EPTCarnival Cruise Mafia - Page 38
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Vivax
22408 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
On May 15 2013 02:48 raynpelikoneet wrote: VE: What do you think of Oats' list? Anything you don't agree with in there? I can see some things that are plain out wrong just by reading the thread. I mean, aside from it being slightly summarize-y, which is to be expected considering he was asked for thoughts on EVERY player, it at least gives reads of most of the players. Like if there were a lot more null reads and wifflewaffle then I'd be more concerned. Obviously there's something specific you don't like, was there something I should be looking at? To me it looks like a genuine attempt to put his thoughts in the thread, done by request. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
On May 15 2013 02:53 Vivax wrote: Kush looks pretty bad, too. His amount of activity and "STANK" posts (thx VE) is suspiciously low. Kush hardly ever comes with any stank regardless of alignment. Take that for what it's worth. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
On May 15 2013 02:57 VisceraEyes wrote: I mean, aside from it being slightly summarize-y, which is to be expected considering he was asked for thoughts on EVERY player, it at least gives reads of most of the players. Like if there were a lot more null reads and wifflewaffle then I'd be more concerned. Obviously there's something specific you don't like, was there something I should be looking at? To me it looks like a genuine attempt to put his thoughts in the thread, done by request. Especially his reasoning for his read on me, chaoser and prpl. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
I find it noteworthy that WoS's posts (at least at first) were trying to cause collateral damage rather than hunt scum. I believe it was Vivax(?) who pointed out that when WoS was close to death as town, he was accepting of it and tried to crank out as much analysis as he could. Where is that WoS, the town WoS? I admit that he has begun waffling on me instead of just blandly calling me scum, but I wouldn't count this as a legitimate point in his favor. I'm playing poorly, WoS? Everything I've done has been well-reasoned and thought out. If you think my thought process is flawed, that's fine-- show me where. If you think my prior assumptions or my observations are flawed, that's also fine-- show me where. As for statements that I'm being trolly and aggressive as I was in The Game as scum, I'm going to take a moment now to address those. First off, I am generally a wordy and much-posting aggressive player regardless of alignment. In The Game I used a lot of spam and insults to ruin the town atmosphere, and I understand that any aggression from me might be interpreted through that lens. That being said, aggression for me is a key method for how I hunt scum. Many players who have occupied observer QTs with me have noted that my ability to hunt scum from an Obs QT is really bad. Why is that? Well, a lot of how I play involves, yes, prodding people aggressively and gauging their responses. WoS responded to a push not with trying to figure out what's going on, or discern my alignment, and he definitely didn't respond until he was told to with trying to refine and post reads and help the town. He responded with OMGUS (that he backtracked when he realized it wasn't working), he responded with flames, he responded with general unhelpfulness and damage control for his potential associative tells. I'll admit, at the beginning of the push I was not 100% confident WoS was scum. Now? I am. /dunked | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
I would not policy Kush D1. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On May 15 2013 03:07 Blazinghand wrote: Blanket inactivity (as in BM who literally hasn't posted) is not on its own a scumtell. these guys will probably be replaced and modkilled anyways. I find it noteworthy that WoS's posts (at least at first) were trying to cause collateral damage rather than hunt scum. I believe it was Vivax(?) who pointed out that when WoS was close to death as town, he was accepting of it and tried to crank out as much analysis as he could. Where is that WoS, the town WoS? I admit that he has begun waffling on me instead of just blandly calling me scum, but I wouldn't count this as a legitimate point in his favor. I'm playing poorly, WoS? Everything I've done has been well-reasoned and thought out. If you think my thought process is flawed, that's fine-- show me where. If you think my prior assumptions or my observations are flawed, that's also fine-- show me where. As for statements that I'm being trolly and aggressive as I was in The Game as scum, I'm going to take a moment now to address those. First off, I am generally a wordy and much-posting aggressive player regardless of alignment. In The Game I used a lot of spam and insults to ruin the town atmosphere, and I understand that any aggression from me might be interpreted through that lens. That being said, aggression for me is a key method for how I hunt scum. Many players who have occupied observer QTs with me have noted that my ability to hunt scum from an Obs QT is really bad. Why is that? Well, a lot of how I play involves, yes, prodding people aggressively and gauging their responses. WoS responded to a push not with trying to figure out what's going on, or discern my alignment, and he definitely didn't respond until he was told to with trying to refine and post reads and help the town. He responded with OMGUS (that he backtracked when he realized it wasn't working), he responded with flames, he responded with general unhelpfulness and damage control for his potential associative tells. I'll admit, at the beginning of the push I was not 100% confident WoS was scum. Now? I am. /dunked See this is how I know you're playing poorly. You STILL haven't responded to me and have ignored my attempts to figure you out so much that you pretend they don't even exist. On May 14 2013 03:53 WaveofShadow wrote: Answer my question though, BH. Knowing I have never played scum before at all and knowing what you know about me from past games. Do you honestly think your analysis of me is correct? Because if you do then you MUST be scum because I know you're better than that. Go on, bro. Dunk me. I'm even helping you along a little! Garner yourself those few more votes if you can. Me, I'ma be doing helpful things. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
also, you're literally troling this game and not trying to solve it. It's not a damn meta case that you're being a useless omgusing flamer instead of helpful. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
What are your thoughts regarding VE and Oats' suspicion of him (dropped it once again after thinking he looked scummy without VE having posted anything in between). I like the case on Oats and since he still hasn't shown up to be useful like I want him to, I'm comfortable voting him. I'm less comfortable with the knowledge that there are scum on my wagon; the problem is I don't know which they are (not that anyone has listened to any push of mine thus far anyway). I'll hold off my change of vote for a little while though and give BH a sporting chance to try to cook up 5 more people (or however many it is with the Oats vote-stealing thing) since he doesn't seem to want to attempt anything other than be useless and tunnel me all day. If he can't get them soon I move my vote to OO and he'll have to find another person. CHALLENGE ON | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On May 15 2013 03:33 Blazinghand wrote: the fact that you've never played scum before is meaningless. it's not like your less likely to roll scum now because you haven't before. also, you're literally troling this game and not trying to solve it. It's not a damn meta case that you're being a useless omgusing flamer instead of helpful. That's totally the answer to the question I asked! Thanks BH! Nope clearly not trying to solve the game at all. You've got me! /dunked | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
you can't just use a bunch of sarcasm and claim you've been helpful already then put together a post like this On May 15 2013 03:37 WaveofShadow wrote: @Rayn I like your play this game so much more than other games I've been in with you and it almost worries me. I don't think you could be anything but town atm though. What are your thoughts regarding VE and Oats' suspicion of him (dropped it once again after thinking he looked scummy without VE having posted anything in between). I like the case on Oats and since he still hasn't shown up to be useful like I want him to, I'm comfortable voting him. I'm less comfortable with the knowledge that there are scum on my wagon; the problem is I don't know which they are (not that anyone has listened to any push of mine thus far anyway). I'll hold off my change of vote for a little while though and give BH a sporting chance to try to cook up 5 more people (or however many it is with the Oats vote-stealing thing) since he doesn't seem to want to attempt anything other than be useless and tunnel me all day. If he can't get them soon I move my vote to OO and he'll have to find another person. CHALLENGE ON and say "yes i have been helping all along look at how helpful I am" come on man nobody's gonna fall for that | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
Widen your gaze a little bit. Who else is scum? Who knows...maybe if so.eone agrees with ur further targets they'll be more inclined to vote with you today. OR maybe you'll find someone else is a better target. Like VayneAuthprity for instance. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
On May 15 2013 03:37 WaveofShadow wrote: @Rayn I like your play this game so much more than other games I've been in with you and it almost worries me. I don't think you could be anything but town atm though. What are your thoughts regarding VE and Oats' suspicion of him (dropped it once again after thinking he looked scummy without VE having posted anything in between). I like the case on Oats and since he still hasn't shown up to be useful like I want him to, I'm comfortable voting him. I'm less comfortable with the knowledge that there are scum on my wagon; the problem is I don't know which they are (not that anyone has listened to any push of mine thus far anyway). I'll hold off my change of vote for a little while though and give BH a sporting chance to try to cook up 5 more people (or however many it is with the Oats vote-stealing thing) since he doesn't seem to want to attempt anything other than be useless and tunnel me all day. If he can't get them soon I move my vote to OO and he'll have to find another person. CHALLENGE ON I don't like VE atm. Particularly because he called Oats' list "interesting". That says nothing and he has yet to answer my question about it. I totally misread VE last game at first, i need to interact more with him to form a read on him. That's what i'm doing atm. As i said earlier, i like Oats as lynch (although atm i prefer OO). His list contains some weird stuff that's plain out wrong or the conclusions are odd. Other than that his play does not seem like usual Oats town play. I don't think his 180 on VE is a scumtell though, he does that much as town. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
On May 15 2013 03:44 VisceraEyes wrote: Omg you two. BH the more this goes on the more I start to dubt my read of you. :/ Widen your gaze a little bit. Who else is scum? Who knows...maybe if so.eone agrees with ur further targets they'll be more inclined to vote with you today. OR maybe you'll find someone else is a better target. Like VayneAuthprity for instance. Your read of me is not relevant to whether or not WoS is scum. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On May 15 2013 03:48 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't like VE atm. Particularly because he called Oats' list "interesting". That says nothing and he has yet to answer my question about it. I totally misread VE last game at first, i need to interact more with him to form a read on him. That's what i'm doing atm. As i said earlier, i like Oats as lynch (although atm i prefer OO). His list contains some weird stuff that's plain out wrong or the conclusions are odd. Other than that his play does not seem like usual Oats town play. I don't think his 180 on VE is a scumtell though, he does that much as town. I'm trying overall to understand why people may have townreads of Oats especially because of the stuff I pointed out earlier when talking with Prom. You believe a quick 180 is characteristic of a town Oats rather than scum? Doe that also explain is quick 180 read on me? What things do you find odd about Oats? VE you're not mad enough this game. Get mad about something. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On May 14 2013 15:00 VayneAuthority wrote: how can I parrot some one when I spoke first? You are getting real suspicious with messing so many facts up and switching around on so many bandwagons. one second you are voting with me on prplhz the next second you're going ballistic on me for voting him. make up your mind and get your facts straight. Other people are saying you are playing differently as well so I keeping an eye on you from now on. Still waiting for your reply viscera. Interesting how you are telling BH to stop tunneling while you are now tunneling me. What makes me scum and who are my scumbuddies VE? | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
VA I have no idea why you think prplhz is scum. There isn't even enough in his filter to go on. Do you find anyone else scummy this game? Me? OO? Oats? | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
guess i need to be more like bh if i want people to talk about my arguments Anyway I'm gonna do something else so I dont just tunnel him for all of time question for shirokami: I see you posting a bunch of one-liners about how you agree with bh's case on wos. Could you give me your second best scum read and why? Or maybe read someone else's case on their scumread and tell me why they are wrong? Same question for vayneauthority except with wos replaced by prplhz. Responding to a question asked of me: On May 14 2013 09:07 WaveofShadow wrote: Funny pic is always +1 to town in my book. y u no vote Oats, SnB? I generally don't like to vote until I'm pretty serious about killing someone. I'd like for some more people to tell me what they think about Oats before I decide whether to commit to voting him. My opinion on someone else that has votes on him: I quite like Sloosh's case on Ryan: + Show Spoiler + On May 14 2013 10:42 slOosh wrote: The last votecount should have WoS at [L-6] We need to start consolidating our votes. 6 wagons with a handful of people who I can't recall posting is a recipe for disaster. I really would like more discussion on rayn than "he is good if not we can kill him later". 1) I have no idea how good he is, and even if he was good, there's no reason to give "good players" a "free multi day pass". 2) This doesn't actually work. In Liquid City Mafia, I was caught and exposed early by BloodyCobbler because of my weak scum play, yet no one actually lynched me. 3) Traditionally mafia KP is based upon mafia #. Lowering mafia # lowers mafia KP. His re-entry into the thread has 3 red flags: Flag 1: There is 0 contribution in this post. He sheeps Prome, comments that he doesn't like OO's analysis on himself but neglects to give any concrete proof or explanation, pre-emptively shirks responsibility for making a correct lynch by saying that he cannot read him, admits to ignoring him, and still concludes that he is a good lynch. Flag 2: From memory or reread, look at the people who find rayn suspicious. Ok. Now look at the things / people he chooses to address. Ok. Notice the discrepancy? He totally fails to address me. The one who (arguably) made the most clear cut, straightforward case against him. Instead of addressing this primary suspicion on him, he chooses to instead address Vivax's fake - role name business, which wasn't even the primary source of suspicion on him. This is cherry picking; this is sidestepping. Flag 3: False "contribution". I don't remember who said this, but they said they liked rayn's most recent contributions. Well they should read again. Pick out just how many of his posts are questions. Those posts are not alignment telling - scum can do it no problem because it's so easy. In fact I resort to asking questions as scum because it's safe and I know I won't get flak for it, but it makes it look like I'm participating in discussion. You have to look into purpose and motivation behind the questions. The ultimate difference in scum and town is that town want scum dead while scum want to look like they want scum dead. Therefore, the ultimate heuristic in finding scum is to ask "are they actually trying to get scum lynched?" From his filter, rayn's only "meaningful" suspicion is on OO. You can see this because he tries to get people to focus on OO. However, they are in the form of "what do you think of OO? why not lynch him?", when he himself had given no proper reasoning to lynching him. There is no honest effort to make players understand his view of OO. It is uncertain if he actually wants OO (or anyone in particular) lynched or not. Makings of scum play - as long as it isn't scum, they don't care where the lynch lands. Everyone who hasn't, and everyone who has needs to give their updated views on rayn. If you want to push for someone else, you best have something more than a 1 liner saying "he looks bad". Rayne did respond to this but I don't find his response sufficient: + Show Spoiler + On May 15 2013 02:24 raynpelikoneet wrote: First, Sloosh and your case: + Show Spoiler + On May 14 2013 00:55 slOosh wrote: How can it be both a bad vig shot and a bad scum shot? This makes no sense at all. In light of the DarthPunk flip I went back and reread people's stances on him. Because he had so much spotlight on him, scum would be compelled to make an opinion on him, or at least comment on him. What is important is to see how people justify their suspicions / read on him - town players have straightforward explanations while mafia try to make stuff up. Out of them, rayn sticks out the most: (1)This is a classic mafia tactic. Push and lynch people for being bad, not scum. (2)Here rayn implicitly calls DarthPunk mafia without actually doing so. He is pushing the idea that because it is "not optimal" that he is scum upon a ridiculous premise. "If you are town you shouldn't be checked". Read that out loud to yourself. It's nonsense. If that was the case then cops would always land red checks. Rayn is justifying his vote with bad (read non existent) reasoning. (3)Avoiding giving opinions on kitaman(!!!) and draws attention back on DarthPunk. Then proceeds to ask a loaded question. (4)Another loaded question, pushing suspicion on him without any justification. ##Vote raynpelikoneet 1) No it's not. It's an opinion that i expressed as simple as it was possible. I think claiming miller in a setup where the number (or existance) of millers is not known is stupid or scum. 2) The bolded part you quoted; I think as town you should play as pro-town as possible, right? Cops do not check people they think are town right? I didn't understand why DP, at the start of the game, was worried about being checked by a cop. For me it seemed like he was scum who was afraid of being checked. I hope you get what i mean. 3 and 4) As is said, i unfortunately have limited time. I was not interested in kitaman at that time, i did not know what to make of him calling WoS scum that early in the game, so i ignored it. I wanted to hear more from DP, and wanted him to do something else than to defend himself. Everyone was discussing him at that moment, i wanted to know what else than his claim was on his mind. If i got something else to clarify to you, ask me. About why i am voting for OO: What Prome said about OO and OO having an explanation to the DP night kill. In top of that DP was suspicious of OO, makes sense. Another thing that's very very odd from OO: OO called me out for meta reasons. I then posted in thread that i have a tight work schedule. What does OO answer: In my opinion this has nothing to do with meta, at all. If i post less i post less, but i still act as i usually do whatever my alignment is. OO is dropping his meta scum-read on me because of my work schedule. How does that make sense? Right, it doesn't, unless he knows i'm town and made up a meta read on me before i was even able to fully contribute to anything but DP-stuff. shiro: You are saying that if WoS is town i am scum. How does that make sense? Are you saying i am not able to form town reads on people other people think is scum? I have given my reasons why i think WoS is town, are they bullshit? Elaborate please. Ryan doesn't address two of Sloosh's stronger points: that Ryan is asking more questions than he is making contributions or providing opinions, in such a way as to appear to be contributing without actually contributing, and that he's not engaging with his serious opponents but instead cherry-picking weaker posts to respond to. That said I like that ryan is actually taking a serious look at oatsmaster, who i still think is more likely to be scum. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On May 15 2013 04:00 strongandbig wrote: quick oatsmaster update: I don't like that no one is talking about him T_T guess i need to be more like bh if i want people to talk about my arguments Anyway I'm gonna do something else so I dont just tunnel him for all of time question for shirokami: I see you posting a bunch of one-liners about how you agree with bh's case on wos. Could you give me your second best scum read and why? Or maybe read someone else's case on their scumread and tell me why they are wrong? Same question for vayneauthority except with wos replaced by prplhz. Responding to a question asked of me: I generally don't like to vote until I'm pretty serious about killing someone. I'd like for some more people to tell me what they think about Oats before I decide whether to commit to voting him. My opinion on someone else that has votes on him: I quite like Sloosh's case on Ryan: + Show Spoiler + On May 14 2013 10:42 slOosh wrote: The last votecount should have WoS at [L-6] We need to start consolidating our votes. 6 wagons with a handful of people who I can't recall posting is a recipe for disaster. I really would like more discussion on rayn than "he is good if not we can kill him later". 1) I have no idea how good he is, and even if he was good, there's no reason to give "good players" a "free multi day pass". 2) This doesn't actually work. In Liquid City Mafia, I was caught and exposed early by BloodyCobbler because of my weak scum play, yet no one actually lynched me. 3) Traditionally mafia KP is based upon mafia #. Lowering mafia # lowers mafia KP. His re-entry into the thread has 3 red flags: Flag 1: There is 0 contribution in this post. He sheeps Prome, comments that he doesn't like OO's analysis on himself but neglects to give any concrete proof or explanation, pre-emptively shirks responsibility for making a correct lynch by saying that he cannot read him, admits to ignoring him, and still concludes that he is a good lynch. Flag 2: From memory or reread, look at the people who find rayn suspicious. Ok. Now look at the things / people he chooses to address. Ok. Notice the discrepancy? He totally fails to address me. The one who (arguably) made the most clear cut, straightforward case against him. Instead of addressing this primary suspicion on him, he chooses to instead address Vivax's fake - role name business, which wasn't even the primary source of suspicion on him. This is cherry picking; this is sidestepping. Flag 3: False "contribution". I don't remember who said this, but they said they liked rayn's most recent contributions. Well they should read again. Pick out just how many of his posts are questions. Those posts are not alignment telling - scum can do it no problem because it's so easy. In fact I resort to asking questions as scum because it's safe and I know I won't get flak for it, but it makes it look like I'm participating in discussion. You have to look into purpose and motivation behind the questions. The ultimate difference in scum and town is that town want scum dead while scum want to look like they want scum dead. Therefore, the ultimate heuristic in finding scum is to ask "are they actually trying to get scum lynched?" From his filter, rayn's only "meaningful" suspicion is on OO. You can see this because he tries to get people to focus on OO. However, they are in the form of "what do you think of OO? why not lynch him?", when he himself had given no proper reasoning to lynching him. There is no honest effort to make players understand his view of OO. It is uncertain if he actually wants OO (or anyone in particular) lynched or not. Makings of scum play - as long as it isn't scum, they don't care where the lynch lands. Everyone who hasn't, and everyone who has needs to give their updated views on rayn. If you want to push for someone else, you best have something more than a 1 liner saying "he looks bad". Rayne did respond to this but I don't find his response sufficient: + Show Spoiler + On May 15 2013 02:24 raynpelikoneet wrote: First, Sloosh and your case: + Show Spoiler + On May 14 2013 00:55 slOosh wrote: How can it be both a bad vig shot and a bad scum shot? This makes no sense at all. In light of the DarthPunk flip I went back and reread people's stances on him. Because he had so much spotlight on him, scum would be compelled to make an opinion on him, or at least comment on him. What is important is to see how people justify their suspicions / read on him - town players have straightforward explanations while mafia try to make stuff up. Out of them, rayn sticks out the most: (1)This is a classic mafia tactic. Push and lynch people for being bad, not scum. (2)Here rayn implicitly calls DarthPunk mafia without actually doing so. He is pushing the idea that because it is "not optimal" that he is scum upon a ridiculous premise. "If you are town you shouldn't be checked". Read that out loud to yourself. It's nonsense. If that was the case then cops would always land red checks. Rayn is justifying his vote with bad (read non existent) reasoning. (3)Avoiding giving opinions on kitaman(!!!) and draws attention back on DarthPunk. Then proceeds to ask a loaded question. (4)Another loaded question, pushing suspicion on him without any justification. ##Vote raynpelikoneet 1) No it's not. It's an opinion that i expressed as simple as it was possible. I think claiming miller in a setup where the number (or existance) of millers is not known is stupid or scum. 2) The bolded part you quoted; I think as town you should play as pro-town as possible, right? Cops do not check people they think are town right? I didn't understand why DP, at the start of the game, was worried about being checked by a cop. For me it seemed like he was scum who was afraid of being checked. I hope you get what i mean. 3 and 4) As is said, i unfortunately have limited time. I was not interested in kitaman at that time, i did not know what to make of him calling WoS scum that early in the game, so i ignored it. I wanted to hear more from DP, and wanted him to do something else than to defend himself. Everyone was discussing him at that moment, i wanted to know what else than his claim was on his mind. If i got something else to clarify to you, ask me. About why i am voting for OO: What Prome said about OO and OO having an explanation to the DP night kill. In top of that DP was suspicious of OO, makes sense. Another thing that's very very odd from OO: OO called me out for meta reasons. I then posted in thread that i have a tight work schedule. What does OO answer: In my opinion this has nothing to do with meta, at all. If i post less i post less, but i still act as i usually do whatever my alignment is. OO is dropping his meta scum-read on me because of my work schedule. How does that make sense? Right, it doesn't, unless he knows i'm town and made up a meta read on me before i was even able to fully contribute to anything but DP-stuff. shiro: You are saying that if WoS is town i am scum. How does that make sense? Are you saying i am not able to form town reads on people other people think is scum? I have given my reasons why i think WoS is town, are they bullshit? Elaborate please. Ryan doesn't address two of Sloosh's stronger points: that Ryan is asking more questions than he is making contributions or providing opinions, in such a way as to appear to be contributing without actually contributing, and that he's not engaging with his serious opponents but instead cherry-picking weaker posts to respond to. That said I like that ryan is actually taking a serious look at oatsmaster, who i still think is more likely to be scum. Dont understand your question since I started the prplhz scumread, please rephrase your question. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On May 15 2013 04:00 strongandbig wrote: quick oatsmaster update: I don't like that no one is talking about him T_T guess i need to be more like bh if i want people to talk about my arguments Anyway I'm gonna do something else so I dont just tunnel him for all of time question for shirokami: I see you posting a bunch of one-liners about how you agree with bh's case on wos. Could you give me your second best scum read and why? Or maybe read someone else's case on their scumread and tell me why they are wrong? Same question for vayneauthority except with wos replaced by prplhz. Responding to a question asked of me: I generally don't like to vote until I'm pretty serious about killing someone. I'd like for some more people to tell me what they think about Oats before I decide whether to commit to voting him. My opinion on someone else that has votes on him: I quite like Sloosh's case on Ryan: + Show Spoiler + On May 14 2013 10:42 slOosh wrote: The last votecount should have WoS at [L-6] We need to start consolidating our votes. 6 wagons with a handful of people who I can't recall posting is a recipe for disaster. I really would like more discussion on rayn than "he is good if not we can kill him later". 1) I have no idea how good he is, and even if he was good, there's no reason to give "good players" a "free multi day pass". 2) This doesn't actually work. In Liquid City Mafia, I was caught and exposed early by BloodyCobbler because of my weak scum play, yet no one actually lynched me. 3) Traditionally mafia KP is based upon mafia #. Lowering mafia # lowers mafia KP. His re-entry into the thread has 3 red flags: Flag 1: There is 0 contribution in this post. He sheeps Prome, comments that he doesn't like OO's analysis on himself but neglects to give any concrete proof or explanation, pre-emptively shirks responsibility for making a correct lynch by saying that he cannot read him, admits to ignoring him, and still concludes that he is a good lynch. Flag 2: From memory or reread, look at the people who find rayn suspicious. Ok. Now look at the things / people he chooses to address. Ok. Notice the discrepancy? He totally fails to address me. The one who (arguably) made the most clear cut, straightforward case against him. Instead of addressing this primary suspicion on him, he chooses to instead address Vivax's fake - role name business, which wasn't even the primary source of suspicion on him. This is cherry picking; this is sidestepping. Flag 3: False "contribution". I don't remember who said this, but they said they liked rayn's most recent contributions. Well they should read again. Pick out just how many of his posts are questions. Those posts are not alignment telling - scum can do it no problem because it's so easy. In fact I resort to asking questions as scum because it's safe and I know I won't get flak for it, but it makes it look like I'm participating in discussion. You have to look into purpose and motivation behind the questions. The ultimate difference in scum and town is that town want scum dead while scum want to look like they want scum dead. Therefore, the ultimate heuristic in finding scum is to ask "are they actually trying to get scum lynched?" From his filter, rayn's only "meaningful" suspicion is on OO. You can see this because he tries to get people to focus on OO. However, they are in the form of "what do you think of OO? why not lynch him?", when he himself had given no proper reasoning to lynching him. There is no honest effort to make players understand his view of OO. It is uncertain if he actually wants OO (or anyone in particular) lynched or not. Makings of scum play - as long as it isn't scum, they don't care where the lynch lands. Everyone who hasn't, and everyone who has needs to give their updated views on rayn. If you want to push for someone else, you best have something more than a 1 liner saying "he looks bad". Rayne did respond to this but I don't find his response sufficient: + Show Spoiler + On May 15 2013 02:24 raynpelikoneet wrote: First, Sloosh and your case: + Show Spoiler + On May 14 2013 00:55 slOosh wrote: How can it be both a bad vig shot and a bad scum shot? This makes no sense at all. In light of the DarthPunk flip I went back and reread people's stances on him. Because he had so much spotlight on him, scum would be compelled to make an opinion on him, or at least comment on him. What is important is to see how people justify their suspicions / read on him - town players have straightforward explanations while mafia try to make stuff up. Out of them, rayn sticks out the most: (1)This is a classic mafia tactic. Push and lynch people for being bad, not scum. (2)Here rayn implicitly calls DarthPunk mafia without actually doing so. He is pushing the idea that because it is "not optimal" that he is scum upon a ridiculous premise. "If you are town you shouldn't be checked". Read that out loud to yourself. It's nonsense. If that was the case then cops would always land red checks. Rayn is justifying his vote with bad (read non existent) reasoning. (3)Avoiding giving opinions on kitaman(!!!) and draws attention back on DarthPunk. Then proceeds to ask a loaded question. (4)Another loaded question, pushing suspicion on him without any justification. ##Vote raynpelikoneet 1) No it's not. It's an opinion that i expressed as simple as it was possible. I think claiming miller in a setup where the number (or existance) of millers is not known is stupid or scum. 2) The bolded part you quoted; I think as town you should play as pro-town as possible, right? Cops do not check people they think are town right? I didn't understand why DP, at the start of the game, was worried about being checked by a cop. For me it seemed like he was scum who was afraid of being checked. I hope you get what i mean. 3 and 4) As is said, i unfortunately have limited time. I was not interested in kitaman at that time, i did not know what to make of him calling WoS scum that early in the game, so i ignored it. I wanted to hear more from DP, and wanted him to do something else than to defend himself. Everyone was discussing him at that moment, i wanted to know what else than his claim was on his mind. If i got something else to clarify to you, ask me. About why i am voting for OO: What Prome said about OO and OO having an explanation to the DP night kill. In top of that DP was suspicious of OO, makes sense. Another thing that's very very odd from OO: OO called me out for meta reasons. I then posted in thread that i have a tight work schedule. What does OO answer: In my opinion this has nothing to do with meta, at all. If i post less i post less, but i still act as i usually do whatever my alignment is. OO is dropping his meta scum-read on me because of my work schedule. How does that make sense? Right, it doesn't, unless he knows i'm town and made up a meta read on me before i was even able to fully contribute to anything but DP-stuff. shiro: You are saying that if WoS is town i am scum. How does that make sense? Are you saying i am not able to form town reads on people other people think is scum? I have given my reasons why i think WoS is town, are they bullshit? Elaborate please. Ryan doesn't address two of Sloosh's stronger points: that Ryan is asking more questions than he is making contributions or providing opinions, in such a way as to appear to be contributing without actually contributing, and that he's not engaging with his serious opponents but instead cherry-picking weaker posts to respond to. That said I like that ryan is actually taking a serious look at oatsmaster, who i still think is more likely to be scum. See this is exactly what I mean. WTF is this? Look at how many of my posts are about Oats. How can I take this fucking game seriously? | ||
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