EPTA Quiet Game of Mini Mafia - Page 6
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 09 2014 16:12 raynpelikoneet wrote: So bugs, which townie scum did try to lynch on D1? Who the fuck knows, I'm not scum. They clearly weren't coordinated enough to get any votes on townies. Cora voted Yamato and so did thrawn but that doesn't mean Yamato has to be town any more than it means thrawn has to be scum. The idea itself is pretty ridiculous on its own merits and it's tied to why people say don't connect flips. He voted Yamato initially but that itself doesn't mean much, particularly as scum distance each other and even more so when it was clear that he and Yamato were two of the strongest candidates. He voted me and also attacked WoS as well. These posts in particular are pretty interesting, though: On January 08 2014 13:25 Corazon wrote: Stop stop stop stop stop Rayn and Thrawn. Thrawn - lynching Rayn D1 is a bad idea. If Rayn is town, he is going to be a great asset to us going forward. He should be a policy lynch if he lasts longer than N2. Rayn - you need to stop OMGUSing and overreacting when people vote for you. This debate isn't going to help anyone. This is exactly what derailed the game in BttB. I'm begging for you to please drop this silly argument and resume it D2 or D3. We don't need this right now. Let's focus on actual scummy people like WBG, Yamato, and the inactives (in my opinion, CC, Yamato, Artanis (to an extent), Kush (to an extent, and mkfuba). On January 09 2014 04:28 Corazon wrote: Well Rayn, how can you tell my usefulness when you don't give me any breathing room. Are you really saying that I am going to be more useless than Kush, CC, fuba, gumshoe, Artanis, and Yamato? I'm here! I'm talking to you and I'm continuing to let you figure out my alignment. If we get down to MYLO, you are going to have a fairly decent opinion about my alignment. You cannot say the same about the people I listed above. I can help out town but it's hard to scumhunt when the mobs are coming after you the moment you try to get anything done. In the first post, gumshoe is missing. In the second, he's reappeared, note that by the second post corazon was under much more pressure. Anyway my point overall is basically that we cannot assume anything about anyone's alignment. No one is confirmed yet, and just because Cora attacked Yamato d1 it does not mean Yamato is guaranteed to be town. Sure, it makes him look townier, but that doesn't matter at all if he's going to continue to be worthless. So far Yamato has proven to be continuing his previous play despite trying to use the flip to better his own image, which is a very anti town thing to do. You don't establish yourself as a townie by calling yourself confirmed. You establish yourself as townie by finding scum. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
If it didn't sound like you were all clueless I wouldn't have to keep yelling at you for forgetting the newbie guide. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 09 2014 16:37 yamato77 wrote: Do you think WoS voting reasoning is scummy or no? Basically, CTRL + F his filter, find his vote posts, and tell me what you think Not in the least, no, WoS's reasoning at least to me seems very organic. The tone and thought process he displays is completely open and actually quite thorough. If more townies played like him it'd be great, because even if their reads are wrong you can be sure they've given you a real opinion that they've independently thought about, regardless of what you end up doing with that opinion. While I didn't agree with some things he said, almost everything he's said so far makes complete sense from a town perspective. The only thing that can be labelled at all scummy is the hesitation to vote corazon, but even that has a far likelier town explanation-he was probably afraid his interaction with Cora (the one that's really hard to fake if they're both scum, btw) caused his opinion on him to be biased. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
JAT Artanis Fuba Kush Gumshoe | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
I was preparing a post to say that tomorrow we should kill between Artanis, fuba and gumshoe tomorrow. I was going to wait till deadline and post that anyone who attacked gumshoe in the meanwhile is probably scum because he did several things throughout the night that were really townie. The number of players who decided to do fuck all was way too high. I will reiterate that I am not going to be playing for a while as long as players like kush get a free pass. That's only possible when there are other people in the game who are also lurking/doing nothing. iamp, rayn, thrawn, and WoS all looked to me townie enough to discuss things with (even if rayn would often say things that are really weird) Yamato, on the other hand, was the one super confusing factor. He did fuck all even though he was around the entire time. Obviously now it's probably true that he actually was demoralized but if this is a thing that has been happening in recent games to you then by all means take a break. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Had the scum target been a little calmer or had not said such weird things throughout the game, I don't think we would have stepped off Yamato. It felt to me as if I was dealing with a scum in Corazon after he kept blatantly lying, but I was hesitant to engage him because I don't know his play at all. I looked into his past games and it seemed to confirm the idea but the faked anger kept giving me doubts. So I just ignored him at that point (you can sort of tell where in my posts I stopped poking him/calling him scum) and I think WoS did the exact same thing shortly afterward, which reinforced my opinion. Had Yamato not made a couple of posts that made us question his lynch though I'm sure we would've killed him instead. | ||
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How many people after the lynch thought CC was scum? How many people did we have in the pool to lynch? If one of Artanis/CC died at some point do you think the players who would be left alive would have killed the other, after how they attacked each other? From a per-player standpoint it wasn't anything to cry home about. Aside from about 5 players everyone else didn't really do anything. JAT spent the entire game sort of weakly sheeping people, it wasn't really clear to me that he was town. Artanis and CC were mostly afk and while that makes Artanis more likely to be scum, his level of activity dropped to a point where anybody could argue that he was just neglectfully inactive. Kush did nothing as usual except aggravate half the town by existing. Aside from the players I mentioned before I can't remember anything that the rest did. To read them properly I'd have to go back to my notes to remember what was the thing in their filter that swung the strongest. Did you have strong town reads on all of them? | ||
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Japan10647 Posts
On January 10 2014 00:56 marvellosity wrote: I think bugs has rose-tinted spectacles of how games he used to play in were like... Not really. Activity used to be overall lower, but the number of useless players per game would be maybe 1-2. I decided to stop playing earlier this year because I was truly tired of 1.) playing with people like Kush. Even sinani and co did more than this guy 2.) trying to play a proper mini where people actually pull their own weight, regardless of alignment. And I will also say that activity seems higher because we have so few players now that consolidate posts. Almost everyone now is conversational, which actually could very well be a reason for the stark difference in activity between the most active and least active players. | ||
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Japan10647 Posts
On January 10 2014 01:00 justanothertownie wrote: I tend to look townier the longer the games goes on. I admit that my Day1 play generally sucks and I am often attacked early on but in the later stages of the game I am almost always a universal townread. I think this might be similar for some other players. Predicting that nobody would lynch the second half of CC/Artanis in the end makes no sense. In my experience things like that have less influence on peoples reads the longer the game goes on. Okay, well let me put it this way. I have won games from Artanis's position. My second scum game, 9 player mini. My partner got lynched day 1 and we still ended up winning. My point with regards to CC/artanis is that assuming neither was modkilled, as even the host said, I seriously doubt CC would have gotten serious lynch attention, ever. Towards lylo there are fewer players to kill but by that point the players who are left do not all that often make the best plays. And again, precedent exists for this. Similar thing to this game happened in June with GM's smurf mini. Scum got replaced instead of mod killed and the town didn't lynch the replacements...because they were replacements. | ||
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On January 10 2014 01:03 marvellosity wrote: Who would you say was 'useless' or 'didn't try' this game? You can say kush, ok. Useless != bad Like you ranted quite unfairly at jat for extended periods of time, but jat put in decent effort. He was trying. What were his reads? He was differentiable from Corazon for small, varying reasons. But you really can't say that some of these players would have been spared lynch if the scum team wasn't so weak. Come on, this happens so often I can't believe you're tryin to argue this. I feel like the results of the game are tinting your opinion. The results don't fucking matter. | ||
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Japan10647 Posts
On January 10 2014 01:09 justanothertownie wrote: I don't say that it is impossible. But I also don't think it is very likely. I am pretty confident we could have figured this out with this town. Whatever, this is all speculative. Again, the precedent already exists for what I am saying. Scum being weak was a very very strong factor in our favor. E: I' m also not purposely trying to be a downer. I'm just concerned that the take back from this game is going to be that "town played fine" and people aren't going to change their attitudes about how they approach the game. Scum play has notoriously been awful, so when a team of relatively decent scum comes along they end up wrecking face. It's actually scary that people have such poor memories when it comes to how games can be lost so quickly even when the results are good if the process is shitty. | ||
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On January 10 2014 01:12 marvellosity wrote: Oh, don't you dare, bugs, my thinking isn't that shallow ^^ I've been around in plenty of games you've played in, and I've read a bunch of others from before i came to the forum. jat's level of effort/contribution is in no way below the "average" standard 2,3,4 years ago or whatever. Townies have and will always struggle with day 1, some townies will play better than others, not everyone is going to be bleeding town from their pores in every single game at every single moment, and not every townie is going to be catching mafia left right and centre Town didn't magically have 70%+ winning rates in years gone by... I'm picking at this because the complaints you're making are possibly generally valid in the current TL meta, but I think they're pretty unfair when applied to the players in this game in particular. Almost everyone was trying to at least a somewhat decent extent. wtf? You weren't there for those games, you don't even understand. You also dodged my question, what were his reads?? Most of the reads in this game were supplied by around 3-5 people. And you also know just as well as I do that results don't matter and they are a poor predictor of the success of a play style. This town didn't do anything above average. Do you think the scum were average? Below average, certainly. So think, what happens when the scum are not?? | ||
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On January 10 2014 01:17 marvellosity wrote: it's nothing to do with you, jat darling <3 It isn't, I'm just making an example. Because I believe marv is wrong. I think Ace/BC would probably back me up on this because they tend to have similar opinions about what would happen if scum pull their own weight. It's about both things in combination, really. | ||
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On January 10 2014 01:20 marvellosity wrote: ok, you're not going to get this. I'm not claiming this town were amazing, or that mafia weren't weak (they were) - rather that the large majority of townies were putting in reasonable effort, whether they were playing well or not Suffice to say I think your classification of the level of play and what is generally expected of townies is quite a long way off base. So do you think that town would have won if scum this game played better? I honestly don't. E: like, the standard seems to have been lowered from "establish towniness by making reads" to just "establish towniness" which is just fucked up. It means any scum who is able to do that even without having strong fake reads will just stomp all over the place. | ||
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On January 10 2014 01:25 marvellosity wrote: that's not the point? The point is you're coming in here saying you don't want to play anymore because townies aren't trying or pulling their weight or whatever That's a different complaint from "townies are bad". The result of the game is irrelevant (as you kindly pointed out) You can look at townies in this game and say maybe they didn't play excellently, but nothing that says you don't want to play games like this? Sure, maybe I need to explain myself a bit better. It's a matter of coin flip whether the scum team ends up having good players or crappy ones. I think the forum has consistently shown that most players have very little interest in playing scum, and because the majority of the playerbase doesn't really see good play all that often they can't emulate it either. (And that goes for both alignments) Supposing the next time if town is similar to this and the coin ends up flipping an average scum team the game will be awful. I've been there, and the most often it's happened is in the last year (most of my recent mini games, I have not enjoyed). I stopped playing large games because I didn't like how many people would afk in large games or just not really provide reads. That mentality has pushed into all games by now I feel. On January 10 2014 01:27 marvellosity wrote: Like christ, Palmar almost got me lynched a year ago in LVIII because I was playing terribly and I had no real reads, and I argued my way out of it and BC got lynched instead for doing nothing. And BC and I are hardly weak players... That's just what happens from game to game, some people will play strongly, some will play weakly But as long as people are trying, then that's what really matters Oh trust me, I remember being pretty pissed off about this :p LIX was really the only large game in a long time that I can remember that was enjoyable for me. The minis have been declining in quality too, I think it was a game Artanis hosted (magic, no themed?) that I also liked. I don't really recall any others except further back. | ||
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On January 10 2014 01:32 marvellosity wrote: Ok. I understand your angle, but I think you're being a little over-pessimistic, especially within the context of this game. I'm 99% sure this is because the game was won by town. I can guarantee that if town lost I'd be saying similar things and people would be agreeing with me. Cause, that's exactly what always happens. On January 10 2014 01:34 iamperfection wrote: It seems like your just applying it to the wrong game here bugs. Like kush is really the only person you can be very disappointed in his play. And you cant really say the game would have been awful with different scum players who knows how the game plays out at that point. Read above. I'm pretty sure the only reason you're saying this at all is because the game was won by town. It hasn't seemed to me like play has changed, which means, again, when scum are half decent the game will be very frustrating to play. That's basically just dependent on a couple players rolling scum who don't feel like afking their way to victory. | ||
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wherebugsgo
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I'm dumb, you're right, town played fine. There are no problems here.  | ||
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No matter how they respond you end up with something useful. The worst case is they give you something that doesn't really answer your question (or nothing at all) and even that is useful since you can use that to change/further reinforce your read of them, instead. | ||
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Japan10647 Posts
I appreciate the nice words on my play but I really don't think it was all that special. I would say that some nice games to read at least IMO and sort of ordered by usefulness are: Some Mafia Game. One of my first games on the forum, I wasn't satisfied with my play, especially as I was pretty new but I think other players in the game displayed some pretty decent play, particularly the scum and what they were able to get away with. My first exposure to kush-like players started here (although I think saying that might truly be an insult to sinani). The really nice thing about this game is that Ace provided some really good analysis and notes in the postgame. Town didn't have a great overall showing but individual play was pretty decent. PYP: Interesting This is a PM game but I think one of the single strongest showings by town, if not the strongest, I've seen on the forum. Much of the PM action is sadly hidden away and I can try to provide some more details if necessary as to what happened but the postgame analysis mostly does it justice as far as I could remember. Storm Mafia I was pretty fucking pissed off at RoL in the postgame for this one but I still think it was a pretty good showing from all sides. BC, RoL, myself, and layabout were on the scumteam, while town had syllo and kita, both of whom are pretty fucking scary townies, especially as kita was a goddamn hider IIRC. I believe VE was the SK who ended up winning? I think. I think I mostly succeeded in my goal in completely distracting town as much as I could. I play an active scum because to deviate from my town play would result in certain death (also cause I have to shit up the thread anyway :p ). I think this game is a good learning experience from several different perspectives. From scum perspective you can read the game through BC's or my shoes, from town's both syllo and kita played really well, and VE gave an incredible 3p performance. Mini X. I've cited this game before as one of my favorites that I've participated in. It has a very low overall post count compared to games we get today, but the content and quality of the posts from almost everyone in the game are quite good. I think this was jaybrundage's first or one of his very first games on the forum-everyone else in the game was reasonably experienced by that point I think, with at least half a dozen games or so. Mafia XLIV There is nothing at all amazing about this game-in fact, as a 30 player game most of it is awful, but I remember it well because it was my first game. It is, in fact, a textbook example of why lurkers and useless townies lose games and make for a very unpleasant playing experience-there were like 5 or 6 inactivity modkills and even among the players who were left, most of them did nothing. I tried games of this size for a long time afterward but I don't think I really ever enjoyed them unless they were themed with a fair number of good players in the ranks. The only reason I am linking it here is because of how Foolishness played in this game (and basically every game I've seen him roll town). In a sea full of average and against cresting waves of jubjub Foolishness always manages to have stellar reads and an uncanny ability to go from completely nondescript to town leader within hours. Maybe it's the way he presents his cases, his reputation of being really accurate, the fear he instills among scum, his sexiness, or just everything in combination, but I think anyone who wants to get better at the game should learn from how he plays. Couple's therapy. This game was also controversial for the endgame but overall a pretty interesting learning experience I think. It's basically a 9 role mini with 18 players hydraed in pairs-since there was almost always at least one of the members of each pair in the thread at any given time, even if some of the players were inactive there was bound to be some representation from everyone at every point in the game, so participation on the whole was quite high. Liar Game Setup was weird and aside from one or two people for the most part the caliber of the game was really high because it was an invite game. Kinda confusing especially without the PMs in hindsight though. I'd say the same for Bureaucracy Mafia, although I lived only to die n1 in that game, so my memory is pretty weak there. e: I will also say that I was pretty pleased with some of the games I hosted, though a couple were relatively lopsided. I cohosted one with Incog, I forget which. XVIII? XVII? something like that. Radfield was in that game if I remember correctly and he, like Foolishness, always is spot on as town. Arkham Asylum hosted by BC is a decent example of how a strong scumteam can tear apart town. Some of our plays were kinda dumb and excessive or unnecessary, but we more than made up for it by acting cohesively, planning out our moves well in advance, providing the newer players on the team with leadership to prevent them from doing dumb things, and keeping constant pressure on town with high levels of activity. Read day 1 of Kaller game and my filter for the lulz: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=313991&user=wherebugsgo&view=all (also GoT mafia in which I was an unkillable 3p. I just trolled all the time) And then LoTR Mafia, another one of those games with a pretty controversial endgame. | ||
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