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On January 09 2016 16:54 Eden1892 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 12:57 Koshi wrote:
##vote: Nooniansoong
I got reasons. But they are "terrible". I am also extremely tired so I can't promise I will remember them. But I think he might be biggest shot on mafia. This is really out of the blue to me. noonian has posted literal nothing. Pretty sure you won't answer this until you wake up, and I hope you remember them, because I want to know them, so you're gonna need to tell me to the best of your recollection.
I actually think that it would be very strange for him to 'design' this plan as a mafia alignment.
Best case scenario he gets people to critically reread Noon's filter which, as you said, is practically nothing.
It seems more intuitively correct if he's town and just wants to throw out a read.
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I think I caught up on everything that matters.
Needless to say I'm not feeling very good about slOosh. The early posting was rather directionless in my opinion (or at least, the direction was difficult to discern, where I think normally it shouldn't be) -- I for sure don't get the attempt to discern whether or not GGTemplar (I'm not capitalizing all that shit and I'm not sorry for it) is scum or nervous town, since I don't really see any clear criterion that would help distinguish the two, and certainly nothing that would arise from the softball slOosh lobbed at GG early. Just felt like there was a lot of air masquerading as ink in the first two-thirds of the filter.
slOosh picks it up a bit and gets somewhat more concrete in the accusation of Koshi, but I don't like how uninteractive the accusation is. When I saw Koshi had scumread noonian, I was perplexed as well, but my instinct wasn't "kill this man," it was "ask him wtf he's talking about." slOosh's reaction seemed more like "I can make this guy look really bad with this."
In fact while I'm at it:
Koshi spends half his posts talking about some setup fluff.
What's scummy about "setup fluff"? It gets the right juices flowing in my brain when I start a new game, and discussion tends to out easy townreads like GiygaS that wouldn't otherwise arise.
Koshi spends the other half of his posts repeating the same post, telling me (his scum read), why I am scum, instead of telling others.
What does this mean? Don't get what's suspicious about him talking to you about his suspicions of you, so please quote something more specific to illustrate where this is more malevolent than you make it sound here.
Koshi leaves the thread by placing a vote on someone other than me, without giving reasons, and also claims that they are best chance of being mafia.
So why didn't you ask him more about it and find out his answer? You kinda react to it, but it's not in a way that looks like you're suspicious of him for suspecting noonian. If anything you're supplying reasoning for him to suspect noonian (saying noonian had a weird exit to the thread). It sounds like you agree with the read! But then you vote Koshi for it?
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On January 09 2016 17:01 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 16:54 Eden1892 wrote:On January 09 2016 12:57 Koshi wrote:
##vote: Nooniansoong
I got reasons. But they are "terrible". I am also extremely tired so I can't promise I will remember them. But I think he might be biggest shot on mafia. This is really out of the blue to me. noonian has posted literal nothing. Pretty sure you won't answer this until you wake up, and I hope you remember them, because I want to know them, so you're gonna need to tell me to the best of your recollection. I actually think that it would be very strange for him to 'design' this plan as a mafia alignment. Best case scenario he gets people to critically reread Noon's filter which, as you said, is practically nothing. It seems more intuitively correct if he's town and just wants to throw out a read.
I mean, I can get that he might just randomly post something as mafia without thinking it through. Mafia do that all the time, even smart mafia. ((Especially potato mafia, as Koshi can sometimes be. Much love Koshi!))
But we can't tell that from his post. Which makes the correct line of response to talk to Koshi about it and figure out wtf he's talking about.
Not just try to help supply the reasoning for Koshi, and then scumread Koshi for making the post, as slOosh did.
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On January 09 2016 11:46 Tubesock wrote:
Is this going to be another game where people get towned for dumb tells or not reading the OP?
GGTemp, I also wonder what you meant when you said in that first paragraph. Irrelevant or not.
On January 09 2016 12:07 Tubesock wrote:
gurss I never liked the too stupid/scummy to be scum type reads. Meh
This was also a weird sequence of posts that I'd hate to have buried in all the discussion about slOosh and Koshi.
Like... why even bring this up? What triggered the thought if, as Tubesock says, "no one" got townread for dumb tells/etc.? I mean, I get it, I hate 'em too, but I still just went "what the hell?" when these posts came up, because it didn't look like that was happening. So I'm wondering what made Tubesock say this.
Tubesock why did you say this?
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On January 09 2016 16:51 Eden1892 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 16:34 darthfoley wrote:
I'm also voting Koshi as it stands. The more I look at his posts, the less helpful they seem to the Town.
##Vote: Koshi What is unhelpful about Koshi's posts in your own words? As they seem less helpful the more you look at them, I expect that you will be able to explain this pretty easily for this potato townie questioning you.
Well, originally I thought that the conversation's direction regarding sloosh was pretty productive. It got him talking, and also gave out a decent amount of info to sift through, which you've courteously done. Out of all the active players so far, I think rayne has been the most town; his posts are well thought out and his questions are inquisitive. So, I looked at Koshi closer because he was one of the adamant Sloosh scum posters next to rayne.
For me, I am mainly am just confused as to why he's been reluctant to back off Sloosh after saying he wouldn't target active townspeople on day 1. Maybe he strictly means he won't vote for active townspeople but still target them in discussion, though his grilling of Sloosh followed by a pivot towards a poster with no history seems out of place and too random for my liking. He cites "terrible" reasons that he probably won't remember in the morning, which basically provides no information about anything at all. Why couldn't he include at least an outline of something relevant?
I'm unclear on Sloosh, because some of his questioning lacks a clear direction and looks kind of filler. I think Giygas is town as of now. Your point on his intuitive search for more info at the start of the game re game setup is an angle I hadn't thought of.
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On January 09 2016 16:58 darthfoley wrote:
I like this Eden fellow, so crisply formatted
What a charming young... man? woman? whatever.
Nice to talk to you too.
I think I asked you something. I for sure meant to, whether or not I actually did, and you should answer that so as to receive more crisply-formatted posts from yours truly.
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ignore that. you did in fact answer as i was asking. charming young (wo)man indeed
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On January 09 2016 17:13 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 16:51 Eden1892 wrote:On January 09 2016 16:34 darthfoley wrote:
I'm also voting Koshi as it stands. The more I look at his posts, the less helpful they seem to the Town.
##Vote: Koshi What is unhelpful about Koshi's posts in your own words? As they seem less helpful the more you look at them, I expect that you will be able to explain this pretty easily for this potato townie questioning you. Well, originally I thought that the conversation's direction regarding sloosh was pretty productive. It got him talking, and also gave out a decent amount of info to sift through, which you've courteously done. Out of all the active players so far, I think rayne has been the most town; his posts are well thought out and his questions are inquisitive. So, I looked at Koshi closer because he was one of the adamant Sloosh scum posters next to rayne. For me, I am mainly am just confused as to why he's been reluctant to back off Sloosh after saying he wouldn't target active townspeople on day 1. Maybe he strictly means he won't vote for active townspeople but still target them in discussion, though his grilling of Sloosh followed by a pivot towards a poster with no history seems out of place and too random for my liking. He cites "terrible" reasons that he probably won't remember in the morning, which basically provides no information about anything at all. Why couldn't he include at least an outline of something relevant? I'm unclear on Sloosh, because some of his questioning lacks a clear direction and looks kind of filler. I think Giygas is town as of now. Your point on his intuitive search for more info at the start of the game re game setup is an angle I hadn't thought of.
A counterquestion. Why should Koshi be reluctant to back off? Just because he said he wouldn't lynch active players?
Most pushes this early in day 1 don't lead to lynching the people being pushed. I would even go as far as to say that if your early pushes are engineered to lynch people, you're doing it wrong. The point of putting other players' feet to the fire early is to force them to make substantive statements about the game state. This is helpful regardless of whether the player is town or mafia, active or inactive, yada yada.
I agree it's a bit bizarre that he pivoted over to noonian and doesn't post anything. Not leaving any reasons for it is, indeed unhelpful.
But you said this:
I'm also voting Koshi as it stands. The more I look at his posts, the less helpful they seem to the Town.
This sounds to me more like an indictment of his entire posting history, not just his admittedly bordering-on-useless "vote/push" post.
You're not telling me that of all the posts Koshi has made this day, the whole body of work is unhelpful due to this one post at the end, are you?
If you are, forgive me for finding it uncompelling. I think Koshi's been of at least moderate use in generating discussion. I think his pressure on slOosh was constructive, and I would certainly not call the body of work unhelpful. You're going to have to do better than just handwave the whole thing as unhelpful.
Maybe cite something specific for me outside of the noonian vote? (Or if you have nothing else, then please elaborate as to why that invalidated the rest of his posting history this game.)
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On January 09 2016 17:21 raynpelikoneet wrote:
boo to yourself eden
You do read what I say! 
I am curious why you and slOosh seemed to just mutually drop your conversation about your divergent reads on GiygaS. Weren't you a little curious why slOosh could read the same thing you did and conclude the exact opposite thing about GiygaS's alignment?
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On January 09 2016 17:20 Eden1892 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 17:13 darthfoley wrote:On January 09 2016 16:51 Eden1892 wrote:On January 09 2016 16:34 darthfoley wrote:
I'm also voting Koshi as it stands. The more I look at his posts, the less helpful they seem to the Town.
##Vote: Koshi What is unhelpful about Koshi's posts in your own words? As they seem less helpful the more you look at them, I expect that you will be able to explain this pretty easily for this potato townie questioning you. Well, originally I thought that the conversation's direction regarding sloosh was pretty productive. It got him talking, and also gave out a decent amount of info to sift through, which you've courteously done. Out of all the active players so far, I think rayne has been the most town; his posts are well thought out and his questions are inquisitive. So, I looked at Koshi closer because he was one of the adamant Sloosh scum posters next to rayne. For me, I am mainly am just confused as to why he's been reluctant to back off Sloosh after saying he wouldn't target active townspeople on day 1. Maybe he strictly means he won't vote for active townspeople but still target them in discussion, though his grilling of Sloosh followed by a pivot towards a poster with no history seems out of place and too random for my liking. He cites "terrible" reasons that he probably won't remember in the morning, which basically provides no information about anything at all. Why couldn't he include at least an outline of something relevant? I'm unclear on Sloosh, because some of his questioning lacks a clear direction and looks kind of filler. I think Giygas is town as of now. Your point on his intuitive search for more info at the start of the game re game setup is an angle I hadn't thought of. A counterquestion. Why should Koshi be reluctant to back off? Just because he said he wouldn't lynch active players? Most pushes this early in day 1 don't lead to lynching the people being pushed. I would even go as far as to say that if your early pushes are engineered to lynch people, you're doing it wrong. The point of putting other players' feet to the fire early is to force them to make substantive statements about the game state. This is helpful regardless of whether the player is town or mafia, active or inactive, yada yada. I agree it's a bit bizarre that he pivoted over to noonian and doesn't post anything. Not leaving any reasons for it is, indeed unhelpful. But you said this: Show nested quote +I'm also voting Koshi as it stands. The more I look at his posts, the less helpful they seem to the Town. This sounds to me more like an indictment of his entire posting history, not just his admittedly bordering-on-useless "vote/push" post. You're not telling me that of all the posts Koshi has made this day, the whole body of work is unhelpful due to this one post at the end, are you? If you are, forgive me for finding it uncompelling. I think Koshi's been of at least moderate use in generating discussion. I think his pressure on slOosh was constructive, and I would certainly not call the body of work unhelpful. You're going to have to do better than just handwave the whole thing as unhelpful. Maybe cite something specific for me outside of the noonian vote? (Or if you have nothing else, then please elaborate as to why that invalidated the rest of his posting history this game.)
Meh, i'm starting to see why there are newbie mafia games run lol. It was a bit too shallow to vote on Koshi given the circumstances. The more I think about it, the more I do see the utility of his grilling of Sloosh near the start. It's true that he doesn't have to back off a scum read, especially because as you said, lots of people get grilled day 1 and it doesn't necessarily mean it's aimed at a lynch. I was under the impression that Koshi actually scum reads Sloosh, although it's useful info either way.
The more reflective I am of the Koshi v Sloosh dynamic, the more I realize that I can't let my frustration of being kind of clueless make me jump to hasty conclusions. At this point, I can't constructively add much until Koshi explains his Noon read imo.
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Although i wanna ask you something slOosh:
I understand the townie motive on the "makes sense" thingy Eden is questioning you about (although you can probably answer him on it yourself). What i don't understand is the following:
- You scumread GiygaS
- You ask me why i townread him.
- I tell you why i townread him.
- You say it makes sense but don't agree with the conclusion. (although you only state that later on, but it happens here)
- I ask you for your reads.
- You tell me one of the people who doesn't stand out is GiygaS
Now how do the red and the green part go together?
There should be nothing inbetween that makes you change your mind on GiygaS from "scum" --> "doesn't stand out" (no, the bolded part doesn't do that as you literally state that you don't agree with me).
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On January 09 2016 17:27 Eden1892 wrote:You do read what I say! I am curious why you and slOosh seemed to just mutually drop your conversation about your divergent reads on GiygaS. Weren't you a little curious why slOosh could read the same thing you did and conclude the exact opposite thing about GiygaS's alignment?
There is no reason for me to answer this before slOosh does.
I will after that. I will just say that coming to opposite conclusion (which is btw pretty strong wording here -- since i literally stated my read is "tentative") and concluding that the other person makes sense are not mutually exclusive.
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On January 09 2016 17:13 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 16:51 Eden1892 wrote:On January 09 2016 16:34 darthfoley wrote:
I'm also voting Koshi as it stands. The more I look at his posts, the less helpful they seem to the Town.
##Vote: Koshi What is unhelpful about Koshi's posts in your own words? As they seem less helpful the more you look at them, I expect that you will be able to explain this pretty easily for this potato townie questioning you. Well, originally I thought that the conversation's direction regarding sloosh was pretty productive. It got him talking, and also gave out a decent amount of info to sift through, which you've courteously done. Out of all the active players so far, I think rayne has been the most town; his posts are well thought out and his questions are inquisitive. So, I looked at Koshi closer because he was one of the adamant Sloosh scum posters next to rayne. For me, I am mainly am just confused as to why he's been reluctant to back off Sloosh after saying he wouldn't target active townspeople on day 1. Maybe he strictly means he won't vote for active townspeople but still target them in discussion, though his grilling of Sloosh followed by a pivot towards a poster with no history seems out of place and too random for my liking. He cites "terrible" reasons that he probably won't remember in the morning, which basically provides no information about anything at all. Why couldn't he include at least an outline of something relevant? I'm unclear on Sloosh, because some of his questioning lacks a clear direction and looks kind of filler. I think Giygas is town as of now. Your point on his intuitive search for more info at the start of the game re game setup is an angle I hadn't thought of.
You answer your bolded text here in the next sentence. There is literally zero reason to pressure inactive people because they don't answer and there is nothing to pressure them for...
And Koshi probably reads Noonian mafia because Noonian is currently in two games and he is active in the other game. I can't go more into the reasoning since talking about ongoing games is forbidden but regardless of Noonian's alignment in the other game Koshi's logic makes sense, although i do not agree with it (see what i did there Eden ).
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On January 09 2016 17:33 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 17:27 Eden1892 wrote:On January 09 2016 17:21 raynpelikoneet wrote:
boo to yourself eden You do read what I say! I am curious why you and slOosh seemed to just mutually drop your conversation about your divergent reads on GiygaS. Weren't you a little curious why slOosh could read the same thing you did and conclude the exact opposite thing about GiygaS's alignment? There is no reason for me to answer this before slOosh does. I will after that. I will just say that coming to opposite conclusion (which is btw pretty strong wording here -- since i literally stated my read is "tentative") and concluding that the other person makes sense are not mutually exclusive.
They aren't exclusive, I just figured you might still be curious enough to ask.
But you are right, I would much rather hear slOosh's answer on this first.
On January 09 2016 17:29 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 17:20 Eden1892 wrote:On January 09 2016 17:13 darthfoley wrote:On January 09 2016 16:51 Eden1892 wrote:On January 09 2016 16:34 darthfoley wrote:
I'm also voting Koshi as it stands. The more I look at his posts, the less helpful they seem to the Town.
##Vote: Koshi What is unhelpful about Koshi's posts in your own words? As they seem less helpful the more you look at them, I expect that you will be able to explain this pretty easily for this potato townie questioning you. Well, originally I thought that the conversation's direction regarding sloosh was pretty productive. It got him talking, and also gave out a decent amount of info to sift through, which you've courteously done. Out of all the active players so far, I think rayne has been the most town; his posts are well thought out and his questions are inquisitive. So, I looked at Koshi closer because he was one of the adamant Sloosh scum posters next to rayne. For me, I am mainly am just confused as to why he's been reluctant to back off Sloosh after saying he wouldn't target active townspeople on day 1. Maybe he strictly means he won't vote for active townspeople but still target them in discussion, though his grilling of Sloosh followed by a pivot towards a poster with no history seems out of place and too random for my liking. He cites "terrible" reasons that he probably won't remember in the morning, which basically provides no information about anything at all. Why couldn't he include at least an outline of something relevant? I'm unclear on Sloosh, because some of his questioning lacks a clear direction and looks kind of filler. I think Giygas is town as of now. Your point on his intuitive search for more info at the start of the game re game setup is an angle I hadn't thought of. A counterquestion. Why should Koshi be reluctant to back off? Just because he said he wouldn't lynch active players? Most pushes this early in day 1 don't lead to lynching the people being pushed. I would even go as far as to say that if your early pushes are engineered to lynch people, you're doing it wrong. The point of putting other players' feet to the fire early is to force them to make substantive statements about the game state. This is helpful regardless of whether the player is town or mafia, active or inactive, yada yada. I agree it's a bit bizarre that he pivoted over to noonian and doesn't post anything. Not leaving any reasons for it is, indeed unhelpful. But you said this: I'm also voting Koshi as it stands. The more I look at his posts, the less helpful they seem to the Town. This sounds to me more like an indictment of his entire posting history, not just his admittedly bordering-on-useless "vote/push" post. You're not telling me that of all the posts Koshi has made this day, the whole body of work is unhelpful due to this one post at the end, are you? If you are, forgive me for finding it uncompelling. I think Koshi's been of at least moderate use in generating discussion. I think his pressure on slOosh was constructive, and I would certainly not call the body of work unhelpful. You're going to have to do better than just handwave the whole thing as unhelpful. Maybe cite something specific for me outside of the noonian vote? (Or if you have nothing else, then please elaborate as to why that invalidated the rest of his posting history this game.) Meh, i'm starting to see why there are newbie mafia games run lol. It was a bit too shallow to vote on Koshi given the circumstances. The more I think about it, the more I do see the utility of his grilling of Sloosh near the start. It's true that he doesn't have to back off a scum read, especially because as you said, lots of people get grilled day 1 and it doesn't necessarily mean it's aimed at a lynch. I was under the impression that Koshi actually scum reads Sloosh, although it's useful info either way. The more reflective I am of the Koshi v Sloosh dynamic, the more I realize that I can't let my frustration of being kind of clueless make me jump to hasty conclusions. At this point, I can't constructively add much until Koshi explains his Noon read imo.
I don't understand what was shallow about voting Koshi there. If your takeaway from my questions was "you are wrong for voting Koshi," that takeaway isn't the one I intended to convey.
The takeaway was "I don't understand why you are voting Koshi" -- and you're essentially telling me you don't have much to add to the discussion until Koshi explains his read.
But... you still had a reason for saying that Koshi's posts were unhelpful. After all, unless you intend to tell me your statement that "The more I look at his posts, the less helpful they seem to the Town." was made up, something you read made you think this.
I just want to know what that something is.
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Two things just for the sake of this thread:
- darthfoley you are doing fine. there is no need for joining NSM games first. Just explain yourself as clearly as you can. Not all people think the same way but if you are town you have a reasonable explanation behind what you say. It should be enough for smart people to townread you in case you're town. "wow i am so bad" won't get you anywhere nor does playing the newbie card.
- Eden can you please consolidate your posts? I mean like the use less words for the stuff you say. You don't need to say every single thing that comes to your mind. For example your first post about your reads on me and GiygaS could probably be said in about 20 words, but instead it's a massive wall of text i now regret i read.. Also writing many words does not get you townread, not for me, and shouldn't for anyone else either.
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I will babble as loquaciously as I want as it's my God-given right as an American God DAMN it.
((Yeah, sure, I'll work on it.))
Also writing many words does not get you townread, not for me, and shouldn't for anyone else either.
lol
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whoops I meant to put actual text after lol. I suck at this consolidating thing and I'm a little sorry.
If anybody tr's me for posting lots of words, and not for the quality of those words, then they're probably scum or at least lazy town who should be accused to push them into playing better.
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Eden:
GiygaS - town
slOosh - scum
mderg - town
Nooniansoong - town
boxerfred - null
Tubesock - scum
Koshi - town
VayneAuthority - town
GGTeMpLaR - null
Kmatt - null
Is there anything we disagree here?
I purposely left darthfoley out because you are questioning him and i don't wanna affect that regardless of my read on him.
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Fuck it GGTemplar can be town for now but only because i think slOosh is scum.
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EPT
