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I Swear This Is Normal Mini Mafia - Page 70

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25562 Posts
June 15 2013 18:16 GMT
#1381
Definitely some premium tier scum play this game. Worth a podcast imo.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Oatsmaster
Profile Joined October 2012
United States16628 Posts
June 15 2013 18:22 GMT
#1382
if we do it at a good time, I could actually talk !!!
BH is jelly of good scum play
No gg, No skill.
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31495 Posts
June 15 2013 18:39 GMT
#1383
On June 16 2013 03:10 Hapahauli wrote:
wanna podcast this one? Some interesting things to say about good scum-play and town atmosphere

I'd join up if it's at a time where I can.
I wasn't sure if this one would make a good podcast game though.
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
Dandel Ion
Profile Joined November 2010
Austria17960 Posts
June 15 2013 18:43 GMT
#1384
On June 16 2013 03:12 ShiaoPi wrote:
there is a podcast for mafia?

Not exactly, there is a podcast for town.
A backwards poet writes inverse.
ShiaoPi
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
June 15 2013 18:49 GMT
#1385
On June 16 2013 03:43 Dandel Ion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2013 03:12 ShiaoPi wrote:
there is a podcast for mafia?

Not exactly, there is a podcast for town.

I was talking about Mafia as in the entire game. So podcast for discussing TL Mafia related things?
LiquidDota Staff@TW_ShiaoPi
TL+ Member
Dandel Ion
Profile Joined November 2010
Austria17960 Posts
June 15 2013 18:54 GMT
#1386
I was joking.

I sometimes do that.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=400994
A backwards poet writes inverse.
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25562 Posts
June 15 2013 18:55 GMT
#1387
On June 16 2013 03:49 ShiaoPi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 16 2013 03:43 Dandel Ion wrote:
On June 16 2013 03:12 ShiaoPi wrote:
there is a podcast for mafia?

Not exactly, there is a podcast for town.

I was talking about Mafia as in the entire game. So podcast for discussing TL Mafia related things?


The thread is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=400994

After a game ends, sometimes people get together and do a podcast, recorded and uploaded usually be either Hapahauli or me.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31495 Posts
June 15 2013 19:09 GMT
#1388
On June 16 2013 03:54 Dandel Ion wrote:
I was joking.

I sometimes do that.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=400994

I don't know why you'd lie like that.
You're the seriousest guy I know.
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
ShiaoPi
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
June 15 2013 19:10 GMT
#1389
I feel trolled
Well time to check that thread out :D
LiquidDota Staff@TW_ShiaoPi
TL+ Member
Stutters695
Profile Joined July 2012
2610 Posts
June 15 2013 22:36 GMT
#1390
I'd like to hear a podcast on this. Still bummed I missed that n1 rb, perils of working through the deadline I guess lol.
goodkarma
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1067 Posts
June 16 2013 02:02 GMT
#1391
Well, anywho, I figured I'd outline some of my thoughts on this game.

Without a doubt Axle (especially) and Shao did some of the heavy lifting for scumteam this game. But I definitely believe that my scumgame also had its place on the team.


"Replacement" Shenannies

I definitely did make a point of "milking" my status as replacement. I bet that Marv comes in here and says that's unsportsmanlike, but it was definitely the right move as far as I was concerned. I replaced in at night, and immediately I had identified Hapa as the only real threat to getting me lynched early. BH I felt would be sore from misreading me last game. And everyone else I felt wouldn't be taking the lead in determining who should be lynched, especially with Axle and Shao looking so "townie." As such, I knew that when Hapa had been removed I'd be in a spot of relative safety.


And as for Oats's suspicions of me from my first post, I was never really worried that he'd get me lynched. He may have been right about me, but I felt it was for the wrong reasons. To be sure I probably would have had reads out sooner, but my first post would have been the same regardless of alignment. And what's more, if he was serious about lynching me he should have been at the very least spamming his case in addition to saying I should be killed a bajillion times. I'm under the impression that town kind of lost sight of why Oats wanted me dead so bad, and what that meant is he kind of came off as a bit of a mad-man.

As for his case, it literally came down to "omg your first post," which certainly wasn't that hot. But I hadn't read the game, only skimmed it. And as a replacement I felt compelled to full-read it before taking any real stances. Like that is something I would have done regardless of alignment. I'll definitely try to keep up with any game I might replace into in the future so that such shenanies don't occur again.



Soft Pushing BH Mislynch:

Because of how handily cheesed town was this game, people seem to overlook the implications of looking super-townie for scum after a mislynch or two. Like town tends to be pretty emotional and fickle, and will easily turn on you the moment it's clear that you were steering a mislynch. While Axle and Shao were pushing their own wagons, I made a cute little case on BH and sat my vote on him. When it became clear that no one cared to move their votes around to prevent the mislynch, I decided to sit there and literally afk lurk from thread.

I felt BH looked townie enough that he shouldn't be mislynched close to the end of the day cycle, and as such I just let it happen. It was far easier in my mind to lurk it out, than to explain how I actively pushed a mislynch the next day. I mean it was pretty clear the results were the same. The main objective I had as scum was to see to it that the town was lacking any kind of leadership ability whatsoever, so while BH was playing pretty poorly, I was moreso worried about the discussion he could draw than of any of his actual analysis (if that makes any sense).


Post-BH Lynch: Setting myself up for possible Bus and Buddying Vayne

It was pretty clear that the game was almost, if not already won, at this point. However, I was aware that if night actions went the wrong way things could fall apart. I made the decision to bus Shao a bit, as I was pretty certain that if it came to choosing between the two of us I'd probably get lynched. And Shao would come off as looking very townie in the process. If somehow we didn't get mayor the next day, "town cred" was (even at the expense of me) all our scumteam needed, because if we ever got mayorship town would be changed from a LYLO situation to a losing situation. In the scenario where it lasted another day (without us getting mayor), I felt getting me lynched was a way to secure the mayorship.

In the background, I was thinking of NK'ing Oats that night. He was not really a threat as far as getting us lynched, but then again he did look townie and kept talking. Above all else, I wanted a lurky-town without direction, so he seemed like a reasonable target. But then we saw in-game Syl came out with that great post calling all of us out. On top of that, he in-thread suggested he wasn't a vanilla-townie. We took this to mean he was blue, but turned out he was 3P... We had a big argument in scum QT over whether he was RB-er lol. Thankfully, Stutters RB'ed him for us though it really didn't even matter if our shot went through.

And with Vayne, it was pretty clear he'd be an easy mislynch the next day. If anyone were to look at his prior townplay, it's pretty obvious he isn't the most transparent guy with his thoughts and actions. He definitely wasn't playing stellar this game, but if you compare this game to his scumgame, you really should have been asking yourself if he'd attract attention to himself the way he did. The Oats shot was especially bad, but kind of a towntell in some ways. Like he could easily have asked for more town feedback, and taken an opportune shot as scum. And in the process, looked a little less suspicious. The big thing though, is there were no counter-claims to his cop claim. And sure he could have faked it, but why would you take the chance when you haven't flipped any scum yet? Like it was pretty much LYLO, so if you don't get everything right you're finished anyway. So why not seek to lynch the other scum first, and see if the RB-er even exists?

As town, people tend to suspect those that suspect them. This is a bit subpar imho, but it is something that happens just as an emotional aspect of this game. As such, I figured I might as well suggest Vayne wasn't a good target. Going against thread sentiment in that way I felt made me look townier. And on top of that, lynching Vayne was flat-out bad given the circumstances. It kind of surprised me how much town wanted him lynched tbh.

I mean hate on my lurkish scum-play all you want, but in the end I somehow came off as townie enough at least to Vayne to get the mayorship and effectively end the game day 3. I also had WoS fooled, which doesn't really surprise me given that he has some lowly opinion of me as "lynchbait" which I fully exploited this game. I also "townread" Stutters a bit because it felt natural to do so (I mean I do this a lot with him). Honestly, though, his early play really didn't warrant it. It came down to choosing my enemies. I didn't want to go down hard on too many townies, and townreading a few definitely helped me make enough friends to survive until the end of the game.


Regarding Our Overall Scumplay:

Syl was able to spot our whole scumteam. What that should show to all of town is that we were definitely all spot-able. There was a profound degree of bias running in this game, as in people would set in their mind who was town and never reassess their reads. Most notable here is Axle, who everyone seemed to believe was town. The lesson that should be learned here is that effortfulness =/= towniness. Like Axle spent pretty much half the game half-heartedly pushing Wave, and no one seemed to care... He asked a lot of questions, but never really seemed to spend a whole lot of time actually pushing a case. This was pretty much exactly what Syl was saying, and it was spot-on.

Shao also had some pretty telling moments. Last-minute voting a candidate that had literally zero chance of getting lynched was certainly one of them... As was how wishy-washy he was in taking a stance on me. But more telling than any of that in my mind was activity. Axle and Shao were both guilty of this: post-day one they posted far less content. Which if they were paragons of town makes no sense, since town needed them more than ever at that point. They literally coasted by on day one reputation for most of the game.

That's not to downplay their scumgames, they were incredible.


Anyway, those are my thoughts. Thanks to the hosts for putting up with scumteam submitting day 2 actions three times (lol), for putting up with my wishy-washyness in replacing in, and for putting together a fun game
And thanks to my scumpals for playing such crazy good scumgames <3
goodkarma
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1067 Posts
June 16 2013 02:07 GMT
#1392
And as a side-note:

I'm aware of how objectively scummy much of my play was, and how someone like Hapa and Marv could have easily spotted it and come down on me. But I had in consideration that such strong scumhunters weren't in the game, so I could get away with playing in this kind of way.

No doubt next time I play scum it will be a little different.


But I am a little frustrated with how difficult it's seemed to be for town to win in recent history so maybe this post will provide some insight for you guys. Honestly, I much prefer playing town to playing scum as I enjoy solving the puzzle of who's scum moreso than deceiving people (something I really don't like to do at all). Although, I'd be lying if I said I didn't get at least a little satisfaction out of beating 2/3 the scumteam that trounced me in Les Mafia
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31495 Posts
June 16 2013 04:26 GMT
#1393
On June 16 2013 11:07 goodkarma wrote:
And as a side-note:

I'm aware of how objectively scummy much of my play was, and how someone like Hapa and Marv could have easily spotted it and come down on me. But I had in consideration that such strong scumhunters weren't in the game, so I could get away with playing in this kind of way.

No doubt next time I play scum it will be a little different.


But I am a little frustrated with how difficult it's seemed to be for town to win in recent history so maybe this post will provide some insight for you guys. Honestly, I much prefer playing town to playing scum as I enjoy solving the puzzle of who's scum moreso than deceiving people (something I really don't like to do at all). Although, I'd be lying if I said I didn't get at least a little satisfaction out of beating 2/3 the scumteam that trounced me in Les Mafia

I think I said this before somewhere, but <3 GK.
I look forward to playing many a game with you in the future.
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
Oatsmaster
Profile Joined October 2012
United States16628 Posts
June 16 2013 04:56 GMT
#1394
Man GK, this is what all the scum players says when they get really under pressure off 1 post.
To be sure I probably would have had reads out sooner, but my first post would have been the same regardless of alignment

I dont think this is true, but keep believing that I guess.

The reason why I didnt really post a case is cause everyone was being like, NOPE GK TOWN. Especially BH, who I felt was the one with the most influence with town.
No gg, No skill.
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-16 05:21:49
June 16 2013 05:19 GMT
#1395
Oats, just because GK was scum doesn't mean you were correct.

It was a first post. You had a 25% chance of being correct. Nothing about what we were saying on Day 1 about it was it "NOPE GK TOWN". His post was null.

Though to be fair, I probably would have shot him when I saw his 2nd post :3
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Oatsmaster
Profile Joined October 2012
United States16628 Posts
June 16 2013 05:46 GMT
#1396
25% chance?
His post was not null.
It was the mindset of someone trying to play very carefully. and therefore is scum.
No gg, No skill.
Aquanim
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia2849 Posts
June 16 2013 06:27 GMT
#1397
Quick reminder: y'all might want to put the link to the endgame in the OP and post in the Active Games thread. Just a thought
AxleGreaser
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia1154 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-16 16:02:54
June 16 2013 11:46 GMT
#1398
On June 16 2013 11:02 goodkarma wrote:
Well, anywho, I figured I'd outline some of my thoughts on this game.

Without a doubt Axle (especially) and Shao did some of the heavy lifting for scumteam this game. But I definitely believe that my scumgame also had its place on the team.

+ Show Spoiler [Good Stuff] +

"Replacement" Shenannies

I definitely did make a point of "milking" my status as replacement. I bet that Marv comes in here and says that's unsportsmanlike, but it was definitely the right move as far as I was concerned. I replaced in at night, and immediately I had identified Hapa as the only real threat to getting me lynched early. BH I felt would be sore from misreading me last game. And everyone else I felt wouldn't be taking the lead in determining who should be lynched, especially with Axle and Shao looking so "townie." As such, I knew that when Hapa had been removed I'd be in a spot of relative safety.


And as for Oats's suspicions of me from my first post, I was never really worried that he'd get me lynched. He may have been right about me, but I felt it was for the wrong reasons. To be sure I probably would have had reads out sooner, but my first post would have been the same regardless of alignment. And what's more, if he was serious about lynching me he should have been at the very least spamming his case in addition to saying I should be killed a bajillion times. I'm under the impression that town kind of lost sight of why Oats wanted me dead so bad, and what that meant is he kind of came off as a bit of a mad-man.

As for his case, it literally came down to "omg your first post," which certainly wasn't that hot. But I hadn't read the game, only skimmed it. And as a replacement I felt compelled to full-read it before taking any real stances. Like that is something I would have done regardless of alignment. I'll definitely try to keep up with any game I might replace into in the future so that such shenanies don't occur again.



Soft Pushing BH Mislynch:

Because of how handily cheesed town was this game, people seem to overlook the implications of looking super-townie for scum after a mislynch or two. Like town tends to be pretty emotional and fickle, and will easily turn on you the moment it's clear that you were steering a mislynch. While Axle and Shao were pushing their own wagons, I made a cute little case on BH and sat my vote on him. When it became clear that no one cared to move their votes around to prevent the mislynch, I decided to sit there and literally afk lurk from thread.

I felt BH looked townie enough that he shouldn't be mislynched close to the end of the day cycle, and as such I just let it happen. It was far easier in my mind to lurk it out, than to explain how I actively pushed a mislynch the next day. I mean it was pretty clear the results were the same. The main objective I had as scum was to see to it that the town was lacking any kind of leadership ability whatsoever, so while BH was playing pretty poorly, I was moreso worried about the discussion he could draw than of any of his actual analysis (if that makes any sense).


Post-BH Lynch: Setting myself up for possible Bus and Buddying Vayne

It was pretty clear that the game was almost, if not already won, at this point. However, I was aware that if night actions went the wrong way things could fall apart. I made the decision to bus Shao a bit, as I was pretty certain that if it came to choosing between the two of us I'd probably get lynched. And Shao would come off as looking very townie in the process. If somehow we didn't get mayor the next day, "town cred" was (even at the expense of me) all our scumteam needed, because if we ever got mayorship town would be changed from a LYLO situation to a losing situation. In the scenario where it lasted another day (without us getting mayor), I felt getting me lynched was a way to secure the mayorship.

In the background, I was thinking of NK'ing Oats that night. He was not really a threat as far as getting us lynched, but then again he did look townie and kept talking. Above all else, I wanted a lurky-town without direction, so he seemed like a reasonable target. But then we saw in-game Syl came out with that great post calling all of us out. On top of that, he in-thread suggested he wasn't a vanilla-townie. We took this to mean he was blue, but turned out he was 3P... We had a big argument in scum QT over whether he was RB-er lol. Thankfully, Stutters RB'ed him for us though it really didn't even matter if our shot went through.

And with Vayne, it was pretty clear he'd be an easy mislynch the next day. If anyone were to look at his prior townplay, it's pretty obvious he isn't the most transparent guy with his thoughts and actions. He definitely wasn't playing stellar this game, but if you compare this game to his scumgame, you really should have been asking yourself if he'd attract attention to himself the way he did. The Oats shot was especially bad, but kind of a towntell in some ways. Like he could easily have asked for more town feedback, and taken an opportune shot as scum. And in the process, looked a little less suspicious. The big thing though, is there were no counter-claims to his cop claim. And sure he could have faked it, but why would you take the chance when you haven't flipped any scum yet? Like it was pretty much LYLO, so if you don't get everything right you're finished anyway. So why not seek to lynch the other scum first, and see if the RB-er even exists?

As town, people tend to suspect those that suspect them. This is a bit subpar imho, but it is something that happens just as an emotional aspect of this game. As such, I figured I might as well suggest Vayne wasn't a good target. Going against thread sentiment in that way I felt made me look townier. And on top of that, lynching Vayne was flat-out bad given the circumstances. It kind of surprised me how much town wanted him lynched tbh.

I mean hate on my lurkish scum-play all you want, but in the end I somehow came off as townie enough at least to Vayne to get the mayorship and effectively end the game day 3. I also had WoS fooled, which doesn't really surprise me given that he has some lowly opinion of me as "lynchbait" which I fully exploited this game. I also "townread" Stutters a bit because it felt natural to do so (I mean I do this a lot with him). Honestly, though, his early play really didn't warrant it. It came down to choosing my enemies. I didn't want to go down hard on too many townies, and townreading a few definitely helped me make enough friends to survive until the end of the game.


Regarding Our Overall Scumplay:

Syl was able to spot our whole scumteam. What that should show to all of town is that we were definitely all spot-able. There was a profound degree of bias running in this game, as in people would set in their mind who was town and never reassess their reads. Most notable here is Axle, who everyone seemed to believe was town. The lesson that should be learned here is that effortfulness =/= towniness. Like Axle spent pretty much half the game half-heartedly pushing Wave, and no one seemed to care... He asked a lot of questions, but never really seemed to spend a whole lot of time actually pushing a case. This was pretty much exactly what Syl was saying, and it was spot-on.

Shao also had some pretty telling moments. Last-minute voting a candidate that had literally zero chance of getting lynched was certainly one of them... As was how wishy-washy he was in taking a stance on me. But more telling than any of that in my mind was activity. Axle and Shao were both guilty of this: post-day one they posted far less content. Which if they were paragons of town makes no sense, since town needed them more than ever at that point. They literally coasted by on day one reputation for most of the game.

That's not to downplay their scumgames, they were incredible.


Anyway, those are my thoughts. Thanks to the hosts for putting up with scumteam submitting day 2 actions three times (lol), for putting up with my wishy-washyness in replacing in, and for putting together a fun game
And thanks to my scumpals for playing such crazy good scumgames <3



The game has still been running (wifoming) around in my head since it ended. and i had noticed an omission on my part.
I got up to here(above the spoiler) and thought yes(because I wanted place to post this post).

and the thought I had was oops, GK... our Glorious in victory mayor.... So yeah you had place on our team..
You were our GoodKarma scum Mayor

Not everybody on every team does the same job. Even if one of us had bussed the other two, its not the one guy alive at the end that did it. it might be the one guy that saw they were going down early enough and positioned the others to ride it.


+ Show Spoiler [lame excuses] +

Why I forgot at the end. During D1 I kept jamming in my head, omg must nominate that D1 case.
Then that loooong wait then gush. So sorry GK.
We didn't talk about that stuff you posted above during the game, I was mainly just hoping youd do Ok, but .... errr ... wow.
With scum buddies like you not flipping and hence zero linkages, distancing, ...

Axle(OnlySomeTheoriesToAbsurdToBeConsidered)Greaser
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
June 16 2013 11:50 GMT
#1399
You milk your replacement status all you like GK, because it's on town to hold you to a standard, not yourself. Probably you can understand the difference between that and the other thing ^_^

I also don't think it's been difficult for town to win recently. Scum winning a few games doesn't mean towns are in a crisis.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25562 Posts
June 16 2013 12:00 GMT
#1400
Moral of the story BH was obv town, clearly cagyuth like 90 scums then got mislynched hue
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
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