| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
|
Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
From the post for us newbs: "Please do not talk about any ongoing games either in-game or pre-game. This can affect other games and is unacceptable. Please do not refer to outside-of- thread activity of players in this thread." I have already messed up in this regard and I apologize. But note some folks have also talked about meta from previous newbie games and I don't think we are allowed to do that either. Will ask In green tomorrow when not trying to go to bed and when at computer. (iPhone) | ||
|
Onegu
United States9699 Posts
On June 24 2013 15:32 Alakaslam wrote: I know I sai I'd go but this came up. From the post for us newbs: "Please do not talk about any ongoing games either in-game or pre-game. This can affect other games and is unacceptable. Please do not refer to outside-of- thread activity of players in this thread." I have already messed up in this regard and I apologize. But note some folks have also talked about meta from previous newbie games and I don't think we are allowed to do that either. Will ask In green tomorrow when not trying to go to bed and when at computer. (iPhone) We are ok since the games we are talking about have finished already. | ||
|
Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
On June 24 2013 15:35 Onegu wrote: We are ok since the games we are talking about have finished already. Sweet! Thanks again Onegu. I think I'll read those then- Tomorrow. Man this is worse than angry birds, I am thoroughly addicted. For now here is a list, so ALL of town can meta :D http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412757 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=407058 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405359 Sorry that there is no meta on me, I'm that new. Note that some players may not only have played newbie games. Search their names! How late you want me up, midnight? I get up at 5 tomorrow! Also, check that you don't get into the above error first. | ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
Let's have a look at how a roleclaim would play out for scum and town separately so it is easier to visualize. Event: NN roleclaims Scum Information Set: Know who the NN is with a rather high degree of certainty Town Information Set: Could be an NN or could be scum faking NN. Learn absolutely nothing. Just based on the information that each side gains, we can see that scum takes a clear lead instantaneously. They will choose to avoid the NN if they have a Tracker and can proceed to eliminate one person from the long list of priority targets. Town remains confused as to the NN's alignment and ends up in a shitty situation. If you can find a way to resolve this issue, Aquanim, I would love to hear it. Otherwise, I have you pegged as scum. | ||
|
Onegu
United States9699 Posts
On June 24 2013 15:46 Alakaslam wrote: Sweet! Thanks again Onegu. I think I'll read those then- Tomorrow. Man this is worse than angry birds, I am thoroughly addicted. For now here is a list, so ALL of town can meta :D http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412757 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=407058 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405359 Sorry that there is no meta on me, I'm that new. Note that some players may not only have played newbie games. Search their names! How late you want me up, midnight? I get up at 5 tomorrow! Also, check that you don't get into the above error first. Ok guys meta on peoples play you shold have played with that person at least 5 times, as this is impossible please stop trying to meta peoples play. It is ok to infer somethings on game setup, but people are still learning thier playstyle in a newbie game so you cannot base a scum read on meta play in noob games... | ||
|
Onegu
United States9699 Posts
On June 24 2013 16:09 FirmTofu wrote: I know Aquanim wanted me to comment on Chromatically, but I would rather address his suggestion to have the NN roleclaim. Let's have a look at how a roleclaim would play out for scum and town separately so it is easier to visualize. Event: NN roleclaims Scum Information Set: Know who the NN is with a rather high degree of certainty Town Information Set: Could be an NN or could be scum faking NN. Learn absolutely nothing. Just based on the information that each side gains, we can see that scum takes a clear lead instantaneously. They will choose to avoid the NN if they have a Tracker and can proceed to eliminate one person from the long list of priority targets. Town remains confused as to the NN's alignment and ends up in a shitty situation. If you can find a way to resolve this issue, Aquanim, I would love to hear it. Otherwise, I have you pegged as scum. I agree with this the first person who wrote about NN made me feel noob town, but the second person to post after hearing what was said against it is very odd/scummy. | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 24 2013 16:09 FirmTofu wrote: I know Aquanim wanted me to comment on Chromatically, but I would rather address his suggestion to have the NN roleclaim. Let's have a look at how a roleclaim would play out for scum and town separately so it is easier to visualize. Event: NN roleclaims Scum Information Set: Know who the NN is with a rather high degree of certainty Town Information Set: Could be an NN or could be scum faking NN. Learn absolutely nothing. Just based on the information that each side gains, we can see that scum takes a clear lead instantaneously. They will choose to avoid the NN if they have a Tracker and can proceed to eliminate one person from the long list of priority targets. Town remains confused as to the NN's alignment and ends up in a shitty situation. If you can find a way to resolve this issue, Aquanim, I would love to hear it. Otherwise, I have you pegged as scum. First, scum is unlikely to claim NN day 1 for fear of being counter-claimed. Somebody who claims NN is obviously not confirmed town, but they're considerably more likely to be town. I have personally never seen a day-one miller claim (analogous to a NN, with different investigative rolls) end up being scum, and plenty end up being town. A miller/NN who is thus likely town and can thus play a strong, town-leading role is a HIGHER PRIORITY for scum to kill than a possible bluesnipe. Also, a day-one NN claim avoids two possibly disastrous situations later on: 1) An actual NN being seen visiting someone and being lynched for it. 2) Mafia fake-claiming NN after being seen visiting somebody. Auto-lynching any NN claim is bad for in the first case, treating NN as town is bad in the second case. A day one claim, before there's any desperate need for a scum to fake-claim it, fixes both of these. The gain in information which scum gets from a day-one NN claim IS NOT SIGNIFICANT. Even IF scum has a tracker, a NN claim reduces their pool of players to track by something like 10% (I haven't done the math but it's about that). And like I said, if the NN plays a good town game he becomes EVEN MORE IMPORTANT for scum to shoot. Scum knowing not to track the NN is less valuable than town knowing not to track him. I'm tired of trying to beat sense into y'all about this, and I'm tired of y'all calling me scum over a difference of opinion about game theory. Someone man up and vote me over this trash or start playing the game properly. On June 24 2013 16:15 Onegu wrote: I agree with this the first person who wrote about NN made me feel noob town, but the second person to post after hearing what was said against it is very odd/scummy. The other guy's plan was bad for other reasons. In this case, however, I am right, the rest of you are wrong, and I am trying to persuade you of that. I'm starting to feel like this is a waste of time though. My case. On Chromatically. Opinions please. | ||
|
Hurricane Sponge
868 Posts
On June 24 2013 12:35 Xzavier wrote: But, the flipside. We have Parity cop who can effectively check two people every night. He shouldnt claim. Unless he is getting lynched (and we will still lynch you, mind this) You should say who you have found as scum, or confirmed town. You can take your strongest town read and then strongest scum read, and compare them. if the are two different alignments, its pretty obvious who is who. IF you REALLY want to play like a traditional cop. then select one of the two names as yourself, this way you can see if they are the same alignment as you (town) or not (scum) Is this allowed? Would a Parity Cop be able to select himself as one of the two people for his investigation? | ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On June 24 2013 16:26 Aquanim wrote: First, scum is unlikely to claim NN day 1 for fear of being counter-claimed. Somebody who claims NN is obviously not confirmed town, but they're considerably more likely to be town. I have personally never seen a day-one miller claim (analogous to a NN, with different investigative rolls) end up being scum, and plenty end up being town. A miller/NN who is thus likely town and can thus play a strong, town-leading role is a HIGHER PRIORITY for scum to kill than a possible bluesnipe. Also, a day-one NN claim avoids two possibly disastrous situations later on: 1) An actual NN being seen visiting someone and being lynched for it. 2) Mafia fake-claiming NN after being seen visiting somebody. Auto-lynching any NN claim is bad for in the first case, treating NN as town is bad in the second case. A day one claim, before there's any desperate need for a scum to fake-claim it, fixes both of these. The gain in information which scum gets from a day-one NN claim IS NOT SIGNIFICANT. Even IF scum has a tracker, a NN claim reduces their pool of players to track by something like 10% (I haven't done the math but it's about that). And like I said, if the NN plays a good town game he becomes EVEN MORE IMPORTANT for scum to shoot. Scum knowing not to track the NN is less valuable than town knowing not to track him. I'm tired of trying to beat sense into y'all about this, and I'm tired of y'all calling me scum over a difference of opinion about game theory. Someone man up and vote me over this trash or start playing the game properly. The other guy's plan was bad for other reasons. In this case, however, I am right, the rest of you are wrong, and I am trying to persuade you of that. I'm starting to feel like this is a waste of time though. My case. On Chromatically. Opinions please. Your condescending tone is strangely alluring. You are right that an NN claim is unlikely to be mafia, just because it is a quite a risky gambit. I knew that, but omitted it from my previous statement to strengthen my argument. I will agree to disagree about whether the fact that the gain in information to scum is significant, but overall, you make a solid case for an NN claim. I concede on the grounds that I am unfamiliar with how this sort of role interacts with others, and your argument seems sound. As for Chromatically... Your case is extremely weak. On June 24 2013 13:28 Aquanim wrote: Regarding scum Current scumread is Chromatically for two reasons. 1) I don't like the feel of his initial posts. Making troll-cases to get the game rolling is fine, I have no objection to that in as of itself, but there's a certain nit-picking quality to his posts that feels wrong to me. Trying to read something into someone not posting for five minutes is ludicrous. 2) He's been doing a lot of asking other people for their reads while offering nothing even approaching one of his own. ##Vote: Chromatically Addressing your point 1), you are going off a bad feeling. Feelings don't cut it for me. I need evidence to make a move. Addressing point 2), it seems quite town to me because it's forcing lurkers to talk. Talking is good for town, so I see this move as something a townie would do. There are a few other things that make me think Chromatically is town. He was the first person to point out the foolish aspects of Hurricane's poorly thought-out claim. What incentive would mafia have to steer town in the right direction? | ||
|
Onegu
United States9699 Posts
On June 24 2013 16:43 Hurricane Sponge wrote: Is this allowed? Would a Parity Cop be able to select himself as one of the two people for his investigation? You are the nerd of the bunch and pretend to mess around with beakers, flasks and strange colored liquids. In actuality, you were barely accepted into Angel Grove Community College. You're real power has always been knowing when you need to run away or not. Once per night you may submit the name of two other players; the following day, you will learn whether these two players have the same or different alignment. Read the OP people | ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
##Vote: fyfy because he is the only person who hasn't spoken yet. Keep your eye on Stim and Meow as well because they are lurking, especially Stim. | ||
|
Onegu
United States9699 Posts
On June 24 2013 16:48 FirmTofu wrote: Your condescending tone is strangely alluring. You are right that an NN claim is unlikely to be mafia, just because it is a quite a risky gambit. I knew that, but omitted it from my previous statement to strengthen my argument. I will agree to disagree about whether the fact that the gain in information to scum is significant, but overall, you make a solid case for an NN claim. I concede on the grounds that I am unfamiliar with how this sort of role interacts with others, and your argument seems sound. As for Chromatically... Your case is extremely weak. Addressing your point 1), you are going off a bad feeling. Feelings don't cut it for me. I need evidence to make a move. Addressing point 2), it seems quite town to me because it's forcing lurkers to talk. Talking is good for town, so I see this move as something a townie would do. There are a few other things that make me think Chromatically is town. He was the first person to point out the foolish aspects of Hurricane's poorly thought-out claim. What incentive would mafia have to steer town in the right direction? #2 is ok for day 1 somewhat but it is a good way for scum to make it look like being active but not doing anything, if he is scum and knows who the town are asking town what thier thoughts on other town are, is a good way to keep people looking at actual town, not scum because they want to respond to the question. | ||
|
Onegu
United States9699 Posts
Wow that was confuse how I wrote it. Bad to just ask questions without makeing your own points because if you are scum you can just make town answer questions about how they feel about other townies. | ||
|
Onegu
United States9699 Posts
On June 24 2013 16:53 FirmTofu wrote: As I am about to go to bed, I would like to go ahead and ##Vote: fyfy because he is the only person who hasn't spoken yet. Keep your eye on Stim and Meow as well because they are lurking, especially Stim. It is better to vote for lurkers who have posted one time and stopped then to vote for someone who hasnt posted anything because they will most likely get replaced or modkilled. | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 24 2013 16:48 FirmTofu wrote: As for Chromatically... Your case is extremely weak. Addressing your point 1), you are going off a bad feeling. Feelings don't cut it for me. I need evidence to make a move. I suppose that's a fair enough position to hold. I've personally found that my reads based on 'feelings' are often more accurate than those where I carefully assemble 'evidence'. This doesn't feel to me like the town Chromatic which I played with in Newbie XXXIII. Addressing point 2), it seems quite town to me because it's forcing lurkers to talk. Talking is good for town, so I see this move as something a townie would do. Asking questions is a town-y kind of thing to do, I agree. However, in my mind it is only significantly town-y when there is an actual plan behind those questions. By comparison, Chromatic was asking pretty generic questions without any real point or follow-up. Asking other people for their reads while having shared none of his own does not sit well with me. There are a few other things that make me think Chromatically is town. He was the first person to point out the foolish aspects of Hurricane's poorly thought-out claim. What incentive would mafia have to steer town in the right direction? Pointing out that some plan or another is stupid before anyone else does is a really cheap way of accumulating town-cred without committing to anything. Someone was going to shoot that plan down either way, so a scum player would have nothing to gain from not shooting it down. All this being said, I think that what he's done so far could plausibly be explained by a town mentality as well as a scum one. If he comes back tomorrow and starts playing a good town-game I'll be looking to lynch somebody else. For the meantime, though, my vote and intention stays. | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 24 2013 16:59 Onegu wrote: It is better to vote for lurkers who have posted one time and stopped then to vote for someone who hasnt posted anything because they will most likely get replaced or modkilled. It is even better to vote for people who have posted some stuff but haven't been useful, since you'll probably get a reaction out of them (and others) which will help you find scum. Voting a lurker doesn't accomplish much at this point in the day. | ||
|
Hurricane Sponge
868 Posts
On June 24 2013 16:26 Aquanim wrote: First, scum is unlikely to claim NN day 1 for fear of being counter-claimed. Somebody who claims NN is obviously not confirmed town, but they're considerably more likely to be town. I have personally never seen a day-one miller claim (analogous to a NN, with different investigative rolls) end up being scum, and plenty end up being town. A miller/NN who is thus likely town and can thus play a strong, town-leading role is a HIGHER PRIORITY for scum to kill than a possible bluesnipe. Also, a day-one NN claim avoids two possibly disastrous situations later on: 1) An actual NN being seen visiting someone and being lynched for it. 2) Mafia fake-claiming NN after being seen visiting somebody. Auto-lynching any NN claim is bad for in the first case, treating NN as town is bad in the second case. A day one claim, before there's any desperate need for a scum to fake-claim it, fixes both of these. The gain in information which scum gets from a day-one NN claim IS NOT SIGNIFICANT. Even IF scum has a tracker, a NN claim reduces their pool of players to track by something like 10% (I haven't done the math but it's about that). And like I said, if the NN plays a good town game he becomes EVEN MORE IMPORTANT for scum to shoot. Scum knowing not to track the NN is less valuable than town knowing not to track him. I'm tired of trying to beat sense into y'all about this, and I'm tired of y'all calling me scum over a difference of opinion about game theory. Someone man up and vote me over this trash or start playing the game properly. The other guy's plan was bad for other reasons. In this case, however, I am right, the rest of you are wrong, and I am trying to persuade you of that. I'm starting to feel like this is a waste of time though. My case. On Chromatically. Opinions please. I'll drop the whole NN thing if people feel like we're getting off-track with it, but it seems like we're in a holding pattern while we wait for inactives to defend themselves. Regarding the NN Claim: This is a part of the game I clearly don't understand the far-reaching implications of. Addressing point #2, specifically: "Mafia fake-claiming NN after being seen visiting somebody. A day one claim, before there's any desperate need for a scum to fake-claim it, fixes (this)." Is the value of preventing a mafia NN claim later in the game more than the benefit of having a real NN around to counter-claim it in the moment, catching the scum in the act? (This assumes the remaining townies have pegged the real NN as more town than the first claimant). Do not get discouraged- I would like to hear your thoughts on this subject, and it's important to emphasize that people make up their own minds on this matter as there is likely at least 1 scum trying to steer public opinion in the 'wrong' direction on this issue. You seem to have already convinced FirmTofu, and this is the kind of matter we can get Town Consensus on now in the early game. | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 24 2013 17:55 Hurricane Sponge wrote: I'll drop the whole NN thing if people feel like we're getting off-track with it, but it seems like we're in a holding pattern while we wait for inactives to defend themselves. Regarding the NN Claim: This is a part of the game I clearly don't understand the far-reaching implications of. Addressing point #2, specifically: "Mafia fake-claiming NN after being seen visiting somebody. A day one claim, before there's any desperate need for a scum to fake-claim it, fixes (this)." Is the value of preventing a mafia NN claim later in the game more than the benefit of having a real NN around to counter-claim it in the moment, catching the scum in the act? (This assumes the remaining townies have pegged the real NN as more town than the first claimant). Do not get discouraged- I would like to hear your thoughts on this subject, and it's important to emphasize that people make up their own minds on this matter as there is likely at least 1 scum trying to steer public opinion in the 'wrong' direction on this issue. You seem to have already convinced FirmTofu, and this is the kind of matter we can get Town Consensus on now in the early game. The trouble with relying on a Nosy Neighbour counter-claiming later on is that we have no guarantee that there is even a Nosy Neighbour in the game. If there isn't, and scum fake-claims it, they get away scot-free. Sure, we could lynch an uncounterclaimed Nosy Neighbour, but enforcing a claim of it day 1 avoids considerations of "did he only claim it to avoid a lynch?". If there is an actual NN, and scum fake-claims it, then they get counter-claimed and lynched, which is OK. Also, if there is a Nosy Neighbour and they are forced to claim at LYLO, then scum can counter-claim and leave us with a 50-50 chance (which might be a lot better than what they faced before). Since scum would probably only claim NN if it was a choice between a fakeclaim and being lynched, if the NN claim is not available to them they're just as dead (if not more) than if they were counter-claimed anyway. Thus there is no advantage to leaving a NN claim till later in the hopes of counterclaiming a fakeclaim. | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
| ||
|
fyfy
Singapore13 Posts
| ||
| ||
|
|
Sparkling Tuna Cup
WardiTV European League
PiGosaur Monday
OSC
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
The PondCast
Online Event
Korean StarCraft League
CranKy Ducklings
Online Event
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
