Basterd Mini Mafia

On July 02 2013 04:37 marvellosity wrote:
Day finishes in 1h 23 or so?

On July 01 2013 07:00 mkfuba07 wrote:
Oh wow. I wake up and there's over 100 more posts. Apologies in advance for the giant post. A lot has happened. Some stream of consciousness thoughts as I catch up:

Vayne entering the thread with thread analysis on D1 was as surprising for me as it appears it was for WoS XD I don't see the scumminess from Lazer's 6th post (Is it this one? "Marv, which game were you fake claiming miller?"), so could you explain it Vayne?

Oats's vote on rayn was interesting, because I didn't think of rayn's actions from that persepective. The thing is, though, rayn had thought the situation through. The way oats presents it is as though rayn simply saw marv claim miller, and accepted it as true. Then went on to buddy him. This is clearly not what happened.

s0Lstice's first post was interesting (I'm gonna end up saying "interesting" a lot. Too tired at the moment to not be repetitive). First of all, I don't see how that progression indicates Stutters as scum. I found him most suspicious for the aggression so early, not that his reasoning was flawed regarding scum and millers. It's also pretty weird that s0L says Lazer is suspicious for spending so much time thinking about the miller claim when he just gave a town read to rayn, who has apparently spent just as much time doing so. s0L did mention Vivax, who I failed to comment on earlier. The passive shit flinging is something I'd missed, but it seems legit. Why even mention marv being less active so far when he mentioned little more than an hour before that he was going to be pretty inactive for a while? The self-conscious bit I pretty much ignored, since I'm that way every time I post, but I'm keeping the first point in mind.

Vivax's first post after returning actually had a really good point in it. Not that what marv did was scummy, but that the miller claim definitely can't be taken as a town tell now. Rayn followed that post with this: "No it's not. Fakeclaiming miller 5min into the game is dumb and unnecessary as scum and if someone was dumb enough to fakeclaim after marv we had a 50% chance to right out catch them by having them post the role PM first." I'm starting to see what oats was getting at, now. Rayn seems incapable of believing marv is scum, even though it's been shown that the claim is unreliable. Like, in that quote, while admitting the possibility of a fakeclaim, he refuses to believe it could be marv lying.

Lazermonkey: My experience with Vayne is that I can't read him for shit. Well, I mean, I guess I kind of could early on in Roulette, when I found he had "scum potential, but was not necessarily scummy". I'd definitely trust WoS's analysis of Vayne's scum play, especially if Vayne doesn't contest it himself (unless they're both scum... so take that with a grain of salt).

Vivax: "I'm really curious to see which name marv will claim." Why will that actually matter at this point?

Caught up~~

Man, you guys post a lot.

So, current thoughts. Oats is acting almost exactly like he was as town in Roulette. The difference is his approach to pushing his lynch, which seems more persuasive, as opposed to commanding. I think he mentioned at the end of Roulette that he was going to work on that, and his play this game is consistent with that. He's probably my strongest townread at the moment.

Vayne hasn't actually said all that much. I appreciated his first post, then he kind of disappeared. Not much to say. Would still like to know what's so scummy about that Lazer post.

Stutters: Not entirely sure what to think. His explanation for the aggression is pretty much a null tell. He does seem to be posting more than I remember, but the content is mostly defending himself. He also says we should discuss other players, but doesn't suggest any himself. Still very "vayne from roulette"-y for me.

Vivax: I like what he's said about rayn, wasn't impressed by marv's supposed scumminess for not posting his full role PM. That assumes that town marv would have naturally posted his role PM when claiming miller, something that I don't think is a natural inclination. The fact that he went into Carnival Cruise and found evidence of rayn's previous reactions to miller claims gives him some townie points. Overall, slight town, though he's apparently thinking about marv a lot, which I find strange given that marv hasn't really been here at all.

marv: Come back to us, dear. ^^

rayn: After Vivax's marv post, I expected rayn to be less insistent on him being confirmed town. It would have been *much* easier for scum to fakeclaim miller in this situation than I thought, and I don't see how this isn't obvious from a town perspective. Add to that Vivax's case, where he points out that rayn accepts the existence of a miller at face value, and I'm pretty convinced. He's far too eager to accept the claim as truth, when it should now have little effect on the mind of a townie. My only reluctance to vote for him is his activity level, which I tend to associate with town.

##Vote: raynpelikoneet

Everyone else is gonna need a filter dive, and I'm going to have to reread the posts I read while writing this, but I feel comfortable with my The first half is just his observations vote where it is.

On July 01 2013 07:00 mkfuba07 wrote:


Oats's vote on rayn was interesting, because I didn't think of rayn's actions from that persepective. The thing is, though, rayn had thought the situation through. The way oats presents it is as though rayn simply saw marv claim miller, and accepted it as true. Then went on to buddy him. This is clearly not what happened.

*snip*

rayn: After Vivax's marv post, I expected rayn to be less insistent on him being confirmed town. It would have been *much* easier for scum to fakeclaim miller in this situation than I thought, and I don't see how this isn't obvious from a town perspective. Add to that Vivax's case, where he points out that rayn accepts the existence of a miller at face value, and I'm pretty convinced. He's far too eager to accept the claim as truth, when it should now have little effect on the mind of a townie. My only reluctance to vote for him is his activity level, which I tend to associate with town.

##Vote: raynpelikoneet

Everyone else is gonna need a filter dive, and I'm going to have to reread the posts I read while writing this, but I feel comfortable with my vote where it is.

On July 02 2013 06:20 marvellosity wrote:
I've just been staring at that quote Vivax brought up. Does seem pretty contradictory. Maybe we should lynch him if he doesn't come back to explain himself shortly.

On July 01 2013 21:45 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Now i know i have too much scumreads. Everyone fits in as scum with everyone in those people (i count out marv atm), i don't want to lynch Vivax because he does not look the worst and there is a slight possibility that he is town. We also do not work well together at least on D1.

I keep my vote on JarJar, but i challenge all of you to question WoS/JarJar/fuba, i'm pretty confident there is at least 2 scum in them.

On July 02 2013 15:45 raynpelikoneet wrote:

No i can't. I need to reread a lot before telling that. Everybody i have been looking into this game is pretty much town besides Fuba, and even him seems somewhat town.

On July 01 2013 07:00 mkfuba07 wrote:

Vivax's first post after returning actually had a really good point in it. Not that what marv did was scummy, but that the miller claim definitely can't be taken as a town tell now. Rayn followed that post with this: "No it's not. Fakeclaiming miller 5min into the game is dumb and unnecessary as scum and if someone was dumb enough to fakeclaim after marv we had a 50% chance to right out catch them by having them post the role PM first." I'm starting to see what oats was getting at, now. Rayn seems incapable of believing marv is scum, even though it's been shown that the claim is unreliable. Like, in that quote, while admitting the possibility of a fakeclaim, he refuses to believe it could be marv lying.

-snip-

Vivax: I like what he's said about rayn, wasn't impressed by marv's supposed scumminess for not posting his full role PM. That assumes that town marv would have naturally posted his role PM when claiming miller, something that I don't think is a natural inclination. The fact that he went into Carnival Cruise and found evidence of rayn's previous reactions to miller claims gives him some townie points. Overall, slight town, though he's apparently thinking about marv a lot, which I find strange given that marv hasn't really been here at all.

rayn: After Vivax's marv post, I expected rayn to be less insistent on him being confirmed town. It would have been *much* easier for scum to fakeclaim miller in this situation than I thought, and I don't see how this isn't obvious from a town perspective. Add to that Vivax's case, where he points out that rayn accepts the existence of a miller at face value, and I'm pretty convinced. He's far too eager to accept the claim as truth, when it should now have little effect on the mind of a townie. My only reluctance to vote for him is his activity level, which I tend to associate with town.

##Vote: raynpelikoneet

On July 02 2013 01:39 mkfuba07 wrote:

And it would have been easier this game because every single person in the thread posted before we realized that millers should claim their names as well. Marv could *easily* have figured that out beforehand and gone with it since he knew he had a pre-game excuse for not posting for a while. The fact that you accepted the claim as just about 100% guaranteed so quickly, and then failed to realize the rest of this is what makes you so scummy.

On July 02 2013 05:52 mkfuba07 wrote:

rofl, it's because I think stutters is scum. My problem with the lynch is that I want to lynch rayn, which apparently isn't going to happen today, or stutters, who I'm surprised so many people have a town read on. It's not a "stupid fucking argument". Of course, if you didn't play in Roulette then you might not understand what I'm talking about, but there are contradictions between how he played then and how he's playing now that point towards him being scum. Unfortunately, as those contradictions center around his responses to me, others apparently don't find that compelling.

At the moment, stutters is #1. Aside from him, gumshoe is a possibility. I really didn't like that one interaction with JJD. Town says that they'll lynch someone else if it will avoid a lynch on themselves all the time. The fact that gumshoe insinuated scumminess based on that post is really weird if he's town. It's a complete null tell, and I liked the way JJD responded to it.

I'm pretty confident laser can't be scum unless marv also is, which would mean that they had laser claim cop in response to no legit miller claim. So to vote for lazer I'd have to be convinced that marv's also scum, which I'm not atm.

Everyone else you'll get a read on before the daypost.

Because I don't remember everything everyone's said about everyone else I've ever played with? What I remember about stutters is that I rarely have many thoughts on him D1, and he doesn't really post all that much. Does he normally post cases on people and then completely ignore their responses to them? Does he normally say posts are scummy as fuck and then only provide a part of the reasoning? It's really weird to say a post is scummy as fuck but only talk about a small portion of it, have the person respond to it, ignore the response completely, and then make another case using the same exact post, but now in a way that the makes my...

On July 03 2013 04:42 mkfuba07 wrote:
So this post was a whole progression of realizations, and it's probably going to be confusing, but I hope it'll clarify everything eventually. The stuff collapsed in the quotes was my original post. The next layer is when I realized I screwed up something that could have affected my read greatly. The outer later is the conclusion I came to. And actually, look at his unwillingness to take stances up until his vote on me. It's a whole lot of just saying that one person's comments about another person aren't accurate. Again, could be scummy, but I've seen it all done as town.
It's not until his first case and vote against me that he feels reasonably scummy. He calls it scummy as fuck and then comments only on the part about him (which was either misinterpreted (scum or town) or misconstrued (scum)). He goes on to make another case the next day using the same exact post, which is really, really weird as town. If you think a post is scummy as fuck, and you have reasons to find every aspect of it scummy, why would you not write it all up the first time? It's like he realized his mistake, then tried to correct it after the fact by showing how scummy the entire thing is, when most of the points he makes are just as much useless fluff as my post about marv was. Even if the "vayn-like" confusion was truly a misunderstanding, adding in the rest of it shows he was uncomfortable with the original case. And finally, trying to ignore the ordering of posts I convinced myself was the case, he *still* hasn't actually responded to any of my posts. He apparently doesn't care about the answers to his questions, and hasn't answered any of the ones I've asked (even if my ordering was all garbled up, there was still no response). Therefore, I still think stutters is scum.


I also see that rayn's had exactly the same thoughts about marv's response to WoS's question as I did. Feeling really confident about my change of heart about him now. I had this written out in notepad, and it's actually pretty hilarious how perfectly marv's response fits into it:

==============================
Facts: marv miller claim, laser cop claim
marv and laser both town: legit
marv lying and laser cop: legit
marv miller and laser lying: Doesn't make sense
to fakeclaim cop after a legit miller claim.
both lying: legit

Laser can be scum only if marv is lying.
==============================

Narrowed it down to the what I found to be the most basic statement you could make given the four scenarios, and the end result was the bottom line. Since it's highly likely to be suicide to fakeclaim cop after a legitimate miller claim, marv shouldn't be suspicious of laser if he was, in fact, miller.

On July 02 2013 21:51 marvellosity wrote:


Given I can think of at least one example you've played with Stutters before (LIX) and I know in that game it was brought up that Stutters does this as town all the time, why are you bringing this up here?

On July 03 2013 20:35 marvellosity wrote:


Sure enough. He's the best lynch for reasons I already explained.

I'll offer that I, at least, didn't get a fake claim. It feels like if scum had been given fake claims, then I would have gotten one

On July 04 2013 12:05 mkfuba07 wrote:

So both of us stole survivor? How 'bout that.

On July 04 2013 12:01 mkfuba07 wrote:

Im ignoring the middle part of this thread because it's a great big ball of whine and Wifom. This is fascinating though.



Whats changed your opinion on role claims Fuba? The only recent confirmation has come from WOS, but if hes scum, then why would he tell us that? Are you saying hes telling the truth in some regards? Were you lying about role claims originally? Also why the fuuck would survivor, the hardest role in this game(If you dont understand this your not town), not receive a secret role as well? Did WOS piss Igrok off before this game started? Why are you defending whats clearly a retarded position that you supposedly have to hold. You should be the one complaining seeing as your in the roughest spot, instead your what? Convincing us that third party isn't hard? Dont piss in my ear and tell me it's raining scum.



[quote]The scummiest thing I've done all game is not be available. That is the case against me. I've responded to everything stutters has said, and he's conveniently failed to care about any of it. I've answered all of marv's questions, and they've been ignored or uncommented on as well. My questions towards others have been ignored. It's really frustrating that I'm suddenly more suspicious than the fakeclaiming scum because I happened to be unavailable at the time of the mass claim. I didn't act any differently this game than I would have as a vt, because when I'm town I always last until the end of the game anyway (got vigi'd once, was sad). The claim didn't seem like a big deal to me because at that point, it wasn't. I'd had more than enough time to consider it since the idea of mass claiming had been brought up. All it meant was that I was going to have to keep acting like myself, but tell scum I wouldn't bother them. I really didn't expect a scum counterclaim, but it makes sense given the situation.

And again, as I explained above, I play every game as a survivor that only wins if town wins. Survivor isn't all that much harder for me than town. I just had an extra power that I didn't end up using and would show up as german to cop checks.

On July 04 2013 13:52 mkfuba07 wrote:

How is it bullshit?

And what would make me happy about it, other than being confirmed if he flips first? It's not like town needs to win for me to win the game, I need to live. His fakeclaim has pretty much reduced my chances of winning by 50%.

Because he clearly had a fucking safe claim? My god, how can you not see that? I think he *did* have the vigi fakeclaim, but it wasn't turning out as expected, so he jumped on me.
Yes, surprisingly scum can tell the truth, especially when the truth is obvious.

Sorry for getting back so late, but it looks like a lot of you figured out my role already. I'm Hans Landa - German Survivor Jailkeeper. No jail last night, since it really didn't look like I was going to be NK'd, and after that shitstorm with marv/rayn/lazer/etc there were likely better vigi shots. If WoS is telling the truth, then it looks like scum has a roleblocker and saw him as possibly blue. If he's lying, then... he's scum.

To make up for the Vayne lynch a bit (that came way too close for me :S), I'll offer that I, at least, didn't get a fake claim. It feels like if scum had been given fake claims, then I would have gotten one, since this setup makes massclaims really likely, and it feels like it's gonna be really hard to walk that line between town and scum.