EPTFranz Liszt - Liebestraum
IV Titanic Mafia: It Has Been a Privilege
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
Franz Liszt - Liebestraum | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On July 20 2014 15:40 kushm4sta wrote: how will people reading their role pm be enforced? Let's hydra. You read the role and I don't, and you can't tell me what our role is. | ||
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Chairman Ray
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Write me a poem about coconuts! | ||
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Chairman Ray
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On July 23 2014 05:41 Xatalos wrote: Hmm. I think I want you to live longer than D1 just for the "Mafia totes alive guis" mass PM. That, and my history of reading you is horrible. I have the vague idea that someone explained your meta to me in a recent game so I'll search for that. If we had two lynches, I'd lynch them both. ##Vote: Xatalos | ||
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Chairman Ray
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On July 23 2014 06:20 Koshi wrote: ##unvote ##vote CR I don't even know what he is doing. Do you not think Xatalos is scummy? | ||
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On July 23 2014 06:26 Koshi wrote: I think you are out of your mind if you think we had the most awkward conversation ever. I said "how happy are you I am town". How am I here being awkward? Xatalos his answer might have been odd. But how can you say that even I am scummy? What kind of insane connection is that CR? Why isn't Xatalos scummy that can't reply to my awesome trick question??? Hmmmm? Your side of the conversation was fine, but that's to be expected of you whether you are scum or not. Xatalos was not fine. He pocketed you for the weirdest reason at the weirdest time. I'm leaning towards scum pocketing scum rather than scum pocketing town. | ||
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Chairman Ray
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On July 23 2014 06:38 Chopin Liszt wrote: I don't actually know where I'm going with this line of questioning, so I won't pursue it any further. I find it odd that you're attempting to exclude yourself from the lynch for fairly mediocre reasoning, but at the moment it's just odd, rather than scummy-odd. What do you think about him excluding Koshi from the lynch as well? | ||
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On July 23 2014 11:15 GlowingBear wrote: Hi! I'm male but I'd love to play the girlfriend role. Buy me stuff and maybe you'll get laid  ))It's difficult for me to be clear, I realise I have some problems with it (particularly while talking in english), I'll be objective but if it's still unclear please tell me and I'll try to clarify it again. I don't say that it's best to automatically lynch everyone who I think is good scum. I actually say that, if anyone starts a phrase with "I think he's quite a good scum player", in a mafia game, I believe that the most unnatural conclusion will be "I'll have to wait to judge him". I believe that a townie will mostly pressure the good player so he can get a better analysis. Therefore, if at early day1 I start saying that someone is a good scum player, I will automatically vote for him, because (i) I can get more information from him and (ii) it's better to lynch a good scum player than a bad scum player, although this last argument is secondary and less optimal. Not what I'm saying in the last paragraph, also. I'm saying that if he has gut feelings, I'm almost sure damdred is not the only one. There are more mafias in the game. He shouldn't consider every other player scum, but why he is considering only damdred and noone else? He used a passive stance. He would say "I never played a game with this guy before" or "I need more time to read this one". Why picking damdred only? He doesn't get scum vibes from ANY other player? Do you understand what I mean? The feeling I got from his post was "I'll be as neutral as I can with every other player so I won't be the centre of attention and so people won't OMGUS me, but I'll pick someone to start a wagon and maybe get a mislynch. But I won't do that too hard, or people will turn against me day2. Maybe saying that I have gut feelings will lead someone to build a strong case against this townie". I write too much. Another issue I have with this damdred gut read is that it doesn't fit with his no-lynch reads. He put a bunch of people on a no-lynch list because those people don't give a strong indication of alignment on day 1. This means that he's looking for really strong scumreads. However, he's scumreading damdred for hardly anything. Doesn't make a lot of sense. | ||
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Chairman Ray
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We share some similar thoughts regarding Xatalos. I don't have any other opinion on him at the moment. | ||
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Chairman Ray
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On July 23 2014 17:23 Koshi wrote: I wonder if people really think that Xatalos made that post and was serious about it. Silly guys. Anyhoezels. Only 3 scummers. If you think scum makes a entrance post like Xatalos in this game as scum I don't know what to say... Unless you can proof he is going for the too scummy to be scum tactic. And I think Xatalos can't do that. So Xatalos confirmed town. What are the two posts you are referring to? | ||
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Chairman Ray
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On July 23 2014 18:22 Koshi wrote: Koshi flies solo this game. I am talking only about the listpost. Not the entrance tbh. That one was legit bad. I don't think the list thing is alignment indicative. What gives you the impression that it's town? | ||
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Chairman Ray
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Teemursu put a little pressure on OWS for reasons that OWS felt were unwarranted, which led to OWS being extremely agitated. I feel that if someone scumreads a mafia for reasons that aren't really scummy, the mafia would probably be frustrated by it, while a town would just be like whatever. Especially since that nobody else hopped on the train, there's little reason for OWS to feel pressured at all. I'm putting OWS on my radar now, but Xatalos is still my ideal lynch. | ||
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Chairman Ray
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On July 23 2014 18:45 Koshi wrote: All these people are already bad lynches for D1: HaruRH teemursu ObiWanShinobi Navillus GlowingBear kushm4sta batsnacks Damdred Is this list serious? Why did you not include Xatalos, who you said was confirmed town? | ||
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Chairman Ray
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Catching up! | ||
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Chairman Ray
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1. His entrance into the game Xatalos entered the game complaining about how he rolled town... again. This in itself is slightly scummy. I would say 70% of time I hear this came from scum. But now let's look at how he said it: + Show Spoiler + On July 23 2014 03:03 Xatalos wrote: ##Vote raynpelikoneet Sigh On July 23 2014 06:01 raynpelikoneet wrote: /confirm Xatalos why did you write "sigh" after your vote? On July 23 2014 06:07 Xatalos wrote: Going into the game, I wanted to roll scum and regain my lost honor after my recent losses as scum. Alas, I'm town for who knows how many times in a row now. Instead of just saying "dang, I rolled town again", he posts "sigh" in anticipation that someone will ask him about it, and then tell them he's sad about rolling town. In real life, this is an attention whoring tactic. You want to share some of your feelings, but want to make it seem less self-centered, so you bait other people into asking you. (Source: Go watch any female League of Legends streamer). In this mafia context, Xatalos probably knows complaining about rolling town is not going to be perceived as towny, so what does he do instead? Attention whore it! The combination of being worried about how people perceive his townclaim, and the extra effort put into it makes him 10x more scummy. 2. Being an early game cockblock At the start of the game, I tried to put some pressure onto Xatalos and Koshi, to which Xatalos responded with: + Show Spoiler + On July 23 2014 06:09 Xatalos wrote: I don't think it's a good idea to lynch either of us for D1. Generally speaking. On July 23 2014 06:16 Xatalos wrote: Koshi can look scummy during D1 as town so it's not usually a good time to lynch him. I'm generally active regardless of my alignment, and I become a (somewhat) valuable asset throughout the game as town and I tend to reveal myself more easily later on as scum (+leaving material to work with). Neither of us are ideal D1 lynches. Xatalos doesn't want to try reading Koshi at all on day 1. That's bad, but not the main problem. The main problem is that he's blocking the pressure I'm trying to put on people. As town, this makes zero sense. Even if he doesn't think he can read Koshi well, there's no reason to stop other people from trying. Even more so to block pressure so that there's even less information to read. As mafia, what could this mean? He's trying to gain favor from Koshi. Makes perfect sense. This is confirmed later on when I criticized him for it: On July 23 2014 06:41 Xatalos wrote: As a sidenote, I'm extremely careful not to connect myself with my teammates as scum. You can see me bussing / semi-bussing / distancing my teammates in pretty much every game. I would never fake a friendly conversation with my teammate as scum, at least right away. So instead of explaining why he defended Koshi, he says that if he's mafia, he wouldn't pocket another mafia. From this defense, I actually think if Xatalos is mafia, Koshi's probably town. But Xatalos is 10x more mafia than before for only defending Koshi from the perspective if he were mafia. 3. Townreading instead of scumreading The biggest hurdle that mafia have is that they have to find scummy things in people that they know are not scum. Xatalos seems to be burdened by this the most. He declared that he wasn't going to bother reading people who are hard to read: + Show Spoiler + On July 23 2014 06:16 Xatalos wrote: Koshi can look scummy during D1 as town so it's not usually a good time to lynch him. I'm generally active regardless of my alignment, and I become a (somewhat) valuable asset throughout the game as town and I tend to reveal myself more easily later on as scum (+leaving material to work with). Neither of us are ideal D1 lynches. On July 23 2014 06:29 Xatalos wrote: Koshi - against lynching him D1 raynpelikoneet - definitely not a D1 lynch unless he somehow is really scummy (doubtful regardless of his alignment) kushm4sta - hmmm.... I think he's quite a good scum player so I'd rather see until later to judge him Palmar - see raynpelikoneet On July 23 2014 19:25 Xatalos wrote: 2) The "kush is a good scum player" thing? It just meant that I have no confidence in catching kush immediately. It should be better to wait some more before marking him as either town or scum. For the entire game, Xatalos has given many people townreads, but only really voted Damdred and Navillus. Damdred off just a gut feeling and Navillus because his case was a bit weak (more on this later). It is clear that Xatalos has a lot of issues scumreading anyone. So far he hasn't pushed on anybody or made a strong case on anybody either. He's been giving the excuse that there's not much to go off of on day 1. However, since he's giving so many townreads on people, he must think that there's enough to go off of for calling people town. This is like the biggest scumtell. 4. Scumreading standards that reflect an agenda Xatalos voted Navillus at a very opportune time - when Navillus looked to be a second wagon that could save Xatalos. Self-preservation voting isn't scummy, but when you do it early on in the game instead of scumhunting, it's incredibly scummy. Here's the reason that Xatalos voted Navillus. He tries to give his own reason, but it's pretty clear that he's sheeping in order to get the wagon on someone else: On July 23 2014 18:48 Xatalos wrote: Navillus could be scum. Reasonably likely is. His posts are pretty inconclusive and weak despite having a lot of text. Leaving a lot of options open for future actions. Xatalos gives a townreads on himself and many other people for the exact behavior that he's scumreading Navillus for: + Show Spoiler + On July 23 2014 20:38 Xatalos wrote: I feel like Palmar made a reasonable early case, but it's far from conclusive. It's hard to have a conclusive case on D1 really. And you playing more to your scum meta + wanting to lynch Navillus isn't very encouraging. On July 24 2014 00:15 Xatalos wrote: I think I did mention that it's stupid to call me "infinitely scummy" for a single listpost, but overall I don't feel like it's inherently scummy to make bad cases. It's D1 after all, good cases are rare. On July 24 2014 00:47 Xatalos wrote: I'm not really worried about being lynched and I know my own alignment, so it's kind of nice to have initial suspicions on me to see how they develop / how other players react. At least it's better than everyone sheeping to some lurker. Plus there isn't really much to say about those posts you mentioned. They're either weak suspicions or not even real suspicions at all. Damdred's post has probably been the most useless one, yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if there's scum among this group. On July 24 2014 01:07 Xatalos wrote: Probably not Teemursu. He's been pretty involved and expressed clear opinions so far. It's not like he's even having me as a strong scumread, just a FOS or something, which doesn't seem that unreasonable. Damdred is potential scum. Seems like he's mostly been trying to stay under the radar and he's pretty cautious / passive. Dunno about Haru atm. Null. His reasons for suspecting me are kind of dumb, but not totally outrageous when there's little to work with during D1. TBD. ObiWan and batsnacks didn't really give much of an opinion on me and just townread Damdred. Kind of weird, I guess... There could be scum among these two. ObiWan felt somewhat townish earlier though. On July 24 2014 02:30 Xatalos wrote: GB's confidence in me being scum is actually pretty shocking. It's like he initially decided that I would be his vote target and proceeded to search for justification to keep his vote on me. There is literally no consideration for me possibly being town in his filter. In his latest post he confidently states that "mafia changed the attention away from Xatalos". This is some really stupid confirmation bias or a hopeless scum mislynch push. I think it's actually more likely coming from scum since it feels... forced. Especially his great confidence in his read right after the game had just started. On July 24 2014 07:00 Xatalos wrote: rayn, so you think ObiWan is scum? Have you played with him before? I dunno about his meta, but he doesn't feel like he's afraid of getting attention at all. He's also posted quite a bit so far. It's more indicative of town to me. He's showed reluctance to take stances, but it could just be genuinely not having many strong opinions. Is there something else on him besides the wishy-washiness? Xatalos also voted Damdred off a gutread, which seems to be inconsistent with the rest of his play. Here's the case I posted earlier: On July 23 2014 11:27 Chairman Ray wrote: Another issue I have with this damdred gut read is that it doesn't fit with his no-lynch reads. He put a bunch of people on a no-lynch list because those people don't give a strong indication of alignment on day 1. This means that he's looking for really strong scumreads. However, he's scumreading damdred for hardly anything. Doesn't make a lot of sense. 5. Disconnected with the discussion at hand Xatalos does not seem to be really involved with what's happening in the game. The vast majority of his reads have simply been about how active people are. Another thing is that he's throwing townreads left and right. This leads me to believe that he's trying to be active without trying to catch scum at all. + Show Spoiler + On July 23 2014 20:08 Xatalos wrote: Yeah, I remember Vivax being apathetic as scum. It wasn't quite this bad though. Not really sold on Teemursu at this point. He seems reasonably decisive and focused on the game. On July 23 2014 20:28 Xatalos wrote: Huh. Apparently Vivax is about 5x more active and involved in the game as town compared to his scum play. Right now he seems to be leaning scum. On July 23 2014 23:37 Xatalos wrote: Hmm... I'm starting to think that Vivax might be town after all. He's stayed pretty active and involved for a while now. On July 23 2014 23:44 Xatalos wrote: Last time I saw Vivax as scum, he truly didn't seem to care about much of anything and was very lurky. But in this game, at least recently, he's maintained a good amount of activity and his posts have also felt reasonably constructive. I checked some of his past games earlier and it seems like he's considerably more active and involved as town - more fitting with his recent play, whereas earlier he was more apathetic. On July 24 2014 00:06 Xatalos wrote: Because I looked at some of his past games and he was generally apathetic/inactive as scum and involved/active as town. His early posting fit the former, his recent posting fits the latter. On July 24 2014 00:08 Xatalos wrote: Oh yeah, to this: in any case, it's not a good idea to lynch him now since if he's scum, he's bound to become apathetic at some point. On July 24 2014 01:07 Xatalos wrote: Damdred is potential scum. Seems like he's mostly been trying to stay under the radar and he's pretty cautious / passive. [QUOTE]On July 24 2014 07:00 Xatalos wrote: I dunno about his meta, but he doesn't feel like he's afraid of getting attention at all. He's also posted quite a bit so far. It's more indicative of town to me.[QUOTE] On the other hand, when the discussion is directly about Xatalos, he becomes very attentive to context and detail. It's reasonable for town to be more focused on cases that are about them more than cases about other people, but to this extent, I'm thinking mafia. Xatalos is the mayor of scumville. Vote with me and vanquish the evil! | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On July 24 2014 08:22 HaruRH wrote: CR wtf that's luke tumblr logic you're using here 'Posts sound like attention whore so is scummy' Yeah, that is a bit scummy and read the rest of my case | ||
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Chairman Ray
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On July 24 2014 08:19 raynpelikoneet wrote: tldr plz? Read the headings and the underlined portion then | ||
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On July 24 2014 08:43 Xatalos wrote: CR, what do you think of Koshi more recently? Do you have something else to share besides your misguided case on me? Why are you curious about Koshi? | ||
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Chairman Ray
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On July 24 2014 08:51 Xatalos wrote: It's just that you wanted to lynch him early on but never mentioned him again. What is he now to you? Scum? Null? Town? What happened? Reads on other players would be nice as well. I already said this before, but there's an associative tell between you and Koshi which I can't ignore. Doesn't do much good before you flip. | ||
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Chairman Ray
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On July 24 2014 08:48 kushm4sta wrote: well mostly I couldn't townread him immediately, which I was able to do in the last two towngames I played with him. I didn't see any townie content in his early posts. I thought his overreaction was scummy. But I looked at his last towngame and he also overreacted when someone called him scum. Whereas he doesn't overreact when he's actually scum. Which games are you referring to? I'm gonna take a look too. | ||
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Chairman Ray
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On July 24 2014 09:05 Xatalos wrote: What's with this game and all this connection speculation >.> So if I'm scum, Koshi is scum... But Koshi isn't individually scummy? Do you have other reads? That's not exactly my read on you and Koshi, and furthermore it's pointless to discuss now. Why are you interested in my other reads? | ||
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Chairman Ray
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On July 24 2014 09:13 kushm4sta wrote: scum http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/460092-world-cup-mini-mafia?user=Cavalinho scum http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/461003-tl-mafia-lxvii-storm-mafia-2?user=ObiWanShinobi town http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/461330-noir-mini-mafia-chapter-2?user=ObiWanShinobi I gave a really quick read, so I might have missed some things. OWS is fairly different in this game than his previous games. In this game, OWS is completely dismissive. In the previous town game, he gets into a heated discussion with Robik, but is a lot more level headed and keeps the discussion going: On July 17 2014 07:58 ObiWanShinobi wrote: i dont really give a shit if hes mad or not. i can understand exactly why he could/should die today, but i want him to sit down and tell me why he keeps saying that i play badly, aside from the fact that he could be town and his entire reaction was made of awful things. In his previous scum games, he gets slightly aggravated at times, but still doesn't show anything like this game. One thing I noticed is his post game behavior: On July 22 2014 02:27 ObiWanShinobi wrote: honestly, fuck cora. fuck him right in the mouth. On July 22 2014 02:33 ObiWanShinobi wrote: the only thing that makes this okay is that, despite the fact that cora got really lucky by shooting me, town still lost. He got really angry presumably because he got shot for poor reasons, which was super lucky from town's side. In this game, Navillus was scumreading OWS for poor reasons, so if OWS gets lynched because of it, that would be unfair and just lucky on town's part. That's how I interpret it anyways. What do you think? | ||
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Not yet | ||
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On July 26 2014 01:47 Xatalos wrote: I wonder where CR disappeared. He still hasn't explained his read on me+Koshi. And now it's kind of futile since Koshi is semi-confirmed. Do you still need me to explain it? It's no longer relevant to the game. | ||
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Chairman Ray
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On July 26 2014 06:18 batsnacks wrote: No I didn't realize that, good for him. ##vote: vayneauthority Have another look at my crappy breadcrumb attempt Can you and Vayne confirm for us if there is a scum vig? I will not describe any of the instrument roles, but I will reveal that the Pianist and Cellist for both sides have similar roles, with town/scum conditionals. The bassist and violinists are unique. | ||
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Chairman Ray
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##vote VayneAuthority | ||
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On July 26 2014 07:02 GlowingBear wrote: What is a miller or a self-awared miller miller is a town that shows scum in cop checks. This role is commonly not revealed to the player. A self-aware miller is when this is revealed to the player. | ||
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Chairman Ray
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On July 26 2014 08:12 VayneAuthority wrote: I thought batsnacks town read me, i knew he was the real vig zz. why would I claim fake shot as mafia with only 2 mafia left? I rescind the claim. Why would you fake claim as town though? | ||
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Chairman Ray
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On July 26 2014 08:18 VayneAuthority wrote: take a shot, pretty simple but effective strategy for me to not have to do anything this game. saw the opportunity and i took it I don't believe you. When you fakeclaim, you give the real vig no choice but to counterclaim. Did you truly expect a different outcome? | ||
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Chairman Ray
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This play makes 100% sense as mafia. 0% sense as town. | ||
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Chairman Ray
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On July 26 2014 08:23 VayneAuthority wrote: this shows you arent following the thread at all, batsnacks didnt read the thread he didnt even know I claimed. I did literally nothing to make him "CC" me I know batsnacks didn't read. That doesn't matter because when you claimed, you had no idea whether or not batsnacks would claim in the future. It's a bad idea for batsnacks to claim right now anyways. Batsnacks coming out on his own is completely irrelevant, because you wouldn't have know it when you claimed yourself. | ||
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Chairman Ray
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On July 26 2014 08:29 Xatalos wrote: Btw CR, where is that explanation from earlier? I'll explain in the postgame or at least at night. I don't have a lot of time right now, and we need to lynch Vayne. | ||
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Chairman Ray
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I said it in the exact post you quoted. Vayne is mafia. | ||
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On July 26 2014 08:44 Xatalos wrote: That's not very exhaustive though. What about me? ObiWan? Damdred? Those are pretty much all the non-confirmed players left, haha... You or Chopin is probably the last mafia. | ||
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Chairman Ray
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On July 26 2014 08:49 Xatalos wrote: ....You just chose the two most unlikely options but fine. At least I can see VA being scum. Why Chopin though btw? Chopin could be mafia because of the way he pushed the vote off you the first day and the way he's trying to push the vote off Vayne today. Chopin put a lot of effort drawing the lynch off of you, but not very much putting the lynch onto OWS. So instead, Nav got lynched. You were a good lynch, OWS was a maybe good lynch, Nav was not a good lynch. Their reasoning for why you were town was poor as well. I don't know why they thought you were town just because you did the weird ass claim thing. The bottom line is that you got out of the lynch without having to do any scumhunting or pro-town things. Their reasoning for Vayne being town is also poor. The bottom line here is that Vayne attempted to bait out the vig, and now he might get away scot-free. I do not see a reason why scum would not make these kinds of plays when town falls for them so hard, and Chopin is orchestrating it so well. If you are town and Chopin is mafia, Chopin let Nav get lynched because Nav was a bad lynch and would probably not have been lynched the next day. You and OWS could easily be the next lynches. Take the hard lynches when you can and save the easy ones for later. As for today, if a mafia gets lynched, town wins. If Chopin and Vayne are mafia, Chopin needs to go all-in to make sure Vayne doesn't get lynched, and he seems to be doing just that. | ||
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Chairman Ray
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On July 26 2014 14:56 ObiWanShinobi wrote: He retracted his claim. Besides, that claim doesn't make sense to make as scum. You get rid of a confirmed town and die immediately after, and a 1 for 1 trade is never good for mafia. Town lies for bad/stupid reasons, like taking a hit or what the fuck ever, so I don't see the claim as alignment indicative unless he's actually going to stick with it and waste our time lynching him for nothing. If you actually think he's scum, then you need reasons and a case. A nonsensical counterclaim is not a case. I'll explain to you why Vayne is mafia. Vayne rescinded his claim right when batsnacks claimed. Vayne's intention was never to square off in a 1v1. It was to force the vig to come out and then rescind the claim. His mafia partner will try to argue that this is not a scum move, so that Vayne gets off scot-free. The end result is that vig is forced to claim, and Vayne doesn't look any worse for it, which is exactly what is happening right now. The reason why mafia need to make this play is because if they shoot VTs at night, they lose. We have 4 roles alive and a vested VT. That's 5 potentially confirmed town. There are 4 VTs left. The only mislynch that can happen today is on a VT because a role would simply claim. With 3 VTs left, if mafia shoot 2 of them, we mass claim and then the game ends in a town victory. So the only thing mafia can do to survive until the next day is to reliably kill a role. That's why Vayne fakeclaimed and then rescinded. If Vayne was town, there would be no point to fakeclaiming. The only outcome of fakeclaiming is that the real role will counter claim you. We're not talking about a new player here; we're talking about Vayne, who is an expert in this field, fakeclaimed many times before, and knows exactly what was going to happen. | ||
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Chairman Ray
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I've been scum every single game for the past year. 6 or 7 times in a row I think. -_- | ||
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