EPTOn November 15 2015 05:36 sicklucker wrote:
im pretty sure im vivax's strongest townread now and its very logical. Do you live in paris?
im pretty sure im vivax's strongest townread now and its very logical. Do you live in paris?
Yep.
[T][M] Resistance V - Section 31 - Page 156
| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
|
Rels
France13467 Posts
Yep. | ||
|
Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
On November 16 2015 00:36 Vivax wrote: And I think rayn bussed the hell out of you. It just made no sense for him to get mad about you calling his play in some game shit. I think it was an act, otherwise if he gets mad he does it for a reason and if you respond to him in a calm demeanor he can tone it down and say something normally. He didn't do that with you. He acted like he hated you all this game and yet you both always voted the same on the fail teams. I can't speak for rayn, I just know I was pretty clear in why I voted the way I did, and that two scum voting no is very possible, and again, that voting no on the failed teams does not clear people. Multiple people have said that now. And honestly rayn doesn't take any sort of criticism well, I went back and forth as to how I called his game NAI yet toxic and he kept interpreting that as trying to discredit/antagonise/whatever words he used. I know he slips with English sometimes so I'm not going to put that past him either. | ||
|
Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
| ||
|
Rels
France13467 Posts
I'm scum because the team goes against my reads and I dedouaned myself from nominating a team. People thinking that should be thinking Arta is scum, or at least suspicious 'cause (1) he did the exact same thing and (2) I'm putting him in my team. Here is what HTS did: On November 15 2015 06:50 Half the Sky wrote: On mobile, bear with me please. The answer to that question is yes, we've chatted out of game  Aside, overall I feel this is a WIFOM attempt to (perhaps?) eventually get on someone's team and eventually fail a mission. I will explain why in his world, this proposal does not make sense from town side. (All references at bottom of post so you can see context and judge for yourselves.) From town side. Rels was hard scumreading Artanis and in his world one of Artanis or myself has to be mafia. He is proposing a team with both of us on it. He was asking me multiple times (well at least once I know I recall) why I was townreading Artanis. He concluded that one of us has to be scum. Now? He places both of us on the team. Second he hard townreads rayn. Now? He leaves him off. Not as sharp as the first point, but quite curious given prior reads. Furthermore he pushes the line that it's not possible that two scums voted no, and then Artanis and I having both voted yes, he puts us both up. (I don't believe I misunderstood this.) What changed? (of course, when you can answer, I understand obv not right away) Overall, ironically the team he's put up is a clean team, but seeing as town have to get three missions passed to win and scum only need to fail one more, I have a strong sense of WIFOM/disassociation/tinfoil/whatever you want to call it about so another scummer (or him?) can slip through on a later mission (Kita's or someone else slipping up). Follow the read progression folks. References: 1 Scumreading Artanis v myself Rels' filter page 20/thread page 127-128 (posts 2540/2552) Rels' filter page 21/thread pages 129 on and off through 138 (posts 2572, 2638, 2639, 2640, 2654, 2667, 2758) Rels' filter page 22/thread page 139 (posts 2766) - trying to convince Artanis he's scum) 2 Townread of rayn Rels' filter page 22/thread page 139-140 (post 2769/2773/2775/2777/2779/2782/2783) - Artanis' post on familiarity is valid as Rels has played 3 games with rayn (SOTW, Newbie 13, Drams) at least 2 he was abrasive, warned in Drams (which rayn admitted to). 3 Rels pushing the two scums voting no line Rels' filter page 23/thread page 143 (post 2844) - he was pushing that well before that page before but that was the latest he was pushing that idea Rels is scum 'cause he nominated a WIFOM team that was against his read. But the team is clean, so Arta, who did the same thing, is town. Second thing, kita has tried to get HTS talking about things about Arta and I. HTS didn't answer in details to these unless I missed it. But now that she sees the opportunity to both: - explain how I am even scummier than before - push people to vote YES she's putting the effort to do it. Third thing, town is one failure away from losing, and she's OK voting YES to a team nominated by her scumread. TLDR 1. Arta does something, he's town; Rels does the same thing, Rels is scum and Arta is still town 2. She's putting the effort to convince even more people I'm scum. 3. She's OK voting YES to a team nominated by her scumread. Now this doesn't mean Arta is scum by itself; but since HTS is OK putting herself out of teams only if Arta is instead, there is a relationship. As to why Arta is scum, see kita's big post about him. | ||
|
Rels
France13467 Posts
On November 15 2015 07:26 sicklucker wrote: we should all vote no to this and see who votes yes. ill put up pretty much the same team next anyway. more info the better and artanis can still be scum. Dont say you agree if you agree ill vote no In contrast, this is a townie reaction from anyone townreading SL. | ||
|
Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
But let's just see how these votes pan out and take it from there. | ||
|
Rels
France13467 Posts
On November 15 2015 07:28 Half the Sky wrote: I will be very honest, I really feel this team is clean. But if you want me to downvote this team, I can. I definitely trust you and Vivax and that will put the 5th mission in my hands (assuming we all downvote whatever Kita puts up) so I can go either way on this. I can also do one final check on Artanis as well prior to upvoting. On November 15 2015 07:31 Half the Sky wrote: I don't know what you mean by "don't say you'll agree/if you agree" But if it is trust you need me to resolve and you're tinfoiling me, then I'll downvote it for you. I think that might be the issue here. I feel HTS is like: "SL I know I slipped by trying to get this team passed please still be my friend." Not a ounce of tinfoil in her mind that just maybe SL is scum. She has decided what the team was and she s sticking to it. | ||
|
Vivax
22104 Posts
On November 16 2015 00:48 Half the Sky wrote: I can't speak for rayn, I just know I was pretty clear in why I voted the way I did, and that two scum voting no is very possible, and again, that voting no on the failed teams does not clear people. Multiple people have said that now. And honestly rayn doesn't take any sort of criticism well, I went back and forth as to how I called his game NAI yet toxic and he kept interpreting that as trying to discredit/antagonise/whatever words he used. I know he slips with English sometimes so I'm not going to put that past him either. But why are you so forgiving towards him? Why does he have to be 100 % town all the time? If he used the arguments on you that he used on me I'd be scumreading him 100 %. I think he just thought you and Shockey looked awful and wanted to send you where the sun doesn't shine and get nomd on every team himself. That's scenario 1. Scenario 2 is that he's mafia with Artanis. That would have worked up until the point where his reads stopped making sense and he went for suicide by mod. Now tell me again if rayn isn't capable of replicating what he did in his last town game you cohosted if he were mafia, do you think he has the short term memory of an ant? I rage ergo sum ? | ||
|
Rels
France13467 Posts
On November 15 2015 22:15 Vivax wrote: I need to correct one part of the argument: Rayn posted the thing about him not pushing SL after the mission failed, not after it was passed. I misread the time there. This might be semantics/a mistake but asking Xata to explain why he would scumread Shockey shouldn't make sense from rayn's perspective, he should be glad of Xata accepting Shockey being scum. Then we proceed to this: So the mission fails. Only SL and Artanis vote no as predicted. HTS and shockey vote yes. What happens afterwards is that rayn commits suicide by host for some reason. But that at a time where he could have done this: Go wtf on the 2 yes votes and immediately start looking for the mafia on that wagon. Given what he said about those voting no, rayn here would have immediately gone for a team of HTS/Shockey/??? Xatalos! Cause SL voting no here and Xata voting yes should have immediately put Xata into the scummy corner for him. But that wasn't possible cause then the mission wouldn't have failed. So the only conclusion to be gained from this mission is that either rayn, Xata or kita were mafia, which would have made it impossible for HTS and shockey to be mafia too. Instead of thinking logically here, rayn decided to throw a tantrum of rage on purpose, cause the only logical conclusion to be had was that he was dead wrong and that he would look much worse. This is good. For HTS / Arta to make sense, rayn have to be scum, but I couldn't see why a mafia would get modkilled. This could be why. | ||
|
Rels
France13467 Posts
On November 15 2015 22:34 Artanis[Xp] wrote: So I was typing this as you rudely started seeding doubt. Anyway, game is already solved. Kita is clearly mafia for creating narratives on both me and Vivax rather than actual cases, actually construing things that are towny to make it look mafia. He's also been extremely disconnected from the thread, just doing his own thing and interacting once or twice at most before just discontinuing and going back doing his own thing. Rels is mafia for doing things he accused me of. He made a team he doesn't even believe in himself with two of his scumreads on it, as well as the fact that he's been pushing everyone in the start based on trivial stuff. He also couldn't explain why he flipped on Rayn very well. The team he sent in is clearly WIFOM and it means nothing as there's 0 chance he actually expects it to go through, with everyone and their mum scumreading him. It might actually make it more likely that everyone on there is town so that SL can wifom himself into adding a scum (which appears to be working). SL clearly isn't scum for how much he's tryharding and struggling to put on a team as well as suggesting not to put himself on a mission to do it by mission 5. SL doesn't try hard unless he feels he has to and if he was mafia he really didn't need to at this point. Rayn is probably town due to the way he was interacting with people and actually held back at the start, but eventually caved in and went full you-aren't-being-logical-so-you-must-be-scum-townrayn. The way he behaved aligned up exactly with how I'd expect townrayn to behave. Xata is scum due to everything HtS has said. Being very vague in general, not properly evaluating HtS and also PoE. SL and Rayn probably aren't scum so he has to be. I will be yayvoting the team, especially since the only semi-doubtful member of my 6-person town team isn't in there, and I just don't think Rels actually expects this mission to have any chance of going through. And now Arta is pushing people to vote YES with overexplanation. This is making soooo much sense. | ||
|
Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
On November 16 2015 00:50 Rels wrote: K HTS just slipped right there. I purposefully did the same thing Arta did when he picked rayn's team to gather reactions. The normal reaction of someone scumreading me should be: I'm scum because the team goes against my reads and I dedouaned myself from nominating a team. People thinking that should be thinking Arta is scum, or at least suspicious 'cause (1) he did the exact same thing and (2) I'm putting him in my team. Here is what HTS did: Rels is scum 'cause he nominated a WIFOM team that was against his read. But the team is clean, so Arta, who did the same thing, is town. Second thing, kita has tried to get HTS talking about things about Arta and I. HTS didn't answer in details to these unless I missed it. But now that she sees the opportunity to both: - explain how I am even scummier than before - push people to vote YES she's putting the effort to do it. Third thing, town is one failure away from losing, and she's OK voting YES to a team nominated by her scumread. TLDR 1. Arta does something, he's town; Rels does the same thing, Rels is scum and Arta is still town 2. She's putting the effort to convince even more people I'm scum. 3. She's OK voting YES to a team nominated by her scumread. Now this doesn't mean Arta is scum by itself; but since HTS is OK putting herself out of teams only if Arta is instead, there is a relationship. As to why Arta is scum, see kita's big post about him. You're cherry picking a LOT of stuff here. Artanis had a response to what Kita said and why Kita was guilty of framing that in a mafia lens and not seeing the townie half of that. I am saying that what you are doing if taken seriously makes no sense for a town standpoint. As mafia you have every incentive to try and fool people when you're up 2-0 so you can find a way to slip one of yourselves in a team. Independent of whatever you pick, there's nothing wrong with looking at the people independently and the way they have played the game so far and reach a different conclusion on what you are trying to do with that information. Additionally, you fail to consider the conversation that I had with sicklucker before the team was formalised. Such selective reasoning, it's pathetic. VERY mafia motivated here. | ||
|
Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
On November 16 2015 00:57 Rels wrote: And now Arta is pushing people to vote YES with overexplanation. This is making soooo much sense. Not overexplanation, but re-emphasis, this is just a summary of all of his reads of the game to another player who has replaced in and may not have grasped everything he's absorbed in a shorter amount of time. This is absolutely pathetic from you, how you are re-framing this from an exclusively mafia lens. If you are going to call this mafia, explain why the reads themselves (or his bases) are mafia. | ||
|
Rels
France13467 Posts
On November 16 2015 00:58 Half the Sky wrote: You're cherry picking a LOT of stuff here. Artanis had a response to what Kita said and why Kita was guilty of framing that in a mafia lens and not seeing the townie half of that. I am saying that what you are doing if taken seriously makes no sense for a town standpoint. As mafia you have every incentive to try and fool people when you're up 2-0 so you can find a way to slip one of yourselves in a team. Independent of whatever you pick, there's nothing wrong with looking at the people independently and the way they have played the game so far and reach a different conclusion on what you are trying to do with that information. Additionally, you fail to consider the conversation that I had with sicklucker before the team was formalised. Such selective reasoning, it's pathetic. VERY mafia motivated here. Cant be mafia motivated since I'm posting it ... you tried to push your victory too fast before backpedaling immediately. Sry. =X At least that's what is making sense to me. I know a few days ago I thought you were town 'cause I thought rayn couldn't be scum. But the way you tried to at the same time: - put dirt on me for the team I nominated - push people to vote YES on the team I nominated doesn't make sense from a town perspective. | ||
|
Vivax
22104 Posts
I think early game holds answers to this quest. | ||
|
Rels
France13467 Posts
On November 16 2015 01:00 Half the Sky wrote: Not overexplanation, but re-emphasis, this is just a summary of all of his reads of the game to another player who has replaced in and may not have grasped everything he's absorbed in a shorter amount of time. This is absolutely pathetic from you, how you are re-framing this from an exclusively mafia lens. If you are going to call this mafia, explain why the reads themselves (or his bases) are mafia. The reads are just vague, as everything than Arta did all game. In particular, thanks, I think I spotted a rayn contradiction, where before Vivax' posts he was like "yeah rayn is 100% town", after he was "mm what you are saying makes me doubt"; and he claims to have written this post before reading the Vivax' stuff, but the paragraph on rayn is "rayn is probably town". Let's check that shall we ? | ||
|
Rels
France13467 Posts
On November 14 2015 20:35 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Oh and Rayn was definitely town. Everything about him just said town. Typical tunneling for people not making sense and getting angry over it. His post: On November 15 2015 22:34 Artanis[Xp] wrote: So I was typing this as you rudely started seeding doubt. [...] Rayn is probably town due to the way he was interacting with people and actually held back at the start, but eventually caved in and went full you-aren't-being-logical-so-you-must-be-scum-townrayn. The way he behaved aligned up exactly with how I'd expect townrayn to behave. OK he says he "was typing this", so it's plausible from either alignment he corrected his rayn's read before posting. Nothing to see here. | ||
|
Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
On November 16 2015 00:56 Vivax wrote: But why are you so forgiving towards him? Why does he have to be 100 % town all the time? If he used the arguments on you that he used on me I'd be scumreading him 100 %. I think he just thought you and Shockey looked awful and wanted to send you where the sun doesn't shine and get nomd on every team himself. That's scenario 1. Scenario 2 is that he's mafia with Artanis. That would have worked up until the point where his reads stopped making sense and he went for suicide by mod. Now tell me again if rayn isn't capable of replicating what he did in his last town game you cohosted if he were mafia, do you think he has the short term memory of an ant? I rage ergo sum ? Here's the thing Vivax, I'm not just looking at his anger. I'm looking at his overall nitpickiness this game. I'm looking at every way he's been framing arguments and looking at different people, not just myself. There was one sentence where he's obviusly going to be wrongfully townreading people if he scumreads people - "but I keep coming back to everything Shockey and HTS are posting and it's so scummy" (paraphrasing). Additionally, he never took into account rightly or wrongly my RL schedule the first half of this game (before Thursday when I was still at home) but this isn't outside the boundaries of town rayn as was stated. When he tunnelled the shit out of Scott in Drams for example, Scott had replaced in for a player (J Roc) who was extremely scummy when he left, and IN SPITE OF SCOTT CLAIMING TRACKER and posting his last will especially prior to getting lynched, he never wavered on that tunnel and the tracker got lynched even though Scott was way more towny than his precedessor. To that, rayn responded that once he saw that J Roc was scummy, he felt there was no further discussion and wanted to lynch the replacement and moved on, He tunnelled the shit out of LS in SOTW if I recall correctly. He has unintentinally misinterpreted things as town, so I cannot exclude that possibility here. Now, if you want to talk about the anger alone, the last several games now he's been going crazy and in Drams (I warned him in Drams, which he publicly disclosed), he was directly/indirectly responsible for making people quit TL. Now I really did not want to bring that topic up whilst in the thread because I honestly thought it was inappropriate and I thought it would caused even larger problems than it did, but now that he is gone and that you are asking me this, I will say part of the reason I responded to him the way I did was because I saw a larger issue with his behaviour (see the part where I said "I will save this conversation for post-game") and he just continued to get angry at me. This is something I've seen as destructive to town (and by extension to the community) regardless of his alignment, and as such, I have tried to evaluate him away from his emotions. | ||
|
Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
On November 16 2015 01:02 Vivax wrote: Challenge of the day: HTS vs Rels. I think early game holds answers to this quest. Like I said before, disassociation. If you don't believe Artanis' explanation or my reasoning for voting the team in, you'll see endgame he and Kita made quite the play, all they needed was one person up there, and IIRC both rayn (in your world) and Xata had voted themselves in. | ||
|
Rels
France13467 Posts
On November 16 2015 01:17 Half the Sky wrote: Like I said before, disassociation. If you don't believe Artanis' explanation or my reasoning for voting the team in, you'll see endgame he and Kita made quite the play, all they needed was one person up there, and IIRC both rayn (in your world) and Xata had voted themselves in. The way you are not re evaluating since mission 2 is revelative. | ||
|
Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
Anyways Rels, please, it's a damn summary, not "vague" (3115), you continue to frame that to your liking. | ||
| ||
