EPTHow are two complete lurkers list-worthy in your scum-reads section?
Catch 22 Mafia - Page 2
| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
How are two complete lurkers list-worthy in your scum-reads section? | ||
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
| ||
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
| ||
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
| ||
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
| ||
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On June 22 2013 02:23 ShiaoPi wrote: ebwop: let me just verify GK, I am scum to you because I: -answered a question -called you out on your shitty case I am quite amused about this omgus. That’s not it at all Shao. Allow me to elaborate, as apparently you haven’t read my filter close enough to understand. 1) Your only case, which happens to be on me, you claim to be not based on meta. And yet your opening post that highlights why you’re voting me says it’s based on how I played last game, which is the very definition of a meta-case. You said: On June 21 2013 23:02 ShiaoPi wrote: gk's case on oats is pretty trash. Gut feeling says scum to me at the moment, maybe because it feels a lot like his posting last game, where we both were scum. ##vote: goodkarma oh yamato is nullish dude who looks scummy if that clarification was needed But then you go on to say: On June 22 2013 00:43 ShiaoPi wrote: its not specifically a meta case, meta is just supportive of objectively scummy play by fabricating a case based on a players inconsistent, wild playstyle So it's not a meta-case? Then what scum motive did I have for making this case, which by the way, wasn't even a case + Show Spoiler + (in case you were wondering, this post is what would constitute a case) 2) Besides me, you have taken lots of time aside to say how little of a stance or opinion you have on anyone else in the game. You go so far as to say that beyond me, the only people worth disliking are complete lurkers that have done literally nothing all game. This is one way that scum can maintain activity without adding any value. In short, you should definitely know that one discussion point, even if you deem it bad, doesn’t mean I’m necessarily scum. I mean unless you have a firm meta-read or something? But wait, your case has nothing to do with meta… Yet… Your case is in fact literally based solely on meta… You’ve been contradicting yourself on this point. And this is the only point to your case... And this case is the only thing we can really judge you on since everything else in your filter surrounds null reads... And you can't be bothered to see how I'd play differently as town, which makes even less sense to me from a town perspective. Like why would you vote me for meta reasons, while completely overlooking how I'd make such a discussion point only as scum and not as town? I don't think you've even ever been in any of my towngames, so how can you be so sure of yourself that you'd drop a vote off this meta-case of yours based solely on your familiarity with my scumplay? In short, you're showing the disinterest in this game that I'd expect from scum. There's much more legwork I would have expected if you were actually pursuing me as a scumread as town. This is further shown by the fact that your only real activity besides this case has been around making lots of null reads. Your list post especially doesn’t sit well with me. | ||
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On June 22 2013 19:26 ShiaoPi wrote: wow goodkarma's case one me was just as terrible as the one on oats. Fairly happy with where my vote is right now. Just for the sake of refuting: I am not contradicting myself there, gk just shows lack of reading thoroughly. I am voting him cause he is fabricating stuff on oats, meta is supportive of my trian of thought not the main argument. So since you just did another terrible forced case, my vote is more than justified. I am striking sloosh of the list for now and adding some others. Ange, DP and OO really should come in and take some stances now Ange has only been asking questions thus far and not been very helpful, DP is playing not as active as I am used to and OO just vanished. None of them strike me as scummy as gk though so my vote stays. I'll be around for a bit, but then off to party so don't even expect me to be around deadline. If this is all Shao has to say then I see no reason to unvote him. He's failed to show how what he perceives to be a "bad case" is in fact "fabricated." The more concerning part is his new "list" (Ange/DP/OO), which more or less magically popped up to mirror thread sentiment. | ||
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On June 22 2013 21:17 raynpelikoneet wrote: Actually (after re-reading), after Hapa writes his "case" on me i'll tell you the following things: 1) Why Hapa and yamato are scum 2) Why marv is town 3) How i play as scum and how i play as town 4) Why i am town and see point #1 I don't see why you'd tell us this, and then sit on said writeup... We have 10 1/2 hours before lynch, and it seems we're nowhere close to coming to some kind of consolidation. If you have some kind of damning super-convincing case on Hapa/Yamato, why not get it out in the open now? | ||
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
I'm sorry all for not being around close to the lynch deadline  .I know that I almost got mislynched for it, and almost turned into a liability. I'll step up my efforts tonight, as this lynch provided LOADS of information for me to look into. On June 23 2013 10:36 slOosh wrote: Everyone take a chill pill. We just lynched scum. Obviously the pool of players we should look into tomorrow is the non DarthPunk voters, since it was an extremely close lynch (which includes goodkarma). It is also very foolish to say we should auto lynch goodkarma - to say that is to say that we split 10 votes between 2 mafia, which is possible, but quite unlikely, and to say this without pause is disconcerting. cora, I don't think you should claim. (** I want to talk about this post game please remind me about this post then **) goodkarma, you have some extra work ahead of you. Don't worry so much about defending yourself as finding suspects amongst your wagon, ok? If we have prot type roles, please prot Ange. She is too cool for school. I'm on it sloosh. I'm going to take a shower, and start writing up a post soon thereafter. Probably have something posted in the next couple hours. | ||
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
Oats and Rayn both clearly were inactive at the time of lynch. So I don't see their lack of consolidation as really alignment indicative. Or I should say that as scum they'd have no motive to proactively lurk through the lynch since scumteam would have done everything in its power to keep DP alive. And as town they'd have no motive for lying about it. I mean it's possible that literally the entire scumteam was inactive, but I find it highly unlikely. And the scumteam would not be trying to form up two scum bandwagons, so I don't understand how after the lynch today anyone can genuinely think that I'm scum... Of those on my bandwagon, I'd say Shao is most likely to flip scum. I've already highlighted why... And I find it troubling that Hapa, who as town in I Swear, more or less considered Shao town for being active early and "having balls," isn't hard on his case here where clearly he is playing a game as a Shao that doesn't give a shit about playing this game. With DP inactive, and Shao inactive, I'd say that scumteam would more or less be forced to try to force my mislynch (specifically), as opposed to other candidates. Then the challenge is to see who specifically seems to have an almost forced changed of heart on their stance on me. Marv comes to mind. His vote post on me isn't entirely out of the blue, but it does feel off. Marv was definitely in a position where he could try to change the vote to a candidate that was neither me nor DP, yet he chose to push my wagon forward. He also has quite a lot to say about Shao, which will be worth looking into should he flip red (which I feel is likely). Corazon has played a pretty active game, yet from what I've seen he has the capability of doing this as scum... I do have one question specifically for him: Corazon, what is your read on Hapa? As for Hapa, it doesn't sit well with me how he seems to still be of such a conviction that I'm scum, when scumteam would have every motivation to push my mislynch over losing DP on day 1. It also doesn't sit well with me how he's spent much of his focus on those that weren't on my wagon, when those specifically on my wagon is really something that deserves a lot of attention. That being said, I've got a lot of filter-diving to do to ascertain whether there is scum motive behind the multiple wagons he tried to push throughout the day. And this is something I'm just not getting to tonight. And finally, there's Adam. There's literally just about nothing I can say of this guy. He just replaced in, so I'm going to carefully look at everything he posts... And in case anyone was wondering: Oats and Rayn I both have pegged as bad townies atm. It more has to do with their willingness to attract so much attention to themselves with some of the things they've done moreso than anything else. All in all, I've got a crapton of stuff to still look at, but I remain convinced that we should lynch Shao tomorrow. | ||
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On June 23 2013 14:38 Hapahauli wrote: @ GK There's really not much in that post I can draw from, but I await to see what you have for us when you catch up. That being said, I want to address one thing: The thing about the DP lynch is that there wasn't much vocal opposition to it. Even players on your wagon (such as marv and I) were perfectly happy to see DP hang. You say that scum wanted to resist the DP wagon and want to do everything in their power to stop it, but where does that resistance come from? For me, the key to figuring out this game is your allignment. If you're town, then players like Adam and Shiao catapult to the top of the lynch list. However you've done very little to demonstrate that you're town, or even care about this game. You posted a case on Shiao and fucked off without having ever pushed it. You've played this game enough that you should definitely understand that saying and doing are two totally different things. Obviously scum are going to say stuff like "this person doesn't look so hot" about a scumbuddy to distance themselves if they're ever considered for lynch. The key here is where they actually place their vote. And if they say their scumbuddy looks scummy while proactively pushing a different wagon. This series of quotes from Marv specifically comes to mind down that avenue: On June 23 2013 07:38 marvellosity wrote: DP was really active early and I'm generally loathe to lynch active players who I know are going to be active in days to come unless I'm really convinced by it. And yes, he's not pushed his lynch(es) very hard and that doesn't look great, but it doesn't look so not-great that I'm convinced by the lynch. goodkarma has defects in that I don't understand his thought process in Oats, and he's pulled a disappearing act. And in contrast to DP, he's not one of those active players I know I'll be able to get a handle on later. GK doesn't have the redeeming feature that during any stage of the game he seemed particularly interested, unlike DP. On June 23 2013 07:41 marvellosity wrote: In short: GK doesn't have redeeming features, DP does. GK *still* isn't here, and yet the lynch is on one of the most active players. People seem to be ok with GK totally fucking off despite professing he wants/needs to consolidate. Why is that ok again? On June 23 2013 07:43 marvellosity wrote: No, because that's not important right now and I don't even understand why you're asking that right now. Can we just lynch GK? Does anyone have a good reason not to? This specifically stood out in my mind when going through the thread. I'd say that Marv hasn't been altogether scummy in his play this game, but there is clear scum motive behind this kind of an active push. And as far as "why weren't you here omg you scum," kind of avenues of thought: You do realize that I wasn't here right? Like you can understand how if I was I would have fought my mislynch? I'm not sure what you're getting at here... This isn't even alignment-indicative. I do indeed sometimes as scum play entirely inactive, but even as scum, why would I just sit there and not try to push some townie mislynch harder, and instead be content with possibly dying (I came pretty close)? You could paint the it was me or DP (with both of us being scum) scenario, but realistically why would scum team be so apathetic day one, when town vote can most easily be swayed, they wouldn't try to at least form some semblance of a townie bandwagon for a mislynch? | ||
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On June 23 2013 14:41 cDgCorazon wrote: I have a town read on Hapa as well. Hapa's been playing a very focused and straightfoward game: he's pursuing his scum reads and promoting active discussion. He also talked me out of lynching Yamato, who looks very townie now. When I unvoiced Yamato, the lynch went from being Yamato to being DP. Scum Hapa would've sat there and allowed me to vote Yamato off. Why would he convince me to switch off of the counter lynch to scum DP? That just does not make sense. Unless this was some sort of crazy bus, I don't see Hapa as a threat. The only way I would see Hapa being a threat is if he survives to D3/D4. I wouldn't see scum letting him live that wrong unless he was completely wrong with his reads. While that was the case in I Sware mafia, I don't think Hapa is the type of player to get reads completely wrong 2 games in a row. Anything else you want to know? The reason I asked was specifically because of this quote: On June 23 2013 05:28 cDgCorazon wrote: I have a strong feeling about DP being town for a couple of reasons: 1. His play has been productive and level-headed for most of the game. He is contributing to discussion and I don't believe he is hiding anything. His play seems very genuine to me and he has been very logical and reasonable in everyone he has analyzed. I don't see anything in his filter that looks scummy to me. 2. There have been a couple points where Hapa has been under fire. Instead of joining the wagon or not saying anything, DP has come out multiple (at least 5 times) to say that a Hapa lynch is a really stupid idea due to Hapa's importance to town. It would be so easy for scum DP to jump on the Hapa lynch train or to just sit out of the way and let a Hapa lynch train form. The fact that he went out of his way to defend Hapa means that he wants to keep Hapa alive for as long as possible, which would be super beneficial to town. The bolded part implies that you very strongly believe Hapa to be town, and is something I suspected might be a scumslip. However, looking at your filter I'm not inclined to believe you've really been suspicious of Hapa all that much, so that might just be your townread of Hapa bleeding through as bias in this quote. On June 23 2013 14:50 cDgCorazon wrote: @GK Has your read on Oats changed since ? Especially after his recent outburst of random bullcrap that he calls scumhunting? Oats has demonstrated he's really good at conjuring up "random bullcrap." The question at hand is whether said bullcrap is scum motivated in any way. I still believe as scum he wouldn't draw attention to himself like this. That being said, I haven't taken the time to discern whether it is or not, and don't plan to tonight for the sake of my sanity. | ||
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
(I highly doubt scum's going to NK me at this point. I mean this should be obvious considering that somehow people think there's a good possibility there were two scumwagons day one...) The three people I'm most suspicious of right now are: Shao, Corazon, Marv Shao for reasons I've already mentioned. Corazon has been wishy-washy for a good portion of the game. His rationale for voting me is literally something along the lines of "there are like 5 lurkers I don't mind killing, so whatevs I'll lynch this one..." Which is pretty shitty reasoning tbh. Especially when considering he in fact agree with me on my points on Oats, meaning (I'd assume) that he didn't find them scummy. And this was a MAJOR basis for many people voting me at the end of the day. In addition to this the lurking thing, which apparently is his major basis. But why would you vote someone so readily that you've been in agreement with solely on the basis of activity? I mean sure you have to consolidate, but it really doesn't make much sense that you would do just about nothing to voice if anyone else at all stood out to you. You should definitely have SOME KIND OF SCUMREAD that has done SOMETHING SCUMMY you mean to voice your suspicions on. Sure lurkers are scummy for lurking, but town also lurk, and you really haven't done anything at all to distinguish between the two... Add to that the strong stance he took on Hapa that I pointed out earlier. I said it wasn't worth consideration, but looking back if he were town I HIGHLY DOUBT he would have taken so much for granted that Hapa was town in that post. It in fact makes more sense that he'd do this as scum, and he knew Hapa's alignment. On top of that he outright says DP is town with a surprising amount of certainty. Sure, that's ballsy for a scum to do, but that doesn't mean he did so as town. This stance in fact is a very out of place one to take as town. Like what townie is going to be so absolutely trusting so early into day one??? Finally there's his last set of reads, which clearly make no sense from a town perspective. I simply can't visualize a townie making the Ange read in particular, given her contributions to getting scum lynched on DAY 1. All in all, this is a guy with a lot of activity who hasn't had a whole lot of stances on who's scum. He's content to suspect lurkers and be pretty wishy-washy on everyone else. Ange in particular he's gone from "possibly Ange" to "probably not Ange let's not consider lynching her even though I think she's scummy" in very short order when pressured about it. Like what kind of townie does that??? The Oats read I could possibly see a townie making, but everything else just doesn't make sense at all to me from a town perspective. Marv, as I've said hasn't been explicitly scummy this game. However, what I said earlier, as well as what Ange has said (which I agree with), demonstrates to me that he should be someone heavily scrutinized. One thing I'd like to add about Marv is just how strangely he seems to behave post-DP lynch. Post-flip you'd think he'd be happy to lynch scum. However, we get this post: On June 23 2013 08:11 marvellosity wrote: Not sure if I feel good or bad  (And yes, you could say that he's happy here and this is totally out of context and bad and blah blah blah, but to me it doesn't feel like the full-fledged kind of "good job town!" post I would have expected. Like as scum, sure you can fake these kinds of things, but you rarely see townies saying stuff like this, if at all. It's either a yay us! kind of post or no post really at all...) And we get this post, which at least to me seems to take a bit of an angry tone: On June 24 2013 01:56 marvellosity wrote: I'm going to say this right now. The thing we must absolutely not do is let players like gk and ShiaoPi slink by through lynches as town wonderfully lynches into active players. Any of you who played or watched Smurf, think about that game and why I'm saying this. Like I can understand how a townie Marv could say something along this line in different circumstances. But in the context of the DP lynch, with DP (who obviously is the one who's being thought of when making this post) honestly not being all that super-active himself, this feels pretty unwarranted. Add to that that literally the only two people in this game right now who should be looked at heavily that fall under the "lurker" category is Shao and possibly me (I guess... like maybe Adam too but he's actually done a good job of being active so far imho), and what we're left with is the very likely possibility that there's at least one other active scum member. And ON TOP of that, it should be pretty obvious if said lurkers are scum if the active players remain active. They'll be that much easier to be townread or scumread because of their activity, and lurky scum will be that much easier to read from process of elimination. People say all the time stuff like, "If you're town then shape up, and if you're scum then whatevs." And that applies here as well. For Marv as town, it doesn't make sense to me how in the context of this flip he would be anything other than very happy with our strong position. Instead, he seems ambivalent about it at best, and continues some kind of crusade to take out all the scummy looking lurkers while giving just about everyone else in the game townreads. In the context of being scum, it makes more sense to me that he'd behave like this. It's pretty apparent that Marv has some kind of very arrogant, high opinion of his play in general, including his scumgame (not entirely unwarranted given his record). I could very easily visualize how Marv, as scum, would behave like this. I'd imagine he'd be pretty livid of his position, given that basically a large number of people that would be easy targets banded together to lynch DP correctly day one. Including Coag, which is something I could really see getting under Marv's skin. And in that context, his behavior here makes more sense to me as scum than it does as town. Sure, this point I've made may seem a little small or nitpicky to some of you, but Marv's play has felt a little off to me. And this is a piece of it that I've seen that makes more sense to me for Marv from a scum rather than a town perspective. The other parts I've mentioned earlier, as well as what Ange has said, has me leaning on Marv being scum. This is taking into consideration much of the posting Marv has done this game has in fact been fairly pro-town in nature. The problem here is the way he's behaved, as well as the CLEAR SCUM MOTIVATION for some of his actions, makes far more sense as scum than as town. And that I believe that Marv would be fully capable of looking pro-town as scum. | ||
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
| ||
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On June 24 2013 04:50 cDgCorazon wrote: Are you serious? Did you really just call me wishy-washy? I've had 2 main scum reads, and I did not back down off of them really easily. I've been suspicious of Oats since like 20 minutes into the game, and I was suspicious of Yamato and argued back and forth with him and Hapa until Hapa convinced me that I was wrong about my read. When it came down to who to vote for, I chose between someone I strongly believed was town and someone I wasn't sure about. Regarding Hapa, I really believe he is town. I've made multiple posts saying so and giving legitimate reasons why. Did you read them? It's really hard to me to not doubt you here because while I was caring about the lynch and making active choices, you threw your vote down on someone who wasn't getting lynched and said "Hey guys, I'm out, peace". How is that scum hunting? I've done a lot more scumhunting than you have. Your read on me looks just like you are butthurt from my vote on you and you're just trying to put pressure on an easy target. You're not even doing what Ange did. She used it for discussion, while you are using it as the basis of your argument. You realize how scummy that looks? Of course it looks really terrible that I defended DP with a lot of confidence. Anyone with half a brain as scum would see that I would make a good lynch target due to my vote. Being wrong doesn't make me scum, bro. Try again. You may have taken some stances earlier in the game, but near the deadline and for everything thereafter, you've been running to the same tune of let's lynch lurkers and been pretty much wishy-washy about any other scumreads (except maybe Oats). I assumed that was clear when writing my case, but apparently it wasn't. | ||
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On June 24 2013 06:03 cDgCorazon wrote: Please read my filter and tell me where I championed a lurker lynch. Your vote post I would say. Sure, you talked about other people up to that point, but in the end lurker lynch. On June 23 2013 07:11 cDgCorazon wrote: I really feel like DP lynch would be really terrible so I would go for any other option besides DP. GK is in that list of people who have played subpar and I would be up for his lynch. Right now there is a clusterfuck of people who have played like this. Might as well get rid of one of them now (as Hapa said). ##Unvote ##Vote: Goodkarma And right now, we have this. Maybe Oats, and lurker lynch (because apparently you really didn't mean Ange, even though this is clearly a list-type post with three elements...) On June 24 2013 00:06 cDgCorazon wrote: You. Perhaps Ange, as it would be really easy for scum to cast doubt on me and push for my lynch D2. That got me really suspicious. The third one is probably in one of the lurkers and semi-lurkers (GK/ShiaoPi/Coag/OO/SloOsh and others I'm probably forgetting). Lurkers are definitely something you have no problem lynching, and there are FAR TOO MANY lurkers on that list for all of them to be scum, making that point kinda out-right meaningless since you're not taking any kind of stance there on which ones actually are scum... | ||
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On June 24 2013 04:55 Hapahauli wrote: @ GoodKarma Regarding Cora There are a lot of things I could say about his play, but wishy-washy isn't one of them. Also his reasoning for voting you was pretty much "I think DP is super-town, I will vote anyone except for him"(...which isn't any better, but it isn't what you represent it to be ("lololol there are 5 lurkers let's go and kill GK"). Regarding Shaio One of the reasons that I'm skeptical of your push is along the lines of what Ange said a couple of pages back: From last game, we know the guy is capable of playing an active and engaged scumgame. So why revert to this passive/lurky play? Also, are you sure this passive play of his is exclusive to his scum-games as opposed to his town-games? I already discussed the Cora portion with Cora. As far as Shao goes, yes he played as scum last game in a way substantially different from this one. Specifically, he was more active. But the games before that he apparently played differently enough from that that you couldn't spot him as scum. Why do you think he couldn't have changed his scumplay yet again here? I have trouble understanding how as town Shao would be this trollish and unproductive. And on top of all the scummy things he's done, his vote on me and afk is behavior that could be clearly scum-motivated. I haven't worked towards establishing a meta-case on Shao. If he can change his scumgame so much with last game, who's to say he hasn't done it again here? I'm really not factoring meta at all in my Shao case and solely focusing on possible scum motivation behind his actions. As for if I'd prioritize lynching him over others, when most likely at least one scum is likely an active player, I'd say we should be able to find said active scum. There's certainly enough information out there from everything that happened day one that I'm confident this game should soon be completely solvable. It might be possible that somehow Shao is this trollish and useless as town. Although I still don't believe this is the case, I do believe it more prudent to figure out of the active players who's town and who's scum first. And after that we can truly determine whether Shao's scum based on process of elimination. | ||
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On June 24 2013 06:26 Hapahauli wrote: GK, it really looks like you're mis-representing Cora's vote on you. From the very post you quoted... The lurker lynch seems like a post-justification for his vote. He had a town-read on DP and didn't want to see him lynched. Whether or not that read on DP is scummy is a subject for another debate, but it is what it is. Also, why do you care about list posts? List posts are non-alignment indicative. I have my reasons to be suspicious of Cora, but all the reasons you're coming up with aren't very robust. If you're referring to his lurker lynch post he made not too long ago I referenced, it doesn't sit well with me that half those people were on the DP wagon, and he doesn't even make any kind of note of it. He doesn't work to differentiate between them at all, and just makes some kind of blanket statement that he's okay with lynching into them. And that is scummy. | ||
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On June 24 2013 06:51 Hapahauli wrote: There's some very objectionable analysis in this paragraph. The argument that he changed his scum-play for the worse isn't very compelling. I can point to several of his town games where he acts just like this. In fact, Mafia LXII comes to mind - a game that you both played in. I'm surprised at the lack of sympathy you have for the "afk" thing, given that you used it in your own defense earlier this game and was afk for a good portion of this game yourself. 1) (Shao made his scumplay "worse;" I would just say if scum here he made is scumgame different): If indeed he's played like this as town, then fitting into his town meta wouldn't exactly be subpar as scum would it? 2)I was scum with Shao last game, and scum with him very briefly in Rockband before replacing out. He was town and I was scum in LVII, and he was in fact productive there and not this troll you've seen him be... And as far as I can remember, that's it. I certainly never played in LXII, and if you were to check my profile you'd know that... The point here is he clearly has different playstyles as town and different playstyles as scum, so exactly why are you trying so hard to meta-analyze him? 3) The afk around lynch-time specifically is not necessarily alignment-indicative. That he refuses to pop back in here and share reads of any kind, even after clearly being around enough to troll, is scummy as fuck. | ||
|
goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On June 24 2013 07:14 marvellosity wrote: Shiao didn't play Rockband dear That was Hiro sorry my bad. Hopefully he doesn't modkill me for mistaking him for Shao O.O | ||
| ||
