EPTII Titanic Mini Mafia
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Spaghetticus
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:-/ | ||
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 The Pequod? | ||
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You were red last game. You were victorious. Can we expect any changes in your play-style now that you are presumably town? Grack in particular, you trolled through the initial stages last time, are you gonna be more helpful this game? | ||
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You said I had to be coerced back into the thread? Is that it? I was going to watch a single ep. Shit son. Sue me. I was an alt-tab away... I didn't end up watching that ep either. Something happened in the game, so my reason for passing time was no longer motivating my actions. Are you going to FOS me for not being the one person in eighteen to get this discussion off the ground? Nice work buddy. | ||
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I see no problem with the votes. What is your problem with them? If you want me to contribute thing with which I can later contradict myself, ask me a question. That's what someone that is trying to find scum would do. What would a scum do? | ||
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Corazon is a candidate for lynch day one, I'm waiting to see how he responds. I am suspicious of you, but I think that is more a product of you being in the spotlight rather than any real problems I've got with you so far. I will continue to pay attention to your responses. | ||
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I dislike Artanis's dismissal of Corazon's play as well, but I doubt Artanis and Corazon would be scum together. It would seem risky to make a connection like that. That's WIFOM, though. Please stick to sequential reasoning. Once we've caught one we can start talking about who is and isn't connected to who. #freetips | ||
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On December 10 2013 08:12 Xatalos wrote: Hmm, okay. When you say you don't "like", do you mean as in scummy or annoying? Both. It's pissing me right off. He's microing his meta rather than attempting to even look town. I don't think it's really worth discussing but... - I don't like it. - It's not helping town - It's cheap - It's essentially 'active' lurking - it clogs up the thread - I want him to stop | ||
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Pressure? yes. Policy? yes. Serious? yes. | ||
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I know you want to foster a particular meta-climate for yourself, but you should know that I will do all in my power to make you play seriously. For my sanity's sake at least quit with the obnoxious spam. I'd honestly prefer you stopped posting entirely rather than keep posting that junk. Not only are you costing your team a player, you're taking my objectivity with it. Knowing that I will not stop, your continued trolling will be considered deliberately distracting town, which is actually scummy. Cease. Please. | ||
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TBH I'm sort of just hawking the thread and responding to people ad lib. I'm not taking much out of it, I'm pretty clueless from sleep dep. I'm about to hit the hay now (at midday :/). And will reread when I wake up. Hopefully Lurkers/trolls have stopped lurking/trolling, and I can have a clear run through the thread. Weak answer I know. I'm not worried though. I don't think I'll have a problem bringing game with me when I get back. | ||
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On December 10 2013 15:53 xigxag wrote: Or I am better than you. I have the read and you have not refuted it. This post took far too long to track down. :/ Pluto is a good player. If that's not obvious to you yet then you should probably just assume that he's better because you're bad. Your reasons for finding Kush town are non-existent, he's right to point this out. That you appeal to possible authority rather than give actual reasoning also looks poorly for you. | ||
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Get in here. | ||
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On December 10 2013 19:38 raynpelikoneet wrote: Well lately i always make a case on scum on D1 so you guys can just sheep me. Wat. No. | ||
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On December 10 2013 20:07 raynpelikoneet wrote: Plutarch after doing some research you need to elaborate on this: In which game(s) do you base your observations you are talking about here? You've done research? I'll give you a free green read if you can provide a synopsis of your findings in a timely fashion. (and a red one if you can't) | ||
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Any read you get on him will be plausibly deniable. There is no way you will improve your reads by obsessing over his identity. Meta-reads are already dubious (though still useful), adding an extra layer of probability (you being correct in your read on him) renders them obsolete. It's got about the same chance of being successful as a D1 association case. I've already made adjustments on my lean for both of you based on this distraction. If you are town you won't want me getting further confused no? | ||
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On December 10 2013 21:05 Plutarch wrote: Spag who do you think is scummy? Do you have any town reads? You haven't really contributed much at all. So far I've got a town on you, and a town on HF (despite him partaking in the search for your identity, which hurt him). My two biggest reds atm are Corazon and XigXag, though I need to review their filter. I've got no profound insight yet. Generally I'm clueless for awhile until I come across true scumsign, then go balls deep. | ||
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On December 10 2013 21:18 raynpelikoneet wrote: Okay let's drop this since it's not leading into anything that can certainly be judged into a way or another (unless someone disagrees). Grackaroni and Xatalos comments on my case on purple? Spaghetticus i second Plutarch. In LXIII you were quite clearly town from your posting on D1. I don't see even a shoadow from that towninees here. What are you doing? I haven't got traction yet. In that game VE was so clearly not town it physically hurt me to see him elected. I'm still in a bit of a fugue tbh. This isn't why I've scaled back, but it also doesn't help my motives that I was NKed early that game. I've got plenty of time though, so I don't think my weak start will be an issue. | ||
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On December 10 2013 21:37 Holyflare wrote: As for spag: Lack of sleep evolved into fugue. Spag I killed you last game because we were blue sniping, the reason was that you were posting in a townie style but NOT ENOUGH content to appear too towny. If you want to change your game, now is the time to do it but don't scale back you need to go balls to the wall town play. Weak starts are always always always an issue. We don't know your alignment and your start suggests that you aren't doing anything to persuade us in the positive direction in general. All I've seen is your posts on Slam and that's pretty much it. You told us you didn't like our posts trying to find out whose smurfing, yet, you provided no alternate direction for us to garner our attention. Why was that? You say you have plenty of time but why is that? You have no content and you could be a real contender for a lynch. I was pretty town bro. But it's a non-issue, I stated that wasn't the real reason I'm performing less well. I've been looking, but nothing has come up strongly. You pressuring me won't change that. I didn't need to provide an alternate direction, there are already several trains of thought running. I wanted to shut this one down quickly so I did. I say I have plenty of time? Yes, yes I do. I don't understand the question. | ||
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On December 10 2013 22:01 Plutarch wrote: This. Also he isn't spamming or getting drunk. Like clearly nothing he has posted is scummy at all and he is contributing and all that. That is why it is paranoia. It is unjustified fear of rayn being scum right now., Then why mention it? Is his play normally the inverse of his actual alignment? I just dove his filter and other that speculating as to your identity I find him quite townish (same as HF). | ||
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On December 10 2013 14:05 JarJarDrinks wrote: Very scummy post. You're actually saying that you may sit on your vote regardless of what happens in the thread? Basically giving yourself an built-in excuse to make your vote not matter (and unable to be analyzed) if slam isn't one of the leading wagons? Have you any more thoughts on me now? | ||
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Could you give insight into why you think the following people are green: - Spaghetticus - Xatalos - Corazon - Purpletrator I'm on the list because while I know my alignment, it seems fairly unanimous that I've done little to demonstrate it. | ||
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In fact I'd say it's better this way since it puts on more pressure, where as when you talk about them in the third person you're allowing them to ignore you. | ||
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On December 11 2013 00:12 Xatalos wrote: Your scumreads are still XigXag and Corazon? Anything new? Other than thinking slam scum, and Reyn town, not really. A few more slight scum reads but nothing worth mentioning. I'm up to p.26 of my reread. | ||
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On December 11 2013 00:16 JarJarDrinks wrote: So never got an answer to this Spag. And how come when you finally came back to the thread, you totally ignore slam? Did you find his posts in that time to be usefull? Yes I did, but not by way of explanation. On December 10 2013 22:41 Spaghetticus wrote: Have you any more thoughts on me now? I explicitly stated I was going to ignore slam. He makes me furious. He's stopped spamming, but hasn't really done much. Once he's a contributing member I'll reconsider. My vote is already locked in, it's up to him now to make sure other votes don't fall the same way. So far I don't think he's doing a great job. Why do you think it more scummy that I would policy vote scummy play, than someone effortfully attempting to break the too scummy to be scum barrier? | ||
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On December 11 2013 00:34 raynpelikoneet wrote: Spaghetticus why do you want to waste your vote instead of just agreeing vigi should shoot Slam unless he starts playing the game? Don't you think this way you effectively refrain from contributing towards any lynch and therefore towards scumhunting? Do you think this is townie? Because to me you are as useless as Slam atm.. It's regrettable. How big of an issue is this though? I'm not as useless as slam. You're exaggerating. The fact that I'm pressuring slam makes me more useful than slam. I never said that me parking my vote on Slam would stop me scumhunting. That I haven't turned up any results yet is coincidental. For the record I could easily bandwagon to look more townie, but I'd prefer to think for myself ty. | ||
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On December 11 2013 00:40 JarJarDrinks wrote: The scummy part is what I bolded. Saying that your vote "is not changing at all regardless of anything that comes afterwards." is what's scummy. Like, what if nobody else is voting slam close to the deadline? Are you planning on wasting it and leaving it on him? I don't see the issue. Well... I see it, but I don't see why you see it as such a big deal. It's sort of a minor offense, considering the caliber of misdemeanor hoodie-swaggering around the thread. | ||
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On December 11 2013 00:55 Corazon wrote: Plutarch is Marv because all Marv does is tunnel me whenever we are town together. You should just disregard everything he says about me tbh HF is confirmation biased and refuses to push anyone else besides me. Play the game Don't call Artanis scum for being right. Be less bad please. How do you expect to convince anyone with this garbage? So we should take you word for it that not only are you trustworthy, you are able to discern smurfs at a glance, and you deem that this smurf is marv, and you also deem that Marv tunnels you, that he does so unfairly, and we should therefore disregard it? How can you not see that this is too much to swallow? HF is biased because he thinks you're scummy and doesn't change his vote with the wind? Artanis can't be scum because you agree with him on something? You're either making terrible arguments because you're terrible town, or you're just bullshitting to look like you're doing something. Can someone weigh in on how good Corazon is supposed to be? If he's at all capable at mafia I want him hung. | ||
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On December 11 2013 00:58 JarJarDrinks wrote: You keep pussyfooting around my question w/o giving me a direct answer. So I'm gonna say that this is basically you saying: YES, you plan on wasting your vote if slam isn't one of the leading wagons. Feel free to correct me if I'm misinterpreting. I don't understand how you can say that you don't see that as a big deal. Your play, you are niggling over and over on a thing that doesn't feel right to you. You are self confident in a non-scum way "lol look at him squirm" since inciting a big fight with a townie is counter productive to scum agenda and I am a big fan of your answer when I asked you why you didn't build up a case you didn't flounder you simply stated that you didn't know what was right, only what was wrong. It suggested someone who was objectively reading cases and, if they had an issue with that case, making the issue known. All in all it seems likely that you are town. If you are scum you are one of the top scum players I've ever seen. So I'm going to assume that ockham had it right and you are town. + Show Spoiler + I plagiarised the above paragraph on the offchance Slam is a lazy town. I don't want him to click the spoiler and thought it less likely if there was more volume to my post, and if it felt like something he'd read before. FFS. How am I supposed to pressure someone into playing the game if you won't leave me alone? I was posturing to get him to actually do something. Maybe he won't bother clicking the spoiler... He probably will. The vote is a non-issue. Votes don't mean anything until someone actually hangs. If you are town, you should have let me do this then jumped me D2. The amount of posturing bullshit that goes on and you decide to tunnel mine... You have my attention now, this doesn't seem to have been conducted with a townie mind-set. | ||
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On December 11 2013 01:04 Corazon wrote: Spag please read the thread and read the posts HF quotes and see if they really makes me scum or if one point makes me look bad and the rest are him misinterpreting posts to make me look scummy Do you really want me to? You know I already think you scummy. You know I'm under the gun to produce a red-read. How do you think this is going to end? | ||
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Also Cor, I'm not going to go read an entire other game on the offchance you've got mad meta-read skills and I'm able to somehow catch this. Be reasonable. Look at the path you're asking me to take: 1) read other game 2) agree with Cor with any degree of actual certainty that Pluto is Marv 3) agree that Cor's assessment of Marv tunneling him every game unjustly is correct 4) infer that Marv is sticking to his normal meta even though he is on a smurf and has no obligation to do so (and loses the advantage of using a smurf by being so predictable). 5) infer that plutos pressure on you is motivated by a meta-decision rather than an alignment one. 6) ... 7) profit? Nobody cares if it's a meta-decision. Look at the points and address the argument. He raises legitimate criticism, it seems wise to look into it. If you want to argue that's he's town that is wrong, that's fine. If you want to argue that he's scum that's wrong, fine. Just shut-up about speculative-meta-potshot-bullshit. | ||
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Let's talk about you. You have a half page filter. Ten posts in the game total. Five of these pertain to my posturing. I think it's fair to say that the bulk of your contribution is getting me to explain some meaningless D1 play. You're a more experienced player than I, what would your opinion be if someone else had done the same as you have? Would you think them red? Do you think me red? If so, have you any reason other than the possibility that I was looking to negate my vote? Do you have any other reads? | ||
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or maybe we all perceive a similar reality because there is evidence to support such a view I haven't talked to or about Xatalos since the start of the game (if at all). Plutarch is think my head may best be removed from my neck, and I've hardly spoken to or about HF other than that he is probably town, and that he should stop pissing around. He might want me dead too? I can't remember. It's funny the way you keep using these sensational word: "tunnel vision" and "confirmation-bias". I hate being the one to ruin irony by pointing it out, but I haven't attacked Artanis, I simply said it's stupid to think he must be town just because he agrees with you. I also haven't ganged up with anyone, if anything I've left you alone because you already have enough problems. You'd be an easy and acceptable lynch, but since it looks like you might get lynched anyway I've been focusing elsewhere. You must understand, as I'm only going to say this once more. I'm hardly reading what they say about you. I'm reading your responses. They are giving me scumchills. Stop defending yourself by slinging mud on your assailants as it's not at all relevant to my perspective and it's doing you no favours. All I see is someone who has not done any townwork who is showing no intention of doing anything but making other look more scummy than themselves despite the lack of scumsign. Calm yourself. Use reasoning. Be useful. | ||
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Meant for Cora | ||
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On December 11 2013 02:04 JarJarDrinks wrote: Did you read what I wrote? My whole point was that you could either stick w/ your stance or change it and both would look fine for you. I made you commit ahead of time so you couldn't base your decision on who the main wagons were gonna be @ the deadline. Silly question. Obviously I don't think my play is scummy. I think you look better now that you admitted that you're not gonna keep your vote locked. I've posted reads. Is there someone specific you'd like me to comment on? Really? You don't think a 10post filter scummy at this point? You don't think zeroing in on one relevant but minor detail for half of these isn't worth talking about? You've made other reads? Would you mind copy-pasting them in their entirety for dramatic effect? (it shouldn't take long) | ||
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I second Artanis' need for clarification. I'm not a fan of people leaving their reads entirely unjustified, it allows too much fluidity for scum to read the ebb and flow and tailor the lynch. If you think me scum say why, so that you can' just backflip consequence free okty | ||
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On December 11 2013 02:21 Xatalos wrote: Do you really think I'm a lynch candidate for today? Who else would you vote for if it's fruitless to vote for me? I think you mentioned purple. What do you think of this purple wagon? Isn't the post you quote specifically answering your question? | ||
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On December 11 2013 02:23 JarJarDrinks wrote: No, a 10 post filter isn't scummy at this point. People can post @ different times of the day. when I'm @ work (right now) is when I'm most available. Furthermore I think my posts all have pretty good content. It's not like I'm posting spammy one-liners. Yes, I think zeroing in a minor detail is scummy. I don't think what I was zeroing in on was minor. You obviously disagree. And if you gave me your simple answer when I asked for it, I wouldn't have mentioned it again. You can click my filter if want the reads I've already made. I... I had reasons for not giving you a simple answer, which by this point I think you should be able to appreciate. If we leave this debacle in the past where is belongs, and pretend it never happened, this basically leave you with five posts worth of content. Some of those posts are +1's. Are you really backing yourself as a contributor? Do you refuse to quote your reads because you fear it will take too long, or because your lack of content is deniable when it isn't left in the open for all to see? | ||
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On December 11 2013 02:29 Xatalos wrote: Not really. He only said that he'd stop posting about me, yet his vote remains and I'm apparently still his top scumread (for some reason). He(?) said he'd back off because he no longer thinks you a viable lynch, even though his convictions remain unchanged. Seems reasonable. | ||
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On December 11 2013 02:28 Xatalos wrote: Spag, have you catched up with the thread? What about those slight scumreads that you mentioned? By the way, this post made me think you're more likely town: It just seems counter-intuitive to bring pressure on yourself like that for no real reason. They're just single digit contenders on my spreadsheet (on a scale from -100 being mafia, and 100 being town). I adjust scores accordingly after each incident I find interesting. It's more to keep track of my perspective over time, as I often forget the small stuff. It's really not worth talking about, and I don't want scum knowing my reads unless I'm acting on them. I appreciate the town read, though think it's something I'd do as scum too. No I haven't caught up with the thread. I'm still stuck on the same page. I think it's more important to attend to the here and now, and I'm losing focus again (tis 5am). | ||
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On December 11 2013 02:40 bumatlarge wrote: Reading your fitler, I'm probably wrong. I didn't remember you posting alot early, but you did and it was better. You seem aggravated, I'd actually suggest stepping away from mafia for an hour or two and come back with a fresh mind. You sure do ask a lot of questions. That's great but it's an easy way for scum to post. Think of how easy it is to poke around new threads and post question marks. Super minor though. Your last few posts seem a little too vicious for what you are calling out. Activity is looking great this game, so let's not discuss how big our filters are, when your filter is not hard for you to generate as scum. There are much worse offenders then you, I'll try to find them. You should vote pandain though. Are you talking to me? It seems like it. Yeah I'm getting my vicious streak out this game, I'm not usually this pissed off at everything, I swear! I've been lynched as town for being too nice! I'm not voting Pandain. He's gonna opt out or get modkilled IMO. I think talking about filters is legitimate when they are this small. It's why you're hitting Pandain right? | ||
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Tell me about yourself. You seem nice. Would you consider it outside of your character to be aggressive? Who are you reading and which way? You seem to be playing passively with lots of theory. This is my natural inclination too, though I'm having it beaten out of me :/ | ||
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Well... that implies evil, which isn't necessarily correct. He is rly rather random though. | ||
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Slam is still not talking sense. It looks to me that he's scaled back the persona just enough to give him a fighting chance of wifoming his eminent demise. I wanted to find someone better to lynch and I wanted Slam to step up, but neither of these things have happened and I am not unhappy with this direction for day one. I was posturing with my pressure vote, but this doesn't rule out me actually voting him. | ||
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On December 10 2013 07:03 kushm4sta wrote: that guy is definitely not marv btw. I’m tentative about claiming I know anything about how Kush works, but this seems fairly straight forward. He is very confident of this. A while later this happens: + Show Spoiler + On December 10 2013 18:48 Holyflare wrote: is you marv, plu? To which Kush replies: On December 10 2013 18:58 kushm4sta wrote: marv not pluto isn't xatalos talking way too much to be scum? (This is why you don’t talk about smurfs and shit holyflare btw. ) On December 10 2013 20:08 kushm4sta wrote: townlist xatalos - talking a lot early game for no reason at all! Ive seen him play scum and he didn't post that much. Has this been changed by recent meta? holyflare- scum kill this dude d1 yup i haven't read everything yet ~~ can i get some consolidation please? cause i dont want to read all this complicated shit everyone is writing. ok standby for next post which will contain important shit Kush heralds in his next post. Which isn’t particularly relevant, but does confirm that his next post is a play. He wants people to pay attention, it holds motive and isn’t just random kush bs. + Show Spoiler + On December 10 2013 20:14 kushm4sta wrote: smurfread on plutarch He is definitely not marv. from pregame: marv's taste in music is not this dumb. And if it was he wouldn't advertise it. Marv would never write a sentence as useless as this last one. Plutarch is some newish player tryharding. Could be koshi. Kush is directive and salient like never before. But what does he want us to know? That this player is not marv, and people should not treat him as such? …or that he’s not actually receiving information that the rest of us aren’t? Why, out of all his contributions is he wasting this level of analysis on smurfs? Why is he breaking persona for this? This post reads to me as ‘shit, I’ve stepped out and need to quickfix’ - It implies he doesn’t have info on Plut that we don’t - It gives the impression that there is actually someone ticking away behind the façade - It distances him from Pluto by denouncing his posts as stupid - It finishes off by naming a player at random that it might be - It encourages others to waste time thinking about who the smurf might be The way Kush moves with purpose drew my attention. It seems that he knows the identity of Pluto and doesn’t want to be seen that way. Whether this is because they are in a scumQT together or because he was told outside of the game, I don’t know. Other than this, I don't have any further reads on Kush (as he is deliberately elusive), and think Pluto plays pretty townish. I do however, have a lot of respect for Plutarch's ability at this game, and think it likely he can play convincing town as either alignment. | ||
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Also, I'd like to clarify, I was never actually 'catching up'. I was rereading. I still haven't completely reread the whole thread, it didn't seem to be yielding much for the effort involved. | ||
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I'm also only FOSing you. I know that this is not strong enough to get either of you lynched, and I'm not confident enough either way to actually want you lynched. My purpose behind this post was to demonstrate that I've been thinking as a town. You're acting crazy defensive tho. | ||
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My case is that he knows who Plutarch is and was reprimanded outside the thread for it, which made him act with purpose to deny the possible interpretation that he knew who Plutarch is. A smurf would likely tell his scumbuddies who he is, say... in a scumQT? It is that he knows, and some external factor drove him to deliberately give the impression that he doesn't. | ||
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On December 11 2013 23:28 Plutarch wrote: So when Kush was trying to guess who I was and I was saying he was wrong. All that interaction was faked? See: encouraging people to think about things that are not conducive to finding town See: Filling a filter full of fluff Are you panicking? Why are you suddenly so weak? | ||
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On December 11 2013 23:30 raynpelikoneet wrote: Because you have now made about 70 posts and all you come up with is "kush is scum with Plutarch" with some terribad reasoning.. That's a reason to think me scummy, not a reason to get angry. Are you trying to start a flamewar with me? You know I've been emotional this past day, you know it'd probably be easy to do. You've also done all in your power to demean my contribution. I've not got the strongest resume here, but I'm faaaaar from the weakest. Your anger at me specifically makes me suspicious. Are you trying to steer town into lynching me? | ||
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On December 11 2013 23:32 Plutarch wrote: I'm not panicking. I'm just incredulous at how bad your case is. If you are town, don't let confirmation bias start making you see things that aren't there. If you are scum. Carry on. No. You are being weak. Confirmation bias? I didn't even want to post this! Since my post on a Pluto+Kush team you have: - Tried to tell me that scum can't possibly point out bad town reads for towncred - Told me scum can't possibly stage conversations about fluff in order to appear town and/or indirectly influence them - called the case I've explicitly stated I didn't want to post as a result of it's shortcomings me being blinded by confirmation-bias. Remember: the intention behind the post was to confirm myself town. It appears I have run across something though. | ||
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On December 11 2013 23:40 raynpelikoneet wrote: Yes i am steering the town into lynching you because you have made 70 posts that say absolutely nothing. All you have to say is someone is mafia because of some assumed connection because they tried to guess someone's identity. Every other post you have made is an OMGUS to call out people who are telling you to go scumhunt or telling you why your logic does not make sense. You are not really trying to find mafia and your attitude towards people in this game gives out you are working under fear, pressure, insecureness and inherent guilt. ##Vote: Spaghetticus Hmm... this is frustrating. Up until recently I had you green. I still think you probably green though I'm beginning to doubt myself. This attack is... too specific. I'm not the scummiest person here, your vote seems motivated by something other than lynching the scummiest player. OMGUS? Yes I have a tendency to attack people that attack me. Where better to start? To dismiss my points as OMGUS though... I haven't been illogical, and I've attacked people for legitimate reasons. | ||
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On December 11 2013 23:48 Plutarch wrote: I find this post interesting and perhaps more important in reading spag's alignment than his actual case. Generally the purpose of scum hunting is to lynch and find scum But in this post spag clearly states his motivation for scumhunting as survival. The first part Spag backtrack's from his read. Note that in order for his association case to be meaningful at all he must believe that both Kush and I are both scum or his case falls apart. Yet he is calling kush scum but only 'FoS'ing' me. (As an aside I hate the term FOS and believe it should never be used.) He says that his case is not strong enough to get us lynch nor that he actually wants us lynched. Discrediting your own cases immediately is something I associate with scum. Town wants people to follow their reads scum wants to appear active but actually achieve nothing. In that case why make the case at all? Well that is answered in the last part of the post. His 'case' was purely an exercise in 'appearing to be town'. The motive behind it is self preservation rather than finding scum. I understand that the preservation instinct appears within a town mindset also. But I felt that this post immediately following the case, which was much less crafted than it, reveals a scummy mindset. Yes it's survival. But calling it only survival is BS. I was demonstrating that I've been thinking about who is town and who isn't. Note that I didn't backtrack my read, it was the explicit intention of it. Also note that I wasn't in any real danger of being lynched D1, though I thought it best to post for days to come. The scenario is that I've been thinking along townie lines, but not demonstrating it. I've not got any strong strong reads, and haven't tried to fake any, which is typical of my playstyle (rayne I will address your aspersions shortly). I didn't go for a scummy play, which is to sew confusion. I tried to put down a read that demonstrates both that I am thinking, but also the reason I hadn't posted until now. | ||
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On December 11 2013 23:53 Plutarch wrote: I find it incredible that you are casting suspicion on two of the most clearly town people in the game. Also typical of my style. See every game in my filter ever. | ||
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On December 11 2013 23:51 Plutarch wrote: This is a good point actually. I read through that game and spag appeared to be clearly town. This game he is scummy as shit. That game (and note that I've already stated this and you didn't like that I did) I had a very strong read. Out of my five previous games I'm pretty sure last one is the only one in which I caught scumsign that early. Thinking that one datapoint a trend makes is particularly wrong in this case. I'm usually under fire for being active but not having strong reads. If you are who I think you are Plutarch, you know this (meant for Plutarch only, if it's inapplicable, ignore). | ||
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On December 12 2013 00:03 JarJarDrinks wrote: Wait, so you agree that they're "two of the most clearly town people in the game"? I agree that pluto has established his towniness well, but I'm also thrown into wifom by who I think he is. I don't think Kush is established at all, but rayne has also done a fairly good job establishing himself prior to this. Assuming we're talking about Pluto and Rayne, I agree that they are both established as town, but I don't think them strongly town (thought they were initially in my reads). | ||
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Kush is either town or way better at impression management than I give him credit for. I void any of my initial reads on Plutarch based on this, but his responses are interesting to me. | ||
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Maybe if you twist my words just a little I'll just come out and say "I'm scum" There is a difference between who I think is town and who I think others think are town. That this is what sways your vote is disappointing. Why not look at Pluto's meta-case, that's a lot more convincing. Srsly, I'd FOS you bit I'm running out of fingers. Logic plz. | ||
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He had the opportunity to annihilate me but didn't. He's actually interested in who is town or not. His vote would have been the absolute nail in the coffin. If he were scum, he'd want me lynched over the current contender (slam). This shouldn't mean anything to you yet. Write a note! | ||
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No, the thought was genuine, but I never expected it to get anyone lynched. That it generated discussion was part of my intention, but I truly did think these things. @JarJar He wasn't being pressured. By 'shit got real' I mean that something meaningful was happening. Look at his position. My case wasn't even intended to pressure, and he has the two most established town at his back. There was zero pressure, he came forward voluntarily once he saw something that he thought was important. | ||
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I have that feeling you get when you've got the active players against you, and everyone currently afk is about to walk in and lynch according to who is unpopular, rather than actually go through the process themselves. Five hours until lynch and I want people to be well informed. What are your thoughts on me? Let me defend myself~! | ||
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I'm sick of your mindless aggression. At least I go through each of my motions. | ||
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I know that not making cases as scum is bad. I learned my lesson. If I were scum, there'd be nothing stopping me from posting a case, I'd just shit one together and tunnel to my hearts content. I've been given enough material to make a case (refer to when I pointed out to Corazon that it would not go well for him if I did), but I don't have any reads that I believe enough to put my name on. It would be so easy to shit up a case, but I don't want to be the guy at the head of a mislynch. As scum I have no reason not to post cases. As town I do. | ||
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On December 12 2013 01:13 raynpelikoneet wrote: No it's pretty simple. All people wanted from you was to tell who you think is mafia. You have not done so. Instead you have made everything else that contributes nothing to the game. That's it, that's why you are mafia. I have said who I think is mafia, to the degree I think them mafia. Are you so ego-centric to think there are no people in the world less confident than you? | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On December 12 2013 00:16 Plutarch wrote: This is actually bullshit. I just went and look through your previous two town games and the quality of your posts and scum hunting were much better than in this game. [g]Town[/g] LXIII: This post was very solid and made at the start of day one. [g]Town[/g] NMM XXXIV: This post and This where both very solid and made early day one. In this game you have done nothing but appear active. Firstly, the easy dismissal: LXIII: This is the exception I’ve been claiming. This is the time that I was able to catch scumsign early, grabbed a hold, and stayed on it until I was blue sniped N1. It turned out VA was an assassin, but I don’t differentiate between the two as town. Also worth noting to all you others that are attacking me, is that VA was considered the townest town. He was elected mayor even after I tried my hardest to tear him down. Telling me that I don’t attack people that are established town is bullshit. Being confused by what I mean between who I think is town and who I think is established town is bullshit, as this game, which everyone here is referring to, is clearly evidence that such a distinction exists and that I am correct to draw it. You have no excuse if this is the reasoning for your suspicions (JarJar). Also, the post that he refers to here IMO was solid, but it was not received that way. It was ignored and people continued to find reason to hassle me until Artanis pretty much proved me town (<3). In that scenario I was also starting from behind, and needed to put myself directly into the game. This game I was here from the start and had a continual interaction. NMM XXXIV This is more damning, but the evidence is mixed, and I think eventually comes out in my favour when I show you what lead up to my lynch. Read the posts Pluto linked. I think the worst thing, other than the discrepancy in length, is this My standard play is to actually post cases day one. My play last game was non-standard because through a mixture of laziness and curiosity, I attempted to get through day one by both being active and not scum hunting. It did not work. While I expect I will continue to tinker with this element of the game, I have scaled down my experimentation for the sake of my self-esteem (and town win-rate). You already know most of my meta from XXXIII. I am highly analytical and loathe posting accusations that imply a reality I do not believe. I adhere to theory over empiricism, which gives me difficulties with the more aggressive players. I play for the long game, and think little of the chance of day one scum lynches. I try to encourage town play through indirect means. I emphasise original content, and am strongly averse to bandwagoning and recycling opinions. I try to keep a flexible understanding of the game, but am having difficulties converting flexible thinking into anything but WIFOM (hence the LAL update). As this contradicts everything I have said this game. This looks bad, awful even, until you take into account that I was then lynched this game for not scumhunting (I was cop). It appears, that just as in this game, I started by talking myself up, and then failed to meet my standard of contribution. It’s a pattern of optimism when it comes to effort. The following is worth reading if you are interested in seeing people’s perception of me some time after the post which Pluto posted. It is long, but rich in information, and important for you to read if you want to avoid a mislynch. See the parallels in the attack? They reflect my actions after that post that has been praised up as the exemplar of my town play. You don’t have to read all of it, but a browse will definitely do you good. Here is the post that killed me: + Show Spoiler + On January 08 2013 02:07 zarepath wrote: Okay, was waiting before I posted this but running out of time: Why Spag is scum: + Show Spoiler + This is broken into several pieces. First is consistent non-contributions: + Show Spoiler + First real post is a list with resources, and a plan to pursue "more standard play" which involves not being as passive. On Day 1, the majority of Spag's posts are lists (people who played last game), theory (lying town, LAL), the fact that he has null reads on people, comments on the weather, and more theory, and more theory, and even more theory. What happened to standard play with case analysis? Instead he goes off on lurkers, talks about TeMiL being a lurker, and then doesn't actually end up voting for him. Read through Spag's filter Day 1 and just look at the number of posts he made that contributed literally zero to forwarding analysis on any single individual. The only real analysis he does is to suspect-but-not-suspect Mocsta and OE, and retaliations to Mocsta for going after his soft townie claim. He condemns the countries thing (easy), too. Now look at everything since then. More theory and numbers and probabilities, talking about talking about coaches (when he's already done it himself), most of his analysis is about TeMiL and the potential possibilities depending upon who he is, which involves zero analysis because he hasn't even posted -- talk about easy prey. Asks if there was a second role block, all of the possible setups, if others have seen blue slips -- so on, et cetera. It's not that these are necessarily bad things, but these are all things that are very, very easy for mafia to do. After saying he was going to do standard play, he hasn't made any compelling cases, just theorycrafted and said "great post" to other people's analysis. His latest post isn't analysis, but the people who could be persuaded to vote for. Mafia love bieng persuaded to vote for people; they don't have to make the case. He casts suspicions without putting himself out there for it -- very carefully crafted non-suspicions that are still suspicions: + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2013 03:53 Spaghetticus wrote: @OmniEulogy I get a scum read off you... but... I am not going to pursue you if I can help it. Your process is so alien to me I can't really fathom your motives. I would like other people to apply scrutiny while I look elsewhere. I just can't see you as not scum, but this was true in XXXIII and you flipped town. Please people, before you attribute a scumbuddy relationship here... ... ... ... this is too high profile and obvious. My contribution will be substantial elsewhere, I genuinely feel my objectivity is compromised entirely when dealing with Omni. This is town motivated and too bold a risk for too little a reward to be a scum ploy. I have reasonable town motive, I don't want this post to haunt me. On January 03 2013 23:01 Spaghetticus wrote: You have also been leaping on irrelevant details (from my perspective), inflating them beyond their importance. Soft claiming 'not scum' is far too crass a move for my style and you know it. I can see that you are doing everything you can to promote town activity, and I believe this is within what is reasonable to expect from you, so I won't call scum read on this. I would like to point out however, that picking on small and probably* meaningless discrepancies is a great scum tactic for promoting confusion, and so would suggest you lay off the UberHolmsing On January 05 2013 03:12 Spaghetticus wrote: That being said, I approve of your suspicion of Mocsta's final words before bed. I have scrutinised this action and it comes off as RL problems, but I could be biased. Is there any more that you wish to add to concerning Mocsta's scummy behaviour? It does remind me a lot of your scummy tunneling in XXXIII. Mocsta may seem untouchable now but anything you can force from him when he does make a slip such as now could be vital later on. Note that anything someone ELSE could do to find Mocsta scummy would be great -- because Spag just might be biased. On January 05 2013 03:12 Spaghetticus wrote: Just so you know, I have a note in my word pad about your efforts to preserve lurkers. To Corazon -- again, no real analysis, just a cast suspicion. Maybe fairly innocent here, but what is the town motive for this post? On January 05 2013 12:31 Spaghetticus wrote: @Mocsta I actually did not promise to make a case against Omni, I distinctly stated that while I feel he is scummy, I do not want to be the one making the case, as I have massive bias. I have been directing attention to him as nobody seems to be picking up on his loose play. In the absence of a case, I will likely make one, but I am busy and have other people I would like to pursue. If Corazon feels up to the task, this would be optimal from my perspective. Note that he explicitly asks Corazon to take up the case, a now-confirmed townie. If he can get Corazon to push the OE town flip and take the blame, two birds, right? Especially upon being called out for the soft town claim on the QT thing, he was very defensive, which only seems odd in comparison to the lack of rigor in his analysis in the rest of the thread. What is consistent is his emotions, which is much easier for mafia to do than actual analysis: + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2013 11:52 Spaghetticus wrote: In regard to your 'soft buddy claim' on me, this is shocking. I honestly feel helpless in regard to this. I'm sorry to wash my hands of you in such a way On January 03 2013 23:01 Spaghetticus wrote: You have also been leaping on irrelevant details (from my perspective), inflating them beyond their importance. Soft claiming 'not scum' is far too crass a move for my style and you know it. I can see that you are doing everything you can to promote town activity, and I believe this is within what is reasonable to expect from you, so I won't call scum read on this. I would like to point out however, that picking on small and probably* meaningless discrepancies is a great scum tactic for promoting confusion, and so would suggest you lay off the UberHolmsing His first defense to the soft town slip; very defensive, and tries to undermine the town's most contributing member in the process, and make it about his own reads instead of everyone else's reads on him. Note that between this and his comments on OE, he makes a big deal about his own non-reads -- the people he suspects but doesn't currently think are mafia. On January 04 2013 00:45 Spaghetticus wrote: With respect, you are not listening. I just don't like that tone -- I don't think it benefits town. Not a lot by itself. On January 08 2013 00:35 Spaghetticus wrote: I've never use the phrase before. I was trying it out. Faaaark. A better response would probably be "Just a slip of words." Really? NEVER used the phrase "closing out a game?" On January 06 2013 09:28 Spaghetticus wrote: @Mocsta Omni's post you quoted was ridiculous, and made me epic mad. The fact that you decided to support it makes me both confused and furious. ...WTF? On January 07 2013 21:06 Spaghetticus wrote: Is this sarcasm? You are allowing the imagination to go almost anywhere with your provocative comments. I know what an NK is, or do you think Omni's insight superior? Treating an NK as anything but what I called it Would be absolutely fracking retarded. It does not take a scum to know that this is how an NK works, it doesn't even take a particularly well informed town. How do YOU think we should think about NK's? Am I wrong? Do you think it beyond my intelligence to infer this much with both my penchant for theory crafting and the abundance of guides laying around? You don't even know whether I use coaches or not and you assume that I don't know what an NK is? This is like the umpteenth time you have either uncharitably appraised my motive or been incongruous in your understanding of my thoughts. This is the first time it's sounded like you might want to make a case. Your thoughts on me are required anyway, as either you me or Syl die tonight. On January 07 2013 22:48 Spaghetticus wrote: F5ed to find yet another arrogant response. Wanna know why I think you are overconfident? BECAUSE ITS NOT A QUOTE FROM ME. LOOK AT THE FRICKING AUTHOR. You are playing fast and lose, and you're making some big mistakes. I know that if I talked to a coach, he'd tell me I need to play less conservative with my reads, but you are batshitcrazyliberal with yours and I think this sort of play will end with a loss for town. All of the above just seem way too over the top to produce any kind of positive town discussion. He has also consistently asked for information or operated mistakenly based on what he assumed was information in the OP, which again a townie might do if they're ignorant,, but he makes a big case out of not being ignorant. These strike me more as efforts to discuss fringe details that wouldn't be worth teh discussion if he actually wanted to know the answer and just read the OP: + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2013 09:48 Spaghetticus wrote: Wait what? am I reading the OP correctly? is a tie a no-lynch? I swear I second checked it to make sure it was plurality? On January 06 2013 09:04 Spaghetticus wrote: Shit I thought we had more time. On January 05 2013 00:28 Spaghetticus wrote: Ew. I didn't realise how little time we had. I don't like Mocsta's absence, as it both deprives us of a valued player and Really? They tell you every single mod post how close we are to the next deadline, and I think it was you who asked for everybody's time zones, and it was you who called for everyone's testimonies before the end of the night. How could you possibly miss that deadline? On January 03 2013 13:25 Spaghetticus wrote: @Corazon or Zare Do scum get access to their private thread immediately or do they have a period of non-communication. I have seen a scum chat before but this detail eludes me. Are scum able to communicate right now? The first soft town claim. Still very suspect even though discussion about it has been dropped. On January 04 2013 19:59 Spaghetticus wrote: Is the following question allowed? Do not respond until I have an answer from mod. Jampi. You claim to have talked to a coach that was not quick to respond. Tell me when you posted and when the response came. For someone so concerned with all of this readily available information, he doesn't go to much effort to actually find out -- he just wants the credit of contribution without contributing. He's also said a lot of things that simply aren't good logic. I can see this in a townie for sure, but here it just means that his only contributions are simply bad contributions. + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2013 10:31 Spaghetticus wrote: Basically, unless we have very bold scum, I believe there was at most one scum voting for StiX. Wow, that carries a lot of assumptions that a genuine townie probably wouldn't want to make. If only it were that easy. On January 06 2013 20:25 Spaghetticus wrote: I remember reading in some guide that reductive lists and town reads are counterproductive on Day 1 -- by far it's better to make proactive analysis cases, which Spag hasn't produced at all. All of his "reads" have been reactionary and off the hip. This is more of that assumption-led logic that he had above.I think everyone should make a reductive list of who they won't be pursuing day two. I won't be pursuing:- On January 05 2013 13:00 Spaghetticus wrote: The honeypot is a ploy where a town seduces a scum into revealing himself by making an obvious minor blunder. If someone tries to come in and inflate the minor mistake into a major one when this is outside your read on them, then you have likely found reason to suspect them. A mafia wants to put emphasis on irrelevant or clumsily executed arguments, rather than ones that actually contribute to catching them. If this style sounds familiar, that is because I claimed this exact ploy earlier when explaining my 'slip'. My honeypot was more improvisation than anything, as I actually wanted to know about the mafia QT, but it was a honeypot none the less. Why did no analysis come out of this honeypot, and he was extremely defensive for it at the time? Sounds like a band-aid for an earlier mistake while also spending tons of thread space on THEORY. On Day 2. On January 07 2013 20:07 Spaghetticus wrote: @Mocsta. I change who I pressure a lot, I do not change my vote a lot. So far I have voted TeMiL, and switched to StriX in day one, and voted for TeMiL in day two, though this could change as well if he'd show up and defend himself. Ummm, he switched OFF of TeMiL day 1, condemned Corazon for wanting to lynch TeMiL on day 2, and then talked about how it would be best for us to leave him be. Now Day 2 he wants to lynch TeMiL again. There is no rhyme or reason, but tons and tons of theory talk. Here are all of Spag's soft town claims that, together, just seem too convenient: On January 06 2013 09:17 Spaghetticus wrote: My will loses a lot of credibility due to me not posting it before the deadline. This is damn unfortunate. No duh! If you were town you would make darn sure it was posted before the deadline. If you were mafia there's not as much pressure. On January 03 2013 13:25 Spaghetticus wrote: @Corazon or Zare Do scum get access to their private thread immediately or do they have a period of non-communication. I have seen a scum chat before but this detail eludes me. Are scum able to communicate right now? Covered earlier. If this detail eludes him, he would either read the OP -- and if he were really after the answer, he'd put the question in green for the mod (which he does later to a different soft-claim question, but not this one). On January 04 2013 00:20 Spaghetticus wrote: I have never been scum, and I’ve always assumed they had immediate and direct communication . In between this game, and last, however, I came across some information that implied that scum were alone to begin with, and got the QT come night. He never answered my question as to what that info was, or where. He's explaiend multiple different reasons for his soft-claim at this point -- this weird honeypot idea which he didn't take advantage of at all if he used it, he was simply lazy in the moment, he came across a mysterious piece of info that led him to believe otherwise, and yet he still wasn't sure enough to know but not curious enough to find out but still curious enough to ask the thread but not curious enough to ask the mods directly. On January 06 2013 09:11 Spaghetticus wrote: GG well played Corazon. Thank Christ you managed to post a will on time, as I thought I still had 10-15 minutes, and Mocsta was a no show. This is a little bit like praising the medic. Oh, phew! So glad you got that out! On January 04 2013 19:59 Spaghetticus wrote: Is the following question allowed? Do not respond until I have an answer from mod. Jampi. You claim to have talked to a coach that was not quick to respond. Tell me when you posted and when the response came. Implicit here is the idea that he also has communicated with a townie coach, and can verify whether or not Jampi had access to one or not or is lying. Also here is him conveniently not reading the OP (whereas elsewhere he is incredibly defensive about the idea that he wouldn't read the OP or Mafia guides) so he can take credit for a move forward in analysis that doesn't actually exist, or is even legal. A for effort and all that. On January 07 2013 21:06 Spaghetticus wrote: Your thoughts on me are required anyway, as either you me or Syl die tonight. Of course he'll die, because he's contributed so much and is a townie and the mafia would love to take him out! what luck that he survived! /spoiler] The final piece here is an analysis of his voting: + Show Spoiler + He made such a big deal about LAL all day, but flung his vote to StriX when Mocstra and myself suddenly went for OE, essentially assuring that StriX would be lynched when it was possible that there'd be a bandwagon lynch of OE. Day 2, who is he talking about again? TeMiL. It seems to me that the only person he wants to talk about is the person who's contributed the least, but the person he actually votes for will be done without clear, building analysis. Now I discounted Spag because I thought he responded well to that first slip, but now that I look back on it, I was mostly impressed by his rigorous defense (read: length of defense) and his general thread presence. But after looking at his actual thread presence, I'm convinced that it is not helping town at all, and persuaded that all of the factors that I've outlined above lead to a clear read of Spag as mafia. I will be busy for most of the rest of the day but will try to check in on this thread as much as possible, but from here on out I am pushing Spag hard. ##Vote: Spaghetticus | ||
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On December 12 2013 01:36 Corazon wrote: Spag. No. You've been a dick to me in the same reason. Why are you telling him to look for alternate explanations for something when you blatantly told me I was scum for my responses to questions that you said you weren't going to read? It's really hypocritical. It's not the same reason at all, and I didn't call you scum, I called you scummy, there is a big difference. If I'd called you scum I would have come for you. I poked around you because you were overly defensive. Instead of thinking up reasons for why others were mafia, you smeared shit everywhere, which is not a townie thing to do. I've since begun to think I was too hard on you as I get a feel for your mind-set. My interaction with Rayne was nothing like that. He attacked me first, it was a defense. He questioned my competency in a field in which I know myself to me competent. His reasons for thinking so were illogical, I let him know, dickishly. Also, you're claiming a hard time etcetc, but we have no way of verifying this, and you have no idea whether I am also having a hard time. I'm going for empathy here, because I think you're starting to get a victim mentality. There is at least one person in this game that knows I've had a rough week, I don't expect them to step forward though. Rather, consider the fact that this is the first time I've been aggressive to people in a mafia game without first being attacked by them? I've been a cight runt, but I thought being anything else would come across deceptive. I'm sorry for any harm caused. | ||
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I wasn't trying to show how well I played, I was trying to show that I went after an established town. Why would you think I'd choose this time to brag? Odd... Corazon I never actually went after you. I also no longer think you red. Stop grudging and get your mind in the game. Nobody's really attacked you in awhile, and I have expressed my intention to stop altogether in the absence of any more upsets. Get informed, get in the game. | ||
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Slam has given nothing, so it's better to NK since they don't give as much info. Lynching me at least will give plenty of info given that I've been the crux of a lot of conversation. Srsly, it looks like you're wasting time. | ||
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/bed. | ||
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