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On July 06 2013 05:57 LoneMeow wrote:
My 3 major lessons from this game were:
1) I utterly suck as scum, far more than I do as town
2) Don't bother playing if you can't play full on from the start, playing from behind the whole game is not fun
3) Playing scum is not as much fun, and generates a whole lot of stress
Probably the only thing I managed to get right was latching on to Xzavier on day 1. After that it was just downhill all the way.
Going to take at least one game break for now I think - this game quite literally made me lose sleep and appetite from the stress, so I think I need some time to recover.
Thanks to all the hosts and players and sorry to my teammates whom I let down.
Im with you on the stress. So much easier playing town and scum hunting. I'm sure itll get easier with future games but damn.
You didnt let us down lone, all 3 of us made mistakes at some point. I was just glad we didnt get lynched 1,2,3 from the start.
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I learned that i need to work on analyzing alot better. all of my scumhunting is basically OMGUS and make a case on him T.T still pretty fun. been carried twice :D
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It's beyond my imagination that I survived to the end.. >.<
I played a pretty terrible town and I thought scums would have jumped on me by Day2.
It was a lot of fun playing with you guys ^^
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On July 06 2013 05:59 hzflank wrote:
To be fair Lone, Town really picked their game up after Onegu. I would put the result more on Hurricane and Aqua than on you. Aqua had to walk a real tightrope for a long time in order to avoid being lynched.
I'm surprised you suspected Aqua so much. From my POV his filter read very towny the whole time. In fact I had major issues during day 2 (before the claims) because I couldn't pick up anything legitimately scummy in anyone's filter who wasn't on my team. Which is why I made that terrible (but completely in line with my previous play) case on Alakaslam.
Obviously knowing someone is town makes it hard to get an objective read on him, though.
Somewhat surprised you didn't pick up the very obvious lack of contact between myself and Onegu, and to a lesser extent myself and Spicy. That, more than anything, was stressing me out horribly because I knew how bad it looked but never had a good chance to fix it without taking other risks.
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I did pickup on your lack of contact with Spicy, I think I mentioned it late on. But to be honest, I only noticed it because it was in contrast to your contact with Aqua, who mentioned you several times.
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On July 06 2013 05:58 VisceraEyes wrote:
Don't hate just because you didn't make full use of your coaches. Scum coaches are different from town coaches in that they have all the information just like the scumteam does - so coaching scum is less about trying to help newbies without slipping information about others and more about general strategy/advice.
Having read most of the ScumQT I don't think anything Ace did was out of line. He was certainly more active as a coach than I usually am, but I don't think he "orchestrated the game" by any stretch.
I specifically asked for Onegu's reason for Watching a scum read several times, and he was struggling to come up with the only town-side reason for doing so:
On June 28 2013 09:52 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
I want Onegu's REASONS for deciding to Watch alakaslam last night as well. Friendly reminder so no one speculates on this topic publicly.
On June 28 2013 17:46 Hurricane Sponge wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 14:56 Onegu wrote:On June 28 2013 14:40 Alakaslam wrote:On June 28 2013 08:44 FirmTofu wrote:
He is claiming that either Spicy or hzflank is a blue town role that visited Alakaslam last right.
He refuses to say which of the two, but it is very easy to narrow down for any observer. What purpose did it serve to keep town in the dark?
Either hzflank or Spicy needs to confirm what Onegu is saying about them, otherwise an Onegu lynch remains inevitable.
Even if hzflank or Spicy confirm, we have to consider that they may be in a mafia team together. We will need to gather evidence for and against this and analyze it with the information we have at our disposal.
It could also be the case that Onegu is a mafia tracker who tracked a town hzflank or Spicy to Alakaslam's house. We would also have to find evidence to refute this possibility. Wait who visited me? No wait I need to tea his claim again HE watched Hurricane- he visited hurricane, may as well spill the beans now that I am a class A idiot. Quick thing before I walk out the door, I watched you Alakaslam, someone who I have a town read on visited you. I was hopeing to either confirm my suspicions on you or see if you are town by who visited you, I was unable to do so as the person who visited you doesnt confirm anything, except it makes me wonder why he visited you and the only thing I can think of is he thinks you are scum also. This makes me lean scum on you. It in no way clears you. This is not the reasoning I was looking for from Onegu to 'Watch' Alakaslam. I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying that generally, most good Watchers would try to Watch a likely mafiakill target, to try to catch the person delivering KP. By stating he thought Alakaslam was scum, that obviously wasn't his intention. There is one good reason for a Town Watcher Onegu to target Alakaslam (if anyone knows it, do not say it. It is meaningless unless it comes from him), but if Onegu can't come up with it by the deadline, he's likely either a Mafia Tracker or Mafia Framer. I'm still working on scenarios for our current dilemma, but my Town/Town scenario relies on some outstanding questions I've issued to the moderators.
On June 28 2013 18:22 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
As it's important to say everything right now, I figured I'll throw these key points out there:
IN GENERAL:
Tracking Scum makes sense (track the guy you think may take the shot)
Watching Townies (NK targets) makes sense (watch the victim and you get the killer's name)
Tracking Townies doesn't make sense (as a townie. It obviously makes sense as scum)
Watching scum makes sense IN ONE VERY SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCE
If our Watcher cannot give us this reason, he obviously did not do it for that reason. And thus, in this instance, his Watch target did not make sense.
Alakaslam is claiming to be a Town Tracker. He 'tracked' a scum read. According to the above, this makes sense.
Onegu is claiming to be a Town Watcher. He 'watched' a scum read. According to the above, this does not make sense.
Even if the two claims weren't incompatible, the play motivation must be considered like this.
Regarding the Watcher target:
This in a vacuum could be explained by Bad Play, but in conjunction with reports from a Tracker claiming otherwise, it paints a significantly more sinister picture.
No one is disputing that Onegu acquired knowledge last night. By some means, he deduced something that likely happened. However, it is not just a Watcher that could have figured that out. Indeed, it is actually MORE LIKELY in this scenario for a Mafia Tracker or a Mafia Framer to figure it out!
A mafia Tracker could choose to 'track' a high-profile townie for various reasons
A mafia Framer would CERTAINLY choose to follow THE MOST HIGH PROFILE TOWNIE NOT BEING SHOT THAT NIGHT. (If you don't know why, we need to get you back to Mafia School. At the time actions were declared, the Parity Cop was alive. Mafia know that the Cop will check his scummiest read vs. his towniest read. The framer's play is to figure out who is most everyone's towniest read, barring the person who is getting shot that night, and pay them a visit, essentially flipping their alignment and throwing the Parity Cop off course.)
Both of these situations could explain how Onegu acquired the knowledge he did, and neither situation conflicts with Alakaslam's story.
From the flipside, to claim that 'Slam is lying and scum, while Onegu is Town and a Watcher:
Our town Watcher picked scum to watch for the night (sub-optimal use of the power, when there was a very clear target on the board)
The Scum Tracker ('slam) tracked a townie who was under significant pressure and likely to be next-day lynched (Onegu)
I know assuming optimal play is folly in a newbie game, but I'd like to assume my teammates and opponents aren't this terrible at this.
Unless Onegu is a second Town Tracker and randomly lied by saying he's a Watcher, or came up with the luckiest guess in the history of lucky guesses to start today, there is no situation I can think of currently that Onegu is not scum.
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IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO CORRECT ME IF ANY OF THE ABOVE LOGIC IS WRONG. THESE ARE THE ASSUMPTIONS MY DECISIONS ARE BASED ON, AND IF I AM TO RE-EVALUATE WITH NEW INFORMATION IT WILL TAKE TIME
He would have been lynched that day if not for their coach posting this in their QT to bail them out:
Sigma Devil:
"reveal that in the thread you watched Alakaslam and he was visited by Hurricane then when you have time. Read everything before you respond. If you need help ask your team before you take action.
ETA: actually the claim on its own is bad. Hurricane's post sums it up: Watchers want to target their Town reads, Trackers Scum reads. If you had Ala as a Scum read you dont have many logical reasons for Watching him. I thought you claimed to Track him but that was my mistake for speed reading. I'll try to think about a reason you would need to watch Alakaslam as a Town read, and the best I can come up with is you thought he would be framed by his Scum team thinking he would be an investigation target based on Day 1 (Parity Cop).
Either way this is a great learning experience as you can now figure out how to argue from bad position. Go for it 
ETA: I'll be around for the next hour or so on and off. Ask me anything you need clarification for before posting."
Then Onegu parroted the answer to the live thread:
On June 28 2013 19:07 Onegu wrote:
Sorry I am back, the reason I watched alakaslam was because I had a scum read on him and thought I could confirm it and catch another scum player by who visited him as they would most likely be there to frame him. I tried to think of who would be killed but when I couldnt come up with someone before I slept I went with my next best course of action wich was to try and catch two scum.
Also did you confirm you visited alakaslam Hurricane? I am reading amd it looks like you did confirm.
I watched Alakaslam and he was visited by my biggest town read in Hurricane.
Sorry if I sound bitter. Just pointing out the direct and tangible impact the mafia coach had on the Day 2 lynch.
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On July 06 2013 06:07 StiMaDDict wrote:
It's beyond my imagination that I survived to the end.. >.<
I played a pretty terrible town and I thought scums would have jumped on me by Day2.
It was a lot of fun playing with you guys ^^
Given your playstyle, I thought it would be best to leave you alive all the way to end, since you're essentially hurting town and not helping it for the most part when you only come to post once every lynch just before the deadline.
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On July 06 2013 06:03 Xzavier wrote:
I learned that i need to work on analyzing alot better. all of my scumhunting is basically OMGUS and make a case on him T.T still pretty fun. been carried twice :D
Your analysis and META META META were invaluable to me this game. You solidified Tofu as Town after your death because your town reads are awesome, and since you suck at scumhunting, I got to cross a bunch of people that you thought were Mafia off my list!
(Just kidding, love you Xzavier. <3)
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On July 06 2013 05:55 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 05:49 Chromatically wrote:
I still think that "scumslip" could just as easily be a miswording from a townie.
"You have to remember that scum have a tracker" ==> "You have to remember that scum could have a tracker"
and the rest of his point works just as well. yeah except it was a proper slip. it COULD have been a miswording, but likelihood is that it isn't, probably. Further it wasn't the only time on day 1 he slipped something like that. Once it happens twice... well, yeah ^^
It happened twice? Totally missed that :/
I was thinking of a scumslip as "instalynch gg no filterreading needed", but scumslips are just more evidence, not proof (right?). I ignored it when I read it because it could have come from town, but I never brought it up later when I was suspicious of Onegu because I had crossed it off as invalid in my mind.
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The great thing about Onegu's claim was the timing in relation to Aqua's public service announcement. Once Aqua defended Onegu, it made it look like Aqua has been trying to work out whether Hurricane was NN or JK, at a time when Aqua did not know that anyone had seen Hurricane at night.
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Wanted to have a separate post to thank ace for his scum coaching. What he did that really helped me was to basically calm me down. There were a few times were i was getting heat and he said "itll pass dont panic." For my first scum game, i learned a ton, so thank you.
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Also any comments/criticism on my play is welcome.
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Onegu's claim was the single most frustrating thing in this game for me.
First it completely threw out all the plans I had just finished at that point (after returning from Norway I had to pretty much reread the entire thread) and once we were voting for the lynch, Hurricane managed to get his vote in while I was writing my vote post so my vote ended up being the deciding one without me knowing when I was doing it. Once I saw that I knew I'd probably be lynched for that but I couldn't just go and switch either as that would have ended up with Onegu being lynched and wouldn't probably have saved me anyway.
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Spicy, you played really well. If you hadn't made a case to get me mislynched early, I doubt you would have been on my radar at all until Day 3.
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np, anytime. Was a good experience and fun game to read.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
Hurricane et al, Ace was just fine. Part of the reason mafia coaches can *seem* to help more is that townies never have to be anything but sincere, scum have to maintain a web of lies and deception. Thus it's much easier to slip up and help can be necessary. Townies can ask all sorts of things from their coaches, from general scumhunting to just asking if something makes sense, whereas with mafia it tends to be the other way round.
On July 06 2013 06:16 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 05:55 marvellosity wrote:On July 06 2013 05:49 Chromatically wrote:
I still think that "scumslip" could just as easily be a miswording from a townie.
"You have to remember that scum have a tracker" ==> "You have to remember that scum could have a tracker"
and the rest of his point works just as well. yeah except it was a proper slip. it COULD have been a miswording, but likelihood is that it isn't, probably. Further it wasn't the only time on day 1 he slipped something like that. Once it happens twice... well, yeah ^^ It happened twice? Totally missed that :/ I was thinking of a scumslip as "instalynch gg no filterreading needed", but scumslips are just more evidence, not proof (right?). I ignored it when I read it because it could have come from town, but I never brought it up later when I was suspicious of Onegu because I had crossed it off as invalid in my mind.
Yeah he either repeated something similar or made some other comment on the composition of the scumteam. can't remember exactly.
Your attitude towards scumslips there is about right. Very occasionally a slip can be so egregious it's lynchable, but normally it's just something that makes you look extra hard at someone.
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uhh, this is bit awkward.
Since now everyone think I'm a hardcore lurker, regardless of my ailment in future games, even if I'm active in forum, I'll be suspicious? Dang..
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On July 06 2013 06:30 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
Spicy, you played really well. If you hadn't made a case to get me mislynched early, I doubt you would have been on my radar at all until Day 3.
I was actually going to throw my vote on fyfy but as i was writing it, he got modkilled. I was actually about to post it too but wanted to check the thread again for some info and saw the post. So i quickly went through other filters and picked yours.
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I especially like the bit of scum QT where Ace calls me 'very dangerous'.
/flex
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EPT
