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Dirkzor
Denmark1944 Posts
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Shit I don't even know what to write... Been so looong. Oats seem either weird, confused or scummy. Not sure which yet. On October 02 2013 13:16 Oatsmaster wrote: Stifling discussion is top scum play for calling someone scummy when they are being agressive and shit. Holyflare is the right lynch!. The first sentence still doesnt make sense to me after reading it 5 times (Hungover so might be my fault). it also baffles me that he seems so sure about who to lynch so early. There are other examples: On October 02 2013 14:01 Oatsmaster wrote: All those words. That dont mean anything. I meant saying that someone is stifling discussion is what scum always like to do. Everyone else thinks that you are scummy. Therefore I cant do anything more to convince people at this point of time. COME ON HOLYFLARE. STOP POSTING LONG POSTS. NOT GOOD. You and BH are probably not on the same scumteam but I have a way more sure read on you than on BH. BH, is Holyflare a noob or not? This whole posts is nonsense aswell. But through all this I somewhat still think he is town... hmm... HF's rambling about meta and being weak is rubbish. Him jumping the rng wagon, as pointed out by Risen, without any good reason is rubbish. After this, despite that BH think he have been posting better, he havent really done anything. He has sheeping BH and using BH arguments to push oats. ##Vote Holyflare | ||
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On October 02 2013 18:48 Holyflare wrote: The first line of your post says that we should move on and find scum but you haven't really contributed anything in accordance to that. Why not? Are you just happy to sit back and follow the herd? Is this for me? Who am I following? (Besides leaning on Risens observations about your rng vote) I'm pretty sure voting you is inside the box labeled "Finding scum" right now. Marv why is it bad for me to vote HF as my opener? | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On October 02 2013 12:52 Holyflare wrote: Do you even read what is posted? On October 02 2013 14:05 Holyflare wrote: Stop posting long posts??? It's called analysis of a player. The fact that even after I've posted that you aren't asking me anything, aren't trying to discover whether I am in fact town or not and aren't trying to decipher other peoples motives is just rubbing me the wrong way. It's easy to jump on a player because he played the noob card but there are 2 scum in this game not just one. If i were to be lynched and did indeed flip town then wouldn't you regret not pressuring other people on why they think i'm a sure fire scum? When I read through his filter it feels clinicly clean. Don't know how to describe it really... it like trying to get rotten wood look fresh on the surface. | ||
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On October 02 2013 19:13 Clarity_nl wrote: Would still like your thoughts on oats, marv. And i would like your thought on me instead of "Oh i'll take that ##Vote" | ||
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On October 02 2013 19:22 Clarity_nl wrote: I could quote marvs posts if you'd like but they're right there. #Sheeple You spend 4 paragraphs on a null read yet your scumread is hardly explained. Saying HF has done nothing means you haven't read the thread carefully enough. Reading him as most likely to be scum is bleh. Thank you. Ok. So I went back to find evidence that HF have been sheeping BH. Not much was found... Only little thing was this (and it's not really worth noting in the sheeping department): On October 02 2013 13:56 Holyflare wrote: -snip- Not to mention; If you think (you said you KNEW) a person was scum, your orientation as a townsman should be to prove to your allies that the person is in fact scum. If you do not interact with the person at all how can you garner anymore information than the one post you base your entire 'analysis' on? The fact that you say everyone else agrees with you in this thread is just testament to the fact that you have put no effort or thought into your stance and are just going with the flow to follow up for an 'easy' lynch. On October 02 2013 13:47 Blazinghand wrote: The answer seems obvious to me. Your goal is to establish the alignment of the guy you have a scumread on. Sure, you think he's scum, but you don't KNOW. So you talk with him. You talk with other players and try to convince them. Maybe they support you, maybe they point out how he's scummier or townier than you thought. In these interactions, most people betray what alignment they are through how they think-- be they town or scum. The goal is to develop a co-operative discourse in which people all have solid reads on each other. It involves an acknowledgement that part of what writing a case and voting is, is pressure-- it's developing your read. When you lie, I will call you a liar. Quote me instead of putting words in my mouth. Other then that HF have been more original then I said he had been. Hmm.. That clashes with my previous belief. After re reading I'm also leaning more scum on oats. But I'm not sure it is entirely because of re-reading or just because I now think HF looks less scum. The problem with oats is that he have done some wierd shit as I pointed out earlier. But the feel I get when reading his filter is of someone who cares... | ||
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Since I don't have much to work with so early on it is mostly how I feel. That probably sounds weird but thats how my head works. And don't hold the ellipses agaisnt me. I assure you that it is random. I used to do it a lot but I'm trying to stop when there is no particular need. I am not very good at that yet. | ||
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On October 02 2013 21:03 marvellosity wrote: I mean seriously, if you're going to vote for someone like that, you should probably check that what you're saying about them is actually true, don't you think? Or is the truth not important when attached to a vote? Truth is important. I was wrong I admit that. But I don't always go back and re-read just to be sure right before posting. I read the thread and was I got from it was that HF had sheeped BH so i wrote that. That turned out to be wrong after more careful scrutiny. Worse then that it puts me back as for as reads go. I don't understand why he is an easy place to put my vote. It would have been so much easier just to vote rayn if I wanted to do that. | ||
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If I'm scum I wouldn't draw that much attention to myself. Meh... | ||
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On October 02 2013 22:44 Clarity_nl wrote: Man... Could you explain your townread on oats better? You seemed to go "despite this list of things I just mentioned I still think he's town because reasons", namely that he cares... Could you point out some examples? Sure. It's they way he write. The usage of caps and the frustration in his posts when BH think he is scummy. As I wrote earlier it's a feel thing.. On October 02 2013 22:44 Oatsmaster wrote: ##unvote Explain? You seemed so sure earlier... | ||
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On October 02 2013 22:49 marvellosity wrote: You wouldn't know you were drawing attention to yourself until someone picked up on it though. Let's move on a little. What do you make of my push on you? Does it feel warranted and townie-motivated? If not, why not? I like your push. Your questions and pokes have some reason behind them. It also helps me explain myself better. I felt maybe clarity made the obligated questioning of your vote and reason and then just jumped the "wagon"... But I'm really sure what to do with that. And I would argue that making a vote with your first post will always draw attention. Especially when there is so little to work with... | ||
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On October 02 2013 22:56 Oatsmaster wrote: I read/detunneled. ##vote Dirkzor also sheeping marv is cool. That's not really a reason though... What made you change your mind? How do you see him different than before? What made you "detunnel"? | ||
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On October 02 2013 23:09 Clarity_nl wrote: If that were the case I'd have about 5 scumreads That means you already have 3 town reads... Interesting... | ||
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On October 03 2013 09:58 slOosh wrote: There's nothing too compelling in the case on Clarity. There's a potentially good point in how clarity retracted his townread of me, but given clarity's explanation and the fact that he actually draws attention to it is a plus for him. He threw out his big case, and then just sits on it. There's no trying to convince people he is right, or even bring some attention to it, then he goes into sulking mode (immune to lynch? really?) without either trying to boil down his case into succinct points, or moving on to other stuff cause maybe he is wrong and it is a good time to regroup. Seems like pretense of contribution to me. Your current evaluation of Risen? Also clarity, I can see you angling for my lynch or something. Anything you want to ask me directly? On October 03 2013 12:18 slOosh wrote: Booorinngg The following quotes contain wiffle-waffle: Agree / Disagree? On October 03 2013 12:20 slOosh wrote: I feel good about this one. ##Vote: Clarity_nl Wat? Explain how you went from "Nothing to compelling" to then add some wiffle-waffle and suddenly you feel good about it? | ||
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On October 03 2013 03:11 raynpelikoneet wrote: I am trying to find out myself if i believe his "feel reads" are legit or if he is scum. Dirkzor if you base your early day 1 reads on feels, why did you say somthing completely different in your post where you voted for HF? If it's a gut read why frame it to something else? I don't believe I framed it to be anything other then a feel read. I wrote how I felt about him. Him posting rubbish and following BH. After re-reading to stand up for my belief I got another feeling because there really wasn't any evidence.. And people have been noticing how I made 2 quotes of Oats and then voted HF with only a few lines attached. That was because BH said oats was scummy and I wanted to weigh in on that. The post ended up going another way though. | ||
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On October 03 2013 05:14 raynpelikoneet wrote: I am trying to understand what's going on with BH and Oats, but it's really hard. Everything else has been said pretty much so no need to repeat it. On October 03 2013 05:21 raynpelikoneet wrote: Yeah i get that marv. I agree what's been said about Sloosh/Dirk/HZ. I have now read the BH/Oats interaction for 2 times and i still don't know what to make out of it. Guess i know after one more time. From what he have done so far is thinking real long and hard about BH/oats interaction without ever coming to a conclusion. He don't want to comment on anything else in the game because "it have been said" and "i agree". What? Are you 100% in agreement? You don't have anything to add to any case or any resservations about any case or reaction thereof? This is the worst: On October 03 2013 05:18 raynpelikoneet wrote: No there isn't. You use many words and your posts are for some reason hard to understand to me, so i need to read them over and over again. I am going to go through the interaction with you and Oats again to see what i think about it. BH is in the thread and want to talk about something that rayn have pondering. Instead of asking BH questions about the things he slides of and does nothing... Rayn looks like a good lynch actually. But I would still like to hear from Sloosh too. | ||
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On October 03 2013 16:06 Clarity_nl wrote: This is an outright lie. Your case says he has not contributed at all and sheeping. When pressured you come up with a variation of "his posts feel constructed" Why did you switch from reasons to "feel"? It's because your original reason got debunked by marv and you were forced to backtrack. After that you kind of retract your read on HF, but instead of saying that you immediately go back to your old faithful "well, oats could be scum or town". The same thing you You emphasize here that your HF read is now gone. After all that you go "welp, I guess I have no reads." tl;dr *Makes a case based on fiction *Backtracks when called out and says it's a feel read *THEN he retracts the read entirely because his reasons didn't hold up, DESPITE it being a feel read *Claims he has never "framed it as anything but a feel read" *Has not given analysis on anyone other than Oats or HF. Everyone else has basically been ignored, with the exception of a sentence or two. You're entire case revolves around me changes my opinion... I don't see that as a problem to be honest. my tl:dr version: *makes a case based on first read through and the feeling i got* *when called out re-read to find evidence, explain and convince* *doesn't find evidence* *Can see reasons for being wrong by people the calling him out* *changes his veiw based on this* I never said I had no read. Neither have I stated that I now think HF is town. Some of the things that I thought was scummy about him have just changed and thus I didn't have a clear read I could target. | ||
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On October 03 2013 16:25 Blazinghand wrote: brb ocelot barbery 9 hours Seriously I need to know this. I didn't know what ocelots where so I googled. Its a leopard. Barbery on a leopard? What the fuck am I missing? | ||
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I know my vote is on him. So? | ||
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There are something about him. He posts the way I would If I was scum. Openly and making cases without really following through with anything. Like this post Link. It is a good constructed post and actually have some good points, but where is the punch at the end. What is he trying to do beside having thread presence? So, yeah it is still somewhat feel based... | ||
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Maybe it only looks weird to me since I know my alignment is town, but it looks preemptive if I was lynched. Anyone agree? | ||
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On October 03 2013 19:46 Oatsmaster wrote: Dirkzor, how do you 180 after reading the same filter twice? I didn't 180. (read thread. The post you quoted earlier was me saying there is still something about him i find a bit scummy) I didn't read the same filter twice. I read the thread and put my thought in a post. Then after being pushed by marv and clarity went back and compared BH's and HF's filters to see where HF had sheeped BH like i felt he had. Thats when I saw that it wasn't so. | ||
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##Vote Sloosh | ||
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I never did a 180. I still think some of his post are more for show then for real scumhunting (like the post I linked that you quoted). What changed was my belief of him being unoriginal and sheeping BH. The 2nd post you are quoting are during the process of comparing.. | ||
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On October 03 2013 20:53 marvellosity wrote: I presume this is in reply to Oats' post. What comparing are you talking about exactly? Still at work don't know If i'll get through the entire thread so I'll post as I go along. I make my initial post in HF. Then marv post: + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2013 18:55 marvellosity wrote: Ok now I read it. He provides two quotes as contextual evidence for his non-read on Oats, and none with his scumread on Holyflare. Seems like my vote is quite good. I see the truth that I really didn't give it any context or quotes so I go back to find it. That means I have to dig in his filter and compare that to BH to find where he was sheeping. While doing that marv post: + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2013 19:01 marvellosity wrote: HF has tried harder than most other people in the game and at the very least has been active and the centre of attention. He felt quite town reading through to me. A vote on him feels pretty opportunistic coming in to the thread when you did. Especially with the line "and he hasn't really done anything" - that's a bit rich. As an answer to that I make the 2nd post oats quoted. This: (which I btw still think is correct to some extend as I wrote later on with his big post with no punch or vote attached) + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2013 19:10 Dirkzor wrote: Yes he have been posting, but when I read it I don't really see any meat. Might just be me but that's how I see it. Some of his posts seems to be just for the sake of posting. + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2013 12:52 Holyflare wrote: Do you even read what is posted? On October 02 2013 14:05 Holyflare wrote: Stop posting long posts??? It's called analysis of a player. The fact that even after I've posted that you aren't asking me anything, aren't trying to discover whether I am in fact town or not and aren't trying to decipher other peoples motives is just rubbing me the wrong way. It's easy to jump on a player because he played the noob card but there are 2 scum in this game not just one. If i were to be lynched and did indeed flip town then wouldn't you regret not pressuring other people on why they think i'm a sure fire scum? When I read through his filter it feels clinicly clean. Don't know how to describe it really... it like trying to get rotten wood look fresh on the surface. Thats what I mean about the 2nd post was while I was comparing. On October 03 2013 20:55 Oatsmaster wrote: Dirkzor, ok the point isnt that you 180ed, the point is that you backed off of your read and found actually a lot of evidence for HF to be town, but very little for him to be scum. Which begs the question, why did you even have a scumread on him in the first place? If the point isnt that I did an 180, why do you keep bringing it up as the reason I'm scummy? I think I've explained why I found in scummy in the first place. + Show Spoiler + On October 03 2013 19:42 Oatsmaster wrote: Nope that 180 for Dirkzor still the scummiest thing in the thread. On October 03 2013 19:46 Oatsmaster wrote: Dirkzor, how do you 180 after reading the same filter twice? | ||
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@marv: Because his filter does feel clean. Some parts of it still does. It is not something where I can say "Look here what he wrote. Thats stupid. He is scum." It's more the general direction of his filter or how he makes me feel when reading. And I feel like he is trying to portray something that isn't I pointed out here again: On October 03 2013 17:06 Dirkzor wrote: I don't think he is a good lynch if that's what you are asking... There are something about him. He posts the way I would If I was scum. Openly and making cases without really following through with anything. Like this post Link. It is a good constructed post and actually have some good points, but where is the punch at the end. What is he trying to do beside having thread presence? So, yeah it is still somewhat feel based... Thats what it is... | ||
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At first glance HF big post is just that. Big. He talks about 5 people. Oats: who he was voting for, but now find him less scummy for reason I really didn't understand. Oats pulling the case on me back can be a good move for both scum and town. Then there is me and Risen. Both of whom are scummy but not lynch worthy. Sloosh and Rayn however are is top lynch choices. Other then that he really just recaps what have been happening during day 1. | ||
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On October 03 2013 23:07 marvellosity wrote: This post appears to be missing a conclusion. Yeah it does... Was in a hurry :D The point was that the post was big when it wasn't supposed to be. Why not write why he think sloosh is scummy and vote him. Maybe add tidbits of other things he think is worth noticing. Instead he makes recaps and adds bits about 5 people he finds scummy. Thats a bit much. Maybe I have it stuck in my head now to read everything he writes as if he was scum but it just seems like a posting style that scum prefer because it makes them seem productive. | ||
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There is nothing in your post that make me believe you are more town now then before the post. I'm interested in your beef with HF, because somehow I think it is a reach. | ||
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You get called out for inactivity and not producing. Of course you claim this is not alignment indicative but then you start producing like a maniac. First of after spending some 24 hours in the RNG BH thing your conclusion is rather weak. You then proceed to jump on a minor (imo) thing about HF. On October 03 2013 23:18 raynpelikoneet wrote: Yes. + the fact that his reasons for voting for Oats in the first place do not add up. He voted for Oats because of rng, then started finding reasons for Oats being scum. The reasons are bad and do not make Oats scum. + the fact that "hey this is how we find D1 lynch" is bullshit. + the fact that when i questioned him, he was trying to paint the discussion stupid "because why discuss Oats" when i am cleraly not discussing Oats. Of those 3 bullets I only really think number 1 is worth noting. | ||
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On October 03 2013 21:00 raynpelikoneet wrote: Dirkzor: Horrible opening post. Horrible follow up. Then he says he wants to lynch me or Sloosh, i don't see any reasons from him. When the thread sentiment turns into "Sloosh looks bad" (Clarity voting for him etc.), THEN he places his vote on Sloosh. Best lynch. ##Vote: Dirkzor On October 04 2013 00:27 raynpelikoneet wrote: So hey guys. I gotta go in appoximately 1,5 hours and i can't be sure if i am back before the deadline so could we just decide the lynch to some extent so i can be a part of it? Holyflare: For what i said. Dirkzor: To me it seems like he is really wishy-washy about everything everytime he posts. Only when he is "pushed into some direction" he makes some conclusions. I dunno which is worse? How come you changed your opinion on me between your listpost and now? Why doesn't your "recap" post of the scummynes of me and Holy not include your initial points regarding me? I think I'm with BH that you are throwing shit and seeing what sticks. I didn't on Holy so you go back to me without really explaining, but now with new points as to why. | ||
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On October 04 2013 00:50 marvellosity wrote: I don't think rayn is a good lynch today. While I don't like his absence for the first part of the day, or the way he kinda floated around the thread while he was here, his push on Holyflare feels like a town-rayn thing. I don't know how to explain that very well, but basically he hammered away at Holyflare continuously before he came to his conclusion. I rather feel that if he were mafia, he'd have jumped to the conclusion much quicker without all the questioning. I'm not totally sure by all of this, but i think it's enough that i don't want to touch rayn today. If not him then who? and why? (I know where your vote is, but answer anyway) | ||
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On October 04 2013 00:53 raynpelikoneet wrote: Waht i say in my listpost and that post is 100% the same. Dispite the fact that they aren't you are also wrong. It's clear here Link and here link why I regard you and sloosh scummy. I changed my mind about the HF thing and maybe thats why you are calling me wishy-washy. Other then that I don't see it. So please point where?! Regarding the timestamp on my vote on Sloosh. I don't see that as anything that can point to my alignment. I was waiting for him to answer and he never did. I was leaving for work. I left my vote so he would respond when he could (which he haven't yet btw). | ||
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1) I can understand this, but I've explained what happened pretty thoroughly by now. 2) Doesn't mean anything. 3) I dont get it. You both made big posts. I view them differently even though they both make the same mistake because of gamehistory. Could you explain this further? | ||
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I see the post quoted by BH as even more scum indicative then not. He wants you to post something so the whole thread is about clarity. same goes with this post right after his vote on clarity: On October 03 2013 13:30 slOosh wrote: I think it would be good if you distill it down to like, 2 or 3 quotes and explain how it is indicative of him being scum. That way it forces clarity to respond to the heart of the points and clears stuff up so other people can more easily lend their opinions. But I can't really move forward before I hear him respond. | ||
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On October 04 2013 01:24 raynpelikoneet wrote: (1) Yeah and i am not sure if i buy it, atm i don't. (2) Yes it does. You say me and Sloosh are scummy. Then when other people go for Sloosh, you go too. (3) Yes, you call out HF for his post. No mention of me. When i ask you about the differences of them, you suddenly go for "oh, you are scummy too". That's fucking fishy. That's what you have been doing the whole game. 3) You asked me how I felt about HF big post - I answered. Then you asked me about your post in comparison - I answered. How is that scummy? | ||
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On October 04 2013 01:37 raynpelikoneet wrote: Dirkzor: So you just do what pther people tell you to do? Nothing else?.....srsly? Erhm.. no? (seriously what other answer did you expect?) I'm at work and I don't know how long my breaks are going to be. So I can't fiddle around with several filters and compare shit. Today have been rather slow which means I had lots of time at the computer. But I didn't know that at the time of writting. | ||
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Its a shame Sloosh havent come back yet. If this rayn case doesn't rock my world I have to leave my vote on him without getting any answers =( | ||
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Part 1: Sloosh not having an opinion If we start by disregarding any rayn interaction for now (ill come to that) he have done some scummy things. The whole Clarity still reeks to me. When he comes back some 14 hours later and no one is voting clarity with him he explained it with this: On October 04 2013 06:46 slOosh wrote: I've already said in my initial post. You spend a couple of posts, solely stating "I don't know how I feel about BH. I don't want to lynch him though. But I don't know how I feel.", and showed no interest in actually pursuing that. Plus you shut down a possible rayn - BH interaction by answering on behalf of BH. You did have some overlap with marv, but I took that to be too small a sample size. Given another 20+ pages, as well as some resilience to prodding, I don't feel as strong about the initial feelings. That is a weak reason to vote someone imo and an even weaker reason to de-vote. He discarded Risens case on Clarity (and even gave clarity some town points) but this small thing about how he answered Rayn about BH was enough to make him scum? At this point Clarity and Marv was already doing their "saying the same" quite a bit. On October 04 2013 06:48 slOosh wrote: Plus I was contemplating a Clarity BH scum team. It made sense to me at the time. I can't see how this have ever made sense to anyone. He is making reads without making reads - scumtrait. "I used to think A (never posted it though), but now I don't" to appear like he was contributing. On October 04 2013 07:52 Clarity_nl wrote: sloosh has no reads but when people call people scum he agrees so easily. Clarity wrote it better then I ever could. Evidence: + Show Spoiler + On October 04 2013 07:12 slOosh wrote: Yea. I'll back that up. Thinks I'm town, does little to actually prevent my wagon and doesn't actually offer up anything that would make him consider me town. Pretending to care about something that doesn't matter. ##Unvote: Clarity_nl ##Vote: Blazinghand Here he is talking about marv being scum since BH called him scum. On October 04 2013 07:50 slOosh wrote: BH's logic is sound. Having a no-lynch isn't of too much consequence, and if scum marv did gain enough traction to hit BH, then he would still have me in the back pocket to push a lynch onto. He says in his filter than he respects my play, but is content with letting me die, despite having very hazy reads on Dirk and Risen. There still isn't any proper case on me, despite "he was maybe right about dirk before anyone else", and "his read on clarity wasn't that good". Sloosh think it's weird about BH town read on him: On October 04 2013 07:53 slOosh wrote: Am I agreeing to invalid reasons? I still find it strange that BH finds me town somehow, but he claimed doctor. Does that nullify my reasoning? But him having a town read on me is not? His "last post": On October 04 2013 08:25 slOosh wrote: So here's my problem marv. You say you respect my play. From your filter I glean that you have very iffy reads on Risen and Dirkzor. I also glean that your scum read of me is not substantially strong, mainly based on what I haven't done rather than what I have done. And yet you are content to let me sail is disconcerting. But objectively thinking that's me just being upset for being, what I feel like, as unfairly lynched. Maybe I did play really poorly. Ok. That's that. Umm ... Risen is #1 pick for having 0 followup on the clarity case. Additionally he finds rayn suspicious of finding him town, which is strange as if he was town that should be the norm. You don't actively look people with town reads on you and then do a PBPA on them. Still don't see what the problem with Dirkzor is. I think he made an honest mistake with what he perceived as a contradiction in my view of Risen's case and my vote on Clarity. Oats I probably feel moderate to strong town. We've played a bunch of games back to back so maybe that's where I'm getting it from. He is surprisingly consistent and even predictable, and his playstyle looks like that this game. Rayn I don't know too much since the majority of his posts were in the 21~40 range, which I was only able to skim. Prior to that he was pretty lackluster. Lack of activity isn't alarming (I recall he has like a 12 hr job or something), but what he did with that time "I don't know what BH is doing" and then the lack of followup on him was lame. Holyflare I felt like a meticulous person, very structured in his posts (My brain says this is what Oats initially voted him for, cause Oats doesn't like wordiness), so I relate with Holyflare. I would still take care not to let him blindside everyone b/c he is a newbie or whatever. Koshi did that during Sicilian I thinks. This leaves the trio of Marv BH and clarity. If BH didn't claim doctor I probably would still go after him. I don't like marv, but only because I'm sulky. Clarity as I have explained, you had intertwining earlier, and as i have said, I didn't feel like that was a large enough sample size. Scum can intertwine with town. But they usually won't over large portions of time, which is what pg 20~40 showed me. Yup that's it. Umm ... I'm sort of ok with dying right now ... I've made peace with it. In anycase, here's my vote of confidence fwiw after my flip. ##Unvote: Blazinghand ##Vote: Risen So this post is about 40 mins after he agreed with BH about Marv. Now he just doesn't like Marv because "sulky". What? What happened to BH logic that you so easily followed just before? His top reads are Risen and somewhat marv. He think I made a mistake goind after him for the clarity thing just like I made a mistake with the Hf thing. How many mistake do I have to make before he find me scummy? He keeps defending me. He also find Risen scummy because he goes after a person with a townread on him. I did the same with Sloosh but that isn't mentioned. Lets go back a bit and see who he was thinking about earlier: On October 04 2013 06:57 slOosh wrote: Ok so I'm approaching this game from a Foolishness-esque townie elimination approach. Cause why not right? There's only 8 players to evaluate, and picking out townies can somewhat be easier than finding scum. Right now there is a very lazy wagon on me, mostly from what I can tell, a lack of good alternatives. Scum would be ok with this. They want it to eventually land on me, but in the meantime they want to make a pretense of contribution (but not too much lest the wagon actually shifts). So I'm working with a pool of rayn and BH ... ehhh .... Rayn and BH. Where is the connection? There isn't one. After the lynch he has a very overly surprised reaction to the scumflip. All in all he have been flip flopping around targets. Never settling on anyone. He sheeped Marv to BH, BH to Marv, His only original thought was on Risen (somewhat) who making a case on Rayn. Part 2: Sloosh openly avoiding Rayn and vice verca On October 04 2013 07:16 slOosh wrote: I'm looking into rayn right now so we can talk about that soon after I finish. In the meantime, could you explain how you have a strong town (not null) read on me? He never posted anything about Rayn. He never even mention rayn again before his last post (see below) and close to lynchtime. On October 04 2013 07:56 slOosh wrote: Clarity, summarize the case on me and why I'm a substantially, or even remotely better lynch than Risen or Dirkzor (or whoever). Why me and Risen? Rayn had way more traction in the thread then either me or Risen at this point. Even Marv had more traction with BH shouting. It would have been natural to write rayn but he did not. On October 04 2013 08:25 slOosh wrote: -snip- Rayn I don't know too much since the majority of his posts were in the 21~40 range, which I was only able to skim. Prior to that he was pretty lackluster. Lack of activity isn't alarming (I recall he has like a 12 hr job or something), but what he did with that time "I don't know what BH is doing" and then the lack of followup on him was lame. -snip- Clarity as I have explained, you had intertwining earlier, and as i have said, I didn't feel like that was a large enough sample size. Scum can intertwine with town. But they usually won't over large portions of time, which is what pg 20~40 showed me. -snip- What?! You weren't able to get a read on Rayn because you skimmed page 21~40, but you got a strong enough town read on Clarity in those same pages that it made up for your earlier scum read? He was clearly deliberately trying to be vague about Rayn while trying to defend his scumbuddy. On October 03 2013 21:00 raynpelikoneet wrote: -snip- Sloosh: Scummy. I don't understand his townread on Dirk. Says he will get to Risen & HF when he has time. Never follows that up. Then votes for Clarity with his -- apparenly -- scumread Risen. Dirkzor: Horrible opening post. Horrible follow up. Then he says he wants to lynch me or Sloosh, i don't see any reasons from him. When the thread sentiment turns into "Sloosh looks bad" (Clarity voting for him etc.), THEN he places his vote on Sloosh. Best lynch. ##Vote: Dirkzor Rayn with his list post. He got me as number 1 target and Sloosh as number 2. The 2 reads clashes because of me voting Sloosh. + Show Spoiler [Marvs take on this] + On October 04 2013 05:56 marvellosity wrote: Alright, I read the 2nd half of the case. The thing that is not valid: Risen says that rayn is willing to vote his townread (Risen himself). This is pretty clearly not true given the posts quoted The thing that is valid: that rayn seems to be not bothered by his top scumread voting his 2nd scumread. This one's more interesting. Actually I partly caught Cephiro (ok he was already caught) in Noir because he produced two scumreads and didn't mention that one attacked the other. It wasn't on day 1 though. Arguably Dirkzor is my 2nd "scumread" even though I'm not sure he actually is though. Actually in the end I don't have that much of a problem on day 1 with that sort of thing, because it means maybe you're wrong on something. You can't make votes based on rankings of scumminess, because what that is is connections between unflipped players when it comes down to it. I would reiterate that slOosh being scummy but not scummiest for both rayn and BH earlier in the day kinda made me feel good about that lynch. For the "hedging bets" kinda reasons On October 04 2013 05:58 marvellosity wrote: One other thing - the case (or what I read of it) makes it sound like Risen thinks that slOosh is rayn's scumbuddy. Which necessarily would mean that Clarity is town, and yet Risen said that his feelings on Clarity remained the same. And yet partly at least the case on rayn almost seems to rest on slOosh being mafia? Risen says that rayn is doing anything not to vote slOosh. Surely this only makes sense if slOosh is mafia, surely therefore it makes sense to lynch slOosh (given they would both be mafia) to prove that part of the case. Yes? I'm not going to run through how he never talked about sloosh at all even though he was the 2. scummiest according to his list. Risen did that here: link I'll just say that he made a shit case on HF which fell apart. He made a shitty case on me. Nothing on Sloosh. No further comment why people should or shouldn't vote him or why Rayn thought he was scum or not. I know I said I wouldn't but this is for emphasis: On October 04 2013 01:53 raynpelikoneet wrote: Okay so, i need to decide my vote now. I prefer Dirkzor. Clarity you are bad or scum. I guess my other options are Risen and Sloosh? If i should switch marv tell me now who to switch on. I trust you the most. I don't wanna lynch Risen, i don't wanna lynch Sloosh either.. because they have not been here, and i can't tell what they are gonna say when they come back (if they do). I don't accept Oats or marv as lynch. On October 04 2013 02:00 raynpelikoneet wrote: Well i do not think Sloosh is necessarily mafia. I do not think Risen is mafia. I think Dirkzor is mafia. I hope i am gonna be back before the deadline. cya fuckers! About endgame I would just say it makes perfect sense for Rayn to end with a vote on Sloosh and vice versa. These were to two up for lynch at the end. Of course they are going to lynch eachother. If one of them cause a No lynch we would have caught it and lynched them the next day. With both of them already in the spot it would have been an uphill battle to not get lynched. Preemptive ##vote Sloosh. | ||
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On October 04 2013 20:21 marvellosity wrote: i think lynching sloosh/dirk/(me) should win the game. Fine by me. | ||
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On October 04 2013 22:37 marvellosity wrote: You never watched heavyweight boxing? They kinda lumber around for a couple of rounds then someone gets knocked out kinda randomly. It's not very exciting. I laughed. Btw I want some credit aswell. I caught on to the clarity thing from sloosh first. And I did the heavy lifting after D1 ended. | ||
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On October 04 2013 23:24 marvellosity wrote: What makes you feel so strongly, boss? It's sloosh therefor it can't be Risen. Quite simple. | ||
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Instead you should read my case on Sloosh. Say you agree and we lynch sloosh. | ||
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Right now: Lynch sloosh. Later: Doesn't matter. We won. Look. Sloosh isn't really trying. He is just waiting for us town to shit eachother over until we decide to vote someone else. Just stop and lynch Sloosh. (but if I had to choose, its sloosh, oats then Marv.) | ||
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Sloosh your "case" leaves much to be desired. You kinda scoot over everyone. If you really think I'm the last scum make a real case. Just on me. Not everyone. I'm sure you'll see that I ain't that bad. I'll look into Oats since I'm not really sure about him. Just because Sloosh looks like the clear target we have to keep this going just in case. Oats what did you mean by this: On October 05 2013 00:35 Oatsmaster wrote: I really wanna know why Sloosh isnt in that list that Risen posted the day before. | ||
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On October 05 2013 20:32 Oatsmaster wrote: No givey-upey lol. Dirkzor, I was talking about the fact that Risen seems to think sloosh is town. Where? | ||
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Second, doesn't really answer my question. Oats: Where did Risen say he think Sloosh is town? (Or scum for that matter) | ||
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Maybe I wanted him to answer and not you. So that he can't write "what clarity wrote". Why Risen? | ||
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Why do you want to lynch Risen, oats? | ||
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Also Oats just parroted the thread feeling about who was scum. First the 3 not on rayn lynch. Then Sloosh maybe. Then Sloosh. Risen is town. Then Sloosh and Risen is scum (with sloosh ahead), Then Marv is scum and he want to lynch him over sloosh because "hur hur". Day 2 he vote sloosh. He have just been trying to push in any which way the thread was going. | ||
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1) People can be aware of there meta and play accordingly. 2) Outside factors can affect meta 3) I don't know anyone's meta :D | ||
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On October 06 2013 18:36 Holyflare wrote: Yeh lynch the guy who made a tunnel case and voted his scum partner when he could've just lynched sloosh.. That's logical. Haha. Yeah. I don't get how you can call Risen scum, Oats. The more you do it the more I want to lynch you after sloosh. At some point before lynch D3 (if we get so far) I'll look into to your D1 action and interactions. Can't really be bothered right now. Sloosh, other then my bad entrance to the thread what have I really done to be scum? | ||
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In that order? why? | ||
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On October 06 2013 21:32 Oatsmaster wrote: Oh so you rather get lynched instead? Also to everyone else, This is such a townie post man. The first part. Wat I don't understand this at all. Who are you talking about wanting to be lynched? Me..? Or yourself? Which part was townie? Or was that sarcastic? | ||
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Lest all start over and make real cases instead of just shouting at eachother. Marv don't roll over and die. We still got 1 more lynch before lylo so we're still good. Oats can you explain why Marv isn't a between your candidates? | ||
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And marv wouldn't you also call it a town move to keep our options open... | ||
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I would think people being 100% sure of anything is more scum. I only know my own alignment, not yours. It isn't unclear who is my biggest scumread atm. | ||
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On October 04 2013 01:53 raynpelikoneet wrote: Okay so, i need to decide my vote now. I prefer Dirkzor. Clarity you are bad or scum. I guess my other options are Risen and Sloosh? If i should switch marv tell me now who to switch on. I trust you the most. I don't wanna lynch Risen, i don't wanna lynch Sloosh either.. because they have not been here, and i can't tell what they are gonna say when they come back (if they do). I don't accept Oats or marv as lynch. Just throwing thoughts out here now. I am trying to re-read D1 when I came upon this post from our Scum Rayn. If I made a post like that as scum I would almost always include my scumbuddy. Either as a sure townread or a potential lynch target. We know Sloosh was town. If I add my own reads I get the conclusion that Oats is that last scum... I've had a pretty good town read on marv most of the game and don't believe Risen made his case on Rayn as scumbuddy. That leaves Oats. At this point in the game Oats hadn't really done anything (imo) to warrent such a strong no-lynch comment which makes it stand out to me. This is just my thoughts loudly when I saw it... (maybe because I already think oats is scum I make things fit... anyway) | ||
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On October 04 2013 01:17 raynpelikoneet wrote: BH, i can tell Oats' alignment at last on N2. If i die on N1 grill him hard. This is a fact. Also this post just a short while before the one I quoted in my previous post... | ||
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On October 04 2013 01:55 Risen wrote: The bolded part is something you should never call someone out on unless you're using it as part of a case and you're voting that person. Discouraging people from posting is not something town players should do. Defence of Rayn by Risen? | ||
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I'm going to establish a timeline. Start from this post: link At this point the vote count is: + Show Spoiler [Slightly edited votecount from BH] + On October 04 2013 08:49 Blazinghand wrote: we are going to no lynch unless we consolidate rayn 2 - risen, slosh 3 - dirk oats holy risen 3 - sloosh, clair, marv bh 1 - rayn Marv 1 - BH BH votes Rayn 1 min after (same time)Risen come in to the thread and see 3 votes on him and sloosh. Votes sloosh to save himself (would do as any alignment) Risen votes Rayn because he sees BH vote on Rayn and a possibilty to lynch his scumread. HF votes Rayn 1 min after(again same time if on phone) Risen votes for Sloosh again with reason: "No that's only two including me not enough" Risen votes Rayn again after seeing HF's vote. Rayn votes sloosh Vote count: + Show Spoiler + On October 04 2013 08:53 Blazinghand wrote: we are going to no lynch unless we consolidate rayn 3 - BH, risen, holy slosh 3 - dirk oats, rayn risen 3 - sloosh, clair, marv Clarity votes sloosh in order to consolidate. HF pushing rayn lynch "Confirmed town is on a rayn lynch, people should follow confirmed town." (stupid argument, but he pushes Rayn lynch and its stupid as either town or scum.) Sloosh votes rayn (to save himself) It's now 4-4 between Rayn and sloosh. Clarity posts: "4-4 marv you here?" Clarity votes Rayn. Rayn is lynched. Marv appears. Hf is consistent. He votes Rayn. Sticks to rayn. Pushes the rayn lynch. Not scum Risen is to consistent but his thought fits a townperson. Starts by voting sloosh (the other wagon at the time) to save himself. Would do as either alignment. See Rayn being pushed - votes Rayn. Now why do this if they are scumbuddies? He was already on town sloosh. He sees the rayn wagon is a Tandembike and votes sloosh again to consolidate. In the mean time HF is voting rayn. Risen is "Hey rayn can get killed" and votes him. The timeline fits. I can't see why he would vote back and forth as scum when he had a good reason just to vote sloosh and be done with it. Not scum Now there are 2 small things damning about Clarity. First, he votes sloosh instead of Rayn when consolidating. Not really that damning considering he was was voting Sloosh before Risen and at the time Rayn/sloosh was 3-3. Second thing was him asking after marv. Him not wanting to take responsibility for the lynch maybe? Wanting Marv to be the hammer? At this point, clarity could have stayed on sloosh hoping someone would hop from rayn to sloosh, but he didn't. He made the jump causing scum rayn to get lynched. All in all I'm fairly sure he is not scum. Only way either of these 3 are scum if it was a carefully orchestrated bus. With the hectic wagon forming and lateness of it all it just seem unlikely. Risen had the best buildup to a rayn bus with his big case, but he also had the best reasons to just vote sloosh and say it was to save himself. If rayn had flipped he would still have gotten some cred for make the case. Where was marv? No where! Marv had been super active for 2-3 hours leading up to the lynch. Just when Rayn appears marv votes Risen (with no reason what so ever, Sloosh was still in the lead and marvs biggest scumread. His Risen vote was a sheep of Sloosh (his scum read) and clarity) and marv disappear. I'm guessing to communicate and shouting at someone for being an idiot with the way they are posting as scum *hint hint*. I wasn't at the lynch. I was sleeping. But from the people left alive now only Marv and me comes out looking bad from the lynch. Me for not being there at all. Marv for choosing not to be there and his actions leading up to the end of D1. ##Vote Marv | ||
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Look marv. I've had a town read on you most of the game. After D1 lynch it came down to sloosh, oats and you (in that order for most of the time). With those 2 as town there is you left. Explain to me how Risen, HF or clarity play out the D1 lynch as scum I'm willing to listen. But you look really bad for that. | ||
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Half the time you spend screaming "I'm not scum, you are stupid" I dont know man... | ||
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On October 08 2013 18:20 marvellosity wrote: thing is, I don't see how you possibly expected to win the 1v1 with me today... it makes no sense. Thats what I mean.. No reason for me to NK oats. That leaves me fighting for your lynch (which is uphill form teh get go). | ||
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On October 08 2013 18:22 marvellosity wrote: Dirk, do me a favour and do a little thought exercise. I'm going to assume you're calling yourself town, and you have to assume I'm town. How do you think the NK changes the course of things? Example question: if you flipped town, does it make it more likely I'd get lynched d4 than in other nightkill scenarios last night? I can't see how an Oats NK is good for anyone... Whoever did it wants to lynch me. When I flip town they will probably go after Risen or Marv. Hence it could be all 4 of you. (im on the phone with soem tech support so my answers might be a little short and fast...) | ||
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On October 08 2013 18:26 marvellosity wrote: I've been Risen's clear "second" scumread behind Oats, and yet somehow the play makes enough sense coming from you that you are now his main scumread? Explain that to me Dirkzor. Do you think that the nightkill makes enough sense coming from you that Risen would override his scumread on me and vote for you? I'm not sure Risen had you pegged as his 2nd scumread. Have to look that up. I don't think the NK makes sense coming from anybody so I can't explain that to you. It makes just as little sense coming from me as it does coming from you or Risen. | ||
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On October 08 2013 18:24 marvellosity wrote: To the bold: because he has to, he made a case on him earlier in the day. He can't NOT vote for rayn. To the underline: he unvotes his "main scumread" to 'consolidate' on rayn. Does Risen seem like the consolidate-y sort to you? Answer me that seriously. Or does he just go after who he thinks is mafia? Go read his filter in Noir. He's like "fuck it, these guys are mafia and i don't give a fuck what any of you say" To the second bolded: Again, he can't NOT vote for rayn after the case he made earlier in the day. No he doesn't have to. He could have stated he was on the phone driving voting sloosh to save his ass and get out. You forget that his own ass was on the line when he first started voting. It makes more sense for him to act like did if he was town. He votes sloosh so he doesn't get lynched himself. See his scumread can be lynched, votes him. So no I don't follow you here Marv. | ||
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On October 08 2013 18:22 marvellosity wrote: Dirk, do me a favour and do a little thought exercise. I'm going to assume you're calling yourself town, and you have to assume I'm town. How do you think the NK changes the course of things? Example question: if you flipped town, does it make it more likely I'd get lynched d4 than in other nightkill scenarios last night? Btw that only works if you are town. When I flip town doesn't actually change peoples view of you, does it? If you are scum, which you are, lynching me or Risen is a good play. NK HF or clarity and lynch the other dude. Perfect. | ||
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As we already established D1, Clarity started the sloosh wagon with me. I ended it with a good, thought out case that made sense. You never did anything other then to hop along and vote. The more I think about it the more I see that you haven't really done anything this game, marv! You have 27 pages of filter and nothing really beyond pointing out stupid shit, asking questions and calling everyone insinuating you are scummy for stupid. I'm putting all eggs in one basket and saying you are scum. You even said you would roll over because of the sloosh lynch. I want you to do that. You are doing exactly what BH foretold you would. | ||
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On October 08 2013 19:16 marvellosity wrote: I don't have to convince you of shit, i'm just trying to talk about stuff with you. If you are town and you want to win you kinda need to. I'm town so you'll need my vote at some point. | ||
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I doesn't make sense that Risen want to lynch me over you because of the NK since it does not make sense coming from me, or anyone. | ||
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There are only one scum left. I think thats you. I came to that conclusion due to D1 lynch and I'm sticking to it. You either have to disprove me or prove that someone is more scummy then you. And your "Risen want Dirk more then Marv now" argument isn't enough, | ||
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On October 08 2013 20:03 Clarity_nl wrote: He said it after making two giant posts explaining things. Like I really don't care if it's cheap. It is cheap. And if you read my two post nothing they contain are really from anything after D1 lynch. | ||
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On October 08 2013 22:27 marvellosity wrote: like, say Dirk's plan is to go 1v1 with me today. he wins that and i flip. then what? We win. Or if I'm completely off and you flip town most likely I'm dead and town loose. Can't you see how insane it is for me to go 1v1 with you if I'm scum. | ||
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On October 08 2013 20:54 marvellosity wrote: ignoring more than half the game isn't a point in your favour, my love. I just focus my scumhunting on day1 becase thats the day that produced the most. Is that wrong? | ||
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On October 08 2013 23:01 marvellosity wrote: Can't you see how insane it is for me to kill off a potential mislynch who also happened to have a strong townread on me? Those arguments don't fly, sweetcheeks. The fact i'm willing to talk about these things at all should tell you something. But apparently it doesn't. Thats what I've been saying all along. I doesn't make sense for anyone to kill Oats. Whoever did it had a plan with the move. (You said so yourself) I don't want to try and read into what that move means when I don't know. So I largely disregard it and focus on other areas of the game that makes more sense. Like D1 lynch | ||
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On October 08 2013 23:02 marvellosity wrote: yes, you focus on everything. also, you don't mean "day 1" because as you yourself has said, I was very pro-town for the large majority of day 1. You are in fact taking about a 2 hour period of the 140 hours that this game has been going. And you have only focused on the 2hours prior to present this entire game. | ||
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On October 08 2013 23:08 marvellosity wrote: P.S. I made the case on you Day 1  No you didn't. You voted me because of one post and asked a lot of question. Then you found me not scum and then proceeded to hop on/off about me the rest of the day.. | ||
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On October 08 2013 23:11 marvellosity wrote: are you really so bad at mafia that you don't realise a case doesn't have to be a long consolidated post with quotes? are you genuinely that awful? Don't disregard me because our opinions doesn't match. I know a case doesn't have to contain quotes and giggles. I'm trying to point out that you have just had a lot of thread presence the entire game but not much else? | ||
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On October 08 2013 23:13 marvellosity wrote: that filter that you repeatedly stressed was pro-town before the lynch? Repeatedly?! That pulling a stretch. I said it once, maybe twice. Also we can't all be town can we? HF looks town, Clarity Looks town, Risen looks town. Call it confirmation bias. | ||
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I knew I would loose a straight up discussion with you, but that won't stop me trying. When I flip town because you will eventually convince the rest that I'm scum I'll hope they will listen. | ||
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And don't say D1 lynch with his sloosh/rayn vote switches. I've explained that I disagree and I find it a town thing to do. | ||
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On October 08 2013 23:26 Clarity_nl wrote: If you think that wasn't the first thing I did after d1 you are wrong Then you tell me what Marv did D1? I'll summrize it if you want but I'd rather you(Or HF/Risen) read and posted what marv actually did D1. Explain his fake Oats pressure. Explain his Sloosh vote sheeping thread sentiment. Explain his Risen voteswitch at the end. Explain his BH stunt. | ||
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On October 08 2013 23:27 marvellosity wrote: you didn't ONCE ask Risen why he's voting for you, or ask him to change his mind... What do you want me to do? "Oh Risen btw, could you not vote me?" I'm giving him a better alternative with you. That's my best and only defence. I can't defend against "Maybe dirk killed oats because blah blah" because it doesn't make sense anyway so there is no rational defence?! | ||
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On October 08 2013 23:29 marvellosity wrote: They would listen to you because you were so right on slOosh and Oats you mean? lololololololz by the way, I don't need to convince the rest, I could just sit back on my laurels. The only reason I'm arguing with you is because I give a fuck about solving the game. But you're either too dumb or too scum to understand this. Why do you think I'm here? And stop disregarding me because we don't agree. (and don't say you don't disregard me because of that, but because I'm terrible. Its getting old) | ||
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He puts pressure on me. I answer and he backs of. He puts pressure on Oats: Oats answer and he backs of. You and I find sloosh scummy. He votes with nothing more then "I agree". No follow up. He vote BH because "lols" (I still fairly believe he did that because he truely don't like BH btw) Back to sloosh. Then suddenly: Risen vote! Why? no one knows and noone cared at the time. | ||
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On October 08 2013 23:35 marvellosity wrote: so while i'm semi-afk for 20 minutes right at the lynch, and sloosh and rayn are vying for votes, I decide not to vote for slOosh to secure a majority? After Risen votes for slOosh, I just leave my vote on Risen instead of re-securing slOosh, and instead I let my scumbuddy die? That whole argument is trash Rayn was already in the thread at this point and BH was screaming for a rayn lynch. Maybe you didn't want to put your fingerprint on anything right then and there. | ||
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On October 08 2013 23:40 marvellosity wrote: Risen was the non-sloosh option at the time before I got distracted. that's pretty simple, and you would KNOW THIS IF YOU RE-READ THE DAY 1 LYNCH. Why didn't you want to lycnh sloosh anymore? | ||
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On October 09 2013 01:08 Holyflare wrote: You may have the traits of a towny but there is always that lingering suspicious nature about you. You were SO SURE about sloosh that when people (oats, risen, dirk etc.) were doing extra scum hunting that you thought it was funny and wouldn't participate. You effectively did not participate in an entire day because you "thought the game was solved". Here we are day 3, and the same scenario is coming down. The only reason that oats could be killed was to add further speculation about dirkzor making a desperation move, pretty simple play to make if you think about it coming from you it lets you sit back for an entire day again and not have to do anything but vote for dirkzor. This means that you don't have to do even more extra scum hunting compared to if you left oats alive. Oats was looking for scum, even through the trolling, he was pretty much the only one looking. Now, you can conveniently eliminate another day and as you've painted risen as your next target I presume he will be your choice for the day after. Everytime someone so much as mentions the word marv and scum in a sentence you flip out about how you are "the most town, and have progressed us through most of the game". Now, I'm not saying you are scum, I'm not saying you aren't. Of course I will filter dive you and see whether these feels are baseless or not. This is just a theory after all. Thank you. And btw Marv didn't progress anything. Bh did the rayn thing. I did sloosh (wrongly) - which you sheeped. At day 1 lynch marv didn't push anyone towards lynch time and he never committed much to anything. | ||
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On October 09 2013 01:33 marvellosity wrote: it's not scummy for me to say i'm town and to call other people bad though. Sort of, yes. But its also fucking annoying. | ||
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On October 05 2013 03:31 Blazinghand wrote: Well, there's two answers I can see. 1) town marv: Marv is very prideful and legitimately thinks sloosh is scum. He wants to come out of this with a big e-peen and say he didn't get mislynched. I can see this for sure. He might also just want this game to be over more quickly, but honestly it would be over for him D2 either way (town wins and sloosh burns, or marv is dead) 2) scum marv: Despite what he says, this "i'm okay with dying D3, just quote this and vote me" thing actually looks pretty townie. You know when you read marv's posts you start to think he's town, and maybe he's gonna play it up so hard people dont' want to vote him by D3. 120 hours of helpful and friendly marv who's ready to die for the town could convince people he's not a good lynch. Honestly, scum marv in this position doesn't have a lot of plays, but this one would work. On October 05 2013 03:46 Blazinghand wrote: Okay so I've gotta run now. My final opinions are this, in order of importance. : 0) Judge people based on what they did and said BEFORE Rayn got lynched. What they said after is less likely to be alignment indicative. This is really important 1) most importantly, do not lynch risen, hf, or clarity. risen and hf chose not to swap to avert a no-lynch, staying on rayn. clarity hammered rayn and averted a no-lynch. 2) lynch marv, sloosh, oats, probably in that order. consider swapping out oats for dirk. If you want to lynch sloosh first since you think he's the scummiest, that's fine, but don't let marv weasel his way out of a lynch. 3) think for yourselves and adjust to incoming information. Everyone should participate. Don't get mad at each other, don't insult each other, don't even insult Marv, whatever he does. Play nice and stick to the plan. lynch scum. gg everyone Just saying... | ||
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On October 09 2013 01:40 marvellosity wrote: like, it's so easy to call people bad when you know you're right, and it's much harder to do it for a sustained period when you know you're wrong and they're right :/ Well you voting me is a known wrong for me... so where does that leaves us? | ||
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You claim you pushed my lynch, but you never really. You made a few questions and people followed you. You then proceed to back of because of my answer. Same with oats. You then ended up sheeping to first Sloosh and then Risen. No marks left on D1. Good job scum marv. | ||
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Then he ask a lot of question. He argues with sloosh about me here: link but only after sloosh brings it up. This entire argument with sloosh he is disagreeing saying sloosh is wrong. Clarity (and here is where he does differently then marv) follows up on his vote on me with this: link. Marv's follow up on me: On October 03 2013 17:40 marvellosity wrote: then vote for one of them why is this complicated? On October 03 2013 18:27 marvellosity wrote: + Show Spoiler + Anyways. Things I like: - BH in general, his long post, what he said about rayn. Generally agree - slOosh thinking and talking about a lot of the game - Dirzkor pointing out slOosh's weird Clarity shift - my toned, athletic body Things I dislike: - Holyflare's absence after a busy start - Risen's afk from the thread after making his case, refusing to discuss it with anyone, despite the fact he was around to post in Noir obsQT last night. Terrible. - slOosh's weird stance on Clarity - rayn being a non-entity - Oats not really have his own suspicions ##unvote Thing with Dirk is. Maybe slOosh is right and he's being consistent. His answers don't feel forced. I dunno. This might be one of those occasions where I've mercilessly trapped a townie. I really just wish he'd just put his hands up and said "I fucked up" right at the start, because it looks like he wiggled about it a bit much for my liking. But meh. 1 2 3 Changing his opinion based on clarity's sentiment. First its "Sloosh looks good up until conclusion clarity" then suddenly his firsts post are weak because clarity said so. Then sloosh looks bad. Vote on oats: Link After that a few back and forth questions that doesn't prove either way: link but he still ends up unvoting. Oats grills me and put forth this argument: link Suddenly Marv is on me again(link). Again it wasn't marv you made this happen, it was oats and marv just jumps on it. In the present. Interaction with rayn: On October 03 2013 21:32 marvellosity wrote: It's not a cheap shot, it's true. You're always a possible mislynch and mafia don't have to push you because you're scummy enough that town will push you on their behalf. That's just fact. rayn, my dear. I think we both know that a decent way of reading your alignment is how you go after your targets and how confrontational and aggressive you are. Even if I take your busyness claim at face value, how do you imagine I or other people in the game go about getting a townread on you, should you be town? On October 03 2013 21:36 raynpelikoneet wrote: Yes i see that, and that's what i am trying to do. I was trying to do that with BH yesterday, but for some reason he is impossible to talk to. :D On October 03 2013 21:36 marvellosity wrote: You're stuck in the hole I'm stuck in, rayn, in that your mafia play is very accomplished. So when you don't exhibit things I expect from town-rayn, I worry. Now why didn't he vote rayn like he did Oats? Put a bit of pressure on? He just lightly say that rayn haven't played to his town-meta and then leaves. On October 03 2013 22:08 marvellosity wrote: I did, but maybe I'm being stupid and forgetting. I'll check. My apologies if so. Does marv ever respond to anyone like that? "Ups maybe I was wrong, i'll check"? Not ever. But he did towards his scummate. Also note the small things that Marv find weird/scummy but no reaction with vote like with me or oats. On October 03 2013 22:09 marvellosity wrote: Hmm. meh. I only semi-retract, still seems odd. Maybe it's just rayn-odd though. Carry on I guess? Again note his defiance towards rayn. On October 03 2013 22:23 marvellosity wrote: This game is hard. I really want to lynch mafia today :/ Dirk thing is tearing me apart because it all reads as so fucking scummy and twisty, but at the same time I "believe" what he's telling me. It's actually infuriating. Of course you believe. You know I'm town. But you still leave the door open that you could lynch me if it came up. Marv then votes sloosh. He doesn't push this lynch at all. This is marv pushing for sloosh: link. I had to ask him for his reasons and he just list them. Short after: link he posts his thought about everyone. Isn't this a perfect time to re-insert that he wants sloosh to be lynched? He doesn't even mention him. All in all Marv just cruised through day 1 (aswell as D2, well more then most). His interactions with Rayn are muted compared to any other player in the game. He puts light pressure on people and backs off. He ask a lot of question and point of stuff, but he never follow through. | ||
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On October 09 2013 21:57 Clarity_nl wrote: You should respond to stuff and strengthen or weaken your read. Or are you saying you're 100% sure marv is scum? I'm not 100%. But right now he is my best bet. As I said I'm waiting for Risen and HF | ||
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On October 09 2013 22:00 marvellosity wrote: if you're town, Dirk, I hope you never sign up to a game i play in ever again. Why so aggresive. There really is no need. | ||
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We can talk about something (or someone else) if you like. I just don't want to go back and forth about this. I presented my case you presented meta arguments for the contrary. I don't agree so where does it leaves this? You calling me stupid.. And that got old real quick yesterday | ||
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I don't think Marv is scum. I kinda did a little bit yesterday but mostly it was to see who followed me there to catch the last scum. Scum wan't to get of marv, right? So whoever sheeped me had to be scum... Yesterday didn't bother me much, but today it is kinda getting to me all that shitcalling from marv. Didn't sign up to get yelled at. Don't want to wait for Risen or HF anymore. Anyway lynch me if you like... ##Unvote ##Vote Risen | ||
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##Vote Risen | ||
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Marv looks town just in general. Only minor things that he looks scum for is his disappearence D1 lynch and the way he acted out D2. I had similar thoughts D2 so I couldn't really say either way. | ||
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On October 09 2013 22:35 marvellosity wrote: your "i want to wait for risen and HF" almost makes this seem sort of plausible. this is totally outside of my comfort level as a mafia player though. so now will you talk about Risen with me a little? You think it's possible after all that he would behave like he did around the day 1 lynch as mafia? As I jsut wrote. No, I can't see scum Risen act like that during lynch. I can follow the thought process of voting sloosh first because he was being lynched himself. Then seeing Rayn as a candidate, see to few on Rayn. back to sloosh and then to rayn when the wagon picked up steam | ||
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Assume I'm town for now. We lynch Risen. He flip town. Scum kills Clarity/Marv/HF (depending on scum). Lylo is Dirk/marv/HF or Dirk/marv/clar or Dirk/CLar/HF. Who dies? I do. If we lynch anyone else then Risen or me today. Lylo looks: Dirk/Risen and Marv/HF/Clar. Who dies? I do. If you lynch me today you most likely end up with Risen at lylo. Might be better just to lynch me now and find scum at lylo? | ||
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On October 08 2013 16:28 Dirkzor wrote: Just read Final D1. I don't think HF, Risen or Clarity is scum. I'm going to establish a timeline. Start from this post: link At this point the vote count is: + Show Spoiler [Slightly edited votecount from BH] + On October 04 2013 08:49 Blazinghand wrote: we are going to no lynch unless we consolidate rayn 2 - risen, slosh 3 - dirk oats holy risen 3 - sloosh, clair, marv bh 1 - rayn Marv 1 - BH BH votes Rayn 1 min after (same time)Risen come in to the thread and see 3 votes on him and sloosh. Votes sloosh to save himself (would do as any alignment) Risen votes Rayn because he sees BH vote on Rayn and a possibilty to lynch his scumread. HF votes Rayn 1 min after(again same time if on phone) Risen votes for Sloosh again with reason: "No that's only two including me not enough" Risen votes Rayn again after seeing HF's vote. Rayn votes sloosh Vote count: + Show Spoiler + On October 04 2013 08:53 Blazinghand wrote: we are going to no lynch unless we consolidate rayn 3 - BH, risen, holy slosh 3 - dirk oats, rayn risen 3 - sloosh, clair, marv Clarity votes sloosh in order to consolidate. HF pushing rayn lynch "Confirmed town is on a rayn lynch, people should follow confirmed town." (stupid argument, but he pushes Rayn lynch and its stupid as either town or scum.) Sloosh votes rayn (to save himself) It's now 4-4 between Rayn and sloosh. Clarity posts: "4-4 marv you here?" Clarity votes Rayn. Rayn is lynched. Marv appears. Hf is consistent. He votes Rayn. Sticks to rayn. Pushes the rayn lynch. Not scum Risen is to consistent but his thought fits a townperson. Starts by voting sloosh (the other wagon at the time) to save himself. Would do as either alignment. See Rayn being pushed - votes Rayn. Now why do this if they are scumbuddies? He was already on town sloosh. He sees the rayn wagon is a Tandembike and votes sloosh again to consolidate. In the mean time HF is voting rayn. Risen is "Hey rayn can get killed" and votes him. The timeline fits. I can't see why he would vote back and forth as scum when he had a good reason just to vote sloosh and be done with it. Not scum Now there are 2 small things damning about Clarity. First, he votes sloosh instead of Rayn when consolidating. Not really that damning considering he was was voting Sloosh before Risen and at the time Rayn/sloosh was 3-3. Second thing was him asking after marv. Him not wanting to take responsibility for the lynch maybe? Wanting Marv to be the hammer? At this point, clarity could have stayed on sloosh hoping someone would hop from rayn to sloosh, but he didn't. He made the jump causing scum rayn to get lynched. All in all I'm fairly sure he is not scum. Only way either of these 3 are scum if it was a carefully orchestrated bus. With the hectic wagon forming and lateness of it all it just seem unlikely. Risen had the best buildup to a rayn bus with his big case, but he also had the best reasons to just vote sloosh and say it was to save himself. If rayn had flipped he would still have gotten some cred for make the case. Where was marv? No where! Marv had been super active for 2-3 hours leading up to the lynch. Just when Rayn appears marv votes Risen (with no reason what so ever, Sloosh was still in the lead and marvs biggest scumread. His Risen vote was a sheep of Sloosh (his scum read) and clarity) and marv disappear. I'm guessing to communicate and shouting at someone for being an idiot with the way they are posting as scum *hint hint*. I wasn't at the lynch. I was sleeping. But from the people left alive now only Marv and me comes out looking bad from the lynch. Me for not being there at all. Marv for choosing not to be there and his actions leading up to the end of D1. ##Vote Marv | ||
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I explained the exact timeline and how I see it here: Just read Final D1. I don't think HF, Risen or Clarity is scum. I'm going to establish a timeline. Start from this post: link At this point the vote count is: + Show Spoiler [Slightly edited votecount from BH] + On October 04 2013 08:49 Blazinghand wrote: we are going to no lynch unless we consolidate rayn 2 - risen, slosh 3 - dirk oats holy risen 3 - sloosh, clair, marv bh 1 - rayn Marv 1 - BH BH votes Rayn 1 min after (same time)Risen come in to the thread and see 3 votes on him and sloosh. Votes sloosh to save himself (would do as any alignment) Risen votes Rayn because he sees BH vote on Rayn and a possibilty to lynch his scumread. HF votes Rayn 1 min after(again same time if on phone) Risen votes for Sloosh again with reason: "No that's only two including me not enough" Risen votes Rayn again after seeing HF's vote. Rayn votes sloosh Vote count: + Show Spoiler + On October 04 2013 08:53 Blazinghand wrote: we are going to no lynch unless we consolidate rayn 3 - BH, risen, holy slosh 3 - dirk oats, rayn risen 3 - sloosh, clair, marv Clarity votes sloosh in order to consolidate. HF pushing rayn lynch "Confirmed town is on a rayn lynch, people should follow confirmed town." (stupid argument, but he pushes Rayn lynch and its stupid as either town or scum.) Sloosh votes rayn (to save himself) | ||
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On October 08 2013 08:22 Risen wrote: I'm stepping away. Lynch Oats, if town, lynch marv. That is all. On October 08 2013 14:43 Risen wrote: I will not be playing with Oats again. I can only think of this move making sense coming from marv, dirk, or Clarity because it makes no sense for HF to do it. HF has been riding his town cred since day 1 and wouldn't shoot Oats here. Town would mislynch itself into a loss if he was scum and simply shot me or Clarity. He'd have to be trolling to do something like that. It's just a matter of WHY do that for him? I can't see it anywhere making sense. Marv + Show Spoiler + Why is marv alive if he's town? It's n2 and if he's town he's usually the most important/useful person in the thread, instead we have BH d1 and rayn dodge, sloosh d2 (though if we're being honest marv wasn't the only one on sloosh, but why didn't he put pressure on Clarity for last minute bus and he did on me and he didn't want to lynch Oats with me), and now what? Marv knew that Oats would get lynched today if he killed me in the night and when Oats flipped town he would be the lynch day 4. How does marv live through two lynches when he's been called out and has gone for the 1 for 1 gambit, been wrong, and not lynched his partner, and tried to troll lynch and got doctor killed (but it was totes emotion guys)? He throws a wrench into things. By killing Oats in the night he discredits me because I was wrong about Oats and sets up for the "anyone but marv" lynch today. Anyone but marv gets lynched and then he night kills me tomorrow (assuming he doesn't get me lynched today) leaving marv/3 other people who probably won't lynch him because he has TWENTY SEVEN PAGES OF POSTING IS THIS REAL? Boom, marv wins the game. I bet when he thought this up he was so smug. Marv is smug whether scum OR town, but I bet he was sitting there chuckling to himself especially hard on this one. If marv is alive at day 4 he isn't getting lynched. I will be dead and/or everyone else will just let him slither his way into "Oh I would NEVER do all this as scum, NEVER! Tehehehehe" Something that actually makes me not want to lynch marv here is that he wanted to do a 1 for 1 trade he was so sure sloosh was scum. I offered the same thing to Pandain and Pandain scoffed at it in Noir and he turned out to be scum. Clarity + Show Spoiler + Clarity was suspicious to me early on, but as soon as rayn called me town I nailed him and when Oats started trolling me I tunneled onto him. It's Oats' fault and I'm never going to play with him again, he's as bad as Mocsta and Geript. Going back to Clarity, I find it funny that he swapped back with so little time left. He pretty much guarantees a sloosh lynch day 2 with his move with things staying as is and sloosh swap to rayn to save himself. I've been catching flak for a potential bus all game, but because I don't ride marv I don't get to be super awesome. If Clarity is scum, I can see him shooting Oats over this On October 08 2013 07:37 Oatsmaster wrote: Oh man. Lol Clarity is playing a really good scumgame then. but that's a stretch. I don't see anything else in Oats filter recently that would make Clarity shoot Oats. If Clarity is scum why not ride an Oats/Dirk/marv lynch? That's three people he could have for today and tomorrow to lynch. It makes no sense for him to do this. BUT MAYBE he's afraid because people have been alerted to his last minute swap to rayn over sloosh now so he is afraid of going to day 4 as someone with a potential bus case being formed against him. It's a crazy play, but is anyone seriously considering lynching him? Before people might have considered him d4, now maybe he felt he had a better shot making people go crazy. This is actually a better reason to shoot Oats than the quoted statement. Or maybe he shot Oats because Oats was screaming that Clarity was totes town along with marv and he wanted to lynch dirk/marv and people would begin to suspect why such a strong town read for so many people was still alive? This doesn't apply to HF, in my opinion, simply because the game would have been so much easier for HF as scum to kill sloosh. Clarity's swap gets him town cred while lynching someone who was going to get lynched d2 anyways following a sloosh lynch. This seems really paranoid to me. If this were the case I'd have to accept that Clarity bussed his teammate with minutes left d1 when he wasn't a scum read for many people, then shot Oats while he was still not that high a priority for anyone because he was afraid of going into day 4 with a potential bus case developing on him. Ugh, it's twisting my brain around in circles and this feels ranty. It's such a needless risk for Clarity here. Dirk + Show Spoiler + Dirk has cases on him, he's been useless all game. He defends himself without pushing much of anything. He's the clear lynch here come day 3 with Oats gone and a town seemingly unwilling to lynch marv, so why shoot Oats? I think the same thing applying to marv here applies to Dirk. How does Dirk live through two lynches? How does he get himself to the finish line? He throws a wrench into things. He makes people think themselves out of his lynch. He rides me to a marv lynch today and then Does something fucking NUTS tomorrow to not get himself lynched. Is it possible this hail mary is his only option here? Has he essentially given up? Why not go for Oats/marv lynches is the thing holding me back. Presumably he's got my backing for both of those lynches, so why throw a wrench into it? I can only think he would throw a wrench into it because he felt the rest of town wanted to lynch him today over Oats or marv. It should be noted that I gave dirk a pass because I didn't envision a scenario in which one of Oats and marv weren't scum. That was stupid of me. Dirk might be counting on me to continue to be stupid, and I'm here to let him down. Logically, Dirk is the most likely to try something like this because desperation. Four pages of filter isn't necessarily damning assuming quality over quantity, but most of his filter is defense. Here is what bothers me most in his filter (two quotes), double spoilers ftw + Show Spoiler + On October 05 2013 00:30 Dirkzor wrote: Risen I don't know why you are complicating things. Marv played really pro-town until the BH thing which I don't think I'll ever truely understand. I don't understand why he would do it as either town or scum so I'm left with believing his claim to hate BH. Instead you should read my case on Sloosh. Say you agree and we lynch sloosh. I'm coming away from this with the feeling that Dirk knows marv is town. He doesn't say marv is a town read, but he certainly implies it HEAVILY. It's the kind of thing someone would say if they later wanted to go back on what they said earlier. What marv did was anti-town, plain and simple. Qualifying it is scummy. The second quote should have set me off earlier, but I guess that's what happens when someone trolls you. + Show Spoiler + On October 05 2013 17:14 Dirkzor wrote: ##Vote Sloosh Sloosh your "case" leaves much to be desired. You kinda scoot over everyone. If you really think I'm the last scum make a real case. Just on me. Not everyone. I'm sure you'll see that I ain't that bad. I'll look into Oats since I'm not really sure about him. Just because Sloosh looks like the clear target we have to keep this going just in case. Oats what did you mean by this: Seems fairly straightforward to me. Oats wanted to know why sloosh wasn't in my earlier list. This reads to me as Dirk trying to blend as if he is contributing without actually contributing, a clear sign of scum. Oats then goes on to go attack mode on Dirk. This lends credence to the fact that Dirk has to make a big play in order to live past day 3. But why doesn't Dirk know that everyone else will simply see through that? He does. He simply has no other option. Do nothing? Get lynched d3 or d4. Do something? Town might stumble and kill themselves off. Most logically it's Dirk. Big play, but still logical, it's Marv. Only way I see this happening is if he's afraid of bus momentum starting and wants to throw a wrench into the works play, Clarity. Jesus fuck if HF is scum and did this I just want to know why? Regardless, I am going to go to sleep. Maybe HF is in the same boat as Clarity and wanted to make town panic and scramble so people wouldn't look into him more closely in spite of people continuously saying "I'm reading HF's filter and he's coming up town" but then why is HF alive? That's the same thing I'm wondering about marv, though. Maybe he's afraid of something he posted coming to light, though, and decided to throw a wrench into the mix. I am going to read Clarity and HF's filters very closely tomorrow, but I think after thinking about this and thinking it through Dirk is the lynch. ##vote: Dirkzor Look marv already pointed this out. Was why he voted Risen earlier. But what happened from D2/N2 to day 3? Thats the best I can find. Risen was so sure Marv was scummy after Oats. Then suddenly he wasn't. He explains why it is so in his post though. Also I can see no reason for Risen to shoot Oats. He was gunning and pushing him as scum most of D2/N2. | ||
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what does that mean... was he scum? | ||
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Marv knew that Oats would get lynched today if he killed me in the night and when Oats flipped town he would be the lynch day 4. How does marv live through two lynches when he's been called out and has gone for the 1 for 1 gambit, been wrong, and not lynched his partner, and tried to troll lynch and got doctor killed (but it was totes emotion guys) Dirk has cases on him, he's been useless all game. He defends himself without pushing much of anything. He's the clear lynch here come day 3 with Oats gone and a town seemingly unwilling to lynch marv, so why shoot Oats? I think the same thing applying to marv here applies to Dirk. How does Dirk live through two lynches? How does he get himself to the finish line? Quotes from Risen's last post. Why does that stick out to me? I'm not sure if relevant. Seems to me he thinks marv is unlynchable but still uses the argument that Marv wouldn't live through 2 lynches without killing oats... | ||
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On October 09 2013 23:09 Clarity_nl wrote: I'm checking the scum qt to see if he was around after he said that Btw I never saw that post where marv stated that someone was in another topic or QT while not posting here... (rayn was it, when playing drunk D1?) where is it... I've been wonderign why I never saw it... | ||
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On October 09 2013 01:08 Holyflare wrote: You may have the traits of a towny but there is always that lingering suspicious nature about you. You were SO SURE about sloosh that when people (oats, risen, dirk etc.) were doing extra scum hunting that you thought it was funny and wouldn't participate. You effectively did not participate in an entire day because you "thought the game was solved". Here we are day 3, and the same scenario is coming down. The only reason that oats could be killed was to add further speculation about dirkzor making a desperation move, pretty simple play to make if you think about it coming from you it lets you sit back for an entire day again and not have to do anything but vote for dirkzor. This means that you don't have to do even more extra scum hunting compared to if you left oats alive. Oats was looking for scum, even through the trolling, he was pretty much the only one looking. Now, you can conveniently eliminate another day and as you've painted risen as your next target I presume he will be your choice for the day after. Everytime someone so much as mentions the word marv and scum in a sentence you flip out about how you are "the most town, and have progressed us through most of the game". Now, I'm not saying you are scum, I'm not saying you aren't. Of course I will filter dive you and see whether these feels are baseless or not. This is just a theory after all. This made me raise my eyebrows because it was exactly what I was fishing after... | ||
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On October 10 2013 00:30 Holyflare wrote: Oh also, by the way. If it was dirkzor's intention "to lay a trap" I was around then and he did not question me further about it, he just continued pushing you and used it as fuel for his case. Now I'm not one to play up traps but it's not really effective if you don't say AHA you just got played until your case fails is it? I did spot it. Why do you think I emphasized it? But your whole post was so vague that it didn't really give me much... (the bolded part) You are right I should have stuck to my guns and waited it out. But neither you or Risen was here and I won't be around at lynch time due to me sleeping. So the clock was ticking.. | ||
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If Risen is town I can see what he is doing. I'm the same in the head. Afraid to have been played. If Risen is scum it just doesn't make sense. He could just have me lynched and hope for the best at lylo. Bring forth these arguments at lylo. Why do it now? Setting the stage for lylo? | ||
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And don't shut the door completely towards marv. In my head HF is still more town looking than marv. | ||
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On October 10 2013 02:47 Holyflare wrote: Also, oats had nothing to do with me, it makes no sense coming from me. The only other person it makes sense coming from is risen because he got into an argument with him earlier that day. I don't see it making sense from Risen either (I feel I've said this so many times now - can we all just disregard the N2 kill...) | ||
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On October 10 2013 02:48 marvellosity wrote: lol. you believe what Risen is saying despite the fact most of it is literally demonstrably untrue? Like, literally verifiably FALSE? ok ##Vote: Dirkzor I was making some of the same arguments in my "trap" or whatever you want to call them. They didn't come from logic but from fear of being played. Now Risen is agreeing with me. Most likely means he is scum, where my vote is. But that gut fear is still there and Risen is hitting it just right. | ||
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On October 10 2013 02:51 marvellosity wrote: If you get lynched, why would you want HF to lynch me, given your vote is on Risen? I didn't say that now did I? | ||
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He agreed with me on marv. I had decided that meant scum. | ||
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Lynch marv or Risen. If they are both at lylo roll a dice =) | ||
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Thanks for some strange mafia. Sorry to have played a bad beginning and end. Cheers | ||
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If anyone want to give my pointers on my game I welcome it. | ||
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