EPTdoes that mean I'm a scum read? same question for all of the names in your d2 analysis... are those people scum?
This Town Ain't Big Enough Mafia - Page 80
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
does that mean I'm a scum read? same question for all of the names in your d2 analysis... are those people scum? | ||
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Dienosore
Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
On March 01 2013 18:26 Oatsmaster wrote: Ok Dienosore, what do you see that is out of line every so often from me? Well, to start off with, you attacked marv, who I was pretty sure to be town, for little reason at the beginning of the game. Called him scummy and suspicous. This immediately raised my eyebrows. "I get a different feeling in this game than LIX. He is not really stepping up here, even in LIX he didnt run for mayor until half of the first cycle was gone. So therefore, I dont really think marv is helping town so far. So therefore he is scummy. " "In this statement, I meant that his policy post is not alignment indicative. I still think he is scummy, but that post isnt a reason why." You stopped pushing against marv once you failed to gain any sheep Next, you try to distract/mislead town with some conspiracy theories that had nothing to do with what was being talked about at the time: Does this look set-up to anyone else? Or am I just paranoid. No mention of Hapa in the last 2 pages by these gentlemen, Marv sets up a question in order to give a scum read on Hapa that is substantiated by another veteran in a way that is totally unsuspicious and it looks real good. Interesting. You constantly are asking other people for their reads, yet offering nothing back other than occasionally slinging splashes of mud. Its called keeping them to yourself :D who is scum Iamp? Anyway stop discussing Marv, its getting nowhere. Acro do you have any reads? This is the only thing you saw Zarepath? Really? Do you have any scumreads? reads keirathi? etc. Then you have this that looks like you are trying to make an excuse to duel someone and be able to get away with murder My plan is that if no lynch is gonna happen, I will duel my top scumread. Not good because generally my reads are not very good. Maybe this game its different? I dont know. yes I just discredited myself. But no lynch is definitely not happening. After fumbling around for a bit and making general conversation, you lay this gem on us where you explicitly say you are in favor to kill a towny: I dont think that Keirathi is gonna flip scum, but on the slight chance that he is trying not to draw flack for his play, I am in favour of lynching him. More poking and prodding to keep up the appearance that you are actually doing something. A string of questions followed by very few original insites: Huh, Who is scum Acro? What do you mean we have bigger fish to fry? lol Syl what do you think about that? You did a similar thing as I recall. Wait, Cora so what do you think about Adam saying that he would do it again? etc. Like I said, not the strongest case, but there definitely is enough material here to warrant suspicion. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
Dienosore, do you think the prodding is useful or useless? Well, to start off with, you attacked marv, who I was pretty sure to be town, for little reason at the beginning of the game. Called him scummy and suspicous. This immediately raised my eyebrows. Why is someone attacking your town read scummy? Guess everyone is scum for attacking Acro then. Then you have this that looks like you are trying to make an excuse to duel someone and be able to get away with murder This is so out of context that it is funny. What happened is that Cora hatched a plan where the scummiest person in the thread would duel a person of his liking. I didnt agree. He asked me then how would we prevent no lynch from happening. I gave this suggestion. Is it scummy? No. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17994 Posts
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Dienosore
Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
On February 25 2013 06:20 marvellosity wrote: you're being rather egotistical. This game isn't about one player proving one other player is mafia, there are 15 of us. It's a collective decision. It makes far more sense to have the 2 scummiest people dueling it out, so town can choose. It goes back to my anecdote from Fruity earlier. Someone, or a bunch of people, can think someone is mafia, but it's possible that in fact the guy is not mafia, and may help prove so with his defence, or with his own cases and play. If you have the two scummiest in the lynch, then this leaves room for error and play. It's much more unlikely that the two scummiest will both absolve themselves, rather than just one. and this one On February 25 2013 06:46 marvellosity wrote: It's not insanely difficult to enforce. It should be not too hard to find at least the group of people we want to lynch into, and then give a deadline/ultimatum for 2 of them to duel, or if there's 1 clear frontrunner, give a couple of people the choice of whether they want to duel with the frontrunner. Actually the information you'll get from how people deal with this while under suspicion is probably far greater than any information you'll get from just having one clear townie dueling with someone suspicious. Whether ppl duel like they're asked, or go afk, how the suspects deal with the whole dueling situation - there's a whole mine of good shit there. Further, I overwhelmingly back my judgement on who mafia are and are not over yours, yamato, so the last thing I need is you running off playing the hero. Couldn't be more blatant to me. Plus the guy basically just outlined the gameplan for us, handing us the keys to an easy towny victory. From then on, trust was born. Kept waiting for him to slip up, but he never did, so I had no real reason to distrust him. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
Kept waiting for him to slip up, but he never did, so I had no real reason to distrust him. So you wanted a reason to call him scum huh. Who does that? scum. Plus the guy basically just outlined the gameplan for us, handing us the keys to an easy towny victory. Setup discussion is not alignment indicative and that seems to be what you are giving marv a town read. | ||
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Dienosore
Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
On March 01 2013 18:29 thrawn2112 wrote: dino how are you gonna say that I slunk back into the shadows? the shadows of my 7 page filter? does that mean I'm a scum read? same question for all of the names in your d2 analysis... are those people scum? "slunk back into the shadows" is used in this context as more of a figure of speech. Your mouth was mouth was moving a lot but nothing you said really showed up on the relationship map. Does it make you scum? Not necessarily; that's not what my maps are about. Just means that your aggression levels didn't really set off any remarkable flags, other than it didn't match the volume of your posts. | ||
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
Duel 2 Vote Count Dienosore (3): Adam4167, thrawn2112, Oatsmaster Sylencia (1): cDgCorazon 6 votes needed to lynch. If a majority is not reached in 37 hours by 00:20 GMT (+00:00), both duelists will die. | ||
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Dienosore
Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
On March 01 2013 20:07 Oatsmaster wrote: So you wanted a reason to call him scum huh. Who does that? scum. Gotta be joking me. I wait for everyone to slip up so I can better hunt catch and kill mafia, especially early on in the game when everyone is still suspect. Do you not do similar gut checks about your reads, also? Setup discussion is not alignment indicative and that seems to be what you are giving marv a town read. Normally I would agree with you, but in my mind, marv did more than just some simple setup discussion. He told us in easy abc 1-2-3 steps how to win the game. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17994 Posts
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Sylencia
Australia1057 Posts
On March 01 2013 09:07 Dienosore wrote: This town obviously isn't big enough for both of us, Sylencia. ##Duel: Sylencia That is one of the worst reasons I have seen anyone give for anything ever. Me warming up to the idea suggests I was still hours off wanting to duel you over Corazon with valid reason to switch, and yet you decide to pull the trigger prematurely for what? Considering at this point in time you hadn't made a case against me whatsoever other than your 'seems suspicious' vague argument. On March 01 2013 10:18 Dienosore wrote: Case on Sylencia Here we start with this awesome post: Speaking of bad first posts, he openly suggests blues come forward at the start of the game. Then he says reluctance to reveal yourself should be met with suspicion. Why would a towny ever want to expose blues, especially so early? I can understand if it is later in the game and there are lots of zany roles to protect people with, but this set-up so far seems to be pretty straight forward and simple. Here he promises reads then doesn't deliver Then there is his vote on Adam: Here he says Adam isn't scum, then he actually has the balls to vote to kill him anyway. He also manages to weakly align himself with Keir (who flipped scum, btw). But wait... what's this?: Now it's not ok to kill a towny, even if he's bad? This whole post goes directly against his vote on adam. Why you so flip-floppy, Syl? He finally makes some real reads once Adam is dead, maybe because he is being pressured for looking scummy. Whatever, standard play. What is interesting is this little blip: He admits to having scum traits? Why would a towny ever say something like that? And the whole message is pretty much, "I want to duel Corazon because he is tunneling me". Maybe I'm wrong about this, but shouldn't you want to duel because you think someone is scum, not because they hurt your feelings? There are a few other smaller things that add up after a while, but I think I've got the main points up there. 1. I'm making extreme cases, nowhere does it say 'hey blues - come out day 1 because then you can freely duel!' If you read that point at all it was in regards to policy Hapa was suggesting. That way we don't have trigger happy players deciding to duel at a random point in time only for their opponent to say 'Dude, I was X role and Y was scum'. You get 1 scum at the cost of 1 blue and 1 townie, best trade ever. 2. I weakly suggest that I think both are town and Adam was the better choice because of his unpredictability. Nothing in Keir's filter screamed outright scum so naturally he was a null read but there were bits of potential town play in there hence why he was leaning slightly towards town. 3. You take posts out of context here regarding the post going against Oats at that point. 4. What, you're expecting me to say 'nono, Corazon is wrong, my play is completely town - look at the style in which I lurked because I wasn't around it screams town!' ... With the desire to duel Cora, did you not understand the point I was making against him or do you not understand how I was accusing him of being scummy there? Your case against me is extremely weak Deino. On March 01 2013 10:49 Dienosore wrote: I was suspicious ever since his first post asking blues to come out. He wasn't in my top scumreads until I saw how he kind of fumbled around after the first duel. Now after digging into his filter and actually writing down my case, I'm pretty convinced. And you conveniently never mentioned anything about having a read on me beforehand? Decided not to call me out when you say you saw my original post? You've only become completely suspicious of me after dueling me and then reading my filter? So that means you hadn't actually made a case against me before deciding to just jump into a duel. I don't about you, but I like to have facts laid out before full on accusing the opponent of being scum and trying to kill them at that spot. But you've got it the wrong way around, which means you were really only dueling me at that time because it's better that you're vsing someone who is about as suspicious as you as opposed to someone like Acrofales who you know you'd lose a duel against him? There was a lot of talk about that in the hours leading up the duel, and it honestly looks like you cracked under the pressure of having to duel a stronger townie than yourself. On February 27 2013 15:03 cDgCorazon wrote: If you guys sit here and lynch Dieno off, you get very little about my alignment (only the fact that I'm not voting for Dieno), and we would sit here and ask questions about me and Syl for another day and basically waste a Day (unless of course Dieno comes back as scum). If you guys lynch Sylencia, you guys get his flip and get information about both his and my alignment from the flip. It seems like a no-brainer to me. And you get no information about Deino, who at this point is looking about 10x the scum you are looking at the moment. If you were truly wanting to get the most information you wouldn't have even suggested doing a single lynch, but doing the double lynch because otherwise it still takes 2-3 days to fully get all the information out there. Yet somehow you're trying to defend Deino from dying for some reason by proposing the single lynch on myself. On March 01 2013 12:33 Dienosore wrote: @hapa(/thrawn): I read thrawns post and addressed his points. Here ya go: My main motivation was the fact that he wanted to duel me. I was a little offended that he would jump at me so early in the game, so naturally I snapped back at him. Then some time passed and some stuff happened. Marv vouched for Adam, etc. I stayed suspicious up until the flip, and now I'm pretty sure Adam is not a scumdog. I just don't see mafia dueling each other day 1. Unless of course it was all a genius plan to do the unthinkable and get town cred... but probably not. It wasn't obvious to me at all. Up until Keir flipped, I never really felt strongly that he was mafia. Maybe some of you other guys have more experience with Keir to have been able to make a meta read based on his lazy play, but I didn't. Lesson learned, though.. 1. Why would your main purpose behind a duel be because of OMGUS? That's not how duels go, you duel when you find something particularly scummy and then you can say you want a duel. Your duel on day 2 goes to show that you're not truly interested if they're scum or not seeing as how you make the most generic comments before trying to confirm their alignment. 2. You say that you didn't find Keir to be that scummy until he flipped and it's ok. I say that I didn't find Keir that scummy and you're using it as a case against me. Double standards? Ok. On March 01 2013 18:08 Dienosore wrote: Idleness and sketchy plays the entire game slowly build up to scumball status. Here's one for you: Idleness and sketchy duel and arguments quickly build up to scumball status. On March 01 2013 20:28 Dienosore wrote: Gotta be joking me. I wait for everyone to slip up so I can better hunt catch and kill mafia, especially early on in the game when everyone is still suspect. Do you not do similar gut checks about your reads, also? Normally I would agree with you, but in my mind, marv did more than just some simple setup discussion. He told us in easy abc 1-2-3 steps how to win the game. How do you expect 1) for everyone to slip up - there's only a small number of scum. 2) to know who the scum are if you're never aiming to kill one first and then you can get reads on the rest of your suspects and hope they can slip then? That'd sure be an idealistic world if you're going to say "Well, if W, X, Y and Z are the only ones I see slip - that must mean they're scum'. Some of you are asking for my top scum reads. Cora I've already written about, but I finally get to filter dive Oats to see if he's still as scummy as I saw him during mid D1, and then onto a few others. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
The reason why its not alignment indicative is because anybody, town or scum could do it convincingly. Its just facts not opinions. It does not make him town because it is helpful. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17994 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain17994 Posts
On March 01 2013 18:22 thrawn2112 wrote: I think there's a difference in conviction. As town he lurks and stuff but will still get down to business. This game he's been pouting, not voting based on scum reads (voting to kill the worse town player, adam over keir) and just not having reads in general. Does anyone know what syl's reads are? (no) there is some stuff recently about cor, and of course he claims adam is scum. but that's it. oh I was reading the thread and this was funny, and true: If I have to assume that both aren't scum (which i'm conflicted about atm) I am taking syl's side against dieno. kinda waiting for syl to show up before deciding if I want double lynch I very much disagree. Look at NMM 34, where he was scum. He was making cases. Not pushing them, but can you honestly say he was pushing anything in NMM 37? To me, his town and his scumplay look exactly the same: a lurker who drops by once a day to make a case and then buggers off again. The only difference in the two seems to be that as scum he is slightly more active. However, with a sample size of 1,there's no guarantee that that is the case, it might just have been the game, or its timing. | ||
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Sylencia
Australia1057 Posts
- His filter shows little effort from him in finding out the scum, but instead he relies a lot on everyone else by asking them questions repeatedly. - He had made the single move which was essentially what I did but 24 hours later. He gave his reasoning for it, but at the time I didn't really like it. On February 28 2013 20:06 Oatsmaster wrote: His 'oats is scum' read on me is basically a summary of my filter, and it doesnt look like he really wants to find out who is scum. Not saying this question is scummy, I just want clarification - but if your general filter literally contains just questions the majority of the time, is that not a valid point to raise as being potentially scum? There's content in short bursts with regards to reads and whatnot from then on until the duel begins, I don't find anything too out of the ordinary overall, the only thing I really would comment about it is just being able to get away with not revealing too much about his thoughts on the game until Day 2. While I was hoping to find more, I'm finding myself having to back down from Oats for now. In fact the more I read, the less sure I am. It's seriously hard for me to pin down anyone for doing anything because there's always something that goes back against the post. The only other person I'm worried about is zare because he has flown under the radar this entire game - he's provided his thoughts a few times, but his latest reads don't give any explanation behind them, it's just an echo of what everyone else has suspected. There are a few association cases I would make too, but I would prefer not to have to rely on them because it's complete speculation unless their associated one flips. | ||
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Sylencia
Australia1057 Posts
On March 01 2013 21:31 Acrofales wrote: I very much disagree. Look at NMM 34, where he was scum. He was making cases. Not pushing them, but can you honestly say he was pushing anything in NMM 37? To me, his town and his scumplay look exactly the same: a lurker who drops by once a day to make a case and then buggers off again. The only difference in the two seems to be that as scum he is slightly more active. However, with a sample size of 1,there's no guarantee that that is the case, it might just have been the game, or its timing. Difference was the timing - I was on Christmas break during the time I was scum, and I'm currently working full time. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17994 Posts
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
- His filter shows little effort from him in finding out the scum, but instead he relies a lot on everyone else by asking them questions repeatedly. Um lol? Im asking people why they think someone is scum. Scum have a hard time providing reasoning unless its a bus because they know that the person is actually town. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
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Snarfs
Canada1006 Posts
On March 01 2013 18:23 Acrofales wrote: @Snarfs: Yamato gives a hypothetical for why my actions this game can be explained as scum. However, here is a town explanation: I refused to believe Adam would do something that stupid as town, so I first saw him as scum, and later as a 3P to explain it. I was (probably) wrong. Now tell me why Yamato's explanation makes more sense and what in my filter actually pushes a scum agenda, rather than a town one. That, and a ridiculously high standard for my D1 reads are all I have found in anybody's suspicion of me. I know the reasons why you might be town Acro. I'm just trying to figure out if I can believe that you actually believed that. I'm warming up to it, like I did in warming up to Adam being town after his duel. I still need to look into those other players more. I made notes while catching up yesterday and when I have time I'm going to go back and reread some things into those players I listed as they stood out the most in my mind for various reasons or another. | ||
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