EPTSo his vote makes at least a little sense from a town perspective and I do not see a scum motivation for it.
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
So his vote makes at least a little sense from a town perspective and I do not see a scum motivation for it. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
>I say I dont' remember that game >open up filter, find something to meta read to prove that meta read isn't valuable >get criticized for it mfw | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
Man, that didn't take like any time at all to do. Chill out. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
I'd do it again, too, and you should all be glad I would. There's nothing I won't do to win this game. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 22 2014 07:10 Artanis[Xp] wrote: We lynched who I wanted to lynch though. Both times. OK you get to be Prime Minister, but I'm clearly the President, cause I never made a post like this: On June 21 2014 05:20 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I thought his case was pretty decent. I feel like my reads are utter shit this game though, so just gonna go and sheep you. ##Unvote ##Vote YouKnowZhou So one of us has shown great leadership (me) and is therefore clearly a member of the executive branch. I gotta give you credit for eventually doing my bidding and corralling votes, but my confidence and executive style really means I'm Mr. President. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 22 2014 07:17 slOosh wrote: Convenient that YKZ is interested in popping in to defend himself, but not at all in coming up with scum reads. In any case my case can be summarized as "YKZ didn't really want to lynch mderg D2". You guys can reread D2 for yourselves and decide if it's true or I'm making stuff up. If anyone has questions for me, I'll answer them, but in order to avoid getting shot or not shot strategically, my cases will all come just before deadline. :D | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
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YouKnowZhou
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On June 22 2014 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Do explain me how you were right on two lynches in a row when one of them flipped town. Well, 2 ways. First, 27nb was objectively scummy so the lynch on her was objectively good (link), even if it SO HAPPENED that she flipped town this time. I'm sure you, who wrote the same case as I did write after I did (link), would agree that 27nb needed to be lynched. We did what was necessary. Secondly, both times the person I wanted to lynch got lynched, and might makes right  . Town following my lead is objectively correct. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 22 2014 07:38 YouKnowZhou wrote: Well, 2 ways. First, 27nb was objectively scummy so the lynch on her was objectively good (link), even if it SO HAPPENED that she flipped town this time. I'm sure you, who wrote the same case as I did write after I did (link), would agree that 27nb needed to be lynched. We did what was necessary. Secondly, both times the person I wanted to lynch got lynched, and might makes right . Town following my lead is objectively correct.EBWOP | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 22 2014 07:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I'm going to estimate the chance of this being similar to the chance of England winning this year's world cup. Snickers is probably going to be targeted by... a cop check, or a vigi shot if for some reason we have one. But certainly not by scum. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 22 2014 07:59 Artanis[Xp] wrote: No, no no no no no. Snickers is town. Cop checks or vigi shots would be wasted on him. There are much much better targets. Honestly, if people think I'm scum it would be better if the cop would check me, were it not for peoples' opinion of me. Since I claimed VT D1, though, I'm sure this request will result in noises from the usual suspects that I'm the Godfather and I chose VT or some other ridiculousness. Even if the cop claimed just before deadline and said "bh is green" or something and then got shot and flipped cop, people would still make noises that I'm playing some kind of really long game with all kinds of amazing plans that result in all this happening. In a way, I'm gratified that people think this of my scumgame, but it is at times annoying. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
1. Lazermonkey is probably not scum for his vote on me at the deadline. My arguments are here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22414143 but basically it boils down to the fact that scum have nothing to gain from this move. His last minute vote doesn't further a scum agenda. Now, the alternative is that it reveals a scum mindset, but I don't see that either. As scum you don't feel a need to make a last-minute vote that's literally of no consequence. Town may feel an irrational need to "consolidate" even if it does nothing, and I think that explains his motivations better. Remember, there's almost NO time between his vote and the deadline, I was barely barely able to sneak in a post saying that if his vote hammered me, he should be read into. But his vote didn't hammer me, couldn't have hammered me, and could have only looked bad. 2. Koshi should not be lynched during D2, probably. His reads in this post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=40#790 are fairly crappy but look at what he's doing. He's analyzing Lazermo's vote pattern. His read on sloosh isn't great but taking time to talk about inconsistencies in of all things, consolidation, indicates to me that Koshi is making an effort at trying to understand Lazermo. Reading this post made me say "lazermonkey is probably not scum" instead of "lazermonkey is not scum" in the previous paragraph. That and his interaction with Lazermo during D2 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=30#599 make me think that he is in fact genuinely trying to figure out the game. I don't like that his filter doesn't have a hyooj amount of content but people trying to lynch Koshi should be aware there are more likelty targers. 3. VE should not be left off the hook. Remember, during the time when I was trying to get in a last set of reads (sorta) before getting lynched, when I was chipping in an we were having real discussion? Suddenly, VE is "angry" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=33#651 and afks until right before the deadline. I explain how VE's actions during the last few hours of D2 are pretty clearly scum-motivated here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=38#758 . His response is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=39#762 Take a look at how he responds. He talks about sloosh looking good, and leaves out the fact that I have had to prod him multiple times over everything, doesn't address the fact that his reasoning was that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and disliked snickers and me on mderg: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721 Remember, later on, when VE is in the thread, Release, one of the two guys he likes, is on mderg, and Snickers, one of the guys he doesn't like, is on me. So, he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721). It is, however, more convenient, just like VE's fake anger (until he got called out for it and realized I was being super reasonable), or VE's afking right after I start engaging my thread, up until riight before the deadline. In fact, it's also interesting that he tries to shut down snickers' posting here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=39#766 but hey, dont' worry guys, after he gets called out, half an hour later VE says it was a joke. Of course, I don't see ANYTHING joking about that read at all, so I guess I'm missing something, but it's awfully convenient http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22411055. Also, note that VE was pretending to be mad at me up until he realized it was looking bad, then decided to stop being mad at me just long enough to address the case I made against him. All these convenient afks, fake anger, and convenient "jokes" telling people to stop engaging the thread are all things that VE has tried to brush off, but this coupled with VE's low contribution amount this game (don't look at his filter size-- even though he has 3 pages he has spent a lot of it being afk or pretending to be mad at me) it's basically clear he's scum. 4. not snickers, ve first sorry out of time | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 22 2014 08:59 VisceraEyes wrote: In fact if a vigi wants to shoot me that would really help out town a lot probably because I'm so stupid and scummy. oh how martyr, how too late, clearly VE scum | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
I'll have something together on my top scumread, whether that's VE or no, in a couple hours. In the meantime, I'm available for questions and will weigh on anything or anyone that you guys want. I'm going to sit down with D2 wagons and examine flips, then read filters, but I'll be checking recent posts in thread as well. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 23 2014 07:17 slOosh wrote: So Lazer, mderg started N1 / D2 with scum reads on VE and Snickers, and that's what he went with. Could you explain your interpretation of this scum strategies? I've been having some trouble articulating my thoughts on this as well. So, when I do association, I try in general to do it the other way. If we look at flipped scum mderg, here's what we see: It's noteworthy that mderg scumreads VE (link) and votes him, and only votes me when it's clear only mderg or I can be lynched D2. That being said, in my opinion the most valuable associative tells are not based on what the flipped mafia did, but what other people did TO the flipped mafia before the flip. As I have mentioned before (link), this is a much more valuable form of information. The dying scum's goal is typically to throw off town and make it difficult to find his allies after he flips. this isn't to say there isn't info to be gained from mderg's filter, but the info to be gained from how other people interacted with him is much greater, in general. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
So, I made some noises (link) about the possibility of VE being town earlier. However, having taken a look a the facts, I do not believe the fact that VE backed off from me should significantly impact my read on him. I initially thought the backing-off may be deserving of a townread since a scum VE could potentially get me lynched with effort, and the "fake anger" strategy was working well. However, I believe I was selling short how good a job I had done of appearing co-operative. I had made it so even a scum VE would have to tone down the anger, would have to not ratchet things up and continue yelling at me. I'm going to refer to my end-of-day case here, so please read it: (link). VE has not since responded to it, and I'm going to address his semi-responses and cast a vote on VE. I'm also going to talk about the posts he has made since I made that post, at the very last moments of the night. The relevant part is here: On June 22 2014 08:59 YouKnowZhou wrote: 3. VE should not be left off the hook. Remember, during the time when I was trying to get in a last set of reads (sorta) before getting lynched, when I was chipping in an we were having real discussion? Suddenly, VE is "angry" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=33#651 and afks until right before the deadline. I explain how VE's actions during the last few hours of D2 are pretty clearly scum-motivated here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=38#758 . His response is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=39#762 Take a look at how he responds. He talks about sloosh looking good, and leaves out the fact that I have had to prod him multiple times over everything, doesn't address the fact that his reasoning was that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and disliked snickers and me on mderg: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721 Remember, later on, when VE is in the thread, Release, one of the two guys he likes, is on mderg, and Snickers, one of the guys he doesn't like, is on me. So, he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721). It is, however, more convenient, just like VE's fake anger (until he got called out for it and realized I was being super reasonable), or VE's afking right after I start engaging my thread, up until riight before the deadline. In fact, it's also interesting that he tries to shut down snickers' posting here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=39#766 but hey, dont' worry guys, after he gets called out, half an hour later VE says it was a joke. Of course, I don't see ANYTHING joking about that read at all, so I guess I'm missing something, but it's awfully convenient http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22411055. Also, note that VE was pretending to be mad at me up until he realized it was looking bad, then decided to stop being mad at me just long enough to address the case I made against him. All these convenient afks, fake anger, and convenient "jokes" telling people to stop engaging the thread are all things that VE has tried to brush off, but this coupled with VE's low contribution amount this game (don't look at his filter size-- even though he has 3 pages he has spent a lot of it being afk or pretending to be mad at me) it's basically clear he's scum. First off, let's look at VE's "last minute" post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=828&topic_id=458796 This post, in which VE asks for a vigi shot, is in the very very last second of the night. I tried to make my post at the very last second before the deadline, but VE actually slipped this in between my post and the deadline. Now, you may think, "it makes sense for VE to ask to be shot. After all, maybe he's worried he'd get lynched as a townie and doesn't want to waste town's time". That's true, but look at the timing; there's absolutely no way that VE is going to get shot when he posts at that time, when it's too late for anyone to do anything. So what's the purpose? I can't find one other than "it makes VE look a tiny bit better", but honestly it's so see-through that the only thing I can think of is that VE is just trying to make noises that he thinks a townie would make, and he screwed up. Who asks for a vigi shot when it's too late for vigis to shoot? Remember, ve was in the thread about 10 minutes earlier (link) as well as throughout the night, he had plenty of time to ask for a shot and he didn't until it would make no difference. Next, VE retcons (link) how he was feeling about mderg during D2. It's true, VE made a scumread on mderg, but who was VE voting, even when his stated reasons for voting changed conditions? It was me, not mderg. Ve made all the noises about wanting to lynch mderg, and he even said that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and he wasn't voting mderg because Snickers and I were voting mderg. (link). Then, when release votes mderg and snickers votes ykz, VE stands by his vote. Remember, it was "2 townreads on the ykz wagon, 2 scumreads on the mderg wagon, that's my main reason here." When one of his townreads votes for mderg and one of his scumreads votes for me, what's the deal then VE? This has never adequately been explained, except when he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721). So, VE made a lot of NOISE about being fine about the mderg wagon. I totally agree with him that he certainly liked to WRITE that he was fine about the mderg wagon. He definitely made up reasons that he voted me over mderg. But when those conditions changed, and his reasons didn't make sense any more, he didn't swap to mderg, or even try to re-evaluate. No, instead he "got mad" at me (link) and "happened" to be afk during the crucial time leading up to the lynch. But enough about D2; let's talk about D3. VE lays out his scumreads for today, which are me and Sloosh he says he's conflicted, and his heart says bh and his head says sloosh (link). He then asks for help. He doesn't have questions, he doesn't have cases to write. He doesn't ask me to clarify anything (Despite apparently now being cool with cooperating with me) and he doesn't try to address sloosh in any way. When artanis replies, VE responds by quoting his nk speculation in which he's telling me he's "giving me a pass" for D3. (link). This is in contradiction with his previous post, but I consider this contradiction to be a towntell rather than a scumtell. The issue with this post isn't that he contradicts himself (townies often do this) but that when someone offers an opinion, he just drops a quote and doesn't press on. Then, he just says "chez ur on the table today" (link) and it's like fairly clear at this point VE is just trying to figure out which way the wind is blowing. I'm amazed he hasn't made a koshi case yet . So here's where things get interesting. He's back onto the "gk kill means something" train (link) and trying to give himself credit for the mderg lynch again, but look at what he says about GK specificallyOn June 22 2014 10:17 VisceraEyes wrote: This was the post that solidified my read on mderg - he mentioned something I also noticed (and mentioned actually) and he ended up dying in the night. However beyond this you're right, at the end of the day he ended up on the "mderg town" side of things. :/ Frankly the only thing I can see GK being killed for is either a busted role-hunt or to implicate me somehow (he ended up scummy on me at the end of the day). Good to know. At this point, VE is not in fact looking at GK's post and trying to evaluate it for merit. He's not saying "i'm gonna read this case or post with fresh eyes, as though GK were still alive, since GK was shot and is conftown". Instead, he's focusing his opinion on the scum part of the thing, the fact that GK was killed. GK could be killed for all kinds of reasons, and it can be valuable to speculate about it at times, but look at VE here. He's not using dead GK as some kind of resource to read, looking at the cases and posts like someone who's townie would. Instead of looking for GK's logic, his mind goes to reasons scum would shoot GK. I consider this to be a minor point in comparison to the end-of-D2 stuff. But it's a point. Buddying me (link) but more importantly an attack on sloosh. Why defend a scumread, VE? He defends himself, but not against my case (link). The taking credit thing is clever and annoying but not on its own an issue. It's really wroth noting that the 2nd post, about original posts, is spot-on. During D2 VE is mostly just chucking out rando reads without following them up, probably looking to see what sticks before writing a case. After losing his partner, VE wants to not overstep his leadership, which means toning down the nasty and buddying with me, and being like water and changing his shape to fill the container. As I wrote this post, he decides to vote me and of course does not write or reference a case: (link) On June 23 2014 12:16 VisceraEyes wrote: slOosh do you still think BH is mafia? Release does. And I think I'm rescinding his pass for his BS last night. ##Vote: YouKnowZhou I'll just leave that post in which VE votes me with no explanation, next to this quote from VE just 10 hours earlier: On June 23 2014 02:42 VisceraEyes wrote: This isn't true at all, something HAS changed. THIS cycle instead of having only one townie tunnel on his resume, BH has now pushed and voted for scum. That HAS changed and you don't just get to come in and throw a vote down on BH without explaining why he does that as mderg's mafia partner.  So I guess VE, besides all the points against you, something HAS changed. I have now pushed and voted for scum. You don't jsut get to come in and throw a vote down on BH without some explaining why I do that as mderg's mafia partner , in the words of a wise man. ##vote VisceraEyes | ||
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