi wrote:

Could you give me your full view on him near EoD? I have this genious play to let skynx and you read each other and follow those reads.

pls remember because I will forget it.

On July 20 2016 22:52 Skynx wrote:

I have one tactic: bus emperor or die trying.

On July 20 2016 22:52 Palmar wrote:

I'm in the game, right?

On July 20 2016 22:54 Skynx wrote:

I can figure what went down in QT even tho i can't read it ^^

On July 20 2016 22:31 Lunaticman wrote:


You are to cynical, I would have asked as either alignment because Im new

On July 20 2016 23:10 Skynx wrote:

I have my reasons.

On July 20 2016 22:54 Skynx wrote:

I can figure what went down in QT even tho i can't read it ^^

On July 20 2016 23:26 Tumblewood wrote:
actually no
luna's one post is not enough to balance out his previous posting. he's been posting but hardly playing all game. that definitely warrants a scumlean in my book. (this also applies to ec)
also if luna is scum I guess koshi isn't partners because why make a scum case and not go for the cred? shitty mafia move.

On July 20 2016 23:34 Tumblewood wrote:

when I say "posting but not playing" I mean you and luna are making a lot of posts but hardly working toward solving the game.

On July 20 2016 23:48 Tumblewood wrote:

players I have an opinion on:
you (scum lean but having doubts)
ec (scum lean)
koshi (association stuff with you)
I think I was screaming gracka but I don't remember why so it probably isn't important

On July 21 2016 00:50 Tumblewood wrote:

ec, this is the kind of stuff I'm talking about
you're making a lot of posts that don't further the game, which is definitely not a weak reason. also out of place because you make a big case on me and then go straight to "let's talk about coffee!"

On July 21 2016 00:54 Koshi wrote:
1 milk and 2 sugars in a cup. And I never finish the cup because I dont like coffee. Still drink 3 unfinished cups a day.

On July 21 2016 00:54 Koshi wrote:
But only when I am at work. I never drink coffee when I am free.

On July 21 2016 00:58 nnn_thekushmountains wrote:
do i really have to read all this or is it all about coffee and tea and stuff?

On July 21 2016 01:14 Lunaticman wrote:
There is a worrying amount of silent players

On July 21 2016 01:57 Tumblewood wrote:
happy with voting Skynx or ec at the moment, slight preference to ec

On July 21 2016 02:07 DCWasabi wrote:


OK, but if there is one thing that I learned from my first 2 games, it is that it is pretty nontrivial to "work towards solving the game" on Day 1. I think the first thing that is useful that one can do is get some activity out there day 1, and get your tone established so that you can be more easily read as town by the town moving forwards. I think this is one of the things that I actually did properly as town in the Onegu Best Host Game.

Town should be trying to solve the game, but some of the players haven't even posted yet, for example it is 10am local time for me and I just woke-up 30 mins ago and am trying to get caught up.

I don't scumlean either of those guys yet, tbh.

At the same time, I kind of like this post by Tumble because it is the kind of thing that can help to start more meaningful discussion going and discourage people from posting random banter, otherwise they might get scum-read by this reasoning.

I am going to slightly town-lean Tumble because his post leads to a slightly more favorable environment for town.

On July 21 2016 02:08 Tumblewood wrote:

I don't see a response

On July 21 2016 01:07 emperorchampion wrote:
I was thinking to look more in depth, but I think the sentence that I posted sums it up pretty well actually.

On July 21 2016 02:11 Tumblewood wrote:
also because no one seems to understand "posting without playing" I'll rephrase it to posting without a purpose.

On July 21 2016 02:15 Tumblewood wrote:

I don't question your reasoning on Palmar, I question the fact that you have a read on a guy who played for all of 5 minutes before leaving.

On July 21 2016 02:19 emperorchampion wrote:


What do you think about my reasoning on kruppe vs my reasoning on Palmar?

On July 21 2016 02:25 Tumblewood wrote:

afaik you put kruppe in the inactive null category. I can't imagine him being anywhere else. I'm surprised though that Palmar is a town lean and not in the inactive null category with him.

On July 21 2016 02:22 DCWasabi wrote:


Sure, if it is taken to the extreme.
But you can still have conversation and a light-hearted tone as long as you have good content and real posts that are aimed to move the game forward mixed in with the banter.
I don't see how you can argue that most posts being banter is good for the town?

On July 21 2016 02:52 Skynx wrote:

This is unnecessary push. Defending yourself while you're not the main topic of conversation is not alignment indicative.
Also that wasn't a defence.

On July 21 2016 03:09 Tumblewood wrote:

ec do you want a case? I'll give you a case.

why ec is scum

summary:
1. posting to blend in and not to push town forward
2. no clear direction in his posting
(these are different points I promise)

1.

take this post. there's no conceivable purpose behind this because clearly nothing piques his interest (or else it would have focused on one point) but he asks a series of unrelated questions, the answers to which would not be helpful. I see no reason to make this post besides "it's a contribution".
[\quote]

Actually there was a point behind it, I wanted to know if you're thinking things through. You make weak reads on me an luna, but nothing on Skynx who, at the time I felt, was also making some conversational posts. Maybe rels had some conversation in there too. Felt like an odd exclusion to me. You gave no further reasoning on that point. The grackAttack point was also to check how much you had thought through this "posting with purpose" (and at this point you had not well defined what you meant about this) point, since I felt he hadn't really contributed much at that point, and feels much more "blend-iny" to me. The first point about the koshi/lunatic thing was a little bit of clarification on my end. And the fourth point was tounge-in-cheek . So purpose to all of them.

It also lead to this:

Which is very defensive over nothing.


literally a paragraph about inactive players out of nowhere

this is what I'm talking about.

also:

2.

I don't want to quote ec's WoT in post 299, but in 299 ec makes a big ol' case on me and then three minutes later makes a post about coffee. it shows me that he isn't concerning himself with actually pushing his reads in thread but just making a case and carrying on. you get what I mean? I get what I mean.

[br]
in a sentence, ec is speaking without asking to be listened to, which is imo a huge scumtell.

On July 21 2016 03:20 Tumblewood wrote:
and I don't get how ec can be scum three games in a row, then act the exact same way the next game and notbe scumread

On July 21 2016 03:27 Lunaticman wrote:


Based on this I'm putting down my vote for now on EC.

Even if he turns green you will be the next auto lynch. Or rather a blue should check you during the night to save a lynch target.

I will change the vote if someone comes up with a better argument for a d1 lynch.

On July 21 2016 03:34 emperorchampion wrote:


Ah, this here guys was the post I was waiting for and honestly what I feel he has been trying to say the entire time. I'm glad that you finally came out and said what you've been setting up since the pregame, and even back to when we were mafia together in presidential.

On July 21 2016 03:41 Palmar wrote:

no actually just fuck it, if people are going to revert to the stupid spamming style of playing I'm not even gonna bother trying.

http://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/dnZQAJvqMFi4

gg

On July 21 2016 03:44 Skynx wrote:
No fking way is that legit?

On July 21 2016 03:46 Skynx wrote:

I can't open it...

On July 21 2016 03:45 Lunaticman wrote:


I think it was a good argument, and votes generate friction, which generates more content. I am totally fine voting for someone if I think the argument is good enough especially on day 1. What I find confusing is why you would demote your own arugment, that is very strange.

I actually think he is fighting for his life as a townie, but the day is far from over.

On July 21 2016 04:00 Lunaticman wrote:


EC, tell me who would you vote for and why?

On July 21 2016 04:10 Lunaticman wrote:


Redirecting suspicion to the accuser is never a good call, it makes you look desperate. I am also by far the easiet lynch target.

Tumble is playing well, I think he is doing a good job as a detective so far, he is generating content. I also find it intresting the way several people are defending you.

Either way there are many constolations forming in the game which will benifit town in the future.

On July 21 2016 04:19 Tumblewood wrote:

?

ec, I know many things
I know that newb scum sucks at pretending to contribute
I know that townies don't make posts with no purpose
I know that, as scum, you make empty posts like you have this game
and, because of this I know that you're scum. treat it like a real case and not a meme.

On July 21 2016 04:22 Lunaticman wrote:


No but the timing is awful. In my mind your digging a deeper hole you should just have waited with that point.

In IRL mafia where I play that would have been a fatal misstake.

On July 21 2016 04:25 emperorchampion wrote:


Waited with which point?

On July 21 2016 03:55 Lunaticman wrote:



No, I agree, this is my way to encourage them to participate. And I didnt say they are scum, I said they were scummy.
Of course the best lynch is someone that could exonerate several players, and EC feels like a potential one.

On July 21 2016 05:02 Lunaticman wrote:

I think you are town and I will switch votes soon. But I am not sure yet which player though.

[b]##unvote[/b]

On July 21 2016 20:51 Rels wrote:


Instant townread.
Knowing Skynx doesn't have access to quicktopic, it's very likely this comment is not a joke. So it's either a town being mad or a scum faking it. The simpler explanation is often the right one.

On July 21 2016 20:57 Rels wrote:

Kruppe posting 15 minutes after being called out by Palmar is suspicious.

On July 21 2016 21:35 Lunaticman wrote:
Also if Palmer turns red, there is a good chance EC is red too.

On July 21 2016 22:11 Lunaticman wrote:


Tbh I already did state my reasoning multiple times.

But i don't see how it turns him into a townie from your perspective.

On July 21 2016 12:07 Tumblewood wrote:
lol just remembered I have two quotes open in other tabs

the note on kruppe kinda weirds me out but I think kush wouldn't be that obvious probably

On July 21 2016 22:41 Koshi wrote:

I agree Palmar might be mafia. And last times I said Palmar was mafia he actually was mafia and I got night killed and people didn't lynch him. So I am glad you are in the game.


I am currently thinking about Kruppe as well. What is your opinion?


My current scumteam:

Palmar/Kruppe/Rels

On July 21 2016 22:45 Lunaticman wrote:


I actually demand to know what you are referencing "his style suggests that he's not aware of certain stuff behind posts" why don't you enlighten me?

And I think I have a pretty good handle on the game atm, I'll follow my instinct until I am proven wrong. I am actually quite easy to convince if you bring out good arguments. I have not done a single action without justifying it, compared to many of the other players.

And also, everyone gets lynched at some point. It is only a matter on how you go out that you can choose.

On July 21 2016 22:52 Lunaticman wrote:


I would say most of the votes are based nothing atm besides mine. Also there has been a lot of undermining of people which is a typical Master suppression technique favored among mafia.

On July 21 2016 23:06 Koshi wrote:

Fine. I can kill the eel as well. Or Rels.

On July 21 2016 20:41 Rels wrote:

I don't like this post. DC I need you to explain yourself on two things.
1- You say "Town should be trying to solve the game". Now you say it's hard to solve the game at the time of this post because "some of the players haven't even posted yet". BUT the players Tumble are talking about have posted quite a lot already. So this doesn't apply ? What is the motivation that pushed you making this post ? Why do you disagree with Tumble here ?
2 - Why do you don't scumlean either of those guys "yet" ? Cause it seems like yuo plan on scumleaning them later, which doesn't make sense, if they are scummy you should scumlean them now ?

On July 21 2016 05:01 DCWasabi wrote:
Fuck, slow-down with the 1-liners everyone.

Want to clarify my stance a bit on the Tumble vs Empc thing as it seems like it is important.

I TR Tumblewood because I think he is trying to promote a good environment for town and he seems to be reading and interested in solving things.

I don't agree with his argument that Empc is necessarily scum though, because I think he actually is playing a bit differently this game... for example I don't see him making "logical leaps" like he did in Onegu or pushing as hard as he did early in that game; so I don't think that you can scum read him just off of Meta.

Tumble vs Empc seems T v T initially.

Let's focus on some not-useless shit.

I gotta get back to work for a bit, but I will be around...

On July 21 2016 22:36 emperorchampion wrote:

I think it's a good point by kush regarding kruppe's posting, but you are saying it could be TMI from kush?

On July 21 2016 23:43 Lunaticman wrote:
It just feels like the votes are not adding up to what ppl are talking about.

On July 21 2016 23:58 Grackaroni wrote:

It's in my filter. I don't think I can explain it any better. My experience with Kush makes me think his tone is off. Town Kush doesn't give a crap. Scum Kush feels some obligation not to fuck over his teammates.

On July 21 2016 23:52 Lunaticman wrote:


Isn't it hard playing as town?

I think Koshi made some good points. But I dont want Palmer to walk especially since he hasn't been active.

On July 22 2016 00:36 prplhz wrote:
Just start stacking votes on Rels and see where it leads.

Pros: He's scum
Cons: Maybe he's town but then we'll figure out something else

But seriously, we need this to go somewhere other than 6 different directions and Rels could absolutely be scum. So start stacking votes on him.

On July 22 2016 00:45 Palmar wrote:

I actually forgot rels is in the game and I'll join in with prplhz's cause.

On July 22 2016 01:11 Koshi wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/511409-onegu-is-the-best-host-mafia?user=Kruppe the Eel

You see? I don't even have to read till the end of his first page to see he is advancing the game in his own style. Which was pretty fun when I read it.


This game? Nothing.


It is not blind luck. He is way more underwhelming than his last game. He was one of the first to see Vivax was town and Snickers mafia in that game.



DISCLAIMER: I actually do not know if Kruppe was town in that game.

On July 22 2016 01:23 Koshi wrote:

He didn't cast any suspicion on Rels. It was 4 names and Rels was one of them. But he didn't redirect town towards rels AT ALL. He is playing very obviously less pro town than that last game. He is not pushing town towards the right direction and he is just sitting there roleplaying.

There is really no reason to leave him alive. Except if you find a person who is likely more mafia than him atm. Which could be Rels.

On July 20 2016 19:47 Rels wrote:
Something needs to be said right now.
We won't ever use the majority vote to end the day early. Barring things like a red check or a fakeclaim ofc.
Longer day is almost always a good thing. More time to solve the game, more time to hear what lynch candidates have to say, no risk of snap lynching a scummy townie that is just AFK.
If you're against that speak now then STFU forever.

On July 20 2016 19:58 Rels wrote:

Why would revealing more about yourself would "spoil the fun" ?

I am an active player as either alignment. As town I have the most success finding scum by finding inconsistency in what they say. As scum I try to replicate that to destroy lynchbait.

On July 20 2016 20:39 Rels wrote:

Jailkeeper protects a person each night, like a doctor. The difference is that he also roleblocks his target. If his target is a cop for example, the cop will be protected but won't be able to check someone that night. If the jailkeeper target is a mafia killing someone, his target won't be able to carry the kill (IE no mafia kill will happen).

Strongarm: during the night, the mafia can kill one person. If their target is protected, the kill won't happen. BUT the strongarm can make it so that the kill will bypass protection.

Godfather: a cop can check a person each night to learn his alignment: town or mafia. A godfather will return "town" to a cop acheck.

On July 21 2016 20:28 Rels wrote:
Lunatic is very townie for a newbie. Always questioning stuff posted in the thread + posting when there are silence in the thread to give boost to the game. It doesn't seem like it but it actually is hard to continually post as scum, so it's a towntell that he's doing these in his first forum mafia game.

On July 21 2016 20:54 Rels wrote:

Why are SL / Kruppe scummy when they have done nothing at all ?

On July 21 2016 21:02 Rels wrote:
Alright meeting time, see you in a few hours (= please answer my question if I've asked you one earlier. My mind atm:

Town

Lunatic
Skynx
EC
Tumble
Palmar

Scum

Koshi
Kruppe
DC

People missing are null.

On July 22 2016 02:44 Lunaticman wrote:


How does this conflict?

On July 22 2016 03:18 sicklucker wrote:


you really dont like me do you

On July 22 2016 03:10 Lunaticman wrote:


Maybe I was unclear, I was thinking about the Vigilante versus parity cop. Does one exclude the other or are they the same thing?
I was confused by the statement.

I mean is he lying because he claimed cop?

On July 22 2016 03:28 sicklucker wrote:
I dont think anyone really claimed except lunatic might have claimed vt lul

On July 22 2016 03:32 Palmar wrote:


Kruppe is a crapshot, but as always with policy lynches, there exists a reason to play like he does as mafia, and none as town, so technically he should objectively be mafia.

On the other hand, trolls rarely care if they're playing anti town so whatever.

Also, bro.

I'm not joking, the list post was literally me randomizing the people in the game and adding some categories headers. I think my own name is in one of the null categories. It's 100% bullshit and should be treated as such.

On July 22 2016 03:41 Palmar wrote:




I thought his post about trying to force people to make mistakes by voting them was dumb in a fun way, so I voted him "to try to get him to make mistakes".

ie: I voted him to troll his reasoning.

On July 22 2016 03:55 Palmar wrote:
Solid reason, or well, a non-scummy way of doing things in the game.

Good plan.

On July 22 2016 04:04 Lunaticman wrote:
Was Haze fake claiming role too?

On July 22 2016 05:19 Rels wrote:

OK. I see your point.
DC is still a better lynch

On July 22 2016 05:25 Lunaticman wrote:


I just feel like we wont gain any information from kruppe...

Im going to bed in 30 min, so please decide before that what we are going for.

On July 22 2016 05:56 Kruppe the Eel wrote:


Kruppe read Rels as a friend at the start of the game.

On July 22 2016 06:05 sicklucker wrote:
kush just scumread everyone and it was really weird. he even voted me and I was voting a person for voting him

On July 22 2016 06:13 Rels wrote:
DC is still the best lynch

On July 22 2016 22:38 Koshi wrote:

Like... I think most mafia are in here and decided to kill Palmar due to this list.

Tumble Skynx Rels.


Krupp is confirmed blue unless CC.

On July 22 2016 22:51 Lunaticman wrote:


Yes I was thinking the same thing, but isn't that what they want us to believe? I mean either your assumption is correct or we should inverse the list and look there instead.

On July 22 2016 23:00 Koshi wrote:
oh 1 more thing. I think DCW played very townie when he came back to the thread. agree?

On July 22 2016 23:20 Kruppe the Eel wrote:


Mayhaps Kruppe did not intend to save Tumblewood.

On July 22 2016 23:23 Koshi wrote:

yes. It prevents nks.

On July 22 2016 23:25 Skynx wrote:

That's a sly line. If you're not town reading me for pointing out crucial mistakes from a town pillar I don't know what makes me town. This is not you Koshi.
I had a solid D1, both kush and Palmar were my townreads and I pushed agaisnt kush lynch when it was still in discussion. I had no reason to townread kush when the only main argument on why he's scum, by Grack was based on tone and I pushed grack for it.

Now I only have to figure out who are your teammates.

On July 22 2016 06:56 Damdred wrote:
Day 1 Votecount

Kruppe the Eel(1): Koshi, PrplhzGrackaroni, Skynx, Sicklucker
DCWasabi(3): Rels, Skynx, emperorchampion, Lunaticman
Rels (2): Prplhz, emperorchampion, Palmar, Lunaticma Tumblewood, prphlz
Skynx(1): Kruppe the Eel, Palmar
emperorchampion (1): Lunaticman, Tumblewood
Sicklucker(1):: nnn_thekushmountains
Palmar(0):: Lunaticman
Lunaticman(0): Skynx
nnn_thekushmountains (5): [Grackaroni, Palmar Grackaroni, koshi, palmar, sicklucker, Dcwasabi

Not voting (0):
Deadline is in on Thursday, Jul 21 10:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)


Currently kush is set to be lynched with five votes. if anything is wrong please pm your local mod support

On July 22 2016 23:45 Koshi wrote:

I don't think there was any incentive for mafia to jump to or create the Kush wagon. So don't assume mafia showed face. The only thing you can assume is that mafia tends to spread out a bit. It's what mafia does.

On July 23 2016 00:59 Lunaticman wrote:


Man this is hard. jesus.

I am honestly still in chock from night 1.

Tbh I think out of you two my feeling is that Koshi is more scum. But we would probably get more information if you got lynched.

So hard...

On July 23 2016 01:31 Rels wrote:
I have some good news for me, but bad for the game. I have a surprise weekend in the wild so I won't be here all weekend. Given that I was almost lynched yesterday that means that I could be lynched because of that today but I can't do anything about it. If I don't die before that I'll be back Monday.
Not available right now but I'll be there in a few hours to read the thread & comment, after that I'll be gone.

On July 23 2016 02:01 prplhz wrote:
Kruppe the Eel is just jail keeper for now.

Koshi did a lot of work yesterday, both making cases and trying to steer town in the right direction. I already said that it would be weird of him to antagonize a town Palmar if he was just going to kill him anyway. I also think he's a good night kill so lynching him on d2 seems silly. Lets lynch him in LYLO or something, okay?

Skynx is going (or trying to go) 1v1 against a confirmed unlynchable townie. I assume scum isn't in a desperate nigh unwinnable situation after the mislynch so I don't think this is a hail mary scum strategy.

I'm fairly town?

Lunaticman is a lunatic but probably also town.

Palmar, nnn_thekushmountains, both pretty green according to Race Bannon's cases.

I'm going to go ahead and call sicklucker town too for now. We had the same thoughts about Kruppe the Eel's claim. I'm sure he's gonna come in here and say "I would do this as scum too" and "You would shoot as vigilante too" because that's very sickluckerish, but whatever.

That leaves:

Rels, Tumblewood, Grackaroni, emperorchampion, DCWasabi.

So I'm just going to read into those people at some point.

On July 23 2016 02:57 Grackaroni wrote:
The only thing that sticks out to me from Palmar is that he was one of the few suspicious of Tumblewood. It's either because of that or the scum team is just bad.

On July 23 2016 03:13 Grackaroni wrote:

I don't see the logic of it. Palmar was townreading Koshi. Scumhunting is how we will establish ourselves as town.

On July 23 2016 03:14 Skynx wrote:
Think about it this way. Palmar and kush are two incredibly good analytical players. They are both eliminated and some people have no problem with this.

On July 23 2016 03:22 Grackaroni wrote:

Why am I making this assumption? I think that would leave a scumteam of SL/Rels/Tumblewood. But this is tentative. I'm going to be here for a while making a thorough reread of this game. I'm going to make sure the day 2 lynch hits scum since my day 1 lynch did not.

On July 23 2016 03:44 Lunaticman wrote:


I want the lynch today to be someone of these three:

10) Tumblewood
11) Kruppe the eel
12) Koshi

I am positive there is at least one scum among them.

It feels like Skynx and Koshie are town. I had Tumble down as town too. Kruppe is an enigma too me.

I don't have time to do any deep analysis for until tomorrow though.

On July 23 2016 04:43 Rels wrote:
The reasonning is simple.
Tumble tunneled me the last game we played together. We were both town. He had a thoughtful reasonning as to why I was scum, but he was super wrong. Nevertheless he tunneled me and lost the game when mafia piled the votes on me.
He said post game he was going to work on his tunnel.
But he's doing the opposite this game. He's tunneling me so much this game that he's scumreading Koshi uniquely because "Rels is scum". Apart from that he gave 0 reason as to why I'm scum.
Scum scum scum