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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On January 26 2014 08:55 kitaman27 wrote:makes me wish we were on foolishness I'm going to reread austin and marv for the sake of making sure that I'm not missing the big picture.
Here's the big picture:
On January 24 2014 06:01 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +
Foolishness (3): VisceraEyes, gonzaw, WaveofShadow
Promethelax (2): Foolishness, Kitaman27
Kitaman27 (1): Promethelax
Sandroba (1): marvellosity
This is probably the best place to start with the voting analysis. With 50 minutes to go, the Foolishness vs Prom lynch is wide open. At this point, mafia has their choice of either player to flip. In a town vs town scenario, mafia generally prefer to vote the player that is not going to flip. That gives them an excuse to push the same player the next cycle, rather than finding a new target to go after. In town vs mafia, it can usually go two ways. A strong scum player will give their support to their scum buddy by voting the town candidate. From my experience, it is pretty rare to see a mafia player vote their own scum buddy in a close lynch early. A weaker scum player will generally wait until more town votes come in and there is a clearer picture of where the lynch is heading. They may decide to vote for their scum buddy later on if they think that is where the lynch is heading. If they can put their vote on an buddy that isn't going to flip, that's usually the preferred scenario. Show nested quote +Foolishness (3): VisceraEyes, gonzaw, WaveofShadow
Promethelax (3): Foolishness, Kitaman27, sandroba
Kitaman27 (1): Promethelax
Sandroba (1): marvellosity, Next, sandroba comes in with his vote on Prom. This actually makes me reconsider my red Prom read. If it's town vs town here, sandroba doesn't really care and Prom is town. If it's town Prom vs mafia Foolishness, then the vote makes sense. A mafia prom vs a town foolishness doesn't make much sense. It would be incredibly risky to tie the vote up at 3v3 and his little reward. Sure, Foolishness could flip and sandroba might look better, but at the expense of endangering his scum buddy when he could make it 4v2? If the bus is going on, then it must have been a last minute decision because there is little interaction between the two in the thread. Not much reward there either. At this point, I also don't think the mafia team was thinking about a sandroba lynch. With 1/8 votes actually on Sandro, he knows he is going to get in trouble for showing up at the last minute, but I don't think mafia is in "lets bus sandroba" mode. Show nested quote +Foolishness (4): VisceraEyes, gonzaw, WaveofShadow, Promethelax
Promethelax (3): Foolishness, Kitaman27, sandroba
Sandroba (1): marvellosity Prom returns to the thread and moves his vote over to Foolishness. I had an issue with this at the time, but on second thought I think it's fine as town or mafia. He has already shared suspicion of Foolishness earlier in the thread and his vote is going no where on myself. He doesn't seem to consider sandroba, but it's possible that he doesn't see that as an option yet. Show nested quote +Foolishness (5): VisceraEyes, gonzaw, WaveofShadow, Promethelax, Marvellosity
Promethelax (4): Foolishness, Kitaman27, sandroba, Hapahauli
Sandroba (1): marvellosity Hapa joins Prom, Marv joins Foolishness. Not much to say here. Vote could still go either way. Show nested quote +Foolishness (5): VisceraEyes, gonzaw, WaveofShadow, Promethelax, Marvellosity
Promethelax (4): Foolishness, Kitaman27, sandroba, Hapahauli
Sandroba (1): marvellosity
gonzaw (1): HolyFlare I think this vote from Holy eliminates a Fool-Holy and Prom-Holy mafia team. As a player without any value for the mafia team due to replacement, unless a mafia Holy is 100% cut off from all communication with his scum team, I think he would vote to save a buddy, rather than abstain, even if he wasn't totally caught up. Show nested quote +Foolishness (6): VisceraEyes, gonzaw, WaveofShadow, Promethelax, Marvellosity, Hapahauli
Promethelax (3): Foolishness, Kitaman27, sandroba
Sandroba (1): marvellosity
gonzaw (1): HolyFlare At this point, it seems pretty likely that Foolishness is getting lynched with only 10 minutes left in the day. The vote swap to sandroba comes in the following order: gonzaw, austin, marv, Hapa, Prom I don't see this as a swap that was mafia driven. It's likely that they were caught off guard here. I have a strong town read on gonza/Hapa, and I'm thinking town Prom due to the reasoning above. marv I was suspicious of most of yesterday before the lynch, but he plays a strong role here and makes some good points throughout the later part of the cycle. Unless it's marv + foolishness (which seems unlikely), I'm leaning town on him as well. I don't feel that I have a good grasp on austin. He does play a role in the lynch by getting on sandroba 2nd in the swap, but he seemed mostly willing to go with where the town lead him. If Hapa/marv went to Prom instead, it seems like he would have joined them. If there is a mafia in this group of 5, it seems like it would be him, but I need to think more about that. Finally, we have Foolishness. Based on the way the votes went down, I'm struggling to see who the third scum buddy would be if he is mafia. I don't think he would be with Holy due to the reasons I mentioned earlier. Does VE or WoS really leave Foolishness out to dry by leaving the thread when he is in trouble? marv has too many interactions with him, unless they are trying to put on a show. Prom seems unlikely. gonzaw and Hapa look town, unless there is something I'm really overlooking. That really only lives Foolishness/sandroba/austin. I suppose that could be a possibility with austin being on the "anyone but Foolishness" side of things. It might also explain why austin was reluctant to vote prom when he seemed to be one of his preferred targets a bit before the swap since it would mean all three scum players would be on the same player, which could get ugly late game. I'm somewhat concerned with the fact that he doesn't seem to consider that I could be mafia at any point in the game. From my experience, I usually get called town by the mafia players, while town players are a bit more paranoid. sandroba and austin are also guilty of that this game. I'm probably still leaning town on him, though less so than others. It seems to be that the individuals who were absent are the ones most likely to be mafia (VE, WoS, Holy), which seems to be where the town is leaning as well. I'm going to reread all three when I have the time.
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On January 26 2014 08:56 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2014 08:24 gonzaw wrote:On January 26 2014 08:09 Foolishness wrote:On January 26 2014 08:00 gonzaw wrote:On January 26 2014 07:58 Foolishness wrote:On January 26 2014 07:53 kitaman27 wrote:
Didn't you want to lynch Holy before sandroba? Has Toad's play changed your mind on him or is it just that WoS's and VE's play is just much worse since then? Yes I did. I thought Holy was mafia based on his posts and his replacement posts. After the lynch I went back and reread them and thought "okay I can see him as town saying these things even if they are suspect". As I said earlier I go back and forth on his posts.. Why didn't you make any post about this? You didn't care to tell us why you changed your mind on your lead scum suspect? (Remember, your other "lead" scum suspect Prome was town to you after your analysis) Anyways, VE lynched I guess ....welp Because I was focused on the day 1 vote switched. There was a lot of good information in that, including the timing of the votes on how sandroba voted for Promethelax. That was higher priority since I knew that it could possibly nearly-confirm 5 people as town. Would you rather try to confirm 5 people as town or 1 person as mafia? I went through the votes and all the timing to make sure that that analysis is sound because it sets the town in motion for an accurate plan to win the game. Also because it was pointed out that VE and WoS were likely mafia because of the votes on me. When this was brought up with compelling arguments I focused on WoS because he was one of my initial suspects day 1. Since HolyFlare got replaced I thought that Toad could have a day to convince us of his alignment, and that seemed okay because town was focused on VE and WoS. And that was good for the town and the right thing for the town to do. If the town spent the entire day debating about HolyFlare and newcomer Toad it would not have been as productive. And that's still true even after VE now flipped green. I'm not convinced. You make no mention of that. Only NOW you are explaining yourself, instead of explaining yourself when you should have (i.e when you actually had these thoughts). How did I not make myself clear? I explained my thoughts about the votes here, and here, and here. In that last post I explained why I was onto WoS again. In subsequent posts I explained why I was going in that direction and I clearly wasn't hiding any information. I didn't make mention of my read on HolyFlare? That's right I didn't, because why is it necessary when I'm bringing other information to the town? Crucial and new information about the votes and the timing of the votes.
I'd say information about your top scum read is "crucial" Foo, yes.
You don't just ignore (in the thread) your "top" scumread, and only explain yourself 72 hours after that.
Also your "crucial" information was useful on N1 for a little while. You had all N1 and all D2 to at least mention Holy/Toad or something. There is absolutely NO excuse for you not to do that.
On January 26 2014 08:56 Foolishness wrote:
Question for you now: this isn't the first time I've explained something and you said you were "not convinced". Furthermore, when I bring up facts and thoughts about the game thus far you seem to ask questions about other related things instead of bringing up my points directly and either refuting them or disagreeing with them. This tells me that you are actually in agreement with a lot of things that I'm saying and are just trying to look for things about me that may or may not be there. Are you so concerned about the slim chance of me being mafia that you are willing to sacrifice the good of the town just to make sure?
What?
You never mention what happened to the read of your top scum suspect in 72 hours.
Now you are rationalizing it and giving some excuses and whatever. Yes, they could be true, perhaps, but I'm not convinced.
That's what it means, nothing more, nothing less.
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Of course, when I mention "top scumread" is what you've been posting in the thread. I.e, the last time you talked about that guy, he was your top scum read. If you don't mention him, don't interact with his replacement, etc, there is no reason for us to believe your read on him changed or not.
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@gonzaw, + Show Spoiler [your post] +On January 26 2014 08:50 gonzaw wrote:
Anyways, apparently that "super bad case" from WoS about VE being town was right......
...congratz Wave?
@Foo: You think scum Wave was buddying up to VE there then? Your read of him changes nothing based on that fact? He defended VE ever since D1 (way WAY back), and he kept consistent with it.
At points even he felt almost compelled to vote VE based on VE doing some shit, yet didn't.
Also, please explain, in really attentive detail, what makes you go from having Holy as sure scum on D1, to having Toad as "very very likely town" right now. I mean, from your POV you have 3 people to be scum, and you leave Toad out of it.
From what you've been posting I don't see anything to make me think you really think he's super duper town. So what is it? Care to point out some quotes, or something?
@Toad: What do you think of Foo apparently buddying up to you now? I mean, he called you the most likely scum after VE, yet now he backed out of that apparently and thinks kita is scum with Wave.
You "know" he's scum, so do you think he'd continuously buddy up to you to bus his teammate kita? He could have easily said "WoS/Toad" up there. That would be consistent with what he said last night, and from your POV it would be on 2 townies. That'd be good for a kita+Foo scumteam right?
On January 26 2014 08:53 gonzaw wrote:
Anyways, I kind of feel good about kita, regarding the deadline activities.
He was here all throughout before deadline, poking Foo, even trying to figure out with me if we should lynch either VE or Foo. I.e he was engaged trying to figure out the lynch.
Toad, if you think kita is scum, do you see him doing this? Specially if he attacks his scumbuddy Foo and the like?
If you think Wave is scum, do you think he'd defend VE SO MUCH all over D1 and D2, yet bus his buddy Foolishness all D1 and all D2?
I had this secondary post when Kita unvoted and it instantly popped into my mind:
On January 26 2014 06:34 Toadesstern wrote:
Well this might be another explanation to gonzaws question: Mafia was confident that foolishness isn't going to get lynched because VE would keep doing whatever and this all ended up being a minor gamble.
Gonzaw, come over to the sunny side, we still have cookies.
Yeah I think he could, mafia's bound to do go to extremes to even have a chance at this so might as well go a bit risky there.
About Foo buddying me? I don't make anything if it yet. I said that I thought foolishness it townie while catching up because he had a bunch of posts that I simply agreed with and we both thought exactly the same way about things, it's his final conclusions that freak me out. So him having the same thoughts as I isn't really an issue here if he'd just for once get to the same conclusions as I do...
It's always this sudden "yeah sandro mafia but he's a bad lynch"
"yeah holy mafia but let's forget about this"
"yeah VE looks really bad but let's get Toad back in this instead"
"yeah I agree with Toad on VE but let's lynch VE nevertheless"...
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
Gonzaw I'm not answering or responding to anything you say until you answer my question to you:
On January 26 2014 08:56 Foolishness wrote:
Question for you now: this isn't the first time I've explained something and you said you were "not convinced". Furthermore, when I bring up facts and thoughts about the game thus far you seem to ask questions about other related things instead of bringing up my points directly and either refuting them or disagreeing with them. This tells me that you are actually in agreement with a lot of things that I'm saying and are just trying to look for things about me that may or may not be there. Are you so concerned about the slim chance of me being mafia that you are willing to sacrifice the good of the town just to make sure?
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
And I'd suggest you answer that question very carefully.
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1)Show me which times I was "not convinced" about direct stuff that I apparently agreed on
2)Just because you make sense on somethings it doesn't mean you are town (for instance the "vote analysis").
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On January 26 2014 09:47 Foolishness wrote:
And I'd suggest you answer that question very carefully.
Don't see how that question is that relevant.
On January 26 2014 08:56 Foolishness wrote:
Question for you now: this isn't the first time I've explained something and you said you were "not convinced". Furthermore, when I bring up facts and thoughts about the game thus far you seem to ask questions about other related things instead of bringing up my points directly and either refuting them or disagreeing with them. This tells me that you are actually in agreement with a lot of things that I'm saying and are just trying to look for things about me that may or may not be there. Are you so concerned about the slim chance of me being mafia that you are willing to sacrifice the good of the town just to make sure?[/QUOTE]
It's not so slim now.
Just based on stuff posted about people, I'd say there are more "solid" cases against you than against WoS or kita right?
Certainly more than against kita.
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EBWOP:
+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2014 09:59 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2014 09:47 Foolishness wrote:
And I'd suggest you answer that question very carefully. Don't see how that question is that relevant. Show nested quote +On January 26 2014 08:56 Foolishness wrote:
Question for you now: this isn't the first time I've explained something and you said you were "not convinced". Furthermore, when I bring up facts and thoughts about the game thus far you seem to ask questions about other related things instead of bringing up my points directly and either refuting them or disagreeing with them. This tells me that you are actually in agreement with a lot of things that I'm saying and are just trying to look for things about me that may or may not be there. Are you so concerned about the slim chance of me being mafia that you are willing to sacrifice the good of the town just to make sure? It's not so slim now. Just based on stuff posted about people, I'd say there are more "solid" cases against you than against WoS or kita right? Certainly more than against kita.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On January 26 2014 09:58 gonzaw wrote:
1)Show me which times I was "not convinced" about direct stuff that I apparently agreed on
2)Just because you make sense on somethings it doesn't mean you are town (for instance the "vote analysis").
Oops! Wrong answer.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On January 26 2014 08:50 gonzaw wrote:
Anyways, apparently that "super bad case" from WoS about VE being town was right......
...congratz Wave?
@Foo: You think scum Wave was buddying up to VE there then? Your read of him changes nothing based on that fact? He defended VE ever since D1 (way WAY back), and he kept consistent with it.
At points even he felt almost compelled to vote VE based on VE doing some shit, yet didn't.
Also, please explain, in really attentive detail, what makes you go from having Holy as sure scum on D1, to having Toad as "very very likely town" right now. I mean, from your POV you have 3 people to be scum, and you leave Toad out of it.
From what you've been posting I don't see anything to make me think you really think he's super duper town. So what is it? Care to point out some quotes, or something?
It's certainly possible scum Wave is buddying up to VE. Why? Because he knows that the remaining 2 mafia (himself and whoever) is in the group of four that I proposed. What is his options as mafia after I come in and demonstrate it's very unlikely town is on the sandroba vote? First off, he (or his buddy or both) have to run interference on me to make sure I don't organize the town and figure them out. That means pressuring me, pissing me off so I can't analyze accurately, and making sure my time is wasted responding to thread questions about my actions instead of reading filters and looking at the game.
And speaking of that, if you ask where my ten page analysis post that you think indicates I'm town is (cause somehow in your mind this is the only way you are able to read me...) it's just as much your fault as it is mine? Why? Because you are demanding answers of me because of paranoia and some of my actions might not make sense to you. I am choosing to spend what time I have responding to you because I believe it is more important to convince the town that I am town instead of just ignoring you guys. I say this because I firmly believe that the 5 people who voted for sandroba are town (and I also think time will confirm this suspicion as well). And I believe that once I am in the clear the path to victory is simple.
Furthermore, you are asking me a lot of questions and at some point you need to make up your mind. Because this cannot and will not continue. We will be running in circles with these questions instead of doing something productive, sooner or later we will be distracting the town. Eventually we're both going to get frustrated at each other (or someone else will get frustrated) and we will start yelling. And this is exactly what the mafia want. They want me getting pissed off at you so I get mislynched, and they want you paranoid at everyone because that's what they need in order to win at this point. You and I and everyone else all know this. I'm not going to let the mafia control my thoughts and you should do the same.
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That was a long tangent. But second, they need 3 mislynches in order to win the game, which means they need to establish themselves as town and find someway to gain town credibility while ensuring that the towns in the group of 4 (or 5 if you include me) get lynched. Of course the mafia can call someone else in the group town, and of course they will call others in the group mafia. They need to push whoever is the easiest lynches and make the town paranoid of me so I get mislynched as well. On the off chance there is a mafia voting for sandroba they need to keep up activity over the remaining days otherwise we will get suspicious of them. There's no reason why a mafia WoS wouldn't call VE town, and there's also no reason why a mafia WoS wouldn't call VE mafia. They can play it either way and at this point they could probably even bus each other.
So no, I don't read into the fact that WoS has been defending VE. Does it make WoS slightly more town? Sure. But the fact that he defended him means nothing, it's how he defended him. I read his initial case on why VE is town and I felt it was misleading and had an agenda behind it.
These posts by HolyFlare are what irked me
+ Show Spoiler +On January 21 2014 23:20 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 23:14 gonzaw wrote:
No marvy im talking about that other game you talked about in the Mafia Awards thread i think (was it Msrio mafia or aomwthing?)
Well holy maybe you could chill down and wait till i get home and finally be able to read the thread. This little chat im having now is mostly to show my process of thougth while i read the thread and have little info and whilr i gain more info. Its a good way to establish one's towniness Well I'm sorry if it comes across as antagonism. I just find it odd that your contribution in your work time would be to mention someone that has little to no posts that are suspicious as hell rather than read the rest of the thread and portray your fresh ideas when you are home. I will take a step back and let you do your thing though. I have yet to play with everyone here so will learn your meta eventually.
+ Show Spoiler +On January 22 2014 06:13 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 06:00 Hapahauli wrote:Realistically though, what is your opinion of Gonzaw's style? I haven't played with him before and I'm not in right now so can't check up on it.
Why is he spending so much time on foolishness? This is such a strange question. 1) Why are you talking about him spending so much time on foolishness, when you haven't addressed any of his arguments? Especially... you know... the largest post in the thread currently? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=18#3592) What is relevant about gonzaw's style so far? He's posted the most content in the thread and has done the most scumhunting of anyone. I don't know how you could raise any questions about his style given what he's posted. 3) Your attitude on Foolishness makes no goddamn sense. In this post, you're deflecting attention from him and puzzled on how gonzaw could spend time on him. Why is he spending so much time on foolishness? ...yet in your posts addressed to me, you repeatedly call foolishness sketchy, scummy, and are generally suspicious of him and his sparse posting. What gives? I do not want to participate in a discussion based on a person with 4 posts, it is futile. Foolishness has posted nothing and gonzaw is spending his entire time focusing on that person. I want to know what Gonzaw is like in other games, does he tunnel like that, does he declare he is not reading the thread till he gets home only to still spend his time on futile research? These are all questions I would like to know the answers to based on people's previous games with him. Just because he has put effort in and has posted does not make him towny. I asked that question specifically to kita because I think me and him are on the same wavelength (he asked gonzaw how long it took him to do the foolishness meta post - what I assumed to be seeing how he was allocating time) and I would like him to elaborate on his thoughts. I have no attitude towards foolishness other than my dislike for his unexplained reads. It's not scummy, it's not towny, I want to know his reasonings before I take my read further. Could he be scum? Yes. Could he be town? Yes. I do not know and cannot know until he posts, so of course my attitude to him would be a net null read.
Because I felt like he was dodging questions and not contributing to the conversation. For some questions his response was just, "got nothing cause I don't know this guy" and I did not feel like he cared about this game.
Reading through Toad's filter it actually seems like he's making a genuine effort to figure out the game. I really like some of his posts here:
+ Show Spoiler +On January 25 2014 04:24 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2014 04:12 gonzaw wrote:
Toad, what do you think about Foolishness' attitude towards you and your predecessor?
I.e instantly finding Holy scummy (because of my case), but never doing anything else about it (other than fleetingly mention him a few times), to him being his 2nd scum read after Prome, to him not mentioning him nor you AT ALL after he had a 100% change of heart on Prome? No idea, I haven't read a single post from Holyflare so no idea if his accusations on my predecessor as you coined it so nicely make sense, btw also something WoS mentioned about me how I kept the reads from Holy... I didn't even know that lol I did ignore it in general as I was seeing the same thing from foolishness about Sandro and it was so extreme that I just thought it has to be an exaggeration until austin pointed out that is indeed weird. He has been on Sandro for a while, called him mafia and suddendly started calling the lynch bad and wasn't willing to vote him. Haven't put too much thought into it. I had to catch up, I had to reread a bunch and as stupid as this situation may be I just can't catch up, reread and at the same time put the same amount of time into reading yet other filters as you guys are doing right now. I have to make this work somehow and I start out with what's #1 on my priority list. Just saying because you still don't seem to understand the situation I'm in. Yes a bunch of stuff I'm going to say will be less in detail than stuff you do and I don't have the time to do proper research like you guys. That's to be expected and there's nothing I can do about that. Yes I'm slightly angry about the fact that you've basicly called me out about not reading carefully enough... Yeah I'm explaining it from the Sandro <-> Foolish perspective but it seems to be the same thing you're getting at? Because like I said I haven't read Holy's posts.
+ Show Spoiler +On January 25 2014 04:36 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2014 04:23 VisceraEyes wrote:
Like, and he was last on the wagon - whether it was a minute or 10 minutes, he voted last on the wagon and was NOT the hammer vote on sandroba. the thing is, if foolishness is mafia that explains why he didn't vote Sandro despite being a very shady explanation. If Sandro and Foolish are mafia together Foolish has nothing to lose, it's either him or Sandro to get lynched, might as well just do nothing and hope that in the confusion of voteswitches Prome (assuming he's town) gets into a more favoreable position to be lynched. If Prom however is mafia as well, so saying it's Sand - Foolish - Prom, that unwillingness from Foolish to vote Sand makes no sense whatsoever. He has nothing to get out of not voting Sand except for a 1-1 trade with Sand which doesn't change a thing for him. Voting Sand however gives him the chance to get some towncred out of it and he WAS around, he could have certaintly voted Sand. It just doesn't make sense if Prom and Foolish are both mafia.
Why? Because it shows a townie mindset as he is trying to make connections between possible suspects and figure out what's going on. He's eliminating possibilities to determine who is likely town based on sandroba connections.
I'm not really sure why he went against that and started calling me mafia. Well, I see his reasons for doing so but to go against his earlier reasoning does seem a bit out of place considering it was at a time when the thread was giving me a bunch of heat. Toad, do you not believe in any of those posts you wrote before?
Also, did I say that HolyFlare was my top scumread? During day 1 WoS was my top town read until he and others convinced me that I was wrong, and then Promethelax was my top read (hence the case on him and voting him). After the flip and I analyzed the votes WoS was my top read (and still is).
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
There's no case against me lol
If I happened to miss a case against me find it and quote it for me so I can respond to it.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
I'm going to quote this as a reminder to us all to be ignorant and not stupid, cause even I'm getting paranoid about what's going on here.
On August 06 2011 20:35 Ace wrote:
Even dumber than 2 years ago.
Player A: Prove you're Town.
Player B: What? That absurdly ridi-
Player A: He can't do it! Lynch him!
Jubjubs (chanting): It makes so much sense! Lynch him!
or the equally stupid because it's the same thing:
Player A: Prove you aren't Mafia.
Player B: ....
Player A: He's defending himself! Lynch him! Defending yourself is a scumtell!
Jubjubs: My god! Why didn't we see this before! *smacks collective forehead*
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. Try to be on the ignorant side, ok?
The people that voted for sandroba are town. WoS is mafia. Kitaman as his partner makes a lot of sense.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On January 26 2014 10:03 Foolishness wrote:
There's no case against me lol
If I happened to miss a case against me find it and quote it for me so I can respond to it.
There are like 4-5 cases against you.
I've posted one, WoS has posted one, gonzaw has posted one, toad has posted one. austin has posted one.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On January 26 2014 10:11 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2014 10:03 Foolishness wrote:
There's no case against me lol
If I happened to miss a case against me find it and quote it for me so I can respond to it. There are like 4-5 cases against you. I've posted one, WoS has posted one, gonzaw has posted one, toad has posted one. austin has posted one.
Quote posts and stop cluttering up the thread.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
I'm guessing you'd be able to pick out the one I'm referring to. (It's the one that says Foolishness is mafia in bold red text)
Anyways, that was from mid-day two, so I'll probably summarize my thoughts in a new post if you want to hold off for that.
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Well, that big wall of text doesn't really tell me much Foo.
I don't want a 10 page analysis of you being town, I want a 10 page analysis of WoS and kita being scum
You made a case on WoS only on D1 and early D2. WoS made lots of posts, posted new reads, new cases, made more effort, had more activity, etc etc since then.
You never mentioned kita either before, yet now he "makes a lot of sense as scum". You say that without any reasoning behind it at all.
You keep making walls of text that say nothing basically. Like this one right there, you spend paragraphs basically telling us you figured out the game, that scum are manipulating us, that we should not waver on our stances, bla bla bla.
Where are the reads? Where are the cases? Where is the attempt to push town forward?
In most of the posts you make I get the same feeling. You just go on and on about some stuff, but I see little actual justifications based on the thread. Little quotes, little reasoning, etc. Just speculation (based on you being town most of the time), tangents, and some other kinds of stuff.
Now that you've (I hope) finished reading the thread. What about the other posts from WoS?
You only mentioned his "VE town and Prome scum" posts. What about the rest? Do they not tell you anything else and you keep the same exact read on him?
His activity and engagement of the thread, and let's say, "motivation" throughout this whole D2 is what made me think he's townie, and made others back off him. Do those aspects tell you nothing about him? You think he's faking them as scum? If so, show us why or why not.
On January 26 2014 10:01 Foolishness wrote:
Also, did I say that HolyFlare was my top scumread?.
On January 23 2014 07:11 Foolishness wrote:
sandroba is not a good lynch when Promethelax and HolyFlare are still alive.
On January 23 2014 09:04 Foolishness wrote:
Thus I am in the belief that the votes on sandroba were mostly, if not 100%, town. Including my top suspect Promethelax.
Process of elimination:
1)Holy+Promethelax should die
2)Promethelax is town
3)Therefore, Holy should die.
On January 26 2014 10:08 Foolishness wrote:
The people that voted for sandroba are town. WoS is mafia. Kitaman as his partner makes a lot of sense.
It won't make sense until you show us it does. Because frankly, I don't see it.
On January 26 2014 10:01 Foolishness wrote:These posts by HolyFlare are what irked me + Show Spoiler +On January 21 2014 23:20 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 23:14 gonzaw wrote:
No marvy im talking about that other game you talked about in the Mafia Awards thread i think (was it Msrio mafia or aomwthing?)
Well holy maybe you could chill down and wait till i get home and finally be able to read the thread. This little chat im having now is mostly to show my process of thougth while i read the thread and have little info and whilr i gain more info. Its a good way to establish one's towniness Well I'm sorry if it comes across as antagonism. I just find it odd that your contribution in your work time would be to mention someone that has little to no posts that are suspicious as hell rather than read the rest of the thread and portray your fresh ideas when you are home. I will take a step back and let you do your thing though. I have yet to play with everyone here so will learn your meta eventually. On January 22 2014 06:13 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 06:00 Hapahauli wrote:Realistically though, what is your opinion of Gonzaw's style? I haven't played with him before and I'm not in right now so can't check up on it.
Why is he spending so much time on foolishness? This is such a strange question. 1) Why are you talking about him spending so much time on foolishness, when you haven't addressed any of his arguments? Especially... you know... the largest post in the thread currently? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=18#3592) What is relevant about gonzaw's style so far? He's posted the most content in the thread and has done the most scumhunting of anyone. I don't know how you could raise any questions about his style given what he's posted. 3) Your attitude on Foolishness makes no goddamn sense. In this post, you're deflecting attention from him and puzzled on how gonzaw could spend time on him. Why is he spending so much time on foolishness? ...yet in your posts addressed to me, you repeatedly call foolishness sketchy, scummy, and are generally suspicious of him and his sparse posting. What gives? I do not want to participate in a discussion based on a person with 4 posts, it is futile. Foolishness has posted nothing and gonzaw is spending his entire time focusing on that person. I want to know what Gonzaw is like in other games, does he tunnel like that, does he declare he is not reading the thread till he gets home only to still spend his time on futile research? These are all questions I would like to know the answers to based on people's previous games with him. Just because he has put effort in and has posted does not make him towny. I asked that question specifically to kita because I think me and him are on the same wavelength (he asked gonzaw how long it took him to do the foolishness meta post - what I assumed to be seeing how he was allocating time) and I would like him to elaborate on his thoughts. I have no attitude towards foolishness other than my dislike for his unexplained reads. It's not scummy, it's not towny, I want to know his reasonings before I take my read further. Could he be scum? Yes. Could he be town? Yes. I do not know and cannot know until he posts, so of course my attitude to him would be a net null read. Because I felt like he was dodging questions and not contributing to the conversation. For some questions his response was just, "got nothing cause I don't know this guy" and I did not feel like he cared about this game.
Foo, these are the points about Holy you mentioned before
On January 22 2014 09:22 Foolishness wrote:
At this moment I feel that Promethelax or HolyFlare should be lynched today. Gonzaw's catch on Holyflare's contradiction is really damning and I'm almost ready to pull the trigger just on that. HolyFlare's defense did feel a bit contrived and forced? He did bring up some good points but at the same time I don't feel like he said all that much. That may just be confirmation bias at this point though.
I had HolyFlare on my question mark list since yesterday because as I said it felt like he was here posting but I couldn't remember anything he did and that is troublesome. Gonzaw I brought my arguments against you when you brought forth the analysis against me and I still stand by what I said. However I would not lynch you since you are actually here and posting and bring new information to the thread (and not just information about Holyflare either). There's no reason to doubt your alignment at this point especially if this posting rate keeps up. Same with Austin as well.
That bolded bit made me think you had him as like almost sure-fire scum. I mentioned that contradiction, where Holy kept saying that we should pressure people that were lurking, yet he went balls against me when I pressured you Foo (linky: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=23#442 )
Did this case really make you think he's scum? Based on what you are posting right now it seems it didn't (you don't mention it). If you reread my case now, do you get new thoughts about Holy or something?
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Foo, if I'm being honest, I get the feeling it's you trying to muddle up the waters and stuff.
I don't see you being direct about anything. At one point you call WoS scum, then you call Toad+WoS possible scum team, then you call VE+WoS possible scumteam. Then you back off and just call WoS scum, then now you, out of nowhere, call WoS+kita scum.
You think Holy is sure scum at first, then you still want him dead by the time sandro dies, then you don't mention him at all, then now you mention you thought at some point he might be town but never bothered to tell us that.
You make walls of text with apparent justifications, and going on about the "sandro vote means I'm town", which is immediately followed by "actually it's possible I am scum and Prome town", which you then kind of confuse us by still calling you apparent town from the sandro vote.
Dunno, I don't remember anything "clear" from you Foo, you keep confusing me over and over.
Kind of like this:
On January 26 2014 10:01 Foolishness wrote:
Furthermore, you are asking me a lot of questions and at some point you need to make up your mind. Because this cannot and will not continue. We will be running in circles with these questions instead of doing something productive, sooner or later we will be distracting the town. Eventually we're both going to get frustrated at each other (or someone else will get frustrated) and we will start yelling. And this is exactly what the mafia want. They want me getting pissed off at you so I get mislynched, and they want you paranoid at everyone because that's what they need in order to win at this point. You and I and everyone else all know this. I'm not going to let the mafia control my thoughts and you should do the same.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On January 26 2014 10:27 gonzaw wrote:
You keep making walls of text that say nothing basically. Like this one right there, you spend paragraphs basically telling us you figured out the game, that scum are manipulating us, that we should not waver on our stances, bla bla bla.
Where are the reads? Where are the cases? Where is the attempt to push town forward?
Right here:
+ Show Spoiler +On January 23 2014 09:04 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 08:42 gonzaw wrote:
The only thing I'm kind of scared is if actually Prome is mafia with sandro and this was some weird gambit, in which they planned on actually getting Foolishness lynched instead.
I mean, you do remember Prome's "We policy lynch lurkers no matter what!" line at the beginning of the game, and he then not doing anything at all regarding sandro right?
Oh god....oh god oh man oh god oh man :O O:
...lol. But other than that, I think we are on good tracks I don't think that's actually possible. Look at the order of events. Starting at this point where there are 6 votes on me and 3 on Promethelax (keep in mind this is 12 minutes before the deadline): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=41#820The six votes on me are (in order of when they occurred): VisceraEyes, gonzaw, WaveofShadow, Promethelax, marvellosity, Hapahauli. Now there is definitely some analysis to be done on how these votes accumulated on me but I will save that for later. At this point gonzaw started the switch on sandroba. Austin immediately joined in. Now only gonzaw was voting on me so I'm still winning by a landslide. It's possible that they did this thinking there is no way a bandwagon on sandroba would start, but I highly doubt they would have that attitude. That is, entertain the thought for a second that gonzaw/Austin are actually mafia. They could just hammer the vote on me to ensure a town lynch (incredibly easy for gonzaw to do, Austin could just toss his vote on Promethelax or somewhere else). But that didn't happen. Then marvellosity switches his vote as well. At this point I have 4 votes and Promethelax and sandroba both have 3. Hapa and Promethelax also follow shortly after. It's definitely clear that the switch to sandroba was started and enforced by towns. This was not mafia bussing each other. The big question to answer here is: what reason would mafia have for switching off of me onto sandroba? If I'm town, there's definitely no reason to. I'm hovering around 50% of votes (HolyFlare's vote isn't going to count), it'd be so easy to just ensure that I got voted. The only scenario where the mafia would have reason to switch is if I'm also mafia (which isn't true). But that scenario, however absurd, would be reasonable, thinking that I'm more valuable to the mafia than sandroba is at this point. Thus I am in the belief that the votes on sandroba were mostly, if not 100%, town. Including my top suspect Promethelax. This seems to make a lot more sense given how that went down. What does this all mean? Mafia could have ensured I was lynched if they were on the vote switch, so why bother vote switching in the first place? No, mafia did not vote switch. What's more likely is that the mafia were voting for me but not on the switch (VE, WoS) or the mafia were all voting for Promethelax (me, sandroba, kitaman). Note that kitaman was going against sandroba during day 1. Remember that assuming Promethelax is town, mafia were in a great position at the end of the day. Town Foolishness has 6 votes and the runner up at 3 votes is also town. This is great for them cause they get to decide who's getting lynched. If I'm mafia why is there not more votes on Promethelax and where is my team to defend me? Sure I got kitaman pushing for Promethelax but I was in a desperate situation there. Things wouldn't have unfolded the way they did if that was the case. So instead this means that mafia were likely already voting for me. But they wouldn't want to go with the vote switch since that was on a mafia. VE is the only person that fits this bill since he was strangely absent during lynch time (and he posted 15 minutes after the lynch). WoS would be gone but I did feel his vote on me was questionable (will look into that later don't worry). Mafia were voting for me and were sitting comfortably, and when a vote switch happened they weren't around for it.
+ Show Spoiler +On January 24 2014 04:52 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 01:49 gonzaw wrote:Anyways, nobody listened to me so I'll do it myself: kita makes that "joke-serious" post on sandro here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=12#223That alone doesn't really tell me much about kita though. Later, he keeps doing the "sandro is a good lynch vote him!" stuff, which could be odd if his sandro's buddy. But then he drops it so it's not really alignment indicative. Hmm, although it puts him in a more townie light. For example with this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=14#268http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=14#270Kita's vote on sandro do seem to have a purpose, which is consistent with his posts up there. It is a discussion starter, it does pressure the lurker, etc. I don't find it likely scum kita would start his "game" at the coast of sandro like that. Not strong evidence, but my gut says it makes sense as town kita. Also, in a wifomy way, I think this makes Hapa very likely town (more than he is now): On January 21 2014 09:39 Hapahauli wrote:On January 21 2014 09:31 kitaman27 wrote:On January 21 2014 09:29 sandroba wrote:
I'm trying to figure that out too. My plan as of now is to wait for some scummer to give themselves away in their first post. Not much of a plan if you're going to warn people about what you're looking for. ##Vote Sandroba(Did you catch me?) Normally, even early-game troll votes have some pretense to find someone suspicious/mafia (even if stretched alot). This post doesn't follow. It doesn't call Sandroba scum in any joking/trolling way. You're just calling his actions dumb, then voting for them. Which is a pretty scummy thought process. How are you constructing Sandroba's post to be scummy as opposed to just stupid? If you are scum, and your scumbuddy makes an "awful" first post someone votes him for....do you really chainsaw defend him in such an OBVIOUS manner? Hapa keeps up with this too, going against kita. It feels genuine. Also this: On January 21 2014 11:18 Hapahauli wrote:On January 21 2014 10:51 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 21 2014 10:46 kitaman27 wrote:On January 21 2014 10:39 WaveofShadow wrote:
Welp, gonna go with my usual opener.
I think the only difference here is for the first time I'm actually relieved to roll town. I'd be pretty terrified to go up against this town as scum. I was kinda hoping to role mafia with the all vanilla setup. They probably have the advantage regardless of who is playing. Wanna vote sandroba with me? He may or may not be scummy. lol I'm really hoping you're not scum kita. Nah no reason to vote sandroba yet. Not only is there basically nothing to vote him for, I've seen what he's capable of as the game progresses (from PYP) and if he is town and plays this game anything like that, he'll start slow and then start bringing the pain to scum. I don't understand your reasoning here. What does him being a "slow-starter" have to do with not wanting to vote for him? For example, wouldn't it be arguably good to put pressure on him early to determine his alignment? He even plays devil's advocate when someone defends sandro. He didn't hesitate to do this kind of stuff. I just don't see him doing this being scumbuddies with sandro at all. Of course, there's the rest of his play, but this I think basically convinces me to never lynch Hapa in this game. So, this is our foundation so far
gonzaw
austin
HapaThese 3 are untouchables, remove them from any scumlist, or any "possible" scum list (at least until one of them does something utterly stupid or something). marvy marv is not untouchable yet. But to touch him, you have to do it softly and gently. I don't see any reason why all five of the people on sandroba aren't exempt. Yes I know what I said about marvellosity yesterday and that I would lynch him, but as I pointed out in my previous post here it doesn't seem likely for mafia to hop aboard the sandroba bandwagon. Really the most likely scenario of this happening is the mafia bus of sandroba, and given by the votes and who was voting that would probably mean that I'm mafia as well. I suggest reading my post I linked above again because based on the timestamps and who was voting and why I think it's clear that everyone on sandroba is town (as unlikely as that sounds in terms of raw numbers). Any of the people that switched had good reason to keep their vote on me. Moreso, as I pointed out, it is likely that Promethelax is town because mafia were sitting good with myself being the top lynch and second in line (Promethelax) also a town lynch. The overall point here is that the sandroba bandwagon was not initiated by mafia nor exacerbated by mafia. Mafia were sitting pretty and never expected that sort of switch to happen in the last 10 minutes. Furthermore the votes on sandroba were so close (1 minute apart for the last two) that it's very unlikely Promethelax was like, "oh I can vote for my mafia scumbuddy to gain credibility cause he already has the most votes". No, things happened too fast for it to be planned out like that. No scum would have moved to him at the start, no scum would have moved to him during the middle, and no scum would move to him at the end.
Based on what happened, I suggest we look at WoS as well as VE. I like the arguments brought up against VE so far and I think a lot of the same thing can be applied to WoS as well. In particular lazily throwing his vote down on me. Here are his posts about me after I started posting in the second half of the day up to the point where he voted for me and left. Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 05:38 WaveofShadow wrote:
But I am in no way convinced about Prome by your earlier case, like, at all. Your return simply makes me want to lynch you less. Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 05:52 WaveofShadow wrote:
IF VE is scum I will have a big sad.
I'm quickly running out of time as I won't be here for lynch so I may have to sheep someone---my other strong townreads aren't here atm so it may be gonzaw.
Gonzaw assuming you now hold my vote as well and could place it where you wanted, which of the two you mentioned would you put it on? Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 05:58 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 23 2014 05:54 gonzaw wrote:On January 23 2014 05:52 WaveofShadow wrote:
IF VE is scum I will have a big sad.
I'm quickly running out of time as I won't be here for lynch so I may have to sheep someone---my other strong townreads aren't here atm so it may be gonzaw.
Gonzaw assuming you now hold my vote as well and could place it where you wanted, which of the two you mentioned would you put it on? Foolishness. So not marv/sandroba then. I might still be able to get behind that. His answers were good enough...they fit for lack of a better term, and I'm not bothered by the same thing you are regarding his read of austin but it's the early play that doesn't make sense to me. I can't reconcile his using the barest effort he put in for the first 30 or so hours of the game to first toss a vote up on me and give what appeared to me to be 'not the greatest' reads... I want to re-look over his case on Prome because I already know I thought hsi case on me was pure bunk and I said so earlier---I'm a little too self-focused. Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 06:24 WaveofShadow wrote:
Alright final post, I'm feeling better about dropping my vote here.
Call it a sheep of gonzaw or thread sentiment if you want, if not you can use my current line of questions/suspicion including my earlier problems with his first case on me.
This may be one of the most difficult games I've played in, and it's a good kind of difficult.
##Vote: Foolishness
Be back a little bit after deadline. What is disturbing about this is his wishy-washy behavior about me. He says he doesn't agree with my case on Promethelax, and that's fine in itself, and he also says he wants to "lynch me less". Then before voting for me says that my answers were "good enough" and that they "fit for a lack of a better term", and that it's my "early play that doesn't make sense to me". If my answers are fitting and good enough why are you voting for me? Just cause you don't agree with me on a person being mafia does not make me mafia. I was actually really surprised when he dropped his vote on me, who tells someone that they have good answers but they are still lynching them? What is also interesting is that he's entirely sheeping a read and admitting to it. Admitting to sheeping a read does not exempt you from sheeping a read. Does it seem like he has his own opinion on the matter? Does it seem like he has an idea of who to vote for? No. Look through his posts, he never really accuses anyone, and never says that he thinks person X would be a good lynch (as I said above, he never said that directly about me either). He dances around a lot of people, myself, marvellosity, Promethelax, etc. Sure, he threw his vote down and knew he wasn't going to be here before the deadline, and there is nothing wrong with that. The problem is that he had no opinion on who should be lynched before the vote. Also his vote started a landslide, since there were already 2 votes on me, and at the time the next closest persons had 1 vote. This is a critical vote because it started the pile up on me, and when people came back and saw this they started piling on (even though those people piling on are likely town cause they all jumped ship to sandroba).
+ Show Spoiler +On January 25 2014 09:35 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2014 00:08 kitaman27 wrote:On January 22 2014 07:19 Foolishness wrote:
Austin and sandroba might as well be afk until 3 pages ago, but since coming to the thread both have had strong appearances. I'm okay with them right now because they have brought things to the thread This is the post that still bothers me the most about Foolishness when he groups austin and sandroba in his null reads. Foolishness, I know you stated several times that you were treating sandroba as wait and see, but what are the "strong appearances" and "things brought to the thread" that you are referring to with sandroba's posts. I mentioned earlier that I disagreed with his assessment, but you didn't reply. Could you please point out what you were seeing? This is from a while ago, but his posts I saw when I made that post were: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=20#381http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=21#408And I thought these were fine at the time. A lot of you seem to think that I'm doing things 12 hours after they happened when in reality it's been a lot closer. I saw sandroba and austin both come to the thread and start posting, and I didn't post long after that (a few hours at most). As I said, my mindset was, "well they've been kinda afk so far, but as long as they keep posting I don't have an overwhelming reason to suspect them". Look at my list where I put austin and sandroba in the same category; this is exactly why. Gonzaw kinda brought this up here but let's go through these scenarios cause it's important. Scenario 1Foolishness is mafiaPromethelax is mafiaYes, after seeing that my case on WoS during day 1 didn't have as much merit as I thought at the time, I immediately decided to bus my own teammate. Not only that but I was also under scrutiny in the thread, why would I bring attention to another mafia member when I can push a case on someone else (HolyFlare? Marv maybe?). Better for me to just keep pushing on WoS or pick a new target, no sense is putting two mafia members under scrutiny on day 1. Speaking of HolyFlare, this is off topic from my current explanation but when I went back later on and reread his posts I thought he might be town. I don't even remember why but that's what I thought. I don't like reading into people getting replaced out so I focused my attention elsewhere. If HolyFlare is town I expect Toad to be able to prove it to us sooner and not later. And by sooner I mean end of night 2 at the absolute latest. Secnario 2Foolishness is MafiaPromethelax is townThis is the only scenario out of the three that the town should be worried about as I didn't want to switch to sandroba and even said so straight up (the reason I didn't want to was because I saw Marv move his vote and I was really sketchy about him at the time. I didn't like what I was seeing last minute and I got super scared it was just town derp switching onto another town). But as I pointed out in my earlier posts what is the mafia doing the entirety of day 1 when I'm accumulating votes? As gonzaw pointed out this would only make sense if the entire mafia team (but myself) is afk (so like, HolyFlare also mafia). Furthermore, if I'm mafia and Promethelax is town, then wtf is up with sandroba's vote 30 minutes before the deadline? His post wasn't a mafia post trying to save his buddy, that was a mafia pushing what he perceived to be a safe lynch to make his team look pretty for the future days after I flip town or Promethelax flips town. I think it is even more apparent through the entirety of day 1 as a whole. Where is my mafia team to save me? Are they just afk (we all know mafia games on TL are never that easy)? The only one trying to deflect votes off of me was me. Sure, kitaman and austin both said I was town, but there was never a hard push. It seemed like their attitude was, "yeah Foolishness is town I'm sure, but I got nothing better to propose". Kitaman's push on Promethelax was mediocre at best (in terms of aggressiveness, not content). I was 100% on my own for all of day 1. Scenario 3Foolishness is TownPromethelax is mafiaWhy the hell did sandroba push onto Promethelax when he could have easily just been like, "yo guys I've caught Foolishness as mafia in three separate games on day 1/2, this is a free town lynch"? Doesn't make sense. Secnario 4Foolishness is TownPromethelax is TownI brought this up before, but go back and read sandroba's case on Promethelax. After sandroba's vote both Promethelax and I had 3 votes apiece (if I'm not mistaken here). Mafia were very very very happy with the votes at this time. Town Foolishness is under scrutiny and about to get lynched, and second in line is another town who Foolishness (apparently well-known scumhunter) is 100% convinced is mafia. Wow find me a happier mafia team on day 1 in a normal or all-vanilla game. Sandroba was not throwing his vote down to save someone or push for any lynch. Mafia were happy with who was getting lynched that day and there was no need to do anything about it. THIS NEXT PARAGRAPH IS VERY IMPORTANTLook at this from sandroba's point of view in this scenario. The only people with votes are two townies. He drops his vote on Promethelax with the following mindset. "Let's say Foolishness gets lynched. Sweet, I just push on Promethelax the following day and tell the town, 'yeah guys you fucked that up, Foolishness is best scum-hunter NA we gotta lynch Promethelax now'. Let's say Promethelax gets lynched. Sweet, I just admit my mistake and push Foolishness the following day and tell the town, 'yeah damn sorry about that read, this guy Foolishness is definitely mafia and 100% misled the town into a bad lynch. Many people said that lynch was bad from the beginning we should never have listened to Foolishness'". No matter who got lynched sandroba was in a great position, that is until he himself got lynched instead. Sandroba's vote was not a push to get the town to do something. No, it was lazily cast knowing that both suspects were town and he could ride it through the next day.
THIS SHOWS THAT PROMETHELAX IS TOWNLook at all four above scenarios. Scenario 3 makes the least amount of sense cause then sandroba's vote is an awful mistake. Scenario 1 doesn't make sense cause that means I bussed my own teammate (when I could have easily gone after WoS from the start or anyone else) and oh btw also means Promethelax bussed sandroba last minute (keep in mind him and Hapa voted 1 minute apart so in essence they both hammered that vote). The remaining two scenarios both have Promethelax as town. Because he is. Regardless of what you think of me as well, though the above and my earlier posts should prove my innocence as well. If you guys wanna spend 9 hours going down the conspiracy theory hole then cool story bro. Or you can just look at the facts and deduce the following: Town wins if WaveOfShadow, VisceraEyes, Kitaman, and Toad all die.
Also my time is very limited today and tomorrow but I will try to be here when I can.
+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2014 10:01 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2014 08:50 gonzaw wrote:
Anyways, apparently that "super bad case" from WoS about VE being town was right......
...congratz Wave?
@Foo: You think scum Wave was buddying up to VE there then? Your read of him changes nothing based on that fact? He defended VE ever since D1 (way WAY back), and he kept consistent with it.
At points even he felt almost compelled to vote VE based on VE doing some shit, yet didn't.
Also, please explain, in really attentive detail, what makes you go from having Holy as sure scum on D1, to having Toad as "very very likely town" right now. I mean, from your POV you have 3 people to be scum, and you leave Toad out of it.
From what you've been posting I don't see anything to make me think you really think he's super duper town. So what is it? Care to point out some quotes, or something?
It's certainly possible scum Wave is buddying up to VE. Why? Because he knows that the remaining 2 mafia (himself and whoever) is in the group of four that I proposed. What is his options as mafia after I come in and demonstrate it's very unlikely town is on the sandroba vote? First off, he (or his buddy or both) have to run interference on me to make sure I don't organize the town and figure them out. That means pressuring me, pissing me off so I can't analyze accurately, and making sure my time is wasted responding to thread questions about my actions instead of reading filters and looking at the game. And speaking of that, if you ask where my ten page analysis post that you think indicates I'm town is (cause somehow in your mind this is the only way you are able to read me...) it's just as much your fault as it is mine? Why? Because you are demanding answers of me because of paranoia and some of my actions might not make sense to you. I am choosing to spend what time I have responding to you because I believe it is more important to convince the town that I am town instead of just ignoring you guys. I say this because I firmly believe that the 5 people who voted for sandroba are town (and I also think time will confirm this suspicion as well). And I believe that once I am in the clear the path to victory is simple. Furthermore, you are asking me a lot of questions and at some point you need to make up your mind. Because this cannot and will not continue. We will be running in circles with these questions instead of doing something productive, sooner or later we will be distracting the town. Eventually we're both going to get frustrated at each other (or someone else will get frustrated) and we will start yelling. And this is exactly what the mafia want. They want me getting pissed off at you so I get mislynched, and they want you paranoid at everyone because that's what they need in order to win at this point. You and I and everyone else all know this. I'm not going to let the mafia control my thoughts and you should do the same. ----- That was a long tangent. But second, they need 3 mislynches in order to win the game, which means they need to establish themselves as town and find someway to gain town credibility while ensuring that the towns in the group of 4 (or 5 if you include me) get lynched. Of course the mafia can call someone else in the group town, and of course they will call others in the group mafia. They need to push whoever is the easiest lynches and make the town paranoid of me so I get mislynched as well. On the off chance there is a mafia voting for sandroba they need to keep up activity over the remaining days otherwise we will get suspicious of them. There's no reason why a mafia WoS wouldn't call VE town, and there's also no reason why a mafia WoS wouldn't call VE mafia. They can play it either way and at this point they could probably even bus each other. So no, I don't read into the fact that WoS has been defending VE. Does it make WoS slightly more town? Sure. But the fact that he defended him means nothing, it's how he defended him. I read his initial case on why VE is town and I felt it was misleading and had an agenda behind it.
These posts by HolyFlare are what irked me + Show Spoiler +On January 21 2014 23:20 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 23:14 gonzaw wrote:
No marvy im talking about that other game you talked about in the Mafia Awards thread i think (was it Msrio mafia or aomwthing?)
Well holy maybe you could chill down and wait till i get home and finally be able to read the thread. This little chat im having now is mostly to show my process of thougth while i read the thread and have little info and whilr i gain more info. Its a good way to establish one's towniness Well I'm sorry if it comes across as antagonism. I just find it odd that your contribution in your work time would be to mention someone that has little to no posts that are suspicious as hell rather than read the rest of the thread and portray your fresh ideas when you are home. I will take a step back and let you do your thing though. I have yet to play with everyone here so will learn your meta eventually. On January 22 2014 06:13 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 06:00 Hapahauli wrote:Realistically though, what is your opinion of Gonzaw's style? I haven't played with him before and I'm not in right now so can't check up on it.
Why is he spending so much time on foolishness? This is such a strange question. 1) Why are you talking about him spending so much time on foolishness, when you haven't addressed any of his arguments? Especially... you know... the largest post in the thread currently? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=18#3592) What is relevant about gonzaw's style so far? He's posted the most content in the thread and has done the most scumhunting of anyone. I don't know how you could raise any questions about his style given what he's posted. 3) Your attitude on Foolishness makes no goddamn sense. In this post, you're deflecting attention from him and puzzled on how gonzaw could spend time on him. Why is he spending so much time on foolishness? ...yet in your posts addressed to me, you repeatedly call foolishness sketchy, scummy, and are generally suspicious of him and his sparse posting. What gives? I do not want to participate in a discussion based on a person with 4 posts, it is futile. Foolishness has posted nothing and gonzaw is spending his entire time focusing on that person. I want to know what Gonzaw is like in other games, does he tunnel like that, does he declare he is not reading the thread till he gets home only to still spend his time on futile research? These are all questions I would like to know the answers to based on people's previous games with him. Just because he has put effort in and has posted does not make him towny. I asked that question specifically to kita because I think me and him are on the same wavelength (he asked gonzaw how long it took him to do the foolishness meta post - what I assumed to be seeing how he was allocating time) and I would like him to elaborate on his thoughts. I have no attitude towards foolishness other than my dislike for his unexplained reads. It's not scummy, it's not towny, I want to know his reasonings before I take my read further. Could he be scum? Yes. Could he be town? Yes. I do not know and cannot know until he posts, so of course my attitude to him would be a net null read. Because I felt like he was dodging questions and not contributing to the conversation. For some questions his response was just, "got nothing cause I don't know this guy" and I did not feel like he cared about this game. Reading through Toad's filter it actually seems like he's making a genuine effort to figure out the game. I really like some of his posts here: + Show Spoiler +On January 25 2014 04:24 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2014 04:12 gonzaw wrote:
Toad, what do you think about Foolishness' attitude towards you and your predecessor?
I.e instantly finding Holy scummy (because of my case), but never doing anything else about it (other than fleetingly mention him a few times), to him being his 2nd scum read after Prome, to him not mentioning him nor you AT ALL after he had a 100% change of heart on Prome? No idea, I haven't read a single post from Holyflare so no idea if his accusations on my predecessor as you coined it so nicely make sense, btw also something WoS mentioned about me how I kept the reads from Holy... I didn't even know that lol I did ignore it in general as I was seeing the same thing from foolishness about Sandro and it was so extreme that I just thought it has to be an exaggeration until austin pointed out that is indeed weird. He has been on Sandro for a while, called him mafia and suddendly started calling the lynch bad and wasn't willing to vote him. Haven't put too much thought into it. I had to catch up, I had to reread a bunch and as stupid as this situation may be I just can't catch up, reread and at the same time put the same amount of time into reading yet other filters as you guys are doing right now. I have to make this work somehow and I start out with what's #1 on my priority list. Just saying because you still don't seem to understand the situation I'm in. Yes a bunch of stuff I'm going to say will be less in detail than stuff you do and I don't have the time to do proper research like you guys. That's to be expected and there's nothing I can do about that. Yes I'm slightly angry about the fact that you've basicly called me out about not reading carefully enough... Yeah I'm explaining it from the Sandro <-> Foolish perspective but it seems to be the same thing you're getting at? Because like I said I haven't read Holy's posts. On January 25 2014 04:36 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2014 04:23 VisceraEyes wrote:
Like, and he was last on the wagon - whether it was a minute or 10 minutes, he voted last on the wagon and was NOT the hammer vote on sandroba. the thing is, if foolishness is mafia that explains why he didn't vote Sandro despite being a very shady explanation. If Sandro and Foolish are mafia together Foolish has nothing to lose, it's either him or Sandro to get lynched, might as well just do nothing and hope that in the confusion of voteswitches Prome (assuming he's town) gets into a more favoreable position to be lynched. If Prom however is mafia as well, so saying it's Sand - Foolish - Prom, that unwillingness from Foolish to vote Sand makes no sense whatsoever. He has nothing to get out of not voting Sand except for a 1-1 trade with Sand which doesn't change a thing for him. Voting Sand however gives him the chance to get some towncred out of it and he WAS around, he could have certaintly voted Sand. It just doesn't make sense if Prom and Foolish are both mafia. Why? Because it shows a townie mindset as he is trying to make connections between possible suspects and figure out what's going on. He's eliminating possibilities to determine who is likely town based on sandroba connections. I'm not really sure why he went against that and started calling me mafia. Well, I see his reasons for doing so but to go against his earlier reasoning does seem a bit out of place considering it was at a time when the thread was giving me a bunch of heat. Toad, do you not believe in any of those posts you wrote before?
Also, did I say that HolyFlare was my top scumread? During day 1 WoS was my top town read until he and others convinced me that I was wrong, and then Promethelax was my top read (hence the case on him and voting him). After the flip and I analyzed the votes WoS was my top read (and still is).
You and I are done talking for now because you're clearly not reading my posts very thoroughly and I'm getting frustrated. And I'm not going to put the town in a worse environment.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Uhh oh gonzaw, I think he might have just put a hit on you 
I wish we had a blue role or two. All vanilla setups are so harsh.
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EPT
