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Message GMarshal if you request a ban please ^_^
Also when the game you're sitting out is over!
~GMarshal |
Requests for Newbie Student Mafia X
Requesting a 3-game ban for sicklucker for violating no-PM and out-of-game communication rules.
+ Show Spoiler +sicklucker took offense that the last scum, a newbie player, was not conceding the game. He raised his concerns with hosts, alleging bad manner on the part of the scum player for dragging out the game. This was internally deemed not to be the case, as last scum could plausibly try to play for a mistake by town. sicklucker was instructed/warned to continue to play with civility, and urged to keep his anger in check. Instead, he disregarded host instructions, and took it upon himself to PM the last scum player to try to compel him into conceding, which he did. If sicklucker’s actions had come to light before the concession effectively ended the game, he would certainly have been modkilled. Notwithstanding sicklucker's view that the other player was wasting time and being BM (not true), or that it was the vote count rather than his PMs that forced the concession (irrelevant), breaking the no-PM rules is absolutely unacceptable. Also (note: not a playstyle complaint), his hostile D5 behavior of constantly hounding the newbie about this so-called BM cannot be condoned in the context of a newbie game, where newbies should be afforded the time and opportunity to learn, and forum regulars are urged to "act appropriately to introduce [newbies] to TL Mafia." edit (addition): Furthermore, sicklucker also engaged in out-of-game communication with a coach in the game. (Incorrectly) assuming that Half the Sky was coaching scum, he told HtS whilst playing dota to "tell my mafia scumlet to concede." In doing so, he confirmed his alignment to a coach who was, in fact, coaching two other town players involved in the endgame scenario. Again, regardless of the fact that the coach very likely sees the same solution for the game as he does, it is absolutely impermissible to mention game-relevant information outside of an ongoing game that you are in.
Requesting a warning for scott31337, lynched D1 after approx 30h of inactivity and not voting
+ Show Spoiler +Scott would certainly have been modkilled if not for being lynched. The valid reason behind this is that his internet went down on Friday, with service was not restored until late Saturday, after the lynch. Hence, there is no outright ban requested.
However, we feel that he could have done more to find wifi or other access somewhere in order to update the hosts and other players on his situation. Allowing for school/work/social obligations on Friday, he still had a good part of Saturday left with which he could have done so; he admitted as much himself in obs. Either a brief update/excuse post in the game thread or a PM to request to be replaced would have sufficed. Letting himself be lynched/modkilled as mafia RB on D1 had a large impact on the game and his teammates suffered for it.
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
I would like to note that at the time it was totally possible for the last scum player to win, not even with a big mistake by town, just by being a fast talker or convincing. I would be pretty surprised if he won, but by no means was the game over.
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United Kingdom30775 Posts
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On June 04 2015 11:22 Holyflare wrote:
was sl alive in game?
Yes. He kept harping about the perceived BM of not conceding in the game thread, then contacted hosts to request intervention to end the game, and then when that was not forthcoming, he PMed the other player. He wasn't exactly polite about it, either.
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the game was over and mafia was outed to me as he cced me so no information was given. 1 seems reasonable . obv im biases do what you must
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On June 04 2015 08:06 Blazinghand wrote:
I would like to note that at the time it was totally possible for the last scum player to win, not even with a big mistake by town, just by being a fast talker or convincing. I would be pretty surprised if he won, but by no means was the game over.
no
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Im just gonna say it because bh brought it up but my pm had no impact in the game. He cocended because he had 4 votes against him not because my pm asked him 2
For people not following the game he needed two mislynches to win and everyone in the game was confirmed town but him and me. Im not saying what I did was right but it did not effect the game
The defense rests!
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Was it possible? Yes. Likely? No.
It wasn't bm for the mafia to try to stretch the day to gain a win, in fact that's their win condition if they think they are in a winnable position they should try to win. Its your job to convince the thread jot your job to convince mafia to concede.
IDC if you think its bm we play the game to play it we all agreed to follow the rules and we should do so.
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Damdred if this was you or me in a final 3 on skpye trying to lynch each other shooting the shit talking about the game do you think anyone would care? its the same thing and happens quite often id imagine in a small community
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United Kingdom30775 Posts
No we make very sure not to mention ongoing games repeatedly throughout the entire forum. Even if we are on ts or skype we still make sure to not talk about anything game related even if he's "confirmed" mafia to you. It's incredibly more worse when you are alive in the game.
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On June 04 2015 12:20 sicklucker wrote:
Im just gonna say it because bh brought it up but my pm had no impact in the game. He cocended because he had 4 votes against him not because my pm asked him 2
For people not following the game he needed two mislynches to win and everyone in the game was confirmed town but him and me. Im not saying what I did was right but it did not effect the game
The defense rests!
He had 3 votes on him and there was no sign of me unvoting you - get your facts straight...
And especially with tictock being off all game long and disfo being unsure about pretty much everything, it was possible for him to get the missplay out of town.
It was a long shot but there was a possibility.
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I'm fine with my warning.
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SL, a lot of your excuses seem to revolve around "okay fine so I broke some rules but it's no big deal because blah blah blah".
This is completely disingenuous. Rules exist for a reason. Inventing some justification does not make it somehow less bad or even somewhat okay for you to violate the rules.
Also, don't evaluate newbies based on standards of vet games. No offense to newbies, but newbies lack the experience that seasoned players have. The may not be as quick on the uptake. They do not have as much experience with endgame mylo/lylo scenarios, and thus lack the same sort of ingrained instinctual reasoning about such scenarios that a more seasoned player would have. And newbies can do very strange things sometimes, as we did indeed see a couple of times in this game. You sign up for a newbie game, this is the territory that comes with it. Recognize that newbies have training wheels on, and give them the room to learn.
On June 04 2015 12:20 sicklucker wrote:
For people not following the game he needed two mislynches to win and everyone in the game was confirmed town but him and me.
Inaccurate. Down to five players, two mislynches needed. One town confirmed by dead cop. One un-cc'd surviving mason claim, but had not claimed masons before their partner died. Three others.
And this is only if you made certain assumptions (albeit correct ones) about the setup. With the semi-open setup of the game, the newbies could have been WIFOMed into believing other setups were possible.
On June 04 2015 12:14 sicklucker wrote:
the game was over and mafia was outed to me as he cced me so no information was given.
Irrelevant. Also, newbies do weird things. What if this was not actually last scum, but some misguided tunneled newbie town thinking that they were pulling some sort of shenaniplan?
no-PM rules are indeed intended to prevent passing of info in an unsanctioned manner. But you do not have the right to decide for yourself that it is okay to send a PM because you believe you are not giving information, on the basis of what you believed was the correct solution to the game. I don't care if your solution happened to be correct; at that point in the game his alignment was in no way modconfirmed or anything of the sort.
On June 04 2015 12:20 sicklucker wrote:
Im just gonna say it because bh brought it up but my pm had no impact in the game. He cocended because he had 4 votes against him not because my pm asked him 2
As Barakos pointed out, you misrepresent the numbers.
Also, false excuses. Your hostility and harassment was cited as a contributing factor in the concession. He could have continued trying, but was fed up with your behavior.
This is not how you treat newbies.
I already mentioned this in the game thread, but SL, it is not up to you to decide the rules. It is not for you to invent some rule that states that dragging out the game is "the lowest form of BM" or such. As Damdred said, the rules are clear: play to win. If the scum player believes there is yet something they could try to do to win the game, it is within their every right to attempt it. And again, I stress that this was a newbie game. It is intended to be a learning environment for newbie scum and town alike. Endgame is a very teachable scenario. Newbie town could be fooled into making mistakes. Newbie scum may not be as quick to realize their inevitable demise. It's okay, they have coaches to help them along. It's supposed to be a learning experience. Don't assume on your own that someone is being BM.
And if you take issue with something in game, you raise it with the hosts (which you did) and then you let the hosts do their thing. That's what hosts are for. We have complete information, we can judge if there is bad behavior or BM going on. You don't have the right to pass judgement on your own, nor do you have the information needed to make that judgement.
You do not EVER take matters into your own hands, and breaking the rules is NEVER an option.
If you believed the game was won, with the state of the voting and all, you could have just left your vote and stepped away from the game. In fact, when I responded to your PM complaint, that was precisely what I suggested -- to keep your cool, and take a break. If you had just done so, this game could have been ended without all this unpleasantness.
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Sicklucker, sometime back in November when I first started in Student IV you were berating Batsnacks for being impatient/BM with all the newbies, Rasputin, Breshke, and myself after he got himself lynched and we wind up in triple mylo. I remember that quite distinctly.
So to see you turn around and do the same thing here and now is quite disappointing to say the least.
I said it before and I'll say it again - not everyone sees things the way you did. There was enough doubt being created that scum could have gotten an ML off disformation given how everywhere his reads were.
This is a newbie game and that was an opportunity for both BF and disformation to learn.
I was coaching disformation and I was concerned about his presentation going into D5 and he was concerned about getting mislynched. Granted though it was amusing how the game was going in general, but you had told me whilst playing dota the other night that I should to tell my mafia scumlet to concede.
At first I thought you were trolling me but I also wasn't going to say anything that confirmed anyone I was coaching or what I was coaching. But you also confirmed yourself to me, which you probably didn't realise. I never would have told any of my newbies, but that's besides the point. Only problem was that I thought it was a joke until I woke up and saw what you'd done to BF and that's when I realised the full extent of what was going on.
Regardless of which faction I was working with, this game would not have been for my benefit. That wasn't the point.
Who knows Boxerfred or some of these others might be your mafia teammate in a future game. Just saying.
You know well that you just can't be right as town you also have to be persuasive. You can't just kick and scream your way to the finish the way you did. And especially not in a newbie game.
I mean you told Bats he couldn't act the way he did with us newbies in our first game. So why did you think it was any more acceptable to do the same here?
Horribly disappointing. Especially from someone who has coached me before :/
I feel the ban is quite deserved.
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On June 04 2015 13:28 cakepie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2015 12:20 sicklucker wrote:
For people not following the game he needed two mislynches to win and everyone in the game was confirmed town but him and me. Inaccurate. Down to five players, two mislynches needed. One town confirmed by dead cop. One un-cc'd surviving mason claim, but had not claimed masons before their partner died. Three others. And this is only if you made certain assumptions (albeit correct ones) about the setup. With the semi-open setup of the game, the newbies could have been WIFOMed into believing other setups were possible.
Also there was discussion(between sl and disformation, iirc) about a SK in the game, who held his shots...
While this was also unlikely, SLs action would have totally ruined the game for a potential SK because mafia giving up openly in the thread also eliminates SKs chances for a surprise-victory.
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I think the SL ban should be 2 games at most not 3. We've reserved the 3 game ban for pretty major things. While PMing someone to convince them to concede is definitely out of bounds, I don't think it fits the line we've set for 3 game bans which historically has been a long history repeated offenses without improvement, completely ruining the game for others (outing your scum team, etc.), etc.
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On June 04 2015 14:32 Half the Sky wrote:
I was coaching disformation and I was concerned about his presentation going into D5 and he was concerned about getting mislynched. Granted though it was amusing how the game was going in general, but you had told me whilst playing dota the other night that I should to tell my mafia scumlet to concede.
At first I thought you were trolling me but I also wasn't going to say anything that confirmed anyone I was coaching or what I was coaching. But you also confirmed yourself to me, which you probably didn't realise. I never would have told any of my newbies, but that's besides the point. Only problem was that I thought it was a joke until I woke up and saw what you'd done to BF and that's when I realised the full extent of what was going on.
Thanks, HtS. Added to the ban request.
SL, do you see why the rules exist? Yes, you believed you had the game solved, and you were angered at the fact that a game you considered won was being dragging out. Due to your frustration, you vented, and in doing so confirmed yourself to someone who was relevant to the game. Deliberate or not, information was given to someone who should not have it.
You seem to believe that it is not a big deal to bend or break the rules as long as you're not giving away information, or not affecting the game, or what have you. The problem is, when someone is immersed as a player in the game and directly affected by in-game events, their judgement about these things is often clouded.
Rules exist precisely to mark the boundaries and prevent such things from happening due to a lapse in judgement when players get angry or upset or emotional. Because we know for a fact that people will get upset or emotional playing this game, and need to be reminded what the bounds are.
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On June 04 2015 15:12 geript wrote:
I think the SL ban should be 2 games at most not 3. We've reserved the 3 game ban for pretty major things. While PMing someone to convince them to concede is definitely out of bounds, I don't think it fits the line we've set for 3 game bans which historically has been a long history repeated offenses without improvement, completely ruining the game for others (outing your scum team, etc.), etc.
First of all I would consider this a major offense and second of all he was just warned recently (for other things though). Well deserved ban.
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On June 04 2015 16:43 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2015 15:12 geript wrote:
I think the SL ban should be 2 games at most not 3. We've reserved the 3 game ban for pretty major things. While PMing someone to convince them to concede is definitely out of bounds, I don't think it fits the line we've set for 3 game bans which historically has been a long history repeated offenses without improvement, completely ruining the game for others (outing your scum team, etc.), etc. First of all I would consider this a major offense and second of all he was just warned recently (for other things though). Well deserved ban.
If he has a warning I think the amount of games banned goes up by one?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
tbh I'm with geript, I'd tone it down a little. I don't think it was malicious, just stupid.
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EPT
