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On October 13 2014 07:44 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 07:43 Requizen wrote:On October 13 2014 07:39 ketchup wrote:On October 13 2014 07:36 WaveofShadow wrote:
Talk of modkilling stops here. It is extremely unproductive. MB is not going to be modkilled. We are going to talk about which scum we are going to lynch today.
I feel a lot better about my vote on Jeff right now---I didn't really consider his taunting me earlier particularly scummy because that's a tactic I've only ever see more experienced scum use but I feel it's possible. The fact that he's leaving his explanations/defenses until right at the end of the day to force a scramble for majority is pretty anti-town as well. He has also shown he doesn't give any fucks about this game at all so I can think of no good reason to keep him around, even if he is town.
Would you want Jeff in a 3-man LYLO?
Vote accordingly, people. You aren't a mod, stop trying to dictate how this game goes. Until a mod comes out and tells me this isn't allowed, I will definitely keep posting about it. The mod kill discussion was 100% legit because of this random ass move to jump on the ghandieagle bandwagon started by you, and followed by Tolkien. On October 13 2014 07:34 MoonBear wrote:
I've been busy zzz. Just because I write like Bill Gross doesn't make me scum. Focus on the people trying to be disruptive instead. Read into what people are doing and not people write on D1 imo since there's so little to read into anyway. You guys are getting so twitchy about each shadow in the forest as if there are ghosts as you drive through and ignoring the wolf howls right outside.
##Vote: GhandiEAGLE This moonbear jump on ghandieagle bandwagon is hilarious. ##Vote: MoonBear This is what makes me vote Wave. The manipulation stops here. Even if he's town, I don't want him to dictate the flow of everything. Don't be caught in a situation where he can turn the town against you with his words. LOL Are you fucking serious right now? Do you honestly think I have had any reason at all to attempt to turn the town against ketchup? I am so incredulous with this. I'd also love to explain to you why you're throwing your vote away and making it easier for scum but RAWRR FIGHT THE POWER I guess so you won't listen I assume.
Doesn't matter about ketchup. You're not playing the Town game, you're playing the "Wave knows better than everyone and you should listen to him" game.
I'd rather "waste" my vote than jump on someone I don't believe in. And your push to get a single vote off of you when you're in no danger of getting lynched is really desperate imo.
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Out for dinner with the gf but still watching. I feel bad for MB I don't get scum vibe from him.
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Now is the time that I can start forming real opinions. Review and lurks/response posts tonight, bigger post tomorrow.
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Maybe it's just early for a lot of people, but this thread should not be this dead during the night. Town needs to be discussing the action for the next day and posting discussion about yesterday's failed lynching.
I have a large post coming soon, don't make me double.
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On October 13 2014 23:55 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 23:29 Requizen wrote:
Maybe it's just early for a lot of people, but this thread should not be this dead during the night. Town needs to be discussing the action for the next day and posting discussion about yesterday's failed lynching.
I have a large post coming soon, don't make me double. Oh hmm. I wonder why it's so quiet. Better lynch me tomorrow guys, I'm only around to spread chaos and discord.
On October 14 2014 00:15 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 00:12 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
I think how defensive Wave is getting is further proof that he's scum.
Just personally.
If I were scum on the chopping block, I think I'd try to make people feel stupid for even thinking I were scum. 'Proof' I dunno I just have to decide if I'm annoyed enough with how people in this game have been playing to let you all attempt to lynch me, lose the game but be vindicated, or whether I actually care more about winning. Probably the latter.
This is martyring. I get that you're pissy about us calling you out for being controlling and nitpicking new players, but get your head in the game. If you're that disappointed in the game and players, you can an hero at any time.
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On October 14 2014 00:48 jcarlsoniv wrote:
But here's the thing wave. You took a lead in town position just because your first post was a "follow me to victory" post. You've been very aggressive yes, but you've also been pretty defensive in the face of any criticism. You were incredibly indecisive for the rest of the day, keeping your vote unplaced for longer time than I'd expect after you criticized me early game for not placing my vote. On top of that, you wanted to enact some last minute "shenannies". A scum wave would absolutely know how to manipulate a newbie town, so excuse the town for not trusting your "judgement" thus far.
This is largely how I'm feeling. Wave, your actions are suspicious. You're quick to jump on other people's posting because they don't line up with what you like, yet when people do the same to you, your defense and martyr shield comes up very quickly*. You also have used posts claimed to be "noob moves", such as claiming VT as your first D1 post and causing arguments instead of converstaion.
These actions make you scummy. You're quick to accuse people of starting chaos when you, yourself, have been causing a clamor. Rather than helping the town progress naturally, you are either:
a) Town and trying to force the Town to play your way
or
b) Scum and doing Scum things
Both are bad, one is grounds for lynching. And, if you are Town, then all you're doing is drawing death N1.
+ Show Spoiler +*But, knowing your personality, you're not the type to take criticism easily, much like myself. Even if you don't want to admit it, this may be just your natural reaction.
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That said, I think my focus has been too largely on Wave lately. This in and of itself makes me think Scum, using himself as a distraction for other Scum.
Time to go into filters and weed out my town.
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I would gladly lead discussion. My desire at this point is to get as much information in the air before D2. If someone has ideas/feels/a train of logic and gets night killed before posting it, then the town is worse off than it is otherwise.
Keeping information to yourself is the same as being a Goon.
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To that end I'm going to go through filters and post my thoughts given the results of last night. I will skim through somewhat quickly, as the thread is fairly large, so link me to anything I may miss about a person. They will come as the day progresses.
At the moment, my two biggest Scum reads are still Wave and LordyT. Partially left over from last night, partially because my reasoning still feels good to me. Wave because what I posted above, LordT for the reasons I discussed yesterday. Additionally:
-his early "role call" was highly suspicious
-His list of players is highly iffy. Knowing that MoonBear was VT and (myself) knowing I am not scum, he noted us as scummy. Knowing that he and Wave are on my watchlist, he noted them as townish. And he calls Alzadar scum for "not paying attention to him", which is very much attention drawing.
-His vote changed plenty enough for me to be suspicious. I understand using votes as pressure, but he jumped to many people I don't find suspicious/think may very well be town, and he helped push the MoonBear train pretty hard.
These two are my top picks atm. Please respond with criticism/discussion, or if you are the accused respond with your rebuttal.
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On October 14 2014 01:14 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 23:55 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 13 2014 23:29 Requizen wrote:
Maybe it's just early for a lot of people, but this thread should not be this dead during the night. Town needs to be discussing the action for the next day and posting discussion about yesterday's failed lynching.
I have a large post coming soon, don't make me double. Oh hmm. I wonder why it's so quiet. Better lynch me tomorrow guys, I'm only around to spread chaos and discord. Now you sound like day 1 Req.  Other than that... welp. I was going to feel bad about lynching Moonbear (although more because his post upon returning seemed to imply RL stuff in the way of him playing) but then there was this Isaac-styled Night post and I had to laugh. Damnit Dandel. I still stand by my choice not to switch my vote, not because I necessarily think Ghandi is town too but because of the mess that discussion caused. I've got some opinions, but there's potential for them to drastically change once night actions are revealed so I'll keep the analysis/"update" for tomorrow. As for what happened in-between, few things I'd like to point out: Alzadar, not that I think you defending Wave is suspicious, but at this point I don't think it'll bring much. Since our goal isn't to keep the whole town alive but to lynch scum, it's better for us to accuse than to protect. The exception is when we're close to the deadline and we believe the current lynch is a contributing certified-town; the next deadline is 50+ hours away and I personally don't think Wave's in any real danger to be lynched, so we're better off letting that slide for now.  Cixah is most likely certified townie. If I understand the roles well, as scum the best he could do would be to convince a vigilante to shoot a townie tonight, then get lynched day 2 (a poisoner would be able to cancel his kill night 2 upon seeing Cixah flip red). That means we can be sure of Cixah's intentions whenever he posts, and there's never going to be any point to challenge them. However that doesn't mean that everything he says is right. I'm not saying I find your reads useless or wrong Cixah, I just want to remind people so as to reduce the chances of sheeping/bandwagoning using your certified status as an excuse. I consider no one certified, but 6er is low on my watchlist. The IC claim was strange, but understandable.
Acutally strike that. I need to read his filter. IC is totes a strange claim, but if you take it from the perspective that he is scum: everyone is claiming VT and/or complaining about people claiming VT - he claims IC in response, makes him stand out of the crowd, but doesn't draw attention as much as other claims. Subtle, if scum. Otherwise luck/town.Wave, as the post I quoted indicates, you're acting a bit contrary to what I expected from you-especially because you're a vet and you've probably dealt with mafia noobs already. Could be you having a lot on your plate lately (you seemed to imply so in the offtopic GD) and I can understand that. However, if you're feeling frustrated because you're getting your experience challenged by the very ignorants you're trying to raise properly, think of it as training for the pebble's teen years. Could also be you exaggerating (because you still don't like the way we play) to amplify the whole situation and get bigger reactions from us. Your and especially Tolkien's behaviour over day 1 made me more aware of these possibilities. In that case I'm wondering what kind of reaction you're trying to cause exactly. (For the record I'm leaning toward the latter, also because being paranoid seems like a healthy mindset atm, I just wanted to make the joke. At least I didn't accuse you of WIFOMing us with the "do you think I'm good enough to mastermind you all?" instead. ;p) Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 00:56 Requizen wrote:
That said, I think my focus has been too largely on Wave lately. This in and of itself makes me think Scum, using himself as a distraction for other Scum.
Time to go into filters and weed out my town. I'm a bit perplexed by the association "I pay too much attention to Wave" => "Wave is scummy". I mean, he can certainly try to manipulate people in that direction, but whether or not you fall for it depends on you more than on him, don't you think? Just a quick observation, I agree with your intention to broaden who you're looking at (waiting for a bit more Coma/mordek myself, now that owb came out the woodwork). (On that topic, filters are weird. I looked at everyone's length after people mentioned Soniv said "enough" because I thought he wasn't very present, and he's actually got 5 pages. Oo And I only have 2 myself, despite feeling like I spammed.) Fuck that post ends up revolving a bunch around Wave in the end, although indirectly. Whatever, I still think my points have value so here it is.
Scum!Wave's vie to draw attention works => we pay attention to him => other scum get to lead votes unattended. A simple train of thought but one worth considering.
On October 14 2014 01:19 WaveofShadow wrote:Join the discussion we're about to have, Alaric. Don't disappear. + Show Spoiler +
Regarding me, there's something you didn't quite consider---one, I've never played a game where I was almost the only one with any real experience. Yes paranoia is healthy to some degree, but not at the expense of logic, which is what I believe some people are doing here. Also consider that from my POV (assume I'm town for this) the paranoia is also preventing anyone from actually listening to and considering what I have to say.
Though, we must also consider that Town!Wave just doesn't really know how to handle himself in a noob game. He may be getting frustrated and his actions may just be because he's used to better players.
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On October 14 2014 01:27 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 01:20 Requizen wrote:To that end I'm going to go through filters and post my thoughts given the results of last night. I will skim through somewhat quickly, as the thread is fairly large, so link me to anything I may miss about a person. They will come as the day progresses. At the moment, my two biggest Scum reads are still Wave and LordyT. Partially left over from last night, partially because my reasoning still feels good to me. Wave because what I posted above, LordT for the reasons I discussed yesterday. Additionally: -his early "role call" was highly suspicious -His list of players is highly iffy. Knowing that MoonBear was VT and (myself) knowing I am not scum, he noted us as scummy. Knowing that he and Wave are on my watchlist, he noted them as townish. And he calls Alzadar scum for "not paying attention to him", which is very much attention drawing. -His vote changed plenty enough for me to be suspicious. I understand using votes as pressure, but he jumped to many people I don't find suspicious/think may very well be town, and he helped push the MoonBear train pretty hard. These two are my top picks atm. Please respond with criticism/discussion, or if you are the accused respond with your rebuttal. Be careful with the bolded, because that's confirmation bias. Just because someone is wrong, doesn't make them scum (and from my POV, he isn't even necessarily wrong about all of it). As for 'attention drawing' do you think scum typically want to be in the spotlight or avoid it? That also goes for vote switching: why do you think scum is more likely to flip flop in votes? I think I discussed this before but that's a pretty common misunderstanding of mindsets---yes scum are likely to try and jump bandwagons and whatnot but to do so constantly draws attention to their voting patterns. I believe that town is more likely to be switching votes constantly as they are always (and should be) re-evaluating reads constantly/ applying pressure, and most of all they are the one who should not care at all about what they look like to others.I also think you should go back and consider what I wrote about LT/MB interaction. Does it make sense for LT to remove his vote as scum from a likely town mislynch when he did?
Redtext - Scum in spotlight draws attention away from other scum. A Goon drawing attention away from Godfather/Vigilante/Poisoner is doing a good job of helping Scum win, even if he dies. Though, that depends on if the player considers a team win still a win despite their own well-being.
Bold - Starting bandwagons against non-scum causes town infighting. Town infighting leads to lynching VTs. In MB's case it didn't matter, he was mostly lynched due to inactivity/no responses to his situation, but worth considering.
Italics - I disagree. I think votepressure is a bad tactic, since unnecessary pressure leads to people suspecting where there is nothing. This is less bandwagoning and more angry mob - one person gets accused, has no response/poor response, everyone jumps on them for not doing it right -> death. Angry mobs don't build towns, they kill innocents.
Underline - It makes sense for Scum!LT to get off of a MB mislynch. It gives a fallback "I didn't vote for lynching the VT!" in the future. For Town!LT, it's a different case.
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On October 14 2014 01:41 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 01:35 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2014 01:27 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 01:20 Requizen wrote:To that end I'm going to go through filters and post my thoughts given the results of last night. I will skim through somewhat quickly, as the thread is fairly large, so link me to anything I may miss about a person. They will come as the day progresses. At the moment, my two biggest Scum reads are still Wave and LordyT. Partially left over from last night, partially because my reasoning still feels good to me. Wave because what I posted above, LordT for the reasons I discussed yesterday. Additionally: -his early "role call" was highly suspicious -His list of players is highly iffy. Knowing that MoonBear was VT and (myself) knowing I am not scum, he noted us as scummy. Knowing that he and Wave are on my watchlist, he noted them as townish. And he calls Alzadar scum for "not paying attention to him", which is very much attention drawing. -His vote changed plenty enough for me to be suspicious. I understand using votes as pressure, but he jumped to many people I don't find suspicious/think may very well be town, and he helped push the MoonBear train pretty hard. These two are my top picks atm. Please respond with criticism/discussion, or if you are the accused respond with your rebuttal. Be careful with the bolded, because that's confirmation bias. Just because someone is wrong, doesn't make them scum (and from my POV, he isn't even necessarily wrong about all of it). As for 'attention drawing' do you think scum typically want to be in the spotlight or avoid it? That also goes for vote switching: why do you think scum is more likely to flip flop in votes? I think I discussed this before but that's a pretty common misunderstanding of mindsets---yes scum are likely to try and jump bandwagons and whatnot but to do so constantly draws attention to their voting patterns. I believe that town is more likely to be switching votes constantly as they are always (and should be) re-evaluating reads constantly/ applying pressure, and most of all they are the one who should not care at all about what they look like to others.I also think you should go back and consider what I wrote about LT/MB interaction. Does it make sense for LT to remove his vote as scum from a likely town mislynch when he did? Redtext - Scum in spotlight draws attention away from other scum. A Goon drawing attention away from Godfather/Vigilante/Poisoner is doing a good job of helping Scum win, even if he dies. Though, that depends on if the player considers a team win still a win despite their own well-being. Bold - Starting bandwagons against non-scum causes town infighting. Town infighting leads to lynching VTs. In MB's case it didn't matter, he was mostly lynched due to inactivity/no responses to his situation, but worth considering. Italics - I disagree. I think votepressure is a bad tactic, since unnecessary pressure leads to people suspecting where there is nothing. This is less bandwagoning and more angry mob - one person gets accused, has no response/poor response, everyone jumps on them for not doing it right -> death. Angry mobs don't build towns, they kill innocents. Underline - It makes sense for Scum!LT to get off of a MB mislynch. It gives a fallback "I didn't vote for lynching the VT!" in the future. For Town!LT, it's a different case. Redtext - It's not great scumplay to try and draw attention away from other people when there's no one to draw attention away from who was in danger at the point that he was trying to protect exactly? It's D1 and the lynch is so high up in the air, why draw attention and cause more scrutiny when the lynch could be almost conceivably anyone at that point? Yes your point makes sense to a degree but ONLY if at that point you're danger of losing a stronger player and that very clearly was not the case. Not to mention you're make some pretty huge assumptions about roles here. Bold - I'm not sure what you're basing that on exactly. Bandwagons are exactly how people get lynched, scum OR town. Italics - How is pressure a bad thing? Pressure also can get scum to slip and say something they shouldn't or gets you information you want. Req, a couple of these points are simply you not understanding how the game is played imo---as a VT how else are you supposed to get answers you want? Voting is your ONLY power as a VT. I'm sorry if you don't like me saying that there's stuff you don't understand and given the earlier history I guess I'll understand if you ignore this point, but in the postgame you're welcome to ask anyone who has played a game of mafia and they'll tell you the same. You are simply wrong here. Vore pressure does not always lead to an angry mob situation. Underline- it doesn't make sense for him to get off when he did.
Maybe I don't understand the meta. But that's my reasoning. To me his actions seemed and still seem suspicious.
You can cause pressure without someone suddenly having 5 votes on them. Take last night for example. Everyone was "pressuing" MB to respond and they all naturally dumped their votes onto him "waiting for an answer", when the only thing he had done that was suspicious was make a dumb post about driving. His lack of an answer got him killed over nothing and all the Townies get to say "well it's not my fault, everyone else voted too". A Townie who jumps onto a pressure vote and kills another non-scum is a) wasting their vote and b) losing the game.
I knew my vote against you wasn't going to get you to talk, since no one else was on there, but I placed it where my feelings were rather than on a random person I wanted to hear talk. And I don't have his verdant green blood on my hands.
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Filter check: OWB
Feeling: Not scum
Posting Habits: Lurking
OWB was away for most of the game and has a very small filter. His vote for no-lynch makes me think town. Scum coming in late, catchup or not, could always fake reading by following their fellow scum's voting patterns. No-lynch makes me think not-scum who was, in fact, distracted. Our reads are different but line up in a couple places. Read logic is pretty good.
Filter check: Ghandi
Feeling: Not scum/who knows
Posting Habits: Shitposting
I don't know if GEagle is actually going to play the game at all right now. There are a couple decent posts in his filter, but a lot of clogging posts about how misunderstood he is (ironic I know given my first few D1 posts) and his normal/shitty one liners.
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On October 14 2014 01:53 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Ahahaha. Req thinks I'm scum.
I wouldnt have a problem with it if the reasoning wasn't so bad. Your picking up on traits which are the EXACT OPPOSITE of what scum wants to do.
lol
Town can't change their minds? Pls.
And really, how are we to read your day one when you spent the entire time moaning then playing the newb card?
I applaud the effort, though the reasoning is poor at best. After analyzing the votecount and general player atmosphere, i figured i needed to steer town off of what was most likely town. And not waste a d1 lynch COUGH COUGH.
Still wouldnt lynch wave or soniv tomorrow.
Also, i take it back. Vigi should shoot today.
I can't say my early posting was super stellar, but if you're going to cling to that to try and discredit me then your opinion goes in the bin. My views don't change just because you say reasoning is bad and leave it at that. But, your response is noted and appreciated. The shittiness of your post is noted as well, as it contrasts starkly with how you were attempting to post previously.
On October 14 2014 01:53 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 01:47 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2014 01:41 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 01:35 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2014 01:27 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 01:20 Requizen wrote:To that end I'm going to go through filters and post my thoughts given the results of last night. I will skim through somewhat quickly, as the thread is fairly large, so link me to anything I may miss about a person. They will come as the day progresses. At the moment, my two biggest Scum reads are still Wave and LordyT. Partially left over from last night, partially because my reasoning still feels good to me. Wave because what I posted above, LordT for the reasons I discussed yesterday. Additionally: -his early "role call" was highly suspicious -His list of players is highly iffy. Knowing that MoonBear was VT and (myself) knowing I am not scum, he noted us as scummy. Knowing that he and Wave are on my watchlist, he noted them as townish. And he calls Alzadar scum for "not paying attention to him", which is very much attention drawing. -His vote changed plenty enough for me to be suspicious. I understand using votes as pressure, but he jumped to many people I don't find suspicious/think may very well be town, and he helped push the MoonBear train pretty hard. These two are my top picks atm. Please respond with criticism/discussion, or if you are the accused respond with your rebuttal. Be careful with the bolded, because that's confirmation bias. Just because someone is wrong, doesn't make them scum (and from my POV, he isn't even necessarily wrong about all of it). As for 'attention drawing' do you think scum typically want to be in the spotlight or avoid it? That also goes for vote switching: why do you think scum is more likely to flip flop in votes? I think I discussed this before but that's a pretty common misunderstanding of mindsets---yes scum are likely to try and jump bandwagons and whatnot but to do so constantly draws attention to their voting patterns. I believe that town is more likely to be switching votes constantly as they are always (and should be) re-evaluating reads constantly/ applying pressure, and most of all they are the one who should not care at all about what they look like to others.I also think you should go back and consider what I wrote about LT/MB interaction. Does it make sense for LT to remove his vote as scum from a likely town mislynch when he did? Redtext - Scum in spotlight draws attention away from other scum. A Goon drawing attention away from Godfather/Vigilante/Poisoner is doing a good job of helping Scum win, even if he dies. Though, that depends on if the player considers a team win still a win despite their own well-being. Bold - Starting bandwagons against non-scum causes town infighting. Town infighting leads to lynching VTs. In MB's case it didn't matter, he was mostly lynched due to inactivity/no responses to his situation, but worth considering. Italics - I disagree. I think votepressure is a bad tactic, since unnecessary pressure leads to people suspecting where there is nothing. This is less bandwagoning and more angry mob - one person gets accused, has no response/poor response, everyone jumps on them for not doing it right -> death. Angry mobs don't build towns, they kill innocents. Underline - It makes sense for Scum!LT to get off of a MB mislynch. It gives a fallback "I didn't vote for lynching the VT!" in the future. For Town!LT, it's a different case. Redtext - It's not great scumplay to try and draw attention away from other people when there's no one to draw attention away from who was in danger at the point that he was trying to protect exactly? It's D1 and the lynch is so high up in the air, why draw attention and cause more scrutiny when the lynch could be almost conceivably anyone at that point? Yes your point makes sense to a degree but ONLY if at that point you're danger of losing a stronger player and that very clearly was not the case. Not to mention you're make some pretty huge assumptions about roles here. Bold - I'm not sure what you're basing that on exactly. Bandwagons are exactly how people get lynched, scum OR town. Italics - How is pressure a bad thing? Pressure also can get scum to slip and say something they shouldn't or gets you information you want. Req, a couple of these points are simply you not understanding how the game is played imo---as a VT how else are you supposed to get answers you want? Voting is your ONLY power as a VT. I'm sorry if you don't like me saying that there's stuff you don't understand and given the earlier history I guess I'll understand if you ignore this point, but in the postgame you're welcome to ask anyone who has played a game of mafia and they'll tell you the same. You are simply wrong here. Vore pressure does not always lead to an angry mob situation. Underline- it doesn't make sense for him to get off when he did. Maybe I don't understand the meta. But that's my reasoning. To me his actions seemed and still seem suspicious. You can cause pressure without someone suddenly having 5 votes on them. Take last night for example. Everyone was "pressuing" MB to respond and they all naturally dumped their votes onto him "waiting for an answer", when the only thing he had done that was suspicious was make a dumb post about driving. His lack of an answer got him killed over nothing and all the Townies get to say "well it's not my fault, everyone else voted too". A Townie who jumps onto a pressure vote and kills another non-scum is a) wasting their vote and b) losing the game. I knew my vote against you wasn't going to get you to talk, since no one else was on there, but I placed it where my feelings were rather than on a random person I wanted to hear talk. And I don't have his verdant green blood on my hands. I posit that it wasn't lack of MB responding later on that got him killed, rather his general attitude and the early case against him/lack of reads without responding to those when he had plenty of time to do so. People had already made up their minds long before that became 'pressuring.' Look at soniv for example. Look at how many people DIDN'T vote MB and said 'I may move my vote over to him when such-and-such' happens. All the blame though can't be place on MB though, scum and town are both to blame as well. I personally believe the wagon had a decent scum push/following to it, and town were not willing to look past MB's early faults and consider the points I had brought up about MB's aggression (less so the blue stuff because I brought it up late). As for the bolded neither do I but you don't see people willing to clear me for it, do you? As far as voting patterns go, in my experience it is way more likely for scum to spread out their votes than to pile on---solo voting is a big no-no as was explained a little earlier. (up to you again if you consider that useful or not). I have a fair idea that you're town but obstinately voting outside the group is an easy way for scum to absolve themselves of responsibility like you are doing. This goes for me as well since I was voting Asmo.
I understand that there were definitely people on MB for their own reasons, but I didn't agree with them.
Scum piling on is definitely a reasonable strategy - especially if they switch once the bandwagon gets going. Scum who jump around a lot can "randomly" all pile onto one person together to "create pressure", then when the mob forms, slip off onto scattered others and it will not seem out of the ordinary for them. To start an angry mob, you need more than one person, after all.
Still, I don't know if scum in this game is that organized. But if they were, it's a perfectly reasonable tactic.
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On October 14 2014 02:07 Lord Tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 02:04 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2014 01:53 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Ahahaha. Req thinks I'm scum.
I wouldnt have a problem with it if the reasoning wasn't so bad. Your picking up on traits which are the EXACT OPPOSITE of what scum wants to do.
lol
Town can't change their minds? Pls.
And really, how are we to read your day one when you spent the entire time moaning then playing the newb card?
I applaud the effort, though the reasoning is poor at best. After analyzing the votecount and general player atmosphere, i figured i needed to steer town off of what was most likely town. And not waste a d1 lynch COUGH COUGH.
Still wouldnt lynch wave or soniv tomorrow.
Also, i take it back. Vigi should shoot today. I can't say my early posting was super stellar, but if you're going to cling to that to try and discredit me then your opinion goes in the bin. My views don't change just because you say reasoning is bad and leave it at that. But, your response is noted and appreciated. The shittiness of your post is noted as well, as it contrasts starkly with how you were attempting to post previously. On October 14 2014 01:53 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 01:47 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2014 01:41 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 01:35 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2014 01:27 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 01:20 Requizen wrote:To that end I'm going to go through filters and post my thoughts given the results of last night. I will skim through somewhat quickly, as the thread is fairly large, so link me to anything I may miss about a person. They will come as the day progresses. At the moment, my two biggest Scum reads are still Wave and LordyT. Partially left over from last night, partially because my reasoning still feels good to me. Wave because what I posted above, LordT for the reasons I discussed yesterday. Additionally: -his early "role call" was highly suspicious -His list of players is highly iffy. Knowing that MoonBear was VT and (myself) knowing I am not scum, he noted us as scummy. Knowing that he and Wave are on my watchlist, he noted them as townish. And he calls Alzadar scum for "not paying attention to him", which is very much attention drawing. -His vote changed plenty enough for me to be suspicious. I understand using votes as pressure, but he jumped to many people I don't find suspicious/think may very well be town, and he helped push the MoonBear train pretty hard. These two are my top picks atm. Please respond with criticism/discussion, or if you are the accused respond with your rebuttal. Be careful with the bolded, because that's confirmation bias. Just because someone is wrong, doesn't make them scum (and from my POV, he isn't even necessarily wrong about all of it). As for 'attention drawing' do you think scum typically want to be in the spotlight or avoid it? That also goes for vote switching: why do you think scum is more likely to flip flop in votes? I think I discussed this before but that's a pretty common misunderstanding of mindsets---yes scum are likely to try and jump bandwagons and whatnot but to do so constantly draws attention to their voting patterns. I believe that town is more likely to be switching votes constantly as they are always (and should be) re-evaluating reads constantly/ applying pressure, and most of all they are the one who should not care at all about what they look like to others.I also think you should go back and consider what I wrote about LT/MB interaction. Does it make sense for LT to remove his vote as scum from a likely town mislynch when he did? Redtext - Scum in spotlight draws attention away from other scum. A Goon drawing attention away from Godfather/Vigilante/Poisoner is doing a good job of helping Scum win, even if he dies. Though, that depends on if the player considers a team win still a win despite their own well-being. Bold - Starting bandwagons against non-scum causes town infighting. Town infighting leads to lynching VTs. In MB's case it didn't matter, he was mostly lynched due to inactivity/no responses to his situation, but worth considering. Italics - I disagree. I think votepressure is a bad tactic, since unnecessary pressure leads to people suspecting where there is nothing. This is less bandwagoning and more angry mob - one person gets accused, has no response/poor response, everyone jumps on them for not doing it right -> death. Angry mobs don't build towns, they kill innocents. Underline - It makes sense for Scum!LT to get off of a MB mislynch. It gives a fallback "I didn't vote for lynching the VT!" in the future. For Town!LT, it's a different case. Redtext - It's not great scumplay to try and draw attention away from other people when there's no one to draw attention away from who was in danger at the point that he was trying to protect exactly? It's D1 and the lynch is so high up in the air, why draw attention and cause more scrutiny when the lynch could be almost conceivably anyone at that point? Yes your point makes sense to a degree but ONLY if at that point you're danger of losing a stronger player and that very clearly was not the case. Not to mention you're make some pretty huge assumptions about roles here. Bold - I'm not sure what you're basing that on exactly. Bandwagons are exactly how people get lynched, scum OR town. Italics - How is pressure a bad thing? Pressure also can get scum to slip and say something they shouldn't or gets you information you want. Req, a couple of these points are simply you not understanding how the game is played imo---as a VT how else are you supposed to get answers you want? Voting is your ONLY power as a VT. I'm sorry if you don't like me saying that there's stuff you don't understand and given the earlier history I guess I'll understand if you ignore this point, but in the postgame you're welcome to ask anyone who has played a game of mafia and they'll tell you the same. You are simply wrong here. Vore pressure does not always lead to an angry mob situation. Underline- it doesn't make sense for him to get off when he did. Maybe I don't understand the meta. But that's my reasoning. To me his actions seemed and still seem suspicious. You can cause pressure without someone suddenly having 5 votes on them. Take last night for example. Everyone was "pressuing" MB to respond and they all naturally dumped their votes onto him "waiting for an answer", when the only thing he had done that was suspicious was make a dumb post about driving. His lack of an answer got him killed over nothing and all the Townies get to say "well it's not my fault, everyone else voted too". A Townie who jumps onto a pressure vote and kills another non-scum is a) wasting their vote and b) losing the game. I knew my vote against you wasn't going to get you to talk, since no one else was on there, but I placed it where my feelings were rather than on a random person I wanted to hear talk. And I don't have his verdant green blood on my hands. I posit that it wasn't lack of MB responding later on that got him killed, rather his general attitude and the early case against him/lack of reads without responding to those when he had plenty of time to do so. People had already made up their minds long before that became 'pressuring.' Look at soniv for example. Look at how many people DIDN'T vote MB and said 'I may move my vote over to him when such-and-such' happens. All the blame though can't be place on MB though, scum and town are both to blame as well. I personally believe the wagon had a decent scum push/following to it, and town were not willing to look past MB's early faults and consider the points I had brought up about MB's aggression (less so the blue stuff because I brought it up late). As for the bolded neither do I but you don't see people willing to clear me for it, do you? As far as voting patterns go, in my experience it is way more likely for scum to spread out their votes than to pile on---solo voting is a big no-no as was explained a little earlier. (up to you again if you consider that useful or not). I have a fair idea that you're town but obstinately voting outside the group is an easy way for scum to absolve themselves of responsibility like you are doing. This goes for me as well since I was voting Asmo. I understand that there were definitely people on MB for their own reasons, but I didn't agree with them. Scum piling on is definitely a reasonable strategy - especially if they switch once the bandwagon gets going. Scum who jump around a lot can "randomly" all pile onto one person together to "create pressure", then when the mob forms, slip off onto scattered others and it will not seem out of the ordinary for them. To start an angry mob, you need more than one person, after all. Still, I don't know if scum in this game is that organized. But if they were, it's a perfectly reasonable tactic. My posts get significantly worse when im posting on a phone lel. Also it isn't EoN yet so no big reads for scum to latch onto. HF trying to push me though.
None of my post is pushing. I've given my view: you are mostly scum in my book. That likely won't change tonight. If you want to refute it during night that's your call, but it doesn't mean anything until D2 starts.
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On October 14 2014 02:10 Lord Tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 02:09 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2014 02:07 Lord Tolkien wrote:On October 14 2014 02:04 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2014 01:53 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Ahahaha. Req thinks I'm scum.
I wouldnt have a problem with it if the reasoning wasn't so bad. Your picking up on traits which are the EXACT OPPOSITE of what scum wants to do.
lol
Town can't change their minds? Pls.
And really, how are we to read your day one when you spent the entire time moaning then playing the newb card?
I applaud the effort, though the reasoning is poor at best. After analyzing the votecount and general player atmosphere, i figured i needed to steer town off of what was most likely town. And not waste a d1 lynch COUGH COUGH.
Still wouldnt lynch wave or soniv tomorrow.
Also, i take it back. Vigi should shoot today. I can't say my early posting was super stellar, but if you're going to cling to that to try and discredit me then your opinion goes in the bin. My views don't change just because you say reasoning is bad and leave it at that. But, your response is noted and appreciated. The shittiness of your post is noted as well, as it contrasts starkly with how you were attempting to post previously. On October 14 2014 01:53 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 01:47 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2014 01:41 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 01:35 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2014 01:27 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 01:20 Requizen wrote:To that end I'm going to go through filters and post my thoughts given the results of last night. I will skim through somewhat quickly, as the thread is fairly large, so link me to anything I may miss about a person. They will come as the day progresses. At the moment, my two biggest Scum reads are still Wave and LordyT. Partially left over from last night, partially because my reasoning still feels good to me. Wave because what I posted above, LordT for the reasons I discussed yesterday. Additionally: -his early "role call" was highly suspicious -His list of players is highly iffy. Knowing that MoonBear was VT and (myself) knowing I am not scum, he noted us as scummy. Knowing that he and Wave are on my watchlist, he noted them as townish. And he calls Alzadar scum for "not paying attention to him", which is very much attention drawing. -His vote changed plenty enough for me to be suspicious. I understand using votes as pressure, but he jumped to many people I don't find suspicious/think may very well be town, and he helped push the MoonBear train pretty hard. These two are my top picks atm. Please respond with criticism/discussion, or if you are the accused respond with your rebuttal. Be careful with the bolded, because that's confirmation bias. Just because someone is wrong, doesn't make them scum (and from my POV, he isn't even necessarily wrong about all of it). As for 'attention drawing' do you think scum typically want to be in the spotlight or avoid it? That also goes for vote switching: why do you think scum is more likely to flip flop in votes? I think I discussed this before but that's a pretty common misunderstanding of mindsets---yes scum are likely to try and jump bandwagons and whatnot but to do so constantly draws attention to their voting patterns. I believe that town is more likely to be switching votes constantly as they are always (and should be) re-evaluating reads constantly/ applying pressure, and most of all they are the one who should not care at all about what they look like to others.I also think you should go back and consider what I wrote about LT/MB interaction. Does it make sense for LT to remove his vote as scum from a likely town mislynch when he did? Redtext - Scum in spotlight draws attention away from other scum. A Goon drawing attention away from Godfather/Vigilante/Poisoner is doing a good job of helping Scum win, even if he dies. Though, that depends on if the player considers a team win still a win despite their own well-being. Bold - Starting bandwagons against non-scum causes town infighting. Town infighting leads to lynching VTs. In MB's case it didn't matter, he was mostly lynched due to inactivity/no responses to his situation, but worth considering. Italics - I disagree. I think votepressure is a bad tactic, since unnecessary pressure leads to people suspecting where there is nothing. This is less bandwagoning and more angry mob - one person gets accused, has no response/poor response, everyone jumps on them for not doing it right -> death. Angry mobs don't build towns, they kill innocents. Underline - It makes sense for Scum!LT to get off of a MB mislynch. It gives a fallback "I didn't vote for lynching the VT!" in the future. For Town!LT, it's a different case. Redtext - It's not great scumplay to try and draw attention away from other people when there's no one to draw attention away from who was in danger at the point that he was trying to protect exactly? It's D1 and the lynch is so high up in the air, why draw attention and cause more scrutiny when the lynch could be almost conceivably anyone at that point? Yes your point makes sense to a degree but ONLY if at that point you're danger of losing a stronger player and that very clearly was not the case. Not to mention you're make some pretty huge assumptions about roles here. Bold - I'm not sure what you're basing that on exactly. Bandwagons are exactly how people get lynched, scum OR town. Italics - How is pressure a bad thing? Pressure also can get scum to slip and say something they shouldn't or gets you information you want. Req, a couple of these points are simply you not understanding how the game is played imo---as a VT how else are you supposed to get answers you want? Voting is your ONLY power as a VT. I'm sorry if you don't like me saying that there's stuff you don't understand and given the earlier history I guess I'll understand if you ignore this point, but in the postgame you're welcome to ask anyone who has played a game of mafia and they'll tell you the same. You are simply wrong here. Vore pressure does not always lead to an angry mob situation. Underline- it doesn't make sense for him to get off when he did. Maybe I don't understand the meta. But that's my reasoning. To me his actions seemed and still seem suspicious. You can cause pressure without someone suddenly having 5 votes on them. Take last night for example. Everyone was "pressuing" MB to respond and they all naturally dumped their votes onto him "waiting for an answer", when the only thing he had done that was suspicious was make a dumb post about driving. His lack of an answer got him killed over nothing and all the Townies get to say "well it's not my fault, everyone else voted too". A Townie who jumps onto a pressure vote and kills another non-scum is a) wasting their vote and b) losing the game. I knew my vote against you wasn't going to get you to talk, since no one else was on there, but I placed it where my feelings were rather than on a random person I wanted to hear talk. And I don't have his verdant green blood on my hands. I posit that it wasn't lack of MB responding later on that got him killed, rather his general attitude and the early case against him/lack of reads without responding to those when he had plenty of time to do so. People had already made up their minds long before that became 'pressuring.' Look at soniv for example. Look at how many people DIDN'T vote MB and said 'I may move my vote over to him when such-and-such' happens. All the blame though can't be place on MB though, scum and town are both to blame as well. I personally believe the wagon had a decent scum push/following to it, and town were not willing to look past MB's early faults and consider the points I had brought up about MB's aggression (less so the blue stuff because I brought it up late). As for the bolded neither do I but you don't see people willing to clear me for it, do you? As far as voting patterns go, in my experience it is way more likely for scum to spread out their votes than to pile on---solo voting is a big no-no as was explained a little earlier. (up to you again if you consider that useful or not). I have a fair idea that you're town but obstinately voting outside the group is an easy way for scum to absolve themselves of responsibility like you are doing. This goes for me as well since I was voting Asmo. I understand that there were definitely people on MB for their own reasons, but I didn't agree with them. Scum piling on is definitely a reasonable strategy - especially if they switch once the bandwagon gets going. Scum who jump around a lot can "randomly" all pile onto one person together to "create pressure", then when the mob forms, slip off onto scattered others and it will not seem out of the ordinary for them. To start an angry mob, you need more than one person, after all. Still, I don't know if scum in this game is that organized. But if they were, it's a perfectly reasonable tactic. My posts get significantly worse when im posting on a phone lel. Also it isn't EoN yet so no big reads for scum to latch onto. HF trying to push me though. None of my post is pushing. I've given my view: you are mostly scum in my book. That likely won't change tonight. If you want to refute it during night that's your call, but it doesn't mean anything until D2 starts. I dont give a damn what you do or don't think.
Making a post that is tl;dr: "HAHAH YOU THINK I'M SCUM BUT I'M TOTALLY NOT NICE TRY UR DUM HAHAHA" doesn't do you any favors in the clearing your name category nor the not-caring category.
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Filter check: Alaric
Feeling: Unknown/possible scum
Posting Habits: Observation
A good portion of Frenchie's posting is trying to encourage discussion, a lot of asking "name - what do you think of so-and-so?" This is not a bad thing, as encouraging discussion is good for the Town. However, there were relatively few posts with his own opinions. Perhaps he was just waiting for someone to ask him for them as he asks others, but it is worth noting.
I give possible scum, since pointedly asking people to post/critique one another is a very simple and easy way to stir up trouble. Not a particularly clever way to cause town disruption, but one that is effective if left unchecked. Low scum reading, but not 0 at the moment.
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On October 14 2014 02:22 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 02:20 Requizen wrote:
Filter check: Alaric
Feeling: Unknown/possible scum
Posting Habits: Observation
A good portion of Frenchie's posting is trying to encourage discussion, a lot of asking "name - what do you think of so-and-so?" This is not a bad thing, as encouraging discussion is good for the Town. However, there were relatively few posts with his own opinions. Perhaps he was just waiting for someone to ask him for them as he asks others, but it is worth noting.
I give possible scum, since pointedly asking people to post/critique one another is a very simple and easy way to stir up trouble. Not a particularly clever way to cause town disruption, but one that is effective if left unchecked. Low scum reading, but not 0 at the moment. Asking people to talk about others' posts is actually pretty important - it's how you get how people are thinking and reading other people, and it's how you get content out there, which is especially important D1. I still maintain my earlier sentiments of Alaric being pretty townie.
As I said, I tend to be distrusting in these sorts of situations. I don't like letting other people's opinions sway my own when it comes to deception, especially given that their response can be colored differently from mine depending on if they are Scum, Blue, or Green.
As I said, Alaric rates very low on scum for me, but a ~15% rating is still a rating, and now is the time to share information. I don't expect there to be a lot of deaths tonight, but I think it's important to get info out there just in case.
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Filter check: mordek
Feeling: Unknown/low scum likelyhood
Posting Habits: Normal?
I like mordek's posts so far. He posts his feelings without pushing too hard on people, and has been helpful for new players. This could be a play on scum!mordek's part to get on people's good side, or he could just be a good sport. Or he could be town and just doing his thing.
I liked his reads and he didn't sow much or any discord in his D1. He's low on the watchlist.
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Filter check: AsmodeusXI
Feeling: Town
Posting Habits: Reasonable
Asmo's posts give me a green vibe. I'm not trusting him yet, but I in no way have a bad feeling from him. Yes, he voted for MB, but he made that call very early and gave reasoning for it before the train began running. I have not agreed with every call he's made (for example, his aggression towards AFKers and his tirade against Jeff), but I think he's more town and anything.
The only thing that stands out to me is his post after MB flipped green - the anger and regretfulness is in line with his normal posting style, but it only feels a little too forward, as if Mafia!Asmo is trying to force sounding regretful about his decision.
But then, I've started to feel a bit mistrustful of any post that isn't strictly productive towards saving the town.
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EPT
