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On July 06 2013 05:55 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 05:49 Chromatically wrote:
I still think that "scumslip" could just as easily be a miswording from a townie.
"You have to remember that scum have a tracker" ==> "You have to remember that scum could have a tracker"
and the rest of his point works just as well. yeah except it was a proper slip. it COULD have been a miswording, but likelihood is that it isn't, probably. Further it wasn't the only time on day 1 he slipped something like that. Once it happens twice... well, yeah ^^
BAH NO lalalalala. I can't hear you
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Wait! No! I'm in nuclear winter! Didnt know it moved so fast! AUGH!!
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On July 06 2013 13:31 AxleGreaser wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 11:50 StiMaDDict wrote:
@Aquanim
What exactly did people see in me that made them think I was town? It's my play but even I'm not so sure XD
Only thing I can think of is when asked questions and voted Onegu at the end of Day2. In my experience. + Show Spoiler +(which is short in this game)(so dont listen to me, but do think about what I say.) It is very very hard for a person(you) to see why other people(us) see person(you) as town or scum. When most people I have played with say, " but I was townie town I did X" , then its usually true that doing or not doing X actually had very little weight in my decision/guess about what PM I thought they received. People seem to think its concrete things, like, asked questions voted this or that. (which are easily observable and changeable behaviours, hence for me often poor WIFOMY scum tells. Though they do have weight too.) IIRC voting for onegu when you did looked townie, but one possible (less likely) scum story for it ... if the scum QT had wifomed themselves into thinking he(onegu) was dead meat and they wanted to seriously pencil in the three man lylo play if it came down to Stim then they might be willing to risk something to buy Stim some townyness now. Note: I don't actually care if that is or is not a good idea for a scum, it is always possible scum are not making good plays.... Also scum often split their votes on a scumVtown lynch. As for what made you look town, if I could just tell you then you(and everyone) could just do that as scum, _unless_ it was something that is hard to do as scum.My current best guess is that if you try to write this post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=19007111when you actually have a scum PM, it will look different. It will look different in ways you will find very hard to avoid. That the game is hard like that is why it is fun and challenging. That the post would have disagreed with my personal interpretation of the events is not as important, as me believing that is you trying to work that out. + Show Spoiler +Why was you green? it was green because IMO there are players on the forum that can make that post or its equivalent as scum. For them merely making that post is not a significant town tell.
Thank you for your kind explanation and advice ^^
I'll make sure to read, understand, and keep what you wrote in mind while playing Mafia. It's a big help when a veteran player share his/her wisdom.
A side note: From what I hear, is ObviousOne like a god of TL mafia? XD
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On July 06 2013 14:19 StiMaDDict wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 13:31 AxleGreaser wrote:On July 06 2013 11:50 StiMaDDict wrote:
@Aquanim
What exactly did people see in me that made them think I was town? It's my play but even I'm not so sure XD
Only thing I can think of is when asked questions and voted Onegu at the end of Day2. In my experience. + Show Spoiler +(which is short in this game)(so dont listen to me, but do think about what I say.) It is very very hard for a person(you) to see why other people(us) see person(you) as town or scum. When most people I have played with say, " but I was townie town I did X" , then its usually true that doing or not doing X actually had very little weight in my decision/guess about what PM I thought they received. People seem to think its concrete things, like, asked questions voted this or that. (which are easily observable and changeable behaviours, hence for me often poor WIFOMY scum tells. Though they do have weight too.) IIRC voting for onegu when you did looked townie, but one possible (less likely) scum story for it ... if the scum QT had wifomed themselves into thinking he(onegu) was dead meat and they wanted to seriously pencil in the three man lylo play if it came down to Stim then they might be willing to risk something to buy Stim some townyness now. Note: I don't actually care if that is or is not a good idea for a scum, it is always possible scum are not making good plays.... Also scum often split their votes on a scumVtown lynch. As for what made you look town, if I could just tell you then you(and everyone) could just do that as scum, _unless_ it was something that is hard to do as scum.My current best guess is that if you try to write this post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=19007111when you actually have a scum PM, it will look different. It will look different in ways you will find very hard to avoid. That the game is hard like that is why it is fun and challenging. That the post would have disagreed with my personal interpretation of the events is not as important, as me believing that is you trying to work that out. + Show Spoiler +Why was you green? it was green because IMO there are players on the forum that can make that post or its equivalent as scum. For them merely making that post is not a significant town tell. Thank you for your kind explanation and advice ^^ I'll make sure to read, understand, and keep what you wrote in mind while playing Mafia. It's a big help when a veteran player share his/her wisdom. A side note: From what I hear, is ObviousOne like a god of TL mafia? XD
A god of winning all game then losing when it counts.
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I throw games as scum apparently because I think too much.
I'm pretty good at town though.
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On July 06 2013 06:27 Spicydinosaur wrote:
Also any comments/criticism on my play is welcome.
I've never actually rolled scum so I'm not sure how useful my comments will be, but there are one or two things I've thought of. I think you played a pretty good scum game - you were the only one of the scum team with a significant amount of thread presence and sway over the town after day one. There was never any one thing in your filter I could point to and say "scum did that".
I think what you might need to keep in mind is your overall attitude to the game - your reads generally made sense, you didn't out yourself through those, but you never tried to make anything much happen in the thread. You don't have to make any huge gambits like hzflank's Veteran fakeclaim but you do need to look like you're having an impact and trying to push a (town) agenda. If you look at the filter of Hurricane, hzflank, FirmTofu, Chromatically or myself I think there will be a lot more proactive behaviour than in yours. Obviously there's a limit to what you want to do as scum, but you would like to look at least similar to a townie.
EDIT: I don't necessarily mean pushing for a lynch by "proactive behaviour", though obviously that is a good example. Actively trying to generate useful information, and synthesising it into a relevant conclusion, is another example.
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You wouldn't believe the conspiracy theories I come up with they I don't actually share with town. I have a streak of Chezinu in me.
How does that quote go let me find it:
"Nothing of me is original. I am the combined effort of everybody I've ever known."
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On July 06 2013 06:41 Hurricane Sponge wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 06:37 Spicydinosaur wrote:On July 06 2013 06:32 StiMaDDict wrote:
uhh, this is bit awkward.
Since now everyone think I'm a hardcore lurker, regardless of my ailment in future games, even if I'm active in forum, I'll be suspicious? Dang..
I wouldnt think so. If you are active and scum hunting (or good at faking it) then you'll look town. What would someone say.... that your meta is you're a lurker in 2 newbie games... not a lynchable argument. I wouldnt worry too much unless you think you wont be active because of RL. Then just tell everyone pre-game before alignment goes out so it wont be an issue. That would be the greatest scumplay in the history of mankind. "He's too pro-town to be town. Lynch him."
This has happened to me. More than once. Don't have a really amazing first scum game, it ruins your not-being-lynched to being lynched ratio.
Didn't read the game so I have very little advice to give. Ace did a fine job as scum coach. Their role is totally different than a town coach. Don't whine just because scum coach did his job well. Town coaches also do a good job and make a big difference to townies.
One of you brought this diagram into play at least once, I can't seem to find the instance but you mentioned that scum would want to appear in the orange 'ignore' aspect of the venn diagram. WRONG! You totally missed the point of the diagram. It is about how meta analysis works, not about anything else. This diagram describes which parts of a persons play one should analyze when doing a meta read on another player; one should only look at the aspects of anothers' play which differentiates their scum play from their town play.
Prome out!
e: also OO is to a mafia god what I am to adonis.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On July 06 2013 20:58 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 06:41 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 06 2013 06:37 Spicydinosaur wrote:On July 06 2013 06:32 StiMaDDict wrote:
uhh, this is bit awkward.
Since now everyone think I'm a hardcore lurker, regardless of my ailment in future games, even if I'm active in forum, I'll be suspicious? Dang..
I wouldnt think so. If you are active and scum hunting (or good at faking it) then you'll look town. What would someone say.... that your meta is you're a lurker in 2 newbie games... not a lynchable argument. I wouldnt worry too much unless you think you wont be active because of RL. Then just tell everyone pre-game before alignment goes out so it wont be an issue. That would be the greatest scumplay in the history of mankind. "He's too pro-town to be town. Lynch him." This has happened to me. More than once. Don't have a really amazing first scum game, it ruins your not-being-lynched to being lynched ratio.
It doesn't, but it does make life a lot more stressful.
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So, Geript implied there were prepared analysis posts...
<hint hint>
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On July 06 2013 21:05 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 20:58 Promethelax wrote:On July 06 2013 06:41 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 06 2013 06:37 Spicydinosaur wrote:On July 06 2013 06:32 StiMaDDict wrote:
uhh, this is bit awkward.
Since now everyone think I'm a hardcore lurker, regardless of my ailment in future games, even if I'm active in forum, I'll be suspicious? Dang..
I wouldnt think so. If you are active and scum hunting (or good at faking it) then you'll look town. What would someone say.... that your meta is you're a lurker in 2 newbie games... not a lynchable argument. I wouldnt worry too much unless you think you wont be active because of RL. Then just tell everyone pre-game before alignment goes out so it wont be an issue. That would be the greatest scumplay in the history of mankind. "He's too pro-town to be town. Lynch him." This has happened to me. More than once. Don't have a really amazing first scum game, it ruins your not-being-lynched to being lynched ratio. It doesn't, but it does make life a lot more stressful.
i.e.
On November 08 2012 01:17 thrawn2112 wrote:
With drazak, I agree with a lot of the stuff already talked about.. specifically the voting from D2. So I could still lynch him depending on how the rest of D3 goes. However the drazak bandwagon seemed like maybe almost too much of a natural progression in the thread, and afterwards everyone agreed about drazak and activity was low ever since. So I'm just looking at different stuff in the meantime while waiting for drazak to post
I can't rule prom out. but a lot of that is based on me basically assuming you're town (stuff from prplhz during the early mason claims.) but other than that, I haven't had any huge concerns about prom's play, except that it felt too clean, too intentionally pro-town.
I'm curious if anyone thinks that release shouldn't be lynched.
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On July 06 2013 17:12 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 06:27 Spicydinosaur wrote:
Also any comments/criticism on my play is welcome. I've never actually rolled scum so I'm not sure how useful my comments will be, but there are one or two things I've thought of. I think you played a pretty good scum game - you were the only one of the scum team with a significant amount of thread presence and sway over the town after day one. There was never any one thing in your filter I could point to and say "scum did that". I think what you might need to keep in mind is your overall attitude to the game - your reads generally made sense, you didn't out yourself through those, but you never tried to make anything much happen in the thread. You don't have to make any huge gambits like hzflank's Veteran fakeclaim but you do need to look like you're having an impact and trying to push a (town) agenda. If you look at the filter of Hurricane, hzflank, FirmTofu, Chromatically or myself I think there will be a lot more proactive behaviour than in yours. Obviously there's a limit to what you want to do as scum, but you would like to look at least similar to a townie. EDIT: I don't necessarily mean pushing for a lynch by "proactive behaviour", though obviously that is a good example. Actively trying to generate useful information, and synthesising it into a relevant conclusion, is another example.
Good advice on the proactiveness. That seemed to get me in the end and separate me from everyone else. I guess next time im scum to have a better plan in place and not be afraid to make more waves. thanks
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On July 06 2013 14:10 Alakaslam wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 05:49 Chromatically wrote:
I still think that "scumslip" could just as easily be a miswording from a townie.
"You have to remember that scum have a tracker" ==> "You have to remember that scum could have a tracker"
and the rest of his point works just as well. ^^proof once again that Blazinghand is always right.
the real moral of the story isn't that scum don't make scumslips, but that people don't understand scumslips very well. town "slips" knowledge that they don't have all the time. Scum actually scumslips, also. Things like slipping the number of scum in a game, or the presence/absence of a scum tracker (especially with ambiguous wording, and especially because scum almost never have trackers) are certainly slips, but unless you can show they're slips that townies wouldn't make by accident it's not valuable.
most scumslips that people latch onto are things townies can, and do say. I scumslip about as often when town as I do when scum.
The real double moral of the story is that "scumslip" is a pretty bad method of distinguishing scum from town
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On July 07 2013 04:29 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 14:10 Alakaslam wrote:On July 06 2013 05:49 Chromatically wrote:
I still think that "scumslip" could just as easily be a miswording from a townie.
"You have to remember that scum have a tracker" ==> "You have to remember that scum could have a tracker"
and the rest of his point works just as well. ^^proof once again that Blazinghand is always right. the real moral of the story isn't that scum don't make scumslips, but that people don't understand scumslips very well. town "slips" knowledge that they don't have all the time. Scum actually scumslips, also. Things like slipping the number of scum in a game, or the presence/absence of a scum tracker (especially with ambiguous wording, and especially because scum almost never have trackers) are certainly slips, but unless you can show they're slips that townies wouldn't make by accident it's not valuable. most scumslips that people latch onto are things townies can, and do say. I scumslip about as often when town as I do when scum. The real double moral of the story is that "scumslip" is a pretty bad method of distinguishing scum from town
Well said, imo.
I think someone mentioned it earlier but scumslips aren't the be-all and end-all, they have to be used as evidence just like anything else (including meta) supporting a case as to why it's likely said person is mafia.
I've for sure fucked up and 'scumslipped' as town as well.
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On July 07 2013 04:29 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 14:10 Alakaslam wrote:On July 06 2013 05:49 Chromatically wrote:
I still think that "scumslip" could just as easily be a miswording from a townie.
"You have to remember that scum have a tracker" ==> "You have to remember that scum could have a tracker"
and the rest of his point works just as well. ^^proof once again that Blazinghand is always right. the real moral of the story isn't that scum don't make scumslips, but that people don't understand scumslips very well. town "slips" knowledge that they don't have all the time. Scum actually scumslips, also. Things like slipping the number of scum in a game, or the presence/absence of a scum tracker (especially with ambiguous wording, and especially because scum almost never have trackers) are certainly slips, but unless you can show they're slips that townies wouldn't make by accident it's not valuable. most scumslips that people latch onto are things townies can, and do say. I scumslip about as often when town as I do when scum. The real double moral of the story is that "scumslip" is a pretty bad method of distinguishing scum from town
For reference, see Catch 22 mafia.
On N1 is said i have a terrible hangover (true) and i would not probably have patience to reread the thread and do much. A couple of hours later i got better and from that point on i was the most active player in thread. Every single player though i was town... Except one guy. He said i "scumslipped". He was a vigilante and shot me. ggnore ^^
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I suggest everyone open their own filters and read them entirely one more time - look at where you were right, where you went wrong. I originally started out writing an analysis for each player, but it turned into just me reiterating what is already in your filter, so instead I'm going to give everyone general pointers.
- Establishing your towniness. Some of you we're obviously a little better at this than others but most of you got there. If you were being accused early game for not being town enough, take a look at some of the people in this game that were not accused and ask yourself why me and not them. Some general things that you generally cant go wrong with: Ask lots of people questions, be active and a part conversation and when you see something you find odd or puzzling, question them.
- Rolefishing and directing. Probably best to avoid this. Power roles are exciting, I can understand the temptation to want to talk about them, but it is actively working against your objective of finding the scum. Its almost always just a distraction and you really don't need blue roles to win this game (as you proved by going on to win this game with both your powerroles dead by end of Day 2). Rolefishing will get you accused of being mafia or if you are accidentally right, you may panic the blue into doing something stupid like slipping or claiming prematurely. Even if you're mafia, this will bring unnecessary attention your way, so don't do it unless you're prepared to defend why you're doing it with a good reason. So yeah, just don't do it =)
- Avoiding the tunnel. I think I already mentioned this in the obs QT somewhere but in case I only thought it and didn't actually post it - tunneling can be dangerous. All of you did really well in this regard, this was one of the cleanest newbie games I've seen in a long time due to how open to logical discussion everyone was. For example, Hurricane became a bit 'aqua focused' at one point, but reconsidered after the night kill and other townies input. Had he pressed on with that line of thinking in spite of the information being presented to him, that may have very well cost town the game (considering there were no more spare mislynches), so full credit to him there. A mark of a solid townie is realizing you are in tunnel mode, taking a step back, a deep breath and reassessing the situation.
- In a situation where you have two conflicting claims (as was Day 2 in this game) - take a look at the order the situation played out. Onegu was attracting a lot of heat before his initial claim, particularly from the most townie-looking-townies in Chrom (now dead), Firm and Hurricane. Someone mentioned that he wasn't under 'that much' scrutiny when he claimed, but you have to understand that when the 3 most townie looking people in the thread are all bearing down on you, things can look dire. Now, while its entirely possible that he is town and giving you the claim you need early in the day to make a decent decision - when the counterclaim comes forward, and in this case unnecessarily so, it should be given greater weight. Why would Alakaslam counterclaim here when he has the option of just saying nothing. Assuming the alignments were reversed, why would a scum Alakaslam be counterclaiming here? He is effectively trading his life for the chance that you believe him more and lynch Onegu first. After Onegu flips town, he's surely dead, so he's trading 1 for 1 to kill a townie that is already under a great deal of heat. Scum cannot afford to trade 1 for 1 in this manner, as they are at a severe numbers disadvantage. Lynching Alakaslam was a mistake, but a good lesson to learn now. Again, lynching the first claimer is not an Ironclad rule - the entire situation needs to be taken into consideration - but it is super unlikely in this situation that Onegu is town and Alakslam is scum as the cost-to-benefit here for the scum team is huge.
- Where the scum team went wrong: This has already been somewhat discussed but its worth going over again. Being reactive instead of proactive as scum will almost surely lose you a game - what you are doing is saying 'boy I sure hope this town implodes on itself while I keep my head down'. This can happen when you get several big town personalities that get a whole bunch of wrong reads, but id like to say more often than not, our townies get their act together and start realizing who is doing stuff and who isn't. Don't leave the game up to chance, get in there, get your hands dirty and proactively attack people, make them say stupid shit and push them for it. If you make it look good enough, not only will people lynch the person you're attacking, you might even get people giving you town reads while you do it! By the time Day 3 rolled around, it was very apparent that 4-5 of the townies were pretty town to everyone, leaving the scum no room to hide. When you run out of people to hide amongst, the mislynches dry up and the game is all but over.
That about wraps it from me. If anyone has any questions on their play or a particular event or strategy they want me to look at, feel free to reply here or shoot me a PM.
Thankyou all for playing, I enjoyed hosting and watching this game. Thankyou to geript for letting me share in the hosting duties.
Thankyou to all of the coaches and cohosts (yes even you OO ^^), I felt no need to use my two host/coach shots on anyone.
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Thanks Adam.
Regarding the claims on day 2 leading to the Alakaslam lynch: What do you think about the way that Alakaslam counter claimed? He did not counter and call Onegu scum. Alakaslam accidentally counter claimed and came to the conclusion that it meant both Onegu and he were town. With that in mind, is it still more likely that the person who made the original claim is scum?
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On July 08 2013 05:35 hzflank wrote:
Thanks Adam.
Regarding the claims on day 2 leading to the Alakaslam lynch: What do you think about the way that Alakaslam counter claimed? He did not counter and call Onegu scum. Alakaslam accidentally counter claimed and came to the conclusion that it meant both Onegu and he were town. With that in mind, is it still more likely that the person who made the original claim is scum?
Well I misread. I later, upon rereading, KNEW he was scum.
Can't remember if I said so.
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On July 07 2013 04:29 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 14:10 Alakaslam wrote:On July 06 2013 05:49 Chromatically wrote:
I still think that "scumslip" could just as easily be a miswording from a townie.
"You have to remember that scum have a tracker" ==> "You have to remember that scum could have a tracker"
and the rest of his point works just as well. ^^proof once again that Blazinghand is always right. the real moral of the story isn't that scum don't make scumslips, but that people don't understand scumslips very well. town "slips" knowledge that they don't have all the time. Scum actually scumslips, also. Things like slipping the number of scum in a game, or the presence/absence of a scum tracker (especially with ambiguous wording, and especially because scum almost never have trackers) are certainly slips, but unless you can show they're slips that townies wouldn't make by accident it's not valuable. most scumslips that people latch onto are things townies can, and do say. I scumslip about as often when town as I do when scum. The real double moral of the story is that "scumslip" is a pretty bad method of distinguishing scum from town
Seriously though, BH blows my mind every time, every time!
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On July 08 2013 05:35 hzflank wrote:
Thanks Adam.
Regarding the claims on day 2 leading to the Alakaslam lynch: What do you think about the way that Alakaslam counter claimed? He did not counter and call Onegu scum. Alakaslam accidentally counter claimed and came to the conclusion that it meant both Onegu and he were town. With that in mind, is it still more likely that the person who made the original claim is scum?
Admittedly yes, that is a strange occurrence.
Why would you even counterclaim if you thought the other person was also town. If their story directly contradicts the information that you've been given from the hosts, chances are they're scum and lying. Generally these kind of ill-thought-out claims are usually always town. Scum ask in their QT: "does this claim make sense, should I claim here?", town don't have that luxury so you can get some pretty sub-optimal claims out of them.
- In this situation, the odds of a Town-Onegu/ Scum-Alakaslam go down even further. Scum-Alakaslam is claiming blue and claiming both himself and Onegu are town, to what end? to save Townie-Onegu? Nahhh, not in this world. Onegu was already in trouble, sit back and watch the fireworks, or even better, pour fuel on the fire. Why risk your own life (as scum-Alakaslam) to counterclaim, only to not want to kill the counterclaimed person afterwards?
- Then there's the possibility they're both scum. Again, I consider this quite unlikely, because if they were both talking to each other in a QT, you'd think they'd be able to come up with a more coherent and believable claim so as to not accidentally counterclaim each other. Never completely discount it though, we've had some shockers here in the past.
- Next would be town/town. Impossible due to what both of them are reporting they received from the host.
- Most probable conclusion is Scum-Onegu/ Town-Alakaslam and Alakaslam is making the right call (to claim) but coming to the wrong conclusion from it (that Onegu is also town).
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/mOHGjne)
