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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 14 2015 09:29 GhandiEAGLE wrote: By essential information is that a blue claim? Or just something your saying. I don't know, but I wanna find out!  ##Vote: TJHuggins Would love to see some more votes on TJ, just to push him into carrying through with posting his "essential information." | ||
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silentwarrior
131 Posts
On July 15 2015 08:31 Half the Sky wrote: Silentwarrior....I know he's putting in the effort and people can't be in thread perpetually. But in the event that Gandhi winds up being a mislynch he might come under some suspicion. I can't put my finger on articulating it well at the moment (aside from the parroting, even the point by Scott was previously mentioned by WP, but a lot of people are understandably guilty of that) but the first two quotes of his long post at the top of page 25 are slightly biased in that they don't account for how a town Gandhi would act. Nowhere did he say "no one to make reads" but on Gandhi's end you do have a lack of followup. It could be suboptimal town or scum play. GE is in his second game ever on TL so believeable expectations aren't too high if a town Gandhi wants to prioritise lurkers. Also 2 hours post-lynch depending on timezone is not considered too soon. Stateside, the EoDs (I'm assuming you are EU btw) are during evening rush hour, so who knows. I know you're new so I'm considering this part NAI for now. But popping up so soon after the lynch, 2 hours is not considered very soon. 2 minutes, yes you have a case. Again I am a bit ahead and it is an associative read at this point in time (meaning can't know until a Gandhi flip) but I'm still null on SW at the moment. I think based on effort most newbie scum wouldn't give much effort. At the same time scum are concerned with "looking town" so I do remain cautious on SW. I said the thing about scott first right after he posted it. So if anything, wp is parroting me. Ghandi said that it is impossible to make reads, which basically means to not do them. What else would they mean? Don't know, still think it was rather convenient that he popped up like that. | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 14 2015 16:27 Fidei86 wrote: Strong Town-lean: N00b - Again, I don't see any reason for n00b to start pinging out a scum buddy this early, particularly not where the vote circumstances were so close. Unless the scum team includes Moosy, I don't see a world in which n00b is Mafia. Won't worry much about defending myself, since I'm under no real pressure anyway, but I'll just briefly mention that even if Moosy were scum, it still doesn't create a world in which I can be Mafia, unless Moosy is the roleblocker. If Moosy ever flipped Goon, I don't think it makes me look worse at all. It would mean I saved the Goon on my team, in order to instead ditch...the Godfather? That's a push if there's no Cop in the setup, and a disaster if there is a Cop in the setup. | ||
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silentwarrior
131 Posts
On July 15 2015 08:41 Half the Sky wrote: This is a decent point. He was a solo voter and having done too many VCAs to count I might be a little biased since he solo voted, but newbies probably don't have the concept of town consolidation down either, at least not yet. I didn't solo vote at the time i voted, noobking changed his vote. But I don't understand, what so bad with solovoting? | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
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MoosyDoosy
United States4519 Posts
##Vote TJHuggins | ||
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MoosyDoosy
United States4519 Posts
Even if he's trying to get me to interact, he should present his argument in a way that would make me take it seriously. By taking his argument back in his very next post, I feel absolutely no inclination to respond since he says he thinks I'm townie anyway. Also, his filter before I started questioning him is garbage so I don't see why he finds an issue with me beginning to question him. I merely saw an opportunity to ask Ghandi a question especially since he hadn't really been productive before so I wanted to see what he would say. So this is for Ghandi: Can you explain the reason for your sudden switch in saying I'm a townie out of nowhere? Before your post against me, you had been insinuating that I wasn't a townie by saying that you didn't trust me: On July 13 2015 08:55 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Sorry about being useless/afk, small stuff that takes priority came up. From now on I have my full attention on the game, will drop in my current reads (spoilers; I don't trust Moose) later. Then you make your long post against me but back out of it in the very next post. There's no indication of a changing thought process in between so I'm curious as to your reaction. At least TJHuggins on the other hand strongly believed I was Mafia and had strong words about how the votes turned out. | ||
GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
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MoosyDoosy
United States4519 Posts
On July 15 2015 10:33 GhandiEAGLE wrote: I can. I thought about it more. I'd gone back and forth on it a few times, and that was one of those instances. I changed my mind on it after that long post before anyone else talked about it. I still don't have a strong pull on you on way or the other, though, which is why I didn't put you on my definitive town list last time I made a large post. What about Grokken's post? He basically concluded that I couldn't be Mafia in the post right after your post against me. | ||
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Tictock
United States6051 Posts
On July 15 2015 03:00 Half the Sky wrote: Yeh sorry.....I'm working until 2200. I'm getting hosed this week prior to flying out to NYC. But I will put aside some time to post. Largely the TLDR version is that Ghandi looks significantly worse, Scott needs to fill in the gaps with his scumreads, his fear read on me is normal considering that he was on a scumteam where I (more or less) carried, and TJH is still poor, Grokken is slightly better, just skimming I need to get a firmer read on SW, WP and Tictock, the last of whom is concerning from a fear read (read: Holy Guardians) standpoint. The real question for me is whether I want to lynch TJH or Ghandi. WP seems okay for a newbie though. SW is the one I had a prior concern on. I observed that game and I want to cross compare points from that game, but from what I recall, the big problem was that you had milo who was guilty of TMI, Chocolate and Templar were too easy to lynch because they WERE pretty scummy and then Damdred and VE were both playing suboptimally and Scott was also easily mislynched. So basically in this game the way to prevent that with any potential player is if the town stays cohesive it will be harder for scum to hide. There was a Dutch newbie who was playing pretty well enough to not get MLed (in fact he got NKed N2 which was weird in of itself) and ritoky was also doing well but those two were offed pretty quickly. In a game where town plays suboptimally it will be much harder, based on meta you have to find out whether a player really believes someone is scum or is just trying to push an easy mislynch. Right now there aren't many standing out from the crowd so I'm thinking at this point in time Tic would be an easy read. If there's something you recall from HG that jumps out to you regarding Tictock shout. I do need to look at him in detail. Aww, it's oddly good to hear you have a fear read on me due to the HG game. You earlier stated you thought I'd be an easy read since you coached me in the game before HG. 2 things. First town has a huge leg up from where HG started. In that game town managed to Mislynch their only blue role and then had to go forward without any assistance from role info. Second, you guys managed to catch Sulf as the GF D1 this game. Which not only means town is in a solid place but if there is a Cop we can trust their checks. Past that you get no help from me on how to read my meta ^.^ To be honest I'm not sure I know myself. | ||
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Tictock
United States6051 Posts
On July 15 2015 08:50 n00bKing wrote: I don't know, but I wanna find out! ##Vote: TJHuggins Would love to see some more votes on TJ, just to push him into carrying through with posting his "essential information." Heh, I was thinking the exact opposite right now n00b... Was wondering if the votes shifted off TJ if he would follow up on that or not. Since you just put reminded everyone of that post I'll leave my vote on TJ with ya to push for that info as well. As I mentioned earlier I'm also totally ok with the Ghandi lynch as well. Ghandi's last post pushing Grok didn't do much to change my read on him. | ||
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Tictock
United States6051 Posts
On July 15 2015 08:55 silentwarrior wrote: I didn't solo vote at the time i voted, noobking changed his vote. But I don't understand, what so bad with solovoting? The issue with solo voting is that it makes it harder to look at vote counts after a flip. Ideally you want 2 solid wagons so that when you hit on scum you can start to figuer out which players on the opposing wagon are likely scum and which, if any, are scum bussing a teammate. I'm pretty guilty of throwing my vote out solo in past newbie games, so I understand the temptation to ignore the majority and vote for your own reads. However if you think about it all it really does it make it easier for scum to swing the votes in their favor. Maybe HtS can answer a little better, also I'm sure there is someplace on the interwebs that has in depth talk about what is good for voteing patterns as town. My counter question to get you thinking about it more, what do you think could be good about solovoting? | ||
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Tictock
United States6051 Posts
On July 15 2015 04:29 Half the Sky wrote: I think the lynch today should be either of TJH or Ghandi. Percentage play it might be safer to lynch Ghandi based on his tentative read on TJH and then if the flip holds true then go after TJH unless there is stronger evidence for another player based on the flip - I know Grokken is saying Scott is liable and I'll comment on that shortly but you have to also connect Scott's filter to Ghandi's to also make that association. (This does not make Grokken mafia btw) But unless there is an overriding reason you always side with percentage play analysis and Sulfurus didn't leave too much behind post-lynch. Whether you believe Scott or TJH is the final mafia you have to go with percentage play. ##unvote ##vote GhandiEAGLE I overall agree with your post here (as with most of your posts this game) HtS. However I'm wondering if you could explain what you mean by percentage play here. | ||
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Tictock
United States6051 Posts
On July 15 2015 05:24 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Right now, I'm still thinking Grokken is the scummiest. Main reason is right here Acting defensively is something a lot of people would do when suddenly accused of being mafia; to me it's not really good proof unless the person is doing it an extreme amount, which I wasn't. Bringing something new to the table isn't something you did either in this post, so unless you're calling yourself scum, rehashing what other people have said isn't really a good reason to suspect (necessarily). Thirdly, I said that I didn't want to lynch Moosy until Day 3. The reason I voted for him was to get him talking more and getting him into the game. But disagreeing with your points isn't what's scummy to me. What's scummy is that you jumped on the first bandwagon that had nothing to do with supposedly likely scum, TJ. You issued a short, uninformative paragraph, and then immediately voted for me before even the original accuser, Fidei, did. To me this just seems like opportunistic play that would side yourself with a clear town, give you little to no culpability when I turn up town after a lynch, and still allow you to have a time in your filter where you seemed proactive in a town role, so as to be another defense later. That seems scummy to me. Additionally, you held a vote on Moosy. You said it was because you weren't present at the final vote, but I have no reason to believe this. A lot of other people can be held to this too, so you're not alone here; however, it doesn't help you. I'm more or less in the dark about who the scummers are, but as far as my reads go you're the scummiest. Also it's pretty safe to say attempting to get Moosy to participate didn't work out at all. Meh. ##Vote: Grokken This is a pretty bad post imo, and the reasons to vote for Grok are flimsy at best. Acting defensively is something a lot of people would do when suddenly accused of being mafia That is about the only statement that I totally agree with. Town can, and should, defend themselves against a push just as much as Scum will want to. Bringing something new to the table isn't something you did either in this post, so unless you're calling yourself scum, rehashing what other people have said isn't really a good reason to suspect (necessarily). This seems to be Ghandi's main point, but the bolded part really only seems to be included to open up his next point. Otherwise he doesn't back up when he thinks rehashing is a scum tell. What's scummy is that you jumped on the first bandwagon that had nothing to do with supposedly likely scum, TJ. You issued a short, uninformative paragraph, and then immediately voted for me before even the original accuser, Fidei, did. So in one paragraph Ganhdi says that rehashing other peoples points isn't a good way to scum read people, then goes ahead and makes Grok's sheep on Fedei his main reason for this scum read. Whats the differentiating factor here? When is it ok and when is is scummy? Also the part I bolded here is funny wording. Ghandi isn't saying that Grok is voting according to his own reads (which would be a scum tell) but that Grok not voting with what is the thread sentiment is scummy. That makes little sense to me. It also is worded in such a way to suggest Ghandi doesn't really think that TJ is scum, yet in his last posts mentioning TJ he seemed to be scumreading him. The last paragraph about Grok voting for MD D1 is meh. First off we we don't know MD's alignment yet so the people voting for him are not at all scummy for doing so, it really should be if Grok's vote matches up with his EoD reads not just who he voted for, especially when we don't know the alignment of who he voted for (in this case MD). I'm more or less in the dark about who the scummers are, but as far as my reads go you're the scummiest. I will give Ghandi credit that Grok was his top scum read in his last reads post here. However saying that Grok is the scummiest player atm and that he has no other scum reads right now just continues to scream mafia to me. This whole post honestly reads to me like a forced read to "bring something new to the table". | ||
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Tictock
United States6051 Posts
What is it that is making you think TJ might be town? Also, in regards to this statement rehashing what other people have said isn't really a good reason to suspect (necessarily) Whats the "necessarily"? When do you think it is ok for people to rehash what others say and when isn't it? I realize in my last post I was possibly over simplifying by assuming rehashing what others say is more or less the same as sheeping someone. | ||
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Onegu
United States9695 Posts
Day 2 Vote Count GhandiEAGLE(4): Grokken, Fidei86, Half the Sky, silentwarrior TJHuggins(3): Ticktock, Noobking, MoosyDoosy Grokken(1): GhandiEAGLE Not Voting(3): , WonnaPlay, scott31337, TJHuggins Reminder Voting is done here. It is mandatory to vote. Not doing so will result in a warning a second non vote will result in a modkill and action taken against you in the Mafia ban thread. Currently GhandiEAGLE is set to be lynched with 4 votes. Day 1 ends in PLEASE REMEMBER THAT IT IS MANDATORY TO VOTE. | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On July 14 2015 08:09 GhandiEAGLE wrote: I think Moosy is either playing a really abysmal town, or is scum. I'm still not sold enough to vote (I realize I say that a lot), but honestly constantly deflecting suspicion with sarcasm. Despite that sarcasm, he doesn't do shit for the town. But then, at the end of his wall of text, he says: On July 14 2015 08:09 GhandiEAGLE wrote: I need meaningful contribution from Moosey or I'm not likely moving off of my vote without heavy evidence on someone else. ##Vote: MoosyDoosy Not sold enough to vote against him. But then he votes against him. And says he won't move his vote off of him without "heavy evidence" on someone else. Despite this, just a few posts later, he says: On July 14 2015 08:12 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Filler and waffle is over, I've started making legit posts again. Waffle is over, huh? "I'm still not sold enough to vote." *Votes* How are you going to tell us that you're all done waffling, when you can't keep from changing your position between the start of a post and the end of that same post? Also "too scummy to be scum" is his read on HtS, from Page 22. He says "Untouchable right now. No fun there :<" Which reads kinda like "I sure would like to see HtS lynched, but I know I can't make that happen." No mafia member could make this post without realizing how terrible it sounds, right? His read on Scott probably isn't "too scummy to be scum" but his certainty that a player who HASN'T PLAYED is town might be what people sometimes call "TMI." At the time of Ghandi's reads post, there wasn't much incentive for him to try and get Scott lynched. It's not like Scott is going to hurt the scum team, with the amount of "work" he had done up to that point. So it's an easy opportunity to go ahead and townread a town player, since that player isn't one you really need to get rid of anyway. Ghandi's post on Page 25, where he moves his vote to Grokken, says that one of the reasons he's scumreading Grokken is that he left his vote on Moosy during Day 1, in the Moosy vs. Sulfurus race. But Ghandi was himself voting against Moosy on Day TWO, so...? Ghandi's "neutral" read on me is particularly damning. He says that he doesn't like my filter, but as HtS pointed out, if he wants to go against thread sentiment, he should probably explain his reasoning (and since he's not on the Newbie list, he should possibly know better). Even if it was true that he disliked my filter (and he was able to explain why), it still doesn't make sense to say that my bad filter and my participation in Sulfurus' lynch "cancel each other out." It was MY vote that put the Godfather in a casket. You could feel free to say that Half the Sky's arguments against Sulfurus convinced more people than mine did, but it was still my vote that ultimately killed him. That's heavily town-indicative, and it would take a REALLY scummy filter to "cancel it out" and leave me as neutral. And this post (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/488742-newbie-student-mafia-xii?page=13#255) was probably SOME sort of factor, in getting us a Red flip on Day 1. So finding a Town justification for null-reading me looks pretty tough, I think. But if I try to think of a Scum justification for null-reading me, it's a little easier. If the scum team does indeed know that there is a Doctor in the game, then they will probably continue to be uncomfortable with the idea of attacking me or HtS, just as they appeared to be uncomfortable during Night 1 (and killed Kelsier instead, even though he was not being town-read AS strongly as HtS and myself). If they know that trying to Night-kill me will always be a crapshoot (so long as the Doctor is still alive) then they have to try to get me lynched, or endgame me. But to try to endgame me, they have to endgame HtS too, because she's not getting lynched ever (based on how thread sentiment is crediting her with being the largest reason Sulfurus was lynched). And yes, they could endgame us both at once (2 against 2) but you would HATE to have to already pick 2 players to let survive to the finish, when it's this early in the game. So maybe the plan was to endgame HtS + someone else. Leave open the possibility of getting me mislynched later, and then night-kill Kelsier and fidei. Ghandi is townreading fidei much more strongly than he's townreading me. Which doesn't make any sense to me at all, unless the plan is to night-kill fidei, and see whether the town will ever warm up to the idea of mislynching me. Ghandi is probably scum, even though he's "too scummy to actually be scum." Would still like to see TJ take the vote lead, and get the "essential information" he teased us with. Anyone who fails to deliver on a promise like that deserves the noose. | ||
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WonnaPlay
Netherlands912 Posts
On July 15 2015 04:03 Half the Sky wrote:- Regarding your Scott/Ghandi/TJH reads, between Scott and Ghandi, who is MORE likely to be scum? And how do you know Ghandi, being the worse of the two from your perpective isn't BSing about Scott? My gut feeling just keeps screaming that Scott is scum, the things I said in my list and then to add this : On July 15 2015 07:18 scott31337 wrote: Yayy I'm dead in the other game so I can concentrate on this one now - I'll do some buttkicking tonight after house cleaning. Hope he'll come back before nightfall and really do post something constructive, but 4 out of 7 of his posts are in the context of "I'll reread and post something later", which is a staggering 57,1%.. If I would look at the direct question : "who is MORE likely to be scum?" ; it would be Ghandi. My rationale can't ignore Ghandi, and since Scott has said so little, it is just a hunge. For Ghandi, I think there are solid points to question his alignment. I will vote for GhandiEagle if everything stays like this, but I'll join n00bking's request for putting pressure on TJH, since I'm also really interested in what he has to say for himself. I think that, if TJH doesn't get pressured into expanding on his thoughts, he won't post them at all. So therefore I will vote for him at this moment, eventhough he is not on top of my scumlist. ##Vote TJHuggins | ||
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
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