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:-\
Anyway, now catching up. Feel free to post any questions in the thread.
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On December 08 2015 04:51 disformation wrote:I often refer to MoosyDoosy as cupcake and/or sweetheart. You know because I really enjoy playing with him. + Show Spoiler +Will make my use of nicknames for the nicknames of players more distinct in the future.
edited for clarity.
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On December 08 2015 03:46 disformation wrote:NSM12 up to day 2: very similar to this. Starting D2 he starts to show a bit of life in his posts when talking with/to HtS and his scum reads. NSM14 he also sounds very similar to here... well besides this thing: Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 09:05 Fidei86 wrote:On September 08 2015 08:58 MoosyDoosy wrote:
eh. i still think it's copcake + fidei with someone else but i might be getting too tunneled. fidei comes off looking worse from this. BEFORE I GO TO BED I WANT TO POINT OUT IN ALL CAPITALS THAT MOOSY HAS NEITHER OF THE CLAIMED F****** DOCTORS IN HIS F****** SCUM LIST. LIKE IT MIGHT NOT BE EITHER OF THEM? Are you kidding me with this shit? But playing with cupcake can be rather rage inducing. So I understand. But the overwhelming amount of posts sounds like this game. So I guess that is just his default tone and dub him Mr. Roboto. Will look at his filter from this game more closely now.
Ok thanks. He actually played a scum game: season of the witch 2. Will check it and the town games you read to compare the tone.
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Sry, this will probably end up being a rant on Fidei86's filter.
Hm so while he was suspicious on HtS at the start he then moves to:
On December 03 2015 04:08 Fidei86 wrote:
Town
Shining - He was winning townie plaudits for his fight with Palmar, but rather than carry it on (and continuing to crap up the thread) he stopped (or at least tried to) and gave a good read post at #229. I like his read on dis, which I agree with. He asks Kush and Moosy to do more, at a stage where the better Mafia play would have been to ignore them and let town coalesce towards a "lynch all idiots" lynch. (Disclaimer: I previously called him out for not stopping the fight, but a re-read of his filter shows he was trying to stop it but Palmar wouldn't let it go.)
Trfel - Rels is right, for someone with over 3k posts Trfel sure apologises a lot. He seems to have some sort of reason for his early LS read, which I don't really care about. I actually like is read on Rels "why is he just throwing shit everywhere." Maybe town side of null. His later posts show quite nuanced reasoning. Moved to town for now, otherwise mostly everyone would be null
Dis - he and Trfel are playing similarly in my view. Both reading the thread, giving thoughts relatively fearlessly. Nothing that particularly jumps out as scummy. Lean read.
Null
Damdred - underwhelmed by his reads, which seem to mostly have been of Shining. Need to filter dive. No sense in lynching today.
Damdred - whole filter is super underwhelming. Says he has town reads, but then just gives me and Shining without and further explanation. Lacklustre but posts come off as condescending. Scum side of null but wouldn't lynch yet.
HTS - I am scared of a Mafia Dani, and that is probably colouring my read of her. One thing I'm not sure of is why she voted for DYH having just excoriated kush for his dumbass post about voting for Rels.
Palmar - his entire first act was fighting with Shining. He made his point, and I agreed with it. But he kept pushing and pushing beyond when it was reasonable. I also didn't like that he called my first post "fine" and "null" but at another point said I was a "tow read". Says he doesn't want to lynch into me, then later says I'd be an okay lynch? Huh? I had him in Mafia, but his last few reads on Damdred and
Rels - I'm all over the place on Rels. I've made the point that Mafia Rels tends to buddy harder than he is here. But in this game he seems to be talking in complete parallel to the thread, raising points others aren't but not engaging in the same sort of manner I would expect from a town Rels. But I actually really like his DYH read and vote.
Mafia
LS - his entry list was all nulls ("I need more time on Moosy" -- no shit!) and basic basic points that display no particular thought. #431 says the game is hard but hasn't really given a read on anyone? O
Useless
Kush - he is going to have to do a lot to get back from "not changing my Rels vote even though he might be town because changing votes is hard"
Moosy - only sensible post is pushing Shining on his read of me. When he'd explained it like 8 times and I'd only made one post.
DYH - Lots of town-reads and afk promises. Hardly encouraging. Was not really a fan of his Trfel read.
Onegu. It's O-word dude. Hands up if you're surprised.
I have a bit of trouble following his LS progression after that.
Like he thinks LS is scum and then votes kush because kush's progression on LS (who he thinks is scum) is scummy?
N1 he also moves back to HtS...
On December 04 2015 08:39 Fidei86 wrote:
I'm not scum. One thing I was thinking is that I actually pinged Dani out a while ago for the same sort of thing Alex is saying now. That's not to say that scum can't bus a little ... Obviously I didn't push Dani that hard. But if Alex agreed with my reasoning, surely it makes me unlikely to be her scum buddy?
Also if I was scum I would 100% have shot Dani. Gameplay regardless, scum Fidei shoots HTS n1 every game. Every time. So there's that.
Bold part for smiles. 
After that he talks a bit about a possible LS/HtS team. Seems a bit focused on certain persons. But he admitted to that earlier.
His probing of NM seems town.
On December 04 2015 23:43 Fidei86 wrote:
I am utterly convinced that LS is Mafia. I am willing to accept that Dani is Mafia, although if she flips town we lynch Alex (possibly before LS).
But I will have time this weekend to read some of the outliers (dis might lynch me if I don't at least read DYH again).
On December 05 2015 00:20 Fidei86 wrote:
So LS, your scum team is me, DYH and Dani. Except scumming DYH is easy because he has been a low volume poster, scumming Dani is easy because Alex, and scumming me is easy because of OMGUS? All of your reasons for town reading people are "they are towny", or a call back to a past game.
This is a really poorly thought through list that shows no conviction and no intention to solve. LS is Mafia.
Does he vote LS?
+ Show Spoiler +
On December 05 2015 00:25 Fidei86 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 00:23 LightningStrike wrote:
BTW James you should check my read progression of DYH? I will. I'll also read DYH's filter this evening. Work is slow today, so I've been able to play a lot of Mafia, but it's all phone posting.
Still waiting.
On December 08 2015 00:40 Fidei86 wrote:
Gun to my head, on a pure gut read basis, I think the Mafia is likely 2 of LS, Disfo and NM. LS and NM I've discussed. Disfo is something I've been mulling for a while, and it's mostly because I feel all of his posts have tried to look useful but actually haven't been. (Filter dives to follow. I mean it this time).
Not sure how "quite a while" translates to "my last mention of him is like super early D2 with a town read", but at least he is looking at more ppl than HtS,NM,LS and Trfel now.
So here we have a bunch of trees.
Let mediate a bit on the forest though.
Yes he was suspicious of HtS early on. Did he push her hard? No.
He seemed very sure about LS being scum. Did he push him? No. Does he vote him? No.
He is very focused on a small group on people. Maybe trying to pick one out of the misslynch list? The reads on those people are also kinda constant. Like the scum read on LS.
Promised to look at DYH, did play dota instead.
While I like his interactions with NM, interactions with other ppl seem to lack a bit.
Did he actually push anyone so far?
So I'd say his desire to solve the game doesn't seem to be very present. Possible vote candidate.
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On December 07 2015 09:26 disformation wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2015 09:10 NocturneMage wrote:
wait, disformation second half of your last post I think you are completely misunderstanding.
first quote - that was nothing to do with the game - that was real life. he wasn't trying to get a read on me I don't think he was just trying to see if hts was being manipulative with rl, the answer is no (even if she flipped scum, that is just hts being hts honestly I cited examples of her doing this as town too) and aside that there were other reasons to scumread her
second quote, it was a misunderstanding. I was pinging trfel but my response came right after fidei's quote so fidei just assumed I was talking to him. but I think I can see why you came to that conclusion with those two sentences in the last quote. Ah, damn. Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. Also for what it is worth, have some coloured votes: (went ahead and coloured myself green :p)
Day 1 Kushm4sta (7): Fidei86, Damdred, LS, Shining, Rels, HTS, PalmLightningStrike (4): disformation, kushm4sta, DoYouHas, Trfel Not Voting (2): MoosyDoosy, Onegu
Half the Sky (9): NocturneMage, DoYouHas, Fecalfeast, Rels, Trfel, Fidei86, Palmar, The Shining, LightningStrike DoYouHas (1): disformationNocturneMage (1): Half the Sky
So to get information from this vote cycle I will try and look at the reasons/timings for voting HtS and try to see if there are plausible bus drivers. As I outlined yesterday DYH could have been such a busdriver, but I will look at the other suspects, too.
Disinformation, did you ever explain why you were on DYH rather than HTS?
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On December 08 2015 03:49 NocturneMage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 01:58 Rels wrote:
I read fidei s filter and everybody should do that, then vote him.
He really is robotic in tone. I will check if that works as the case in his town games, but I see what Palmer meant.
His ls read seems fake. Around eod, "I would lynch him but I would rather lynch other people." After eod, "Rels and disfo are town if ls is town." Then "actually this confirmed town stuff doesn't convince me", when before eod he was not that convinced on ls to begin with. Now he's still pushing ls for ... I don't really know why.
His filter is focused on very few people. I think he's buddying me.
After Hts became the clear lynch, he didn't do anything. He was playing dota all weekend instead of being motivated to play.
Palmar s main target was fidei and he was the nk.
To everyone: please read his filter and report back. I'm marking this for reference because I am looking at this post and there are a slew of things that are throwing me off. Not because I think this post looks scummy but because there is a lot of subjectivity in this read. Tone reads are tone reads. I was taught prior to this game they are very subjective, and generally best for day 1 reads but as a strong meta read through this is day 3? it just seems weak without other evidence like voting analysis etc. or if you can tie the meta to something else. Like when he acts X, he does Y in conjunction with Z. Tie the tone to actions. Tie the tone to effects. Am I making sense? Separate from that however, I will look into the LS read. The unflipped association is really bad but townies also make unflipped association all the time. I pushed LS because he was doing dick all and only such after the fact, and most critically, he failed to push HTS when he found her end of cycle questionable. We both agreed the LS filter was complete trash through the end of day 2, so if LS's game has gotten better (to be fair I stopped reading after the hts lynch) AND if Fidei is continuing to push the lynch, then it does look really bad. I guess it comes down to what work he's put in to get his conclusions. I am putting aside LS for now based on the NKs personally. Back to James focusing on a few people, I can understand as a scum indicative, ignoring time (which can account for town not having the time), it can indicate an agenda. Because mafia need mislynches. I can get that. The same argument however can be made for DYH, but this last thing I looked at him, he doesn't seem to have a lot of time playing the game? Both were making in and out excuses, so only the NK analysis separates those two. To use another example, FF was playing Fallout 4 all weekend. But NKs don't/didn't implicate him, so... Also this term called buddying. I had recently shadowed marvellosity and I asked him a question about the difference between buddying and pocketing. And that they were both related. I didn't understand it in the context you were using it, so I looked it up. http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=BuddyingShow nested quote +Buddying is a tactic used to subconsciously become perceived as less of a threat by another player. While this is usually done by scum, Townies have been known to do this as well.
This is typically accomplished by the buddying player acting unnaturally friendly to its target, either subtly or outright. Originally, this made it so that once the buddying scum died, it implicated the victim they were acting friendly toward. In addition, by budding up to a victim, they will become less likely to want to lynch the buddying player in the first place. More recently, though, this has become used as a pre-emptive accusation against anyone who acts nicely toward another player, regardless of intent. So I look at this definition Rels, and I am trying to think of a time where Fidei acts "unnaturally friendly" towards you. Lack of scepticism? He explained using meta why he's townreading you but are you saying it's bad meta to townread you or was there another quote that you using to say he's buddying you?
I had no idea what buddying really meant. He has a lot of post either talking about me or talking to me.
What is your read on LS now then ? Cause that stuff seems to be left without a conclusion.
About the lack of time - that's why I precised I saw him on DOTA several times on the weekend. Which is exactly what he did in SOTW 2.
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On December 08 2015 05:30 disformation wrote:Sry, this will probably end up being a rant on Fidei86's filter.
Hm so while he was suspicious on HtS at the start he then moves to: Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 04:08 Fidei86 wrote:
Town
Shining - He was winning townie plaudits for his fight with Palmar, but rather than carry it on (and continuing to crap up the thread) he stopped (or at least tried to) and gave a good read post at #229. I like his read on dis, which I agree with. He asks Kush and Moosy to do more, at a stage where the better Mafia play would have been to ignore them and let town coalesce towards a "lynch all idiots" lynch. (Disclaimer: I previously called him out for not stopping the fight, but a re-read of his filter shows he was trying to stop it but Palmar wouldn't let it go.)
Trfel - Rels is right, for someone with over 3k posts Trfel sure apologises a lot. He seems to have some sort of reason for his early LS read, which I don't really care about. I actually like is read on Rels "why is he just throwing shit everywhere." Maybe town side of null. His later posts show quite nuanced reasoning. Moved to town for now, otherwise mostly everyone would be null
Dis - he and Trfel are playing similarly in my view. Both reading the thread, giving thoughts relatively fearlessly. Nothing that particularly jumps out as scummy. Lean read.
Null
Damdred - underwhelmed by his reads, which seem to mostly have been of Shining. Need to filter dive. No sense in lynching today.
Damdred - whole filter is super underwhelming. Says he has town reads, but then just gives me and Shining without and further explanation. Lacklustre but posts come off as condescending. Scum side of null but wouldn't lynch yet.
HTS - I am scared of a Mafia Dani, and that is probably colouring my read of her. One thing I'm not sure of is why she voted for DYH having just excoriated kush for his dumbass post about voting for Rels.
Palmar - his entire first act was fighting with Shining. He made his point, and I agreed with it. But he kept pushing and pushing beyond when it was reasonable. I also didn't like that he called my first post "fine" and "null" but at another point said I was a "tow read". Says he doesn't want to lynch into me, then later says I'd be an okay lynch? Huh? I had him in Mafia, but his last few reads on Damdred and
Rels - I'm all over the place on Rels. I've made the point that Mafia Rels tends to buddy harder than he is here. But in this game he seems to be talking in complete parallel to the thread, raising points others aren't but not engaging in the same sort of manner I would expect from a town Rels. But I actually really like his DYH read and vote.
Mafia
LS - his entry list was all nulls ("I need more time on Moosy" -- no shit!) and basic basic points that display no particular thought. #431 says the game is hard but hasn't really given a read on anyone? O
Useless
Kush - he is going to have to do a lot to get back from "not changing my Rels vote even though he might be town because changing votes is hard"
Moosy - only sensible post is pushing Shining on his read of me. When he'd explained it like 8 times and I'd only made one post.
DYH - Lots of town-reads and afk promises. Hardly encouraging. Was not really a fan of his Trfel read.
Onegu. It's O-word dude. Hands up if you're surprised.
I have a bit of trouble following his LS progression after that. Like he thinks LS is scum and then votes kush because kush's progression on LS (who he thinks is scum) is scummy?
N1 he also moves back to HtS... Show nested quote +On December 04 2015 08:39 Fidei86 wrote:
I'm not scum. One thing I was thinking is that I actually pinged Dani out a while ago for the same sort of thing Alex is saying now. That's not to say that scum can't bus a little ... Obviously I didn't push Dani that hard. But if Alex agreed with my reasoning, surely it makes me unlikely to be her scum buddy?
Also if I was scum I would 100% have shot Dani. Gameplay regardless, scum Fidei shoots HTS n1 every game. Every time. So there's that. Bold part for smiles. After that he talks a bit about a possible LS/HtS team. Seems a bit focused on certain persons. But he admitted to that earlier.
His probing of NM seems town.
Show nested quote +On December 04 2015 23:43 Fidei86 wrote:
I am utterly convinced that LS is Mafia. I am willing to accept that Dani is Mafia, although if she flips town we lynch Alex (possibly before LS).
But I will have time this weekend to read some of the outliers (dis might lynch me if I don't at least read DYH again). Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 00:20 Fidei86 wrote:
So LS, your scum team is me, DYH and Dani. Except scumming DYH is easy because he has been a low volume poster, scumming Dani is easy because Alex, and scumming me is easy because of OMGUS? All of your reasons for town reading people are "they are towny", or a call back to a past game.
This is a really poorly thought through list that shows no conviction and no intention to solve. LS is Mafia. Does he vote LS? + Show Spoiler +
Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 00:25 Fidei86 wrote:On December 05 2015 00:23 LightningStrike wrote:
BTW James you should check my read progression of DYH? I will. I'll also read DYH's filter this evening. Work is slow today, so I've been able to play a lot of Mafia, but it's all phone posting. Still waiting.
Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 00:40 Fidei86 wrote:
Gun to my head, on a pure gut read basis, I think the Mafia is likely 2 of LS, Disfo and NM. LS and NM I've discussed. Disfo is something I've been mulling for a while, and it's mostly because I feel all of his posts have tried to look useful but actually haven't been. (Filter dives to follow. I mean it this time). Not sure how "quite a while" translates to "my last mention of him is like super early D2 with a town read", but at least he is looking at more ppl than HtS,NM,LS and Trfel now.
So here we have a bunch of trees. Let mediate a bit on the forest though. Yes he was suspicious of HtS early on. Did he push her hard? No. He seemed very sure about LS being scum. Did he push him? No. Does he vote him? No. He is very focused on a small group on people. Maybe trying to pick one out of the misslynch list? The reads on those people are also kinda constant. Like the scum read on LS. Promised to look at DYH, did play dota instead. While I like his interactions with NM, interactions with other ppl seem to lack a bit. Did he actually push anyone so far? So I'd say his desire to solve the game doesn't seem to be very present. Possible vote candidate.
Eh, I'm not going to stand here and say that my play this game has been optimal. Plainly it hasn't been. I haven't been as active as I could have been, and I accidentally basically got our blue lynched D1.
There's one thing that screams out to me from your post. You accuse me of not voting for LS, after I post that I'm sure he's mafia. D1 I got cold feet. It was a mistake. Lots of people in the thread were talking about switching, and LS was here at least fighting his corner, while kush was AFK. It was a total spur of the moment decision, and it was wrong.
DAY 2, WE WERE LYNCHING HTS. WHO FLIPPED F'ING SCUM. AND I GAVE VERY CLEAR REASONS WHY I WOULD NEVER MOVE OFF HER. WHY WOULD I VOTE FOR SOMEONE ELSE?
Ugh. Like, your other reasons for scumming me are fine, but that one is so bogus, it makes my eyes water. On p77/83.
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On December 07 2015 22:53 disformation wrote:Hmm... yeah I think I remember you calling out HtS on D1. But here you are "only" slightly suspicious... and what is a little scum lean between good partners?  Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 21:45 Fidei86 wrote:
@Rels
I have looked over HTS' posts, and I am more okay with #209 now that I've read it a few times. There's nothing particularly objectionable in there.
At #219, I disagree with her read on the Palmar / Shining interaction. There is something very strange about Shining's progression, and HTS just skates past it.
She then at #224, #237 and #246 goes forward and then back on on Trfel. She asks Shining about people other than Palmar, but noticeably doesn't ask Palmar about people other than Shining.
I know that HTS is very much a fan of Palmar's scum play. I know that she has previously had him as a coach and that she generally speaks highly of him as a player. It is strange to me that she almost specifically avoids interacting with him, or making any comments about him. Honestly, if she can't read him, it seems like the rest of us don't have a chance.
None of the above is a guaranteed scum-tell. But I find it somewhat suspicious. Town HTS nitpicks as well, but I just always get the sense that she is going somewhere with her thoughts. That seems lacking to me. Still want to look at your whole filter and progression on HtS later tonight. The thing is: someone had to bus her. From my POV two someones have bussed HtS and I am going to find out who.
Disfo I think you fundamentally misunderstand what bussing is. Bussing is where one mafia player actively works to get HTS lynched. The only people who really worked on the HTS lynch actively were NM, DYH and me. Oh and Palmar, but he's flipped town. If any of us were mafia, that would be a bus. The fact is that it was plainly obvious that she was going to get lynched once Alex, Palmar and I basically decided it. Lots of the rest of you voted for her, but just voting for a scum is not the same as bussing. Your logic is just totally wrong here.
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On December 08 2015 05:45 Fidei86 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2015 22:53 disformation wrote:Hmm... yeah I think I remember you calling out HtS on D1. But here you are "only" slightly suspicious... and what is a little scum lean between good partners? On December 01 2015 21:45 Fidei86 wrote:
@Rels
I have looked over HTS' posts, and I am more okay with #209 now that I've read it a few times. There's nothing particularly objectionable in there.
At #219, I disagree with her read on the Palmar / Shining interaction. There is something very strange about Shining's progression, and HTS just skates past it.
She then at #224, #237 and #246 goes forward and then back on on Trfel. She asks Shining about people other than Palmar, but noticeably doesn't ask Palmar about people other than Shining.
I know that HTS is very much a fan of Palmar's scum play. I know that she has previously had him as a coach and that she generally speaks highly of him as a player. It is strange to me that she almost specifically avoids interacting with him, or making any comments about him. Honestly, if she can't read him, it seems like the rest of us don't have a chance.
None of the above is a guaranteed scum-tell. But I find it somewhat suspicious. Town HTS nitpicks as well, but I just always get the sense that she is going somewhere with her thoughts. That seems lacking to me. Still want to look at your whole filter and progression on HtS later tonight. The thing is: someone had to bus her. From my POV two someones have bussed HtS and I am going to find out who. Disfo I think you fundamentally misunderstand what bussing is. Bussing is where one mafia player actively works to get HTS lynched. The only people who really worked on the HTS lynch actively were NM, DYH and me. Oh and Palmar, but he's flipped town. If any of us were mafia, that would be a bus. The fact is that it was plainly obvious that she was going to get lynched once Alex, Palmar and I basically decided it. Lots of the rest of you voted for her, but just voting for a scum is not the same as bussing. Your logic is just totally wrong here.
Oh? Okay, I indeed thought that voting for a scum mate is bussing.
Thanks for the clarification.
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On December 08 2015 05:45 Fidei86 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2015 22:53 disformation wrote:Hmm... yeah I think I remember you calling out HtS on D1. But here you are "only" slightly suspicious... and what is a little scum lean between good partners? On December 01 2015 21:45 Fidei86 wrote:
@Rels
I have looked over HTS' posts, and I am more okay with #209 now that I've read it a few times. There's nothing particularly objectionable in there.
At #219, I disagree with her read on the Palmar / Shining interaction. There is something very strange about Shining's progression, and HTS just skates past it.
She then at #224, #237 and #246 goes forward and then back on on Trfel. She asks Shining about people other than Palmar, but noticeably doesn't ask Palmar about people other than Shining.
I know that HTS is very much a fan of Palmar's scum play. I know that she has previously had him as a coach and that she generally speaks highly of him as a player. It is strange to me that she almost specifically avoids interacting with him, or making any comments about him. Honestly, if she can't read him, it seems like the rest of us don't have a chance.
None of the above is a guaranteed scum-tell. But I find it somewhat suspicious. Town HTS nitpicks as well, but I just always get the sense that she is going somewhere with her thoughts. That seems lacking to me. Still want to look at your whole filter and progression on HtS later tonight. The thing is: someone had to bus her. From my POV two someones have bussed HtS and I am going to find out who. Disfo I think you fundamentally misunderstand what bussing is. Bussing is where one mafia player actively works to get HTS lynched. The only people who really worked on the HTS lynch actively were NM, DYH and me. Oh and Palmar, but he's flipped town. If any of us were mafia, that would be a bus. The fact is that it was plainly obvious that she was going to get lynched once Alex, Palmar and I basically decided it. Lots of the rest of you voted for her, but just voting for a scum is not the same as bussing. Your logic is just totally wrong here.
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ugh hold on, that's not what I meant to do
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On December 08 2015 04:00 NocturneMage wrote:
I refute all these posts and particularly the basis for this scumreads based on how I replaced into the game, caught up, towncircled and adjusted reads (and I'm still doing so!!!!), and then he's still on his merry way saying I'm mafia? He uses his own metrics to make these assumptions. I'm on page 8/10 of his filter, he gives two town reads on dyh/ls, and then goes back to just seeing me as public enemy #1.
focusing on absolutely no one else except me and using explanations that don't make me mafia through several points I've refuted him on based on comparison of his play to last game, his approach to me this game, his refusal to see how I process through a town lens, including any reasoning for my change in tone, which I have explained.
he pulled the same shit last game as mafia, stuff that may not be alignment indicative and exclusive scum lens here.
and this all, plus the NKs....
Just kill Trfel.
I know there is mafia #3, I will follow up on James, and I won't ignore a third mafia but just honestly kill Trfel.
Bloody hell.
Good stuff on Trfel. Particulary, I didn't understand his change of heart just because of the Damdred NK (Damdred townread NM so he wuold not NK him!) while at the same time saying scum!Shining could have killed Damdred before Damdred realized he's scum. He tried to explain it at first, then said it was a mistake. Let me see if I can find the posts.
On December 05 2015 03:00 Trfel wrote:
This is simply wrong. Damdred said that he wasn't townreading NocturneMage, but he was clearly resistant to the lynch (as he showed on Day 1). And again, scum doesn't care to keep someone who is townreading them alive if that mafia is going to live for a few days.
Like, if The Shining is mafia, he knew that he probably wasn't going to die for a day or two, and that's a lot that could potentially change Damdred's read. Damdred's townread doesn't really mean much and it's okay to kill Damdred, and there's fear that Damdred could figure it out.
But NocturneMage was at a high chance of getting lynched the very next day, in which case Damdred's read on him at that very moment (null being better than everyone else's read, and Damdred had a lot of influence, and wouldn't lynch a null read) would be really valuable. Basically, NocturneMage would just have to stay null or look a little better and Damdred would likely try to stop the lynch.
I already said that this has too many variables and I'm unable to accurately draw a conclusion from the night kill. I believe the reasons by my earlier analysis but I no longer trust the conclusion. If you think I'm scum for being wrong, you should read any one of my town games, because I'm wrong a whole darn lot.
Like this is really false. He's first saying he's right that you would not kill Damdred, as Damdred's read would help you survive; when Damdred said he found Moosy's filter NAI and would evaluate you, which is super scary for a scum to hear.
Then he's using a kinda opposite reasonning on Shining.
Finally, he admits being wrong, which defeats the whole point of this wall of text. There is only one reason Trfel made this post: defend himself against my accusation. He certainly didn't make it to push his reasonning, since he admits at the end his reasonning was wrong.
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On December 08 2015 05:45 Fidei86 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2015 22:53 disformation wrote:Hmm... yeah I think I remember you calling out HtS on D1. But here you are "only" slightly suspicious... and what is a little scum lean between good partners? On December 01 2015 21:45 Fidei86 wrote:
@Rels
I have looked over HTS' posts, and I am more okay with #209 now that I've read it a few times. There's nothing particularly objectionable in there.
At #219, I disagree with her read on the Palmar / Shining interaction. There is something very strange about Shining's progression, and HTS just skates past it.
She then at #224, #237 and #246 goes forward and then back on on Trfel. She asks Shining about people other than Palmar, but noticeably doesn't ask Palmar about people other than Shining.
I know that HTS is very much a fan of Palmar's scum play. I know that she has previously had him as a coach and that she generally speaks highly of him as a player. It is strange to me that she almost specifically avoids interacting with him, or making any comments about him. Honestly, if she can't read him, it seems like the rest of us don't have a chance.
None of the above is a guaranteed scum-tell. But I find it somewhat suspicious. Town HTS nitpicks as well, but I just always get the sense that she is going somewhere with her thoughts. That seems lacking to me. Still want to look at your whole filter and progression on HtS later tonight. The thing is: someone had to bus her. From my POV two someones have bussed HtS and I am going to find out who. Disfo I think you fundamentally misunderstand what bussing is. Bussing is where one mafia player actively works to get HTS lynched. The only people who really worked on the HTS lynch actively were NM, DYH and me. Oh and Palmar, but he's flipped town. If any of us were mafia, that would be a bus. The fact is that it was plainly obvious that she was going to get lynched once Alex, Palmar and I basically decided it. Lots of the rest of you voted for her, but just voting for a scum is not the same as bussing. Your logic is just totally wrong here.
I actually thought bussing was just voting as well, didn't matter how active the person was tbh.
In newbie 13, I didn't actively work to get my partner lynched, in fact when it was clear he was getting lynched, I tagged on right at the end - but was accused (correctly) of bussing my teammate because I did so at the end and did dick all to solve towards his lynch.
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On December 08 2015 05:39 Fidei86 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 05:30 disformation wrote:Sry, this will probably end up being a rant on Fidei86's filter.
Hm so while he was suspicious on HtS at the start he then moves to: On December 03 2015 04:08 Fidei86 wrote:
Town
Shining - He was winning townie plaudits for his fight with Palmar, but rather than carry it on (and continuing to crap up the thread) he stopped (or at least tried to) and gave a good read post at #229. I like his read on dis, which I agree with. He asks Kush and Moosy to do more, at a stage where the better Mafia play would have been to ignore them and let town coalesce towards a "lynch all idiots" lynch. (Disclaimer: I previously called him out for not stopping the fight, but a re-read of his filter shows he was trying to stop it but Palmar wouldn't let it go.)
Trfel - Rels is right, for someone with over 3k posts Trfel sure apologises a lot. He seems to have some sort of reason for his early LS read, which I don't really care about. I actually like is read on Rels "why is he just throwing shit everywhere." Maybe town side of null. His later posts show quite nuanced reasoning. Moved to town for now, otherwise mostly everyone would be null
Dis - he and Trfel are playing similarly in my view. Both reading the thread, giving thoughts relatively fearlessly. Nothing that particularly jumps out as scummy. Lean read.
Null
Damdred - underwhelmed by his reads, which seem to mostly have been of Shining. Need to filter dive. No sense in lynching today.
Damdred - whole filter is super underwhelming. Says he has town reads, but then just gives me and Shining without and further explanation. Lacklustre but posts come off as condescending. Scum side of null but wouldn't lynch yet.
HTS - I am scared of a Mafia Dani, and that is probably colouring my read of her. One thing I'm not sure of is why she voted for DYH having just excoriated kush for his dumbass post about voting for Rels.
Palmar - his entire first act was fighting with Shining. He made his point, and I agreed with it. But he kept pushing and pushing beyond when it was reasonable. I also didn't like that he called my first post "fine" and "null" but at another point said I was a "tow read". Says he doesn't want to lynch into me, then later says I'd be an okay lynch? Huh? I had him in Mafia, but his last few reads on Damdred and
Rels - I'm all over the place on Rels. I've made the point that Mafia Rels tends to buddy harder than he is here. But in this game he seems to be talking in complete parallel to the thread, raising points others aren't but not engaging in the same sort of manner I would expect from a town Rels. But I actually really like his DYH read and vote.
Mafia
LS - his entry list was all nulls ("I need more time on Moosy" -- no shit!) and basic basic points that display no particular thought. #431 says the game is hard but hasn't really given a read on anyone? O
Useless
Kush - he is going to have to do a lot to get back from "not changing my Rels vote even though he might be town because changing votes is hard"
Moosy - only sensible post is pushing Shining on his read of me. When he'd explained it like 8 times and I'd only made one post.
DYH - Lots of town-reads and afk promises. Hardly encouraging. Was not really a fan of his Trfel read.
Onegu. It's O-word dude. Hands up if you're surprised.
I have a bit of trouble following his LS progression after that. Like he thinks LS is scum and then votes kush because kush's progression on LS (who he thinks is scum) is scummy?
N1 he also moves back to HtS... On December 04 2015 08:39 Fidei86 wrote:
I'm not scum. One thing I was thinking is that I actually pinged Dani out a while ago for the same sort of thing Alex is saying now. That's not to say that scum can't bus a little ... Obviously I didn't push Dani that hard. But if Alex agreed with my reasoning, surely it makes me unlikely to be her scum buddy?
Also if I was scum I would 100% have shot Dani. Gameplay regardless, scum Fidei shoots HTS n1 every game. Every time. So there's that. Bold part for smiles. After that he talks a bit about a possible LS/HtS team. Seems a bit focused on certain persons. But he admitted to that earlier.
His probing of NM seems town.
On December 04 2015 23:43 Fidei86 wrote:
I am utterly convinced that LS is Mafia. I am willing to accept that Dani is Mafia, although if she flips town we lynch Alex (possibly before LS).
But I will have time this weekend to read some of the outliers (dis might lynch me if I don't at least read DYH again). On December 05 2015 00:20 Fidei86 wrote:
So LS, your scum team is me, DYH and Dani. Except scumming DYH is easy because he has been a low volume poster, scumming Dani is easy because Alex, and scumming me is easy because of OMGUS? All of your reasons for town reading people are "they are towny", or a call back to a past game.
This is a really poorly thought through list that shows no conviction and no intention to solve. LS is Mafia. Does he vote LS? + Show Spoiler +
On December 05 2015 00:25 Fidei86 wrote:On December 05 2015 00:23 LightningStrike wrote:
BTW James you should check my read progression of DYH? I will. I'll also read DYH's filter this evening. Work is slow today, so I've been able to play a lot of Mafia, but it's all phone posting. Still waiting.
On December 08 2015 00:40 Fidei86 wrote:
Gun to my head, on a pure gut read basis, I think the Mafia is likely 2 of LS, Disfo and NM. LS and NM I've discussed. Disfo is something I've been mulling for a while, and it's mostly because I feel all of his posts have tried to look useful but actually haven't been. (Filter dives to follow. I mean it this time). Not sure how "quite a while" translates to "my last mention of him is like super early D2 with a town read", but at least he is looking at more ppl than HtS,NM,LS and Trfel now.
So here we have a bunch of trees. Let mediate a bit on the forest though. Yes he was suspicious of HtS early on. Did he push her hard? No. He seemed very sure about LS being scum. Did he push him? No. Does he vote him? No. He is very focused on a small group on people. Maybe trying to pick one out of the misslynch list? The reads on those people are also kinda constant. Like the scum read on LS. Promised to look at DYH, did play dota instead. While I like his interactions with NM, interactions with other ppl seem to lack a bit. Did he actually push anyone so far? So I'd say his desire to solve the game doesn't seem to be very present. Possible vote candidate. Eh, I'm not going to stand here and say that my play this game has been optimal. Plainly it hasn't been. I haven't been as active as I could have been, and I accidentally basically got our blue lynched D1. There's one thing that screams out to me from your post. You accuse me of not voting for LS, after I post that I'm sure he's mafia. D1 I got cold feet. It was a mistake. Lots of people in the thread were talking about switching, and LS was here at least fighting his corner, while kush was AFK. It was a total spur of the moment decision, and it was wrong. DAY 2, WE WERE LYNCHING HTS. WHO FLIPPED F'ING SCUM. AND I GAVE VERY CLEAR REASONS WHY I WOULD NEVER MOVE OFF HER. WHY WOULD I VOTE FOR SOMEONE ELSE? Ugh. Like, your other reasons for scumming me are fine, but that one is so bogus, it makes my eyes water. On p77/83.
Uh crud. I think I messed up with the timestamps and assumed the quote I refer to was from N1 and I was confused why you didn't vote/push LS harder, when you just thought he was slamdunk scum.
Rechecked just now and it was way into D2.
So yeah sry, ignore this part, I messed up here. =p
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http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Bussing
Bussing
Bussing is the act of distancing yourself from your scum partners, usually by helping to lynch them (and hopefully playing a major role in convincing others that they are worthy to be lynched). The term "bussing" comes from the phrase "to throw under the bus", which means sacrificing them to gain credibility. The 'bussee' is the player being thrown under the bus, and the 'busser' is the one doing it. The effectiveness of this technique varies, mostly due to the fact that it has been around practically since the beginning of the game of Mafia. The main reason it is successful (when done correctly) is because there is absolutely no way to know positively whether bussing has occurred, or whether the suspicion on the busser's part was legitimate, and coming from a Pro-town viewpoint.
Why bussing works
Bussing works because (if done correctly) it distances the players doing it to each other sufficiently that nobody (or at least, nobody but the smartest players) will ever suspect that they are both scum in the same faction. The reasoning applies that if the bussee is actually lynched; the busser is considered to be obviously pro-town. Because, of course, why would a Mafia member try to get his own scum partner lynched? And thus, WIFOM ensues.
How to spot bussing
Suspicion commonly arises when someone is suddenly lynched for what seem like minor or spurious reasons, and yet flips scum, because it may be indicative that one of the major proponents of their lynch is actually one of their scum partners.
I mean using this definition, I think Fecalfeast would fall most guilty under this (earliest vote, not as active as me or DYH), Trfel and LS both held out on HTS for the longest time before just voting her and there was hardly any resistance to that lynch, and I think Palmar and Shining just piled on at the end, but I think Shining was afk most of phase, and Palmar flipped town.
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On December 08 2015 05:45 Fidei86 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2015 22:53 disformation wrote:Hmm... yeah I think I remember you calling out HtS on D1. But here you are "only" slightly suspicious... and what is a little scum lean between good partners? On December 01 2015 21:45 Fidei86 wrote:
@Rels
I have looked over HTS' posts, and I am more okay with #209 now that I've read it a few times. There's nothing particularly objectionable in there.
At #219, I disagree with her read on the Palmar / Shining interaction. There is something very strange about Shining's progression, and HTS just skates past it.
She then at #224, #237 and #246 goes forward and then back on on Trfel. She asks Shining about people other than Palmar, but noticeably doesn't ask Palmar about people other than Shining.
I know that HTS is very much a fan of Palmar's scum play. I know that she has previously had him as a coach and that she generally speaks highly of him as a player. It is strange to me that she almost specifically avoids interacting with him, or making any comments about him. Honestly, if she can't read him, it seems like the rest of us don't have a chance.
None of the above is a guaranteed scum-tell. But I find it somewhat suspicious. Town HTS nitpicks as well, but I just always get the sense that she is going somewhere with her thoughts. That seems lacking to me. Still want to look at your whole filter and progression on HtS later tonight. The thing is: someone had to bus her. From my POV two someones have bussed HtS and I am going to find out who. Disfo I think you fundamentally misunderstand what bussing is. Bussing is where one mafia player actively works to get HTS lynched. The only people who really worked on the HTS lynch actively were NM, DYH and me. Oh and Palmar, but he's flipped town. If any of us were mafia, that would be a bus. The fact is that it was plainly obvious that she was going to get lynched once Alex, Palmar and I basically decided it. Lots of the rest of you voted for her, but just voting for a scum is not the same as bussing. Your logic is just totally wrong here.
You don't belong to the "maybe he's scum busing HTS" club IMO. You didn't push her like NM and DYH did.
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On December 08 2015 05:57 disformation wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 05:39 Fidei86 wrote:On December 08 2015 05:30 disformation wrote:Sry, this will probably end up being a rant on Fidei86's filter.
Hm so while he was suspicious on HtS at the start he then moves to: On December 03 2015 04:08 Fidei86 wrote:
Town
Shining - He was winning townie plaudits for his fight with Palmar, but rather than carry it on (and continuing to crap up the thread) he stopped (or at least tried to) and gave a good read post at #229. I like his read on dis, which I agree with. He asks Kush and Moosy to do more, at a stage where the better Mafia play would have been to ignore them and let town coalesce towards a "lynch all idiots" lynch. (Disclaimer: I previously called him out for not stopping the fight, but a re-read of his filter shows he was trying to stop it but Palmar wouldn't let it go.)
Trfel - Rels is right, for someone with over 3k posts Trfel sure apologises a lot. He seems to have some sort of reason for his early LS read, which I don't really care about. I actually like is read on Rels "why is he just throwing shit everywhere." Maybe town side of null. His later posts show quite nuanced reasoning. Moved to town for now, otherwise mostly everyone would be null
Dis - he and Trfel are playing similarly in my view. Both reading the thread, giving thoughts relatively fearlessly. Nothing that particularly jumps out as scummy. Lean read.
Null
Damdred - underwhelmed by his reads, which seem to mostly have been of Shining. Need to filter dive. No sense in lynching today.
Damdred - whole filter is super underwhelming. Says he has town reads, but then just gives me and Shining without and further explanation. Lacklustre but posts come off as condescending. Scum side of null but wouldn't lynch yet.
HTS - I am scared of a Mafia Dani, and that is probably colouring my read of her. One thing I'm not sure of is why she voted for DYH having just excoriated kush for his dumbass post about voting for Rels.
Palmar - his entire first act was fighting with Shining. He made his point, and I agreed with it. But he kept pushing and pushing beyond when it was reasonable. I also didn't like that he called my first post "fine" and "null" but at another point said I was a "tow read". Says he doesn't want to lynch into me, then later says I'd be an okay lynch? Huh? I had him in Mafia, but his last few reads on Damdred and
Rels - I'm all over the place on Rels. I've made the point that Mafia Rels tends to buddy harder than he is here. But in this game he seems to be talking in complete parallel to the thread, raising points others aren't but not engaging in the same sort of manner I would expect from a town Rels. But I actually really like his DYH read and vote.
Mafia
LS - his entry list was all nulls ("I need more time on Moosy" -- no shit!) and basic basic points that display no particular thought. #431 says the game is hard but hasn't really given a read on anyone? O
Useless
Kush - he is going to have to do a lot to get back from "not changing my Rels vote even though he might be town because changing votes is hard"
Moosy - only sensible post is pushing Shining on his read of me. When he'd explained it like 8 times and I'd only made one post.
DYH - Lots of town-reads and afk promises. Hardly encouraging. Was not really a fan of his Trfel read.
Onegu. It's O-word dude. Hands up if you're surprised.
I have a bit of trouble following his LS progression after that. Like he thinks LS is scum and then votes kush because kush's progression on LS (who he thinks is scum) is scummy?
N1 he also moves back to HtS... On December 04 2015 08:39 Fidei86 wrote:
I'm not scum. One thing I was thinking is that I actually pinged Dani out a while ago for the same sort of thing Alex is saying now. That's not to say that scum can't bus a little ... Obviously I didn't push Dani that hard. But if Alex agreed with my reasoning, surely it makes me unlikely to be her scum buddy?
Also if I was scum I would 100% have shot Dani. Gameplay regardless, scum Fidei shoots HTS n1 every game. Every time. So there's that. Bold part for smiles. After that he talks a bit about a possible LS/HtS team. Seems a bit focused on certain persons. But he admitted to that earlier.
His probing of NM seems town.
On December 04 2015 23:43 Fidei86 wrote:
I am utterly convinced that LS is Mafia. I am willing to accept that Dani is Mafia, although if she flips town we lynch Alex (possibly before LS).
But I will have time this weekend to read some of the outliers (dis might lynch me if I don't at least read DYH again). On December 05 2015 00:20 Fidei86 wrote:
So LS, your scum team is me, DYH and Dani. Except scumming DYH is easy because he has been a low volume poster, scumming Dani is easy because Alex, and scumming me is easy because of OMGUS? All of your reasons for town reading people are "they are towny", or a call back to a past game.
This is a really poorly thought through list that shows no conviction and no intention to solve. LS is Mafia. Does he vote LS? + Show Spoiler +
On December 05 2015 00:25 Fidei86 wrote:On December 05 2015 00:23 LightningStrike wrote:
BTW James you should check my read progression of DYH? I will. I'll also read DYH's filter this evening. Work is slow today, so I've been able to play a lot of Mafia, but it's all phone posting. Still waiting.
On December 08 2015 00:40 Fidei86 wrote:
Gun to my head, on a pure gut read basis, I think the Mafia is likely 2 of LS, Disfo and NM. LS and NM I've discussed. Disfo is something I've been mulling for a while, and it's mostly because I feel all of his posts have tried to look useful but actually haven't been. (Filter dives to follow. I mean it this time). Not sure how "quite a while" translates to "my last mention of him is like super early D2 with a town read", but at least he is looking at more ppl than HtS,NM,LS and Trfel now.
So here we have a bunch of trees. Let mediate a bit on the forest though. Yes he was suspicious of HtS early on. Did he push her hard? No. He seemed very sure about LS being scum. Did he push him? No. Does he vote him? No. He is very focused on a small group on people. Maybe trying to pick one out of the misslynch list? The reads on those people are also kinda constant. Like the scum read on LS. Promised to look at DYH, did play dota instead. While I like his interactions with NM, interactions with other ppl seem to lack a bit. Did he actually push anyone so far? So I'd say his desire to solve the game doesn't seem to be very present. Possible vote candidate. Eh, I'm not going to stand here and say that my play this game has been optimal. Plainly it hasn't been. I haven't been as active as I could have been, and I accidentally basically got our blue lynched D1. There's one thing that screams out to me from your post. You accuse me of not voting for LS, after I post that I'm sure he's mafia. D1 I got cold feet. It was a mistake. Lots of people in the thread were talking about switching, and LS was here at least fighting his corner, while kush was AFK. It was a total spur of the moment decision, and it was wrong. DAY 2, WE WERE LYNCHING HTS. WHO FLIPPED F'ING SCUM. AND I GAVE VERY CLEAR REASONS WHY I WOULD NEVER MOVE OFF HER. WHY WOULD I VOTE FOR SOMEONE ELSE? Ugh. Like, your other reasons for scumming me are fine, but that one is so bogus, it makes my eyes water. On p77/83. Uh crud. I think I messed up with the timestamps and assumed the quote I refer to was from N1 and I was confused why you didn't vote/push LS harder, when you just thought he was slamdunk scum. Rechecked just now and it was way into D2. So yeah sry, ignore this part, I messed up here. =p
EBWOP
N2 obviously... maybe I just stop posting when tired and full of caffeine...
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EBWOP - Fecalfeast would fall most guilty as he was the first BUT Trfel and LS had or showed doubt on HTS and then didn't bother try to fight it.
All three would be liable for voting HTS for poor reasons or spurious as defined in mafiascum
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But then the first paragraph says "playing a major role"......eh I must be missing something here.
Honestly I've heard it used in multiple ways.
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At the moment, I'm inclined to think disformation is bad rather than mafia based on that exchange but I don't think Fidei's questioning him on this makes him mafia. Probably more likely town. Eh, back to Fidei's filter.
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EPT
