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On December 02 2015 00:58 Half the Sky wrote:Rels, general comment on LS, generally speaking (reference Warcraft 3) he has a rough go at playing scum and as town there are some issues with how articulate he is. He also excessively relies on meta. That said I think of all the posts he has I would focus on 257 and 272 for potential issues. 257 Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 12:18 LightningStrike wrote:Hi guys I had just got home and read and Tfrel tried to snipe me when I was gone even though in the pregame I EVEN TOLD EVERYONE I WAS GOING TO BE GONE TILL NOW -_- Here the quote for proof: On December 01 2015 06:06 LightningStrike wrote:
oh another pre game excuse: I wont be here until like 4 hours after game start due to college class into going out to eat with my parents :o Anyways Tfrel seems like a scumlean for now for trying to snipe me and tried to case Damdred when Damdred caught tfrel on the fact that I told everyone I wasn't going to be here till now. Palmar seems town for now he actually being serious although I don't think Shining is really scum yet but he fooled me till later in my last game when he was scum. I also liking Damdred this game for his responses and actually trying to hunt scum. I need more time on MD because his play style is so weird my experience playing with him and hosting/cohosting games involving him. DYH seems townlean he actually tried to comment on stuff that is relevant to the game. @kush: If you are here what you think of Shining vs Palmar? @Palmar: Okay if Shining is town then who is mafia and why? Also some Christmas pictures for Palmar because I know he's a huge sucker for Christmas: ![[image loading]](http://soclday.com/p/2015/10/images-of-christmas-xaqo9t5w.jpg) Couple of questions - I'm not sure whether LS is trying to meta Palmar from the way he's phrasing it. The reason I am stating this is that assuming he is NOT, then townreading someone for being serious....usually a serious tone is grounds for a scumread. If the context is with respect to Palmar's CASE on Shining then I'm not sure how else he could have gone about saying that because cases in general (ignoring Palmar's meta) are serious. In which case, that part is scummy, cases couldn't be light tone or generally arent' so that would fall in the category of posting just to post. On Shining, the fear read is NAI, provided he has an adequate reason/basis to actually fear read. The problem comes later in 272 when he comments on what HE thinks about Fidei and not what Shining thinks about Fidei revealing about Shining or whether that changes his read. Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 12:52 LightningStrike wrote:On December 01 2015 12:47 The Shining wrote:
It's not the first time you've played with me, nor the first time I've reacted that way. Why is it interesting to you? Do you find it indicative in any way? What do you think of what I said about fidei, or what palmar said about me, or revel about damdred? I was just trying to see if your thoughts had changed since you cooled off. Anyways I think Palmar is town he did this very similarly how he did when I first played with him in Metal Mini when I was town vs his town. Damdred is town like I said earlier I liked his responses since it's a Damdred thought. James is null atm because he went straight to bed afterwards.Also Hi Damdred how are you? So LS a bit more specific on that - not what you thought about James but what you thought about Shining saying about James. The part about Trfel trying to case Damdred, I have to look at that again and see if whether there is a scum basis for that makes his statement reasonable or not. Knowing the SOTW 2 play, it's not outside of the realm of town LS to throw his thoughts out like this but I still find it strange there is no read on Shining or at least him trying to isolate Shining's reaction from the fear read. I don't necessarily think it's mafia indicative yet as I recall other people's fear reads on say ritoky, Kita, etc a lot of people just may not bother reading people at all. The potential concern arises though when things happen after the fact and he won't or doesn't consider it. Right now I'm going to say null/scumlean with a series of questions. There is the mafia characteristic for what he stated on Palmar, I can't figure out why he'd say him being serious is town (assuming I have context correct) when it's pretty much apparent unless he's trying to say Palmar is a jokey person as mafia and is otherwise here, but that's not how I'm reading this. There also is me wondering why he didn't try and contrast his read on Fidei versus Shining's and how he got there. "Going to bed" (I'm taking this as "lack of activity") wasn't IMO the proper metric to gauge that read, but I want to give LS a chance on fleshing out those reads.
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On December 02 2015 00:58 Half the Sky wrote:
Rels, general comment on LS, generally speaking (reference Warcraft 3) he has a rough go at playing scum and as town there are some issues with how articulate he is. He also excessively relies on meta.
That said I think of all the posts he has I would focus on 257 and 272 for potential issues.
257
On December 01 2015 12:18 LightningStrike wrote:Hi guys I had just got home and read and Tfrel tried to snipe me when I was gone even though in the pregame I EVEN TOLD EVERYONE I WAS GOING TO BE GONE TILL NOW -_- Here the quote for proof: Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 06:06 LightningStrike wrote:
oh another pre game excuse: I wont be here until like 4 hours after game start due to college class into going out to eat with my parents :o Anyways Tfrel seems like a scumlean for now for trying to snipe me and tried to case Damdred when Damdred caught tfrel on the fact that I told everyone I wasn't going to be here till now. Palmar seems town for now he actually being serious although I don't think Shining is really scum yet but he fooled me till later in my last game when he was scum. I also liking Damdred this game for his responses and actually trying to hunt scum. I need more time on MD because his play style is so weird my experience playing with him and hosting/cohosting games involving him. DYH seems townlean he actually tried to comment on stuff that is relevant to the game. @kush: If you are here what you think of Shining vs Palmar? @Palmar: Okay if Shining is town then who is mafia and why? Also some Christmas pictures for Palmar because I know he's a huge sucker for Christmas:
Couple of questions - I'm not sure whether LS is trying to meta Palmar from the way he's phrasing it. The reason I am stating this is that assuming he is NOT, then townreading someone for being serious....usually a serious tone is grounds for a scumread. If the context is with respect to Palmar's CASE on Shining then I'm not sure how else he could have gone about saying that because cases in general (ignoring Palmar's meta) are serious.
In which case, that part is scummy, cases couldn't be light tone or generally arent' so that would fall in the category of posting just to post.
On Shining, the fear read is NAI, provided he has an adequate reason/basis to actually fear read. The problem comes later in 272 when he comments on what HE thinks about Fidei and not what Shining thinks about Fidei revealing about Shining or whether that changes his read.
On December 01 2015 12:52 LightningStrike wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 12:47 The Shining wrote:
It's not the first time you've played with me, nor the first time I've reacted that way. Why is it interesting to you? Do you find it indicative in any way? What do you think of what I said about fidei, or what palmar said about me, or revel about damdred? I was just trying to see if your thoughts had changed since you cooled off. Anyways I think Palmar is town he did this very similarly how he did when I first played with him in Metal Mini when I was town vs his town. Damdred is town like I said earlier I liked his responses since it's a Damdred thought. James is null atm because he went straight to bed afterwards.Also Hi Damdred how are you?
So LS a bit more specific on that - not what you thought about James but what you thought about Shining saying about James.
The part about Trfel trying to case Damdred, I have to look at that again and see if whether there is a scum basis for that makes his statement reasonable or not.
Knowing the SOTW 2 play, it's not outside of the realm of town LS to throw his thoughts out like this but I still find it strange there is no read on Shining or at least him trying to isolate Shining's reaction from the fear read. I don't necessarily think it's mafia indicative yet as I recall other people's fear reads on say ritoky, Kita, etc a lot of people just may not bother reading people at all. The potential concern arises though when things happen after the fact and he won't or doesn't consider it.
Right now I'm going to say null/scumlean with a series of questions. There is the mafia characteristic for what he stated on Palmar, I can't figure out why he'd say him being serious is town (assuming I have context correct) when it's pretty much apparent unless he's trying to say Palmar is a jokey person as mafia and is otherwise here, but that's not how I'm reading this. There also is me wondering why he didn't try and contrast his read on Fidei versus Shining's and how he got there.
"Going to bed" (I'm taking this as "lack of activity") wasn't IMO the proper metric to gauge that read, but I want to give LS a chance on fleshing out those reads.
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Good lord, I'm losing my head.
Anyways. Hopefully that's somewhat clear Rels.
Also I realise a mistake - that should be Witchcraft 3, not Warcraft 3.
I really need to lie down.
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On December 02 2015 02:45 kushm4sta wrote:
Yes I use my own experience as scum to predict how other people will act as scum. But actually I was accusing him of a standard scumtell, over defense.
Don't put too much stock in what I say, because I don't have any sort of handle on this game so far. I am looking forward to playing in a few days after the herd has been thinned.
My vote stays on Rels for now. Probably he isn't scum but maybe he is and on my phone it takes a lot of effort to change my vote.
Phoneposting from my bed - aside from the obvious you two (Fabian and James) just hashed out, do you or anyone else think the bolded is TMI? As in, he is posting as such he knows he won't die.
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On December 02 2015 02:28 Damdred wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2015 02:24 Trfel wrote:
I realized that DoYouHas' activity fits a mafia motivation fairly strongly, assuming that Damdred is town. And still fits somewhat if Damdred is mafia. this is bad and you should know why
I took a hard look at DYH's filter again, obviously you aren't talking about the progression on yourself, but where you are drawing a contrast between say, his activity and, say, kushm4sta's? (LS and Shining have had obvious RL excuses, so I'll leave them out.)
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I know I haven't. Only experience was Carol, where he did nothing, in my newbie which was over a year ago, he was more active, but in any case, not really a good metric to read him. My take on it, was with a possible vig in the setup, that, why he'd just say something like that. Town generally will spout whatever so I want to think that's what he's doing here, but that one sentence, when someone phrases something like that, it gives me pause. It might seem like "too scummy to be scum" but even when I go back to his explanation that it is an over defence stance, the standard thing to do at least to check Shining against Rels and evaluate whether he lynches Shining over Rels. Even if he's too lazy to follow up on Shining or was just unable, he's clearly throwing his vote away atm seeing as there isn't a train on Rels atm nor is he actually pushing him. Even if he doesn't want to do the latter, the explanation for voting Shining as it stands makes more sense than what I'm seeing for Rels at least based on what he's posted.
I mean if he wasn't lazy enough to post those two paragraphs, surely he's not lazy enough to change his vote?
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Looking at 346/349 -
LS, I'm not referring to meta. Let's make sure I'm not misunderstanding you here.
I'm not talking about Palmar's tone in general. I'm talking about his case. If you read the context differently, then tell me how you interpreted that.
You are saying that he's town because his tone is serious and from 349 it's based on meta. Okay fine, but regardless of meta, why would Palmar's case NOT be serious? What I'm trying to say here is that you are townreading him for a poor reason.
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Also post 349:
Just got to college campus and took care of stuff and about Palmar: It's meta read that I have on him because he did similar stuff to me in Metal Mini which you observed and I do find Shining town for now although he did show huge emotions as scum last game but I giving him a benefit of a doubt. Mainly Shining's content seems better ths game than his last game when he was scum vs me.
Alright, so in spite of your meta read on Shining and your fear read from earlier, you still think his content is better this game rather than last. What game was this, and how long ago and how are you so sure that his scum game hasn't improved given what you've said with the emotions?
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I need to put my head down again since I'm still feeling pretty sick. Going to go through again Trfel/Damdred/Fidei/disformation etc. on a full re-read. I'm also having issues with town reads.
Right now, I need to flesh out Trfel a little more, same for disformation and LS. The lynch list right now is kush/DYH, Onegu is straight policy, but there's got to be an active mafia somewhere.
Palmar is probably town but this is a gut feel based on how he proceeded with the case.
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Regarding Rels, I recall him being nitpicky from his town games but nothing about the nitpicking jumps out as scumlike. Trfel why do you think he's being opportunistic with DYH? (It was based off a read progression and not activity.)
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On December 02 2015 04:27 LightningStrike wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2015 04:19 Half the Sky wrote:Also post 349: Just got to college campus and took care of stuff and about Palmar: It's meta read that I have on him because he did similar stuff to me in Metal Mini which you observed and I do find Shining town for now although he did show huge emotions as scum last game but I giving him a benefit of a doubt. Mainly Shining's content seems better ths game than his last game when he was scum vs me. Alright, so in spite of your meta read on Shining and your fear read from earlier, you still think his content is better this game rather than last. What game was this, and how long ago and how are you so sure that his scum game hasn't improved given what you've said with the emotions? Drams whichwas like maybe a month or two ago O_o Just instincts plus his content was much better this game.
*facepalm* duh, I'm an idiot. I completely forgot about Drams. Super lurky in that game.
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On December 02 2015 04:24 LightningStrike wrote:Okay I here now and Tfrel I did answer HTS just not directly quoted. Show nested quote +On December 02 2015 04:15 Half the Sky wrote:
Looking at 346/349 -
LS, I'm not referring to meta. Let's make sure I'm not misunderstanding you here.
I'm not talking about Palmar's tone in general. I'm talking about his case. If you read the context differently, then tell me how you interpreted that.
You are saying that he's town because his tone is serious and from 349 it's based on meta. Okay fine, but regardless of meta, why would Palmar's case NOT be serious? What I'm trying to say here is that you are townreading him for a poor reason. I didn't say it wasn't serious? Anyways the way he argued Shining like I said had a serious tone plus like said he did a very similar thing to me in Metal Mini when I was fighting him and felt frustrated with him. It took me a bit of arguing to get him to townread me in that game because I was still a newbie lol.... So it a little both but more towards personal experience with him.
Argh, no. I am saying that you said his tone is serious. In any case, you want to say you are giving a personal read towards him.
Alright, I still think this is a bad read because like I said before Palmar really can't be done off one read, but now that I've fleshed it out I don't think you are mafia for this. Still need to read the rest of your filter in conjunction with Trfel/Damdred when I return though.
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Yes, LS, I know but to be quite honest, when I think of Drams, I think of that game for all of the fighting that went down that game of which he wasn't a part of. Don't want to be a dead horse on that, but that's that.
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Almost forgot - voting DYH at this time. I should be back in a few hours I think.
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DYH, if you return, any updates on anyone would be grand.
Onegu, same.
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Alright, I just woke up, and I am not feeling any better. I'm headed to a doctor's appointment in an hour, but I am hoping to get back in thread barring anything serious.
I fully realise I have a shittonne to catch up on - if anyone has any questions for me, or anything specific they want me to weigh on, please prompt me and I'll do so when I return.
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I'm here. I am still really sick (and thanks for the well wishes all, I hope I will improve) but I'm going to try my best here to answer all the questions possible.
On December 03 2015 03:13 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 03:06 LightningStrike wrote:On December 03 2015 03:04 Trfel wrote:On December 03 2015 03:01 LightningStrike wrote:On December 03 2015 02:58 Trfel wrote:On December 02 2015 23:07 Half the Sky wrote:
Alright, I just woke up, and I am not feeling any better. I'm headed to a doctor's appointment in an hour, but I am hoping to get back in thread barring anything serious.
I fully realise I have a shittonne to catch up on - if anyone has any questions for me, or anything specific they want me to weigh on, please prompt me and I'll do so when I return. First of all, really sorry that you aren't feeling well. Hope you can recover soon. Why did you vote for DoYouHas instead of kushm4sta? Why didn't you include LightningStrike in the lynch list? Now that he's (at least mostly, I think?) answered your questions, what do you think about him? Why did your read on me (Trfel) change? read her filter if you want to see her progression on me  + Show Spoiler + And where did you get that conclusion from? On December 02 2015 04:38 Half the Sky wrote:On December 02 2015 04:24 LightningStrike wrote:Okay I here now and Tfrel I did answer HTS just not directly quoted. On December 02 2015 04:15 Half the Sky wrote:
Looking at 346/349 -
LS, I'm not referring to meta. Let's make sure I'm not misunderstanding you here.
I'm not talking about Palmar's tone in general. I'm talking about his case. If you read the context differently, then tell me how you interpreted that.
You are saying that he's town because his tone is serious and from 349 it's based on meta. Okay fine, but regardless of meta, why would Palmar's case NOT be serious? What I'm trying to say here is that you are townreading him for a poor reason. I didn't say it wasn't serious? Anyways the way he argued Shining like I said had a serious tone plus like said he did a very similar thing to me in Metal Mini when I was fighting him and felt frustrated with him. It took me a bit of arguing to get him to townread me in that game because I was still a newbie lol.... So it a little both but more towards personal experience with him. Argh, no. I am saying that you said his tone is serious. In any case, you want to say you are giving a personal read towards him. Alright, I still think this is a bad read because like I said before Palmar really can't be done off one read, but now that I've fleshed it out I don't think you are mafia for this. Still need to read the rest of your filter in conjunction with Trfel/Damdred when I return though. Yeah.... "I don't think you are mafia for this" means that Half the Sky is not scum reading you for one specific thing in your filter. As in, she could be scum reading you for the entire rest of your filter. And that's not a townread on that one thing either. Does anyone know if LightningStrike is generally this self-conscious as town with regards to other people's townreads on him? To make a big jump like this and try to assume everything is a townread? Because this is making me doubt my earlier town lean on him.
The above is correct. This also partially helps answer Trfel's question to me - LS was not in my lynch list (and relative to the rest of the thread) because D1, similar to SOTW, if there's something that is not clicking I have to flesh his reads out. He was a scumlean based on the stuff he said, I hashed out to make sure I was understanding LS, and it was back to null pending the interactions with other people in the thread. There was a part where he mentioned Trfel casing Damdred (and I still have to go back and look at that, Christ) which would give some indication as to Trfel/Damdred/LS alignments to some extent. Obviously need to catch up on the rest of his filter. Not lynching him until I read and feel otherwise.
Trfel, I mentioned a post where I scumleaned you initially for the comment you made on LS. I made an explanation as to why, it was something along the lines of tone and not wanting to take responsibility. There was something else that you mentioned, you answered it, but if you answered that first concern, show me the post where you did. There's a very good chance I missed it. Again, I failed to analyse you v Damdred.
DYH over kush - It was part read on Trfel and part lack of followup on Trfel at that time when he commented on Shining/Palmar, which I felt could have come from either alignment. Also I wanted to press him for more reads, and I recall I did that somewhere. Obviously need to check his filter again and see what he's done since. I know I did not scumread him on activity especially since it's my first game with him and I don't know offhand if he's a lurky player. In any instance, I put both in a lynch list and I gave my reasons for not liking kush.
Also I think it was you Trfel, whoever it was said that scum doesn't know the setup. This is not true. Look at the day one post. There is a list of 4 setups so that is part of where my statement came from.
Additional comments/followups from what I saw from skimming the thread:
Rels - posting game details has to be done regardless of whatever else games I'm playing. It either needed to be done when signups went up or very soon after. I was queued in, it had to get done. Take that as you will.
Disformation - looking at your response to my last question right now, also did you have a question for me? You said a few times you were looking through my filter.
Trfel - did you answer my questions regarding distinguishing activity between DYH and kush? (post 391, again if I missed it point it out) If you looked into Rels based on your last response to me, what did you think of him? (same deal if I missed it)
Should hopefully be able to move forward after this. Let me see who is up for lynch and weigh in...
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On December 03 2015 04:44 Trfel wrote:
Side note, I remember that Half the Sky mentioned that she'd only played with kushm4sta before in Carol of the Bells. Which is wrong, since we all played in I believe Student Mafia IV (one of the Student Mafia games, before the Newbie Student mafias), and kushm4sta was in that game and actually sort of played. He was mafia, so I'm surprised that Half the Sky forgot that.
But I just remembered that kushm4sta actually was in Carol of the Bells. If you have any doubt that kushm4sta is capable of playing this lazily as town, look at his play from Carol of the Bells.
He had (arguably) the most important town power role in the game. A mafia player baited the role to claim, and the entire thread yelled at how stupid that request was. Didn't matter, kushm4sta didn't care and just claimed his role and died.
In retrospect, it was pretty darn hilarious, but at the time it was infuriating.
No I did not forget that. I know I cited both games.
And kush wasn't mafia in the Student game. No way. I remember the lynch trains bouncing between both of us and both of us were town and I had modconfirmed myself because I posted after the bloody deadline.
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On December 02 2015 04:03 Half the Sky wrote:
I know I haven't. Only experience was Carol, where he did nothing, in my newbie which was over a year ago, he was more active, but in any case, not really a good metric to read him. My take on it, was with a possible vig in the setup, that, why he'd just say something like that. Town generally will spout whatever so I want to think that's what he's doing here, but that one sentence, when someone phrases something like that, it gives me pause. It might seem like "too scummy to be scum" but even when I go back to his explanation that it is an over defence stance, the standard thing to do at least to check Shining against Rels and evaluate whether he lynches Shining over Rels. Even if he's too lazy to follow up on Shining or was just unable, he's clearly throwing his vote away atm seeing as there isn't a train on Rels atm nor is he actually pushing him. Even if he doesn't want to do the latter, the explanation for voting Shining as it stands makes more sense than what I'm seeing for Rels at least based on what he's posted.
I mean if he wasn't lazy enough to post those two paragraphs, surely he's not lazy enough to change his vote?
At Trfel -
I didn't say "student mafia IV" but the vein is the same. And I know LS was also in that game too and he was mafia that game. It was LS and two inactives. I just remember that game partially because it was my first and also, for all the wrong reasons. (I should have been modkilled that game.)
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disformation - my focus was on "opportunistic" being scumlike, not "nitpicky" (second question), which can be for either alignment. I know he mentioned the word opportunistic, so that is why.
second question - I will admit I might be misremembering but again interactions with others as I missed some of the key events early on.
Getting through your last response now, and then will weigh in on the others.
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EPT
