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On February 21 2014 10:21 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 10:18 Balla24 wrote:
Exactly marv, it's very interesting. Regardless of what alignment rayn is he ALWAYS has a reason to do something. If he votes someone it's likely that he DOES see something.
This is the second time he's done a "does anybody else see what I see?" type of play. That's not how I'd term it. I think he thinks it's self-evident. I read it again and apparently because I said it's hard to fake looking careless as mafia then I'm mafia? No idea really.
I think I see more than that, and i'll elaborate but I do want suki to answer what she thinks first.
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On February 21 2014 10:22 suki wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 10:11 marvellosity wrote:
Usually when rayn calls me mafia he is mafia (say ##, Vengeful). Not sure that's the case here though, he might just be deranged.
At the very least it's interesting or I care about it, dunno why you wouldn't suki. Unless you're that sure he's town that you don't have to care about it... Rayn is a tough one for me. I don't know why he does half the things he does. I think his haphazard style of play feels like the town game I played with him so I do think he is town. People have already asked him what his vote on you is for so I don't see the need to ask it myself, and really that's the only question I would ask regarding that vote.
The guy just did a completely unexplained vote on marv and calling you the second scum after a conversation between you and marv and you town read him without even trying to figure out his motives? Answer these questions:
On February 21 2014 10:11 Balla24 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 10:09 suki wrote:On February 21 2014 10:07 Balla24 wrote:On February 21 2014 10:05 suki wrote:
Why would his vote on marv specifically have to do with me Balla and not anyone else? He's specifically pinging both you and marv as scum together. What set him off was you and marv's interaction about koshi/fluffypuppy, which means there is probably some associative reasoning within there as well. I see... Why should I care that rayn is calling me and marv out as scum when he doesn't provide any reasons at all? It's just noise. You shouldn't. What you should do is try to see what he's seeing or try to figure out what he's doing. What do you think he sees in regards to marv? What do you think his goal was?
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It seems like the bulk of rayn's suspicions against marv started on page 41, when marv and I were interacting.
Maybe he thought the back and forth was fake? Like, two scum having a discussion with each other? Maybe he doesn't like the fact that marv is not sticking to a read on Balla and I and saying he has to re-read everything. Then marv calls me out for copying him and I say yeah because I think you're town and rayn is like this is too contrived they must be scum together.
If it's some sort of strange association theory about why marv and I are scum buddies then why should I care about it? He's been calling me scum all game and he's been wrong this whole time so any sort of association theory he has about me and someone else is worthless. The town rayn I know tends to get ideas in his head and act impulsively so I don't see his actions as scummy.
And if you can explain his 'I thought this was about Koshi? WHAT??!?!!!' post then please go ahead because I can't follow his line of thought.
+ Show Spoiler +On February 21 2014 08:29 marvellosity wrote:
I dunno, I gotta re-read everything you and balla said to each other. Didn't parse it very well the first time and it seems like it should be important.
My point with the Koshi thing is you're effectively calling him out for the same thing you did in the first place. On February 21 2014 08:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:
marv marv...... On February 21 2014 08:37 suki wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 08:29 marvellosity wrote:
I dunno, I gotta re-read everything you and balla said to each other. Didn't parse it very well the first time and it seems like it should be important.
My point with the Koshi thing is you're effectively calling him out for the same thing you did in the first place. If you're saying I'm not giving reads and not analyzing . . . Well I am trying. I want to hear your opinion on me because it seems you've been picking at my words for a while but not actually coming out and saying whether you think that makes me town or scum. On February 21 2014 08:38 raynpelikoneet wrote:
you are scum.. On February 21 2014 08:38 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Is marv scum too? On February 21 2014 08:41 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 08:40 CuteFluffyPuppy wrote:Pg 25-27 On February 20 2014 22:51 Toadesstern wrote:On February 20 2014 22:45 raynpelikoneet wrote:On February 20 2014 22:42 Toadesstern wrote:On February 20 2014 22:38 raynpelikoneet wrote:On February 20 2014 22:35 Toadesstern wrote:On February 20 2014 22:31 Palmar wrote:
Toad who is scum and why is it you? I just got back in here finished reading... give me some time but it's actually up in there if you consider the fact that it's a write-up while reading and things changing a little On February 20 2014 22:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:On February 20 2014 22:29 Toadesstern wrote:On February 20 2014 14:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:
[quote]
[quote]
Toad how do these two comments go together? They go together as "#1 didn't cross my mind at that time because I have no idea how someone could come up with it, so I didn't take it into consideration before you mentioned it. Once you did mention it I figured it's possible" wait wait wait. what? "why didn't you think it's blue? - I have no idea what blue is, so I thought it might be green or yellow and thought that's weird, once you explained what blue is I realized it might be blue" So you are saying you didn't know how i came up with what i did after i said in thread why i came up with it. Explain to me where in your opinion i explain why i came up with what i did. In other words, what happened between the posts of your i quoted? no I'm saying I didn't have the same misunderstanding you had about the phrasing, therefore what you innitially thought didn't cross my mind and wasn't part of my theories what you might be doing with that plan of yours. Once you cleared up that you thought those votes would add up I realized it might make sense given that misunderstanding. I just never had that misunderstanding to begin with which is the reason I couldn't make sense of it. My problem is this. And now, please answer this properly and in detail: You make a post which says this: On February 20 2014 10:40 Toadesstern wrote:
@rayn: Can't be #1 because I have no idea how someone could have come to that conclusion based on the phrasing from our lovevly host. Then there is something that happens between here because you then say this: On February 20 2014 11:12 Toadesstern wrote:
Your explanation is possible, that's the sad thing here. Now what is that something that happens between these posts? Why do you change your mind and what's the particular post that makes you change your mind? You asked me about my reasoning earlier on. The first part is talking about my stance on you and how I got to that stance from my PoV before you did this post: + Show Spoiler +On February 20 2014 10:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So here we go (marv i would have expected a bit more from you, i am sad):
There are three possibilities about my motives and here they are:
1) I am town and this is my thought process; I misunderstood the setup as i have already explained and thought the votes from previous days are added to the current days votes. That's why i made my plan in the first place. Now this would have been the most pro-town plan because i would have later on brought up the fact that we should treat this as a majority lynch and at the end of the day people who are not in the majority wagon put their votes on themselves. In that way we would have eliminated any cons for the town in setup we possibly can, which is pretty much everything other than the randomness which we can't eliminate.
However, that was not the case. Now, i still stand behind my "if you "unvote", vote yourself" plan because of this. If we do not push this policy it leads to possibly stupid and irrelevant questions like "you don't think this dude is scum anymore, why is your vote still on him?". We don't want that because we benefit from clarity and it's beneficial we know exactly WHEN and WHY people drop their scumreads and where they head next. If they don't have next target they should inform that by voting for themselves. This prevents mafia from misrepresenting people because you can always back up your thoughts with your actions in thread (most importantly voting). Having no possibility to unvote is pro-mafia, if you't agree with that you need to explain me why. It's never irrelevant where your vote is at.
2) I did the same pro-town thing as mafia.
3) I just made all this up and and i was just saying shit for no reason at the start of the game.
Now here is my question, especially to prplhz, Toad, Palmar and suki;
Why did you not try to see what i was/am trying to do and how that would make me whatever alignment. What you did is you took some posts from me and painted them scummy without no thinking behind it. I want to know why.
If what i was doing was (1), then i am town.
If what i was doing is (2), you can't tell my alignment.
If what i was doing is (3), then you are saying i am some random noob which this post already proves i am not because i would have came up with a decent explanation on the fly.
So again, why am i mafia? Especially prplhz and Toad?The second part you're quoting is explaining how I realized that your explanation (the above post) makes sense if we take the misunderstanding as a given, which I did not consider before you cleared it up simply because I did not have that same misunderstanding. Toad's explanation regarding the Rayn plan has left me with more question marks than anything. His initial comment doesn't specify anything about how it's about his reads without the explanation, especially since he referred to the comment as "can't be #1" which indicates he read the actual arguments, yet it's supposedly about his explanation as to why he thought Rayn was scum. It feels to me like a reason he thought of after the events. Not going to push it as per marv's proposal. On February 20 2014 23:09 marvellosity wrote:On February 20 2014 23:08 Palmar wrote:
I really like prplhz's point about koshi, don't you marv? doesn't it make you all warm inside? no, it's exactly the kind of thing Koshi would do as town more than mafia, he'd be more careful as mafia. Don't you think Koshi would know how you're likely to respond to this? It's fairly clear to anyone reading games that carelessness is seen as town. With someone as forthcoming with their thoughts as Koshi usually is, I don't find it unlikely at all. It's an easy way to look town without putting much effort in the game, and Koshi abhors playing scum. On February 21 2014 08:14 suki wrote:
CuteFluffyPuppy, why do you think this 'bravado' line of action is more likely to come from scum Koshi than town Koshi?
What scum objectives do you perceive Koshi having in his posts? Because Koshi does not like playing scum. The way he's playing is the laziest way to still get read as town. I think a town Koshi would take the opportunity to do a more thorough read and get a good read on some players. He hasn't really tried. Koshi's objective is to get read as town with the least amount of effort. It's extremely difficult to look "naturally" careless. I've played more scumgames than anyone else on TL Mafia and I have an exceptional record and I can't really do it. On February 21 2014 08:42 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I thought this was about Koshi? WHAT??!?!!! On February 21 2014 08:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Okay this answer is scum.
marv is mafia.
##unvote
#vote: marvellosoty
OH GOD THIS IS SO GOOD!
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The thing I want most from rayn's vote on marv is an explanation from him.
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Because then I can see what he's thinking.
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Hi Oats, welcome back.
Who do you find scummy and why?
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So if he comes up with absolute crap he is scum but if he posts nothing he is town? I dont see the connection here.
nothing changed really although I really didnt like smurfs play by play of the thread so hes scummier.
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On February 21 2014 10:42 suki wrote:It seems like the bulk of rayn's suspicions against marv started on page 41, when marv and I were interacting. Maybe he thought the back and forth was fake? Like, two scum having a discussion with each other? Maybe he doesn't like the fact that marv is not sticking to a read on Balla and I and saying he has to re-read everything. Then marv calls me out for copying him and I say yeah because I think you're town and rayn is like this is too contrived they must be scum together. If it's some sort of strange association theory about why marv and I are scum buddies then why should I care about it? He's been calling me scum all game and he's been wrong this whole time so any sort of association theory he has about me and someone else is worthless. The town rayn I know tends to get ideas in his head and act impulsively so I don't see his actions as scummy. And if you can explain his 'I thought this was about Koshi? WHAT??!?!!!' post then please go ahead because I can't follow his line of thought. + Show Spoiler +On February 21 2014 08:29 marvellosity wrote:
I dunno, I gotta re-read everything you and balla said to each other. Didn't parse it very well the first time and it seems like it should be important.
My point with the Koshi thing is you're effectively calling him out for the same thing you did in the first place. On February 21 2014 08:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:
marv marv...... On February 21 2014 08:37 suki wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 08:29 marvellosity wrote:
I dunno, I gotta re-read everything you and balla said to each other. Didn't parse it very well the first time and it seems like it should be important.
My point with the Koshi thing is you're effectively calling him out for the same thing you did in the first place. If you're saying I'm not giving reads and not analyzing . . . Well I am trying. I want to hear your opinion on me because it seems you've been picking at my words for a while but not actually coming out and saying whether you think that makes me town or scum. On February 21 2014 08:38 raynpelikoneet wrote:
you are scum.. On February 21 2014 08:38 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Is marv scum too? On February 21 2014 08:41 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 08:40 CuteFluffyPuppy wrote:Pg 25-27 On February 20 2014 22:51 Toadesstern wrote:On February 20 2014 22:45 raynpelikoneet wrote:On February 20 2014 22:42 Toadesstern wrote:On February 20 2014 22:38 raynpelikoneet wrote:On February 20 2014 22:35 Toadesstern wrote:On February 20 2014 22:31 Palmar wrote:
Toad who is scum and why is it you? I just got back in here finished reading... give me some time but it's actually up in there if you consider the fact that it's a write-up while reading and things changing a little On February 20 2014 22:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:On February 20 2014 22:29 Toadesstern wrote:On February 20 2014 14:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:
[quote]
[quote]
Toad how do these two comments go together? They go together as "#1 didn't cross my mind at that time because I have no idea how someone could come up with it, so I didn't take it into consideration before you mentioned it. Once you did mention it I figured it's possible" wait wait wait. what? "why didn't you think it's blue? - I have no idea what blue is, so I thought it might be green or yellow and thought that's weird, once you explained what blue is I realized it might be blue" So you are saying you didn't know how i came up with what i did after i said in thread why i came up with it. Explain to me where in your opinion i explain why i came up with what i did. In other words, what happened between the posts of your i quoted? no I'm saying I didn't have the same misunderstanding you had about the phrasing, therefore what you innitially thought didn't cross my mind and wasn't part of my theories what you might be doing with that plan of yours. Once you cleared up that you thought those votes would add up I realized it might make sense given that misunderstanding. I just never had that misunderstanding to begin with which is the reason I couldn't make sense of it. My problem is this. And now, please answer this properly and in detail: You make a post which says this: On February 20 2014 10:40 Toadesstern wrote:
@rayn: Can't be #1 because I have no idea how someone could have come to that conclusion based on the phrasing from our lovevly host. Then there is something that happens between here because you then say this: On February 20 2014 11:12 Toadesstern wrote:
Your explanation is possible, that's the sad thing here. Now what is that something that happens between these posts? Why do you change your mind and what's the particular post that makes you change your mind? You asked me about my reasoning earlier on. The first part is talking about my stance on you and how I got to that stance from my PoV before you did this post: + Show Spoiler +On February 20 2014 10:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So here we go (marv i would have expected a bit more from you, i am sad):
There are three possibilities about my motives and here they are:
1) I am town and this is my thought process; I misunderstood the setup as i have already explained and thought the votes from previous days are added to the current days votes. That's why i made my plan in the first place. Now this would have been the most pro-town plan because i would have later on brought up the fact that we should treat this as a majority lynch and at the end of the day people who are not in the majority wagon put their votes on themselves. In that way we would have eliminated any cons for the town in setup we possibly can, which is pretty much everything other than the randomness which we can't eliminate.
However, that was not the case. Now, i still stand behind my "if you "unvote", vote yourself" plan because of this. If we do not push this policy it leads to possibly stupid and irrelevant questions like "you don't think this dude is scum anymore, why is your vote still on him?". We don't want that because we benefit from clarity and it's beneficial we know exactly WHEN and WHY people drop their scumreads and where they head next. If they don't have next target they should inform that by voting for themselves. This prevents mafia from misrepresenting people because you can always back up your thoughts with your actions in thread (most importantly voting). Having no possibility to unvote is pro-mafia, if you't agree with that you need to explain me why. It's never irrelevant where your vote is at.
2) I did the same pro-town thing as mafia.
3) I just made all this up and and i was just saying shit for no reason at the start of the game.
Now here is my question, especially to prplhz, Toad, Palmar and suki;
Why did you not try to see what i was/am trying to do and how that would make me whatever alignment. What you did is you took some posts from me and painted them scummy without no thinking behind it. I want to know why.
If what i was doing was (1), then i am town.
If what i was doing is (2), you can't tell my alignment.
If what i was doing is (3), then you are saying i am some random noob which this post already proves i am not because i would have came up with a decent explanation on the fly.
So again, why am i mafia? Especially prplhz and Toad?The second part you're quoting is explaining how I realized that your explanation (the above post) makes sense if we take the misunderstanding as a given, which I did not consider before you cleared it up simply because I did not have that same misunderstanding. Toad's explanation regarding the Rayn plan has left me with more question marks than anything. His initial comment doesn't specify anything about how it's about his reads without the explanation, especially since he referred to the comment as "can't be #1" which indicates he read the actual arguments, yet it's supposedly about his explanation as to why he thought Rayn was scum. It feels to me like a reason he thought of after the events. Not going to push it as per marv's proposal. On February 20 2014 23:09 marvellosity wrote:On February 20 2014 23:08 Palmar wrote:
I really like prplhz's point about koshi, don't you marv? doesn't it make you all warm inside? no, it's exactly the kind of thing Koshi would do as town more than mafia, he'd be more careful as mafia. Don't you think Koshi would know how you're likely to respond to this? It's fairly clear to anyone reading games that carelessness is seen as town. With someone as forthcoming with their thoughts as Koshi usually is, I don't find it unlikely at all. It's an easy way to look town without putting much effort in the game, and Koshi abhors playing scum. On February 21 2014 08:14 suki wrote:
CuteFluffyPuppy, why do you think this 'bravado' line of action is more likely to come from scum Koshi than town Koshi?
What scum objectives do you perceive Koshi having in his posts? Because Koshi does not like playing scum. The way he's playing is the laziest way to still get read as town. I think a town Koshi would take the opportunity to do a more thorough read and get a good read on some players. He hasn't really tried. Koshi's objective is to get read as town with the least amount of effort. It's extremely difficult to look "naturally" careless. I've played more scumgames than anyone else on TL Mafia and I have an exceptional record and I can't really do it. On February 21 2014 08:42 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I thought this was about Koshi? WHAT??!?!!! On February 21 2014 08:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Okay this answer is scum.
marv is mafia.
##unvote
#vote: marvellosoty
OH GOD THIS IS SO GOOD!
Maybe about the association theory stuff, he might see it as fake or he might think marv would be MORE aggressive towards what he was picking at you for or something like that. I think its possible too that he thinks your both mafia thus a scum team and not that your interaction looked sketchy.
In regards to what he saw for marv, this:
On February 21 2014 08:58 raynpelikoneet wrote:
because now you talk shit. and onlt shit.
Leads me to believe that he thinks marv has stopped doing stuff and was doing a lot of useless posting. For example, part of the conversation he had with kush, the teasing of prplhz, how people can't understand his posts.
The "I thought this was about Koshi" was about this, but I don't know why he posted that cause he could have just tried to figure it out himself. You guys were talking about Koshi, but only because you were picking at CFP for it and marv thought it was hypocritical.
On February 21 2014 08:39 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 08:37 suki wrote:On February 21 2014 08:29 marvellosity wrote:
I dunno, I gotta re-read everything you and balla said to each other. Didn't parse it very well the first time and it seems like it should be important.
My point with the Koshi thing is you're effectively calling him out for the same thing you did in the first place. If you're saying I'm not giving reads and not analyzing . . . Well I am trying. I want to hear your opinion on me because it seems you've been picking at my words for a while but not actually coming out and saying whether you think that makes me town or scum. That's not what I'm saying. I picked holes in your Koshi case and now you're picking effectively the same holes in what Mr Smurf said. Not that you're not giving reads or analysing or something, dunno how you even thought that? I thought your case made you quite suspicious but I don't have a firm opinion on you until I read your exchange with Balla again.
Rayn probably lightly thought you could be a scumteam so he decided to do an unexplained vote to see what your reactions would be.
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On February 21 2014 11:04 Oatsmaster wrote:
So if he comes up with absolute crap he is scum but if he posts nothing he is town? I dont see the connection here.
nothing changed really although I really didnt like smurfs play by play of the thread so hes scummier.
What didn't you like? Just cause he went page by page?
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i don't like how palmar voted kush, then balla and suki followed up and then he said "wait a minute scummy people are voting for my scum read it's probably a bad read then" and then he moved his vote to toad
also suki made a giant case on balla seems unlikely for scum to do that on d1 when they could just not do that
so i'm not really convinced by palmar moving his vote from kush to toad
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I didnt like it because it was just total vomit with not any direction. Like he went through the thread reacting like he was posting at that time instead of just doing it out of the thread. I dont see why he did it in thread other than 'contribution'.
Yeah so basically it was stuff that really shouldnt have been in the thread and he did nothing with it.
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I want to know why Palmar, who earlier on defended kush, decided to vote kush after marv posted his 'kush might be mafia' post.
I don't like that he straight up refused to answer when Balla and I both asked him to explain.
He unvoted kush saying he all the people on the wagon were scummy to him (at the time it was me, Balla and prplhz).
Palmar has seen prplhz as townie for the whole game so he probably wasn't referring to prplhz as scummy.
On February 20 2014 18:40 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 18:37 Koshi wrote:
@rayn
prplhz contradiction is something I don't perceive as scummy btw. But I can give him a scummy point. I don't think it is a contradiction at all and I think the whole exchange makes prplhz look pretty good.
On February 21 2014 08:18 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 07:34 prplhz wrote:On February 21 2014 07:22 Palmar wrote:
##Unvote
##Vote Toad
This wagon is terrible, I don't even know what idiot started it. what did kush do to make you think he is town He managed to get all the scummy people voting for him.
So Palmar this game has been pushing a Toad lynch pretty much consistently and been saying Balla and I look scum. He has an unexplained vote on kush (who he had a town read on previously) sheeping marv, and then a quick unvote saying all the scummy people are voting for him even though his town read was also on kush.
Things that I find scummy are that
1) Palmar is not being transparent with his actions and thoughts around kush
2) He's not pressuring Toad even though Toad has contributed recently.
3) He's not pushing the Toad lynch except to say 'he's scum', which makes me think he doesn't actually care if toad is lynched or not.
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Whats wrong with that prp? generally scum does vote with their scumreads who they know are town so therefore get cred but Palmar isnt doing that.
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i don't think i gave a read on toad so let me say that i never really understood the case (rayn's 3 options and that stuff) at all but i don't think he did a lot this game so i'm not opposed to a toad lynch at all
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On February 21 2014 11:13 Oatsmaster wrote:
Whats wrong with that prp? generally scum does vote with their scumreads who they know are town so therefore get cred but Palmar isnt doing that.
wat
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why would Palmar do that as scum.
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my problem is that palmar thinks one is scum, then two other people he think are scum makes him switch his vote to a fourth person he also thinks is scum
and the two people who made him switch don't look at all like they are scum together
it's a lot of weird associative reads on d1
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On February 21 2014 11:15 Oatsmaster wrote:
why would Palmar do that as scum.
what do i know maybe he doesn't want to push a guy to a lynch who is town or maybe he likes a toad lynch better or whatever make something up
don't you think it's weird that palmar is making bad associative reads?
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I really don't understand why he didn't put his vote on me instead of Toad. His vote on toad was so useless then considering toad wasnt even there anymore and toad made a case on ME, when he thinks im scummy. He didn't even re-evaluate toad after that. Then he refuses to answer my questions.
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EPT
