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On February 07 2013 12:42 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Djo,
Seriously what were you thinking going for a random lynch? Was it your intention to actually random lynch some guy, generate discussion, draw out scum, yadda yadda? It irks me because I've never seen you (or anyone) have the balls to suggest doing it.
heh heh heh I did this in Dessert Mini Mafia as scum. I just suggested it tho but didn't actually push the idea of actually lynching them.
I actually think that Djo brings up a decent point about Mocsta tho. Mocsta was calling out Oats for being scummy and doing scummy things. But then he comes around and calls him townie and is then after convinced that Oats is townie. I think its very possible from the beginning that he knew that Oats was townie. He tried to sling some shit on him and paint him as red. But when he saw that he wasn't gonna win he backed down from Oats knowing that he was town and gave him a townie read.
@Yamato what do you think about this. What made you back off Mocsta? Was it because he wrote against your case and you lost confidence in it. What about the point that Djo brings? Mocsta was painting Oats as scum till he totally backtracked and gave him a solid green town read. I think it makes more sense if you think that Mocsta knew that Oats was town from the start.
On February 07 2013 12:38 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 12:11 Mocsta wrote:On February 07 2013 11:57 Djodref wrote:On February 07 2013 11:39 Mocsta wrote:On February 07 2013 11:27 Djodref wrote:
Yes, I expected you to join my random lynch. I didn't understand why not at that time and I don't understand it more when I read the thread again. So I'm suspicious of you.
What is the point of saying that he is mimicking his scum post structure in this game if you don't think he is scum then ? What is the point of keeping shitting up the thread with him (not saying that you are the only responsible for it) when you have pegged him as town ? Why not take a break and wait for other players to post ?
Where did you see that I had Oats as scum ?
Well i already spelt it out, RNG is a non-commital lynch. Im not interested in it full stop. Regardless of the proposee. I also made this clear you, when I suggested you were my target from my RNG simulation. At the start of Oats/Mocsta feud, I labelled him a as scummy-ish town player.The point of the post structure comment to inform him, I happen to interpret that structure scummy. I dont see a problem with that. It was not mentioned in a malicious way, and if you think it is, then you are obviously too sensitive when it suits your agenda; as comments he made were much more direct yet you dont take issue with it. I didnt want to keep shitting the thread. I offered to stop when VE stepped in. I offered to stop when it kept going and I could see it being pointless. I offered to stop when others started saying again it was shittign up the thread. Each and everytime he threw it back in my face; and at points even called me scum. Of course I am goign to stand up for myself. Dont give me this shit about taking a break; I did, and as soon as people join into the thread, look at the first thing Oats "DEMANDS" of them. Feedback on the feud, hes the one who cant move on. Your last comment is a misinterpretation: What I wrote was reference to Mocsta/Palmar being scum (one of the two active participants = me out of mocsta/oats) What if I had picked up yamato ? Would you refuse to join me then ? The fact that I picked Oats randomly only engages me, and if you join my lynch or not engages you. It's only non-committal for me, and I wouldn't even say it's fully non-committal. And it appeared that you had Oats as scum, even if you deny having him as scum, so I really suspect you to have wanted to paint him in red. Anyway, you don't tell people what makes their post scummy, you don't tell them what is a scum tell for you. Town players doesn't do this, they push scum to make the mistake that is going to allow them to nail them. So either you wanted to paint Oats in red (without joining his lynch), either you were trying to coach him the hard way. I don't see the town motivation for doing any of this. Yes I would refuse to join you on RNG yamato, (1) Because I wouldnt join you in a RNG at any point and on any one. and (2) Yamato hadnt entered the game yet. Im not voting for someone I cant get a read on. Right, you seem to be the only person saying I had Oats as scum (aside from Oats). I have said I was defending myself, and guess what, other people commenting on the situation have also said I was defending myself and right to call him out. Your points are weak, and Im starting to think your intentionally shitting up the thread. You are constantly pussy footing about my "reaction to RNG"; why dont you just be a man and make your case. At least Yamato had the stones to attempt a case. & What a load of crap about keeping scum tells to yourself. The whole point of making a case is identifying scum tells and providing reasoning behind the motive to why it is a tell.This comment that we keep scum tells to ourselves has to be the stupidest comment I have read this entire game. Why are you spewing so much bullshit Djo? Are you trying to bury that Jay and me have issues with JX and his sole post? Are you trying to bury my case against Yamato? Perhaps your just trying to bury something else I have not noticed yet... either way, your contributions are still lacking. Okay, let me explain to you clearly once again, because either you don't understand the case I'm trying to convey, either you are doing this on purpose. Let's imagine that you are town and Oats is scum. You should never tell him, "oh, by the way, you are mimicking your scum post structure" if you don't attack him for this. What if Oats is scum ? He can correct himself without being really called for it. So either your early post concerning Oats were attacks against him that you don't want to take the responsibility for (what I'm thinking and that would be coming from scum Mocsta), either it was some way for you to start a flame war with Oats and make the thread unreadable (also coming from scum Mocsta) or either it is a very poor way of playing town. And I'm not trying to divert anything from anything, my main concerns right now are Palmar and you.
@Palmar Viking man lets see that scum hunting.
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In fact, let me go down my list and tell you guys exactly what I think of the game so far. I know you all hate list posts but whatever, deal with it.
TOWN
Oats
Sloosh
VE
Mocsta
Jay
Prplhz
CC
NULL
Djo
Phagga
MAFIA
Palmar
JX
Snarfs
The only thing left to do in this game is lynch into/see more of the bottom five and figure out which one is the town player. Right now I'd pick Djo.
I didn't list these in any particular order, but my town reads are all fairly decent at the moment. It would take a lot for me to change them.
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On February 07 2013 13:06 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 12:42 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Djo,
Seriously what were you thinking going for a random lynch? Was it your intention to actually random lynch some guy, generate discussion, draw out scum, yadda yadda? It irks me because I've never seen you (or anyone) have the balls to suggest doing it. @ CheeseDid you see the statistic gathered by kitaman (clicky) regarding the average D1 scum lynch on TL ? Here is the interesting part ! Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 14:00 kitaman27 wrote:
*snip*
Mafia players are lynched 21.1% of the time on day one.
Random lynching would result in a mafia lynch 24.6% of the time.
44% of players playing in a newbie game have returned to play in at least 1 other game.
There have been 931 distinct mafia players.
And finally my favorite stat...
VisceraEyes has survived until endgame twice out of 36 games (5.56%). The highest survival percentage is 60%.
Feel free to share any suggestions for improvements that you may have. Hope you all enjoy! In this game, random lynching would have around 31% chance to hit mafia on day 1 ! From my point ow view, it is a good as one chance over three. It's far better than our expected chance to lynch mafia. That's why I thought that his game was good to experiment with random lynching. It turns out that I had bad luck with my randomization with Oats. The goal was to generate discussion, but it also kinda failed >.< Anyway, what do you think on Mocsta ?
I dont give a shit about percentages. If we lynch anyone, no matter if it's random or not, it's still a 31% chance. The only difference is (if unsuccessful) we kill a scummy-looking town instead of some random dude by lottery. Damn right it failed, Djo.
Also:
On February 07 2013 13:00 Oatsmaster wrote:Either Yamato is scum or bad. I think bad is more likely Sorry yamato 
That's always the two options :/
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lol jay i barely read dessert, just did the sexy flavor.
Oh Yamato and that list post. Palmar should be null imo
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I think Mocsta might be town because I don't think a mafia player went through the effort to make that huge response. Also, in my experience, people that are this wrong about me are often town, a la Vivax in LIX. I'm content with the idea that he actually has a scumread on me, instead of it being an outright lie.
Obviously some of you think he's mafia, such as jay and Oats, so why don't you guys make your own case? I think Djo made a decent point, yes, but I still think he might be town despite it. I thought my case was good, too, but he still might be town despite that. Yes, this is wishy-washy, as I've been accused of, but in all honesty D1 reads change very quickly.
If you think I'm bad/scum for thinking he might be town after all this, you need to justify your read better.
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On February 07 2013 13:12 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
lol jay i barely read dessert, just did the sexy flavor.
Oh Yamato and that list post. Palmar should be null imo
Do you disagree with any of my reads?
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On February 07 2013 13:06 Djodref wrote:
In this game, random lynching would have around 31% chance to hit mafia on day 1 !
From my point ow view, it is a good as one chance over three. It's far better than our expected chance to lynch mafia. That's why I thought that his game was good to experiment with random lynching. It turns out that I had bad luck with my randomization with Oats. The goal was to generate discussion, but it also kinda failed >.<
Djodref, I already explained. I did a randomization as well. and it listed you for lynch.
Why can I not follow through with that? Why cant my RNG on you, be a valid medium for discussion.
The day you tell me that you are willing to lynch yourself UNCONTESTED if your name pops up on the RNG, is the day I will actually give it real thought as a mechanism to fight scum.
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On February 07 2013 13:18 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 13:06 Djodref wrote:
In this game, random lynching would have around 31% chance to hit mafia on day 1 !
From my point ow view, it is a good as one chance over three. It's far better than our expected chance to lynch mafia. That's why I thought that his game was good to experiment with random lynching. It turns out that I had bad luck with my randomization with Oats. The goal was to generate discussion, but it also kinda failed >.< Djodref, I already explained. I did a randomization as well. and it listed you for lynch. Why can I not follow through with that? Why cant my RNG on you, be a valid medium for discussion. The day you tell me that you are willing to lynch yourself UNCONTESTED if your name pops up on the RNG, is the day I will actually give it real thought as a mechanism to fight scum.
Mocsta, if my newly minted town read on you is correct, I would suggest you stop wasting your time debating RNG lynches and instead focus on what actually going on in the game.
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Well im still waiting for Djo feedback on my JX question
On February 07 2013 13:05 Mocsta wrote:
@Djodref
Considering JX and you have a commonality ( a vote interest on me)
What do you make of JX case on me. Do you agree with it?
Do you think this is the substantial contribution of a town player? If so, i would like to know what I am missing that you see clearly.
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On February 07 2013 13:05 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 12:38 Djodref wrote:On February 07 2013 12:11 Mocsta wrote:On February 07 2013 11:57 Djodref wrote:On February 07 2013 11:39 Mocsta wrote:On February 07 2013 11:27 Djodref wrote:
Yes, I expected you to join my random lynch. I didn't understand why not at that time and I don't understand it more when I read the thread again. So I'm suspicious of you.
What is the point of saying that he is mimicking his scum post structure in this game if you don't think he is scum then ? What is the point of keeping shitting up the thread with him (not saying that you are the only responsible for it) when you have pegged him as town ? Why not take a break and wait for other players to post ?
Where did you see that I had Oats as scum ?
Well i already spelt it out, RNG is a non-commital lynch. Im not interested in it full stop. Regardless of the proposee. I also made this clear you, when I suggested you were my target from my RNG simulation. At the start of Oats/Mocsta feud, I labelled him a as scummy-ish town player.The point of the post structure comment to inform him, I happen to interpret that structure scummy. I dont see a problem with that. It was not mentioned in a malicious way, and if you think it is, then you are obviously too sensitive when it suits your agenda; as comments he made were much more direct yet you dont take issue with it. I didnt want to keep shitting the thread. I offered to stop when VE stepped in. I offered to stop when it kept going and I could see it being pointless. I offered to stop when others started saying again it was shittign up the thread. Each and everytime he threw it back in my face; and at points even called me scum. Of course I am goign to stand up for myself. Dont give me this shit about taking a break; I did, and as soon as people join into the thread, look at the first thing Oats "DEMANDS" of them. Feedback on the feud, hes the one who cant move on. Your last comment is a misinterpretation: What I wrote was reference to Mocsta/Palmar being scum (one of the two active participants = me out of mocsta/oats) What if I had picked up yamato ? Would you refuse to join me then ? The fact that I picked Oats randomly only engages me, and if you join my lynch or not engages you. It's only non-committal for me, and I wouldn't even say it's fully non-committal. And it appeared that you had Oats as scum, even if you deny having him as scum, so I really suspect you to have wanted to paint him in red. Anyway, you don't tell people what makes their post scummy, you don't tell them what is a scum tell for you. Town players doesn't do this, they push scum to make the mistake that is going to allow them to nail them. So either you wanted to paint Oats in red (without joining his lynch), either you were trying to coach him the hard way. I don't see the town motivation for doing any of this. Yes I would refuse to join you on RNG yamato, (1) Because I wouldnt join you in a RNG at any point and on any one. and (2) Yamato hadnt entered the game yet. Im not voting for someone I cant get a read on. Right, you seem to be the only person saying I had Oats as scum (aside from Oats). I have said I was defending myself, and guess what, other people commenting on the situation have also said I was defending myself and right to call him out. Your points are weak, and Im starting to think your intentionally shitting up the thread. You are constantly pussy footing about my "reaction to RNG"; why dont you just be a man and make your case. At least Yamato had the stones to attempt a case. & What a load of crap about keeping scum tells to yourself. The whole point of making a case is identifying scum tells and providing reasoning behind the motive to why it is a tell.This comment that we keep scum tells to ourselves has to be the stupidest comment I have read this entire game. Why are you spewing so much bullshit Djo? Are you trying to bury that Jay and me have issues with JX and his sole post? Are you trying to bury my case against Yamato? Perhaps your just trying to bury something else I have not noticed yet... either way, your contributions are still lacking. Okay, let me explain to you clearly once again, because either you don't understand the case I'm trying to convey, either you are doing this on purpose. Let's imagine that you are town and Oats is scum. You should never tell him, "oh, by the way, you are mimicking your scum post structure" if you don't attack him for this. What if Oats is scum ? He can correct himself without being really called for it. So either your early post concerning Oats were attacks against him that you don't want to take the responsibility for (what I'm thinking and that would be coming from scum Mocsta), either it was some way for you to start a flame war with Oats and make the thread unreadable (also coming from scum Mocsta) or either it is a very poor way of playing town. And I'm not trying to divert anything from anything, my main concerns right now are Palmar and you. Djodref, lets look at the situation holistically. Oats town, Mocsta scum: This is the situation in Newbie 35; and is the meta argument both Oats and Yamato presented. This has been refuted by myself already, in addition to several others who (I assume) are not aware of my meta. It is clear my tone in addressing Oats is not with the intention to flame. This is refuted. *snip*
The problem I have with you is not only the fact that you were flaming with Oats, defending yourself or whatever.
I don't see any reason for a town player to make these kind of comments if you don't honestly believe Oats is scum.
I want to tell you that you didn't address my point at all, that is you either gave advice to Oats to not looking scummy, either you painted him in read, and you don't explain your motivation for doing this.
Seriously, am I the only one who was surprised when Mocsta had a town read on Oats after all this ?
On February 06 2013 12:23 Mocsta wrote:
You realise that your post structure is mimicking your play from Mafia LIX right? (You were scum)
*snip*
On February 06 2013 13:39 Mocsta wrote:
A town player does it, because this is a challenging game, and we need to avoid mislynches.
So far, your play is about reacting to minute details in early-game posts trying to promote discussion. You are trying to shit all over them, without providing additional avenues for discourse. There is nothing solid in your play so far.
This leads me to think:
(1) You are bad townie / scummy townie - don't know any better
(2) You are bored - trying to troll
(3) You are scum - trying to derail
You don't typically try to troll; so its (1) or (3).
The win-con for town is to lynch all (3); and I already suggested prior we need to improve post quality to reduce the number of (1)s. Hence, either way, your current behaviour is a problem for town.
On February 06 2013 16:49 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 16:42 Oatsmaster wrote:
Ok Mocsta,
What do you propose to improve the quality of the town players? Back to the one liner posts. You know in Mafia LIX, I kept saying in the Obs QT when you do it, its scummy as fuck.
No one believed me.. except the flip.As for your question. I dont propose how anyone else does that besides myself. I have already stated what actions I will be taking. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=395690¤tpage=10#198
Regarding JieXian, his case his utter-bullshit, but he wants to lynch you and he is usually a lynch-bait. So I'm not going to worry about him unless he shows no interest in finding scum later on like last game.
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On February 07 2013 13:12 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
lol jay i barely read dessert, just did the sexy flavor.
Oh Yamato and that list post. Palmar should be null imo
Rofl didn't even read the game you cohosted. Trolling you in scum QT was fun
And yes that flavor was sexy not gonna lie.
@Yamato You have alot more town reads then i would expect. Im also very interested in why you read prphz and CC they way you do. What made you think there town?
Also is lurking the only criteria you have for making scum. Remember that Mocsta said in his scum QT last time that he wanted to be a leader in the town as scum. He has the desire. I don't think your giving him enough credit as a scum player.
Dismissing him just because he applies effort is a bit disconcerting. Did you think he was gonna just say im scum you got me.
@Mocsta if you could rate your scum play 1-10 what would you rate it.
@Djo you choice 12 in your RNG to pick Oats as far as i believe
@CC Your current best scum read. Also your biggest townie read
@prphz Stop lurking.
@JX Stop lurking
@Palmar Stop lurking
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On February 07 2013 13:17 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 13:12 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
lol jay i barely read dessert, just did the sexy flavor.
Oh Yamato and that list post. Palmar should be null imo Do you disagree with any of my reads?
Personally idk about Sloosh or prplhz being in the townie section. You seems to give town cred fairly easily. I don't even think I've earned a townie stamp as of yet. What would you consider if one of your 3 scummer reads were to flip town? One of JX and palmar is likely town. two mega lurker scum is unlikely.
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We should policy lynch SloOsh as he only rolls Scum/3rd party /joke
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On February 07 2013 13:25 jaybrundage wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 13:12 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
lol jay i barely read dessert, just did the sexy flavor.
Oh Yamato and that list post. Palmar should be null imo Rofl didn't even read the game you cohosted. Trolling you in scum QT was fun And yes that flavor was sexy not gonna lie. @Yamato You have alot more town reads then i would expect. Im also very interested in why you read prphz and CC they way you do. What made you think there town? Also is lurking the only criteria you have for making scum. Remember that Mocsta said in his scum QT last time that he wanted to be a leader in the town as scum. He has the desire. I don't think your giving him enough credit as a scum player. Dismissing him just because he applies effort is a bit disconcerting. Did you think he was gonna just say im scum you got me. @Mocsta if you could rate your scum play 1-10 what would you rate it. @Djo you choice 12 in your RNG to pick Oats as far as i believe @CC Your current best scum read. Also your biggest townie read @prphz Stop lurking. @JX Stop lurking @Palmar Stop lurking
@ jay
Yeah, it's true, I excluded myself from my random lynch. Do you have any problem with that ?
What's your point ?
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Jay, atm Snarfs looking like he wants me to lynch him or something. Altough i think he has the propensiy to possibly be towntown, slighty, because an unusual stance. JX is a decent scumread because hes literally done nothing but lol over mocsta. Oats best town read because my gut said so.
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On February 07 2013 13:26 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 13:17 yamato77 wrote:On February 07 2013 13:12 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
lol jay i barely read dessert, just did the sexy flavor.
Oh Yamato and that list post. Palmar should be null imo Do you disagree with any of my reads? Personally idk about Sloosh or prplhz being in the townie section. You seems to give town cred fairly easily. I don't even think I've earned a townie stamp as of yet. What would you consider if one of your 3 scummer reads were to flip town? One of JX and palmar is likely town. two mega lurker scum is unlikely.
Town cred comes easily. One of the weaknesses of my play in the past was ignoring town tells, so I think I've gotten a lot better about that. There are four mafia, and of the four I think might be right now, Palmar is the most likely to be town because this type of behavior is alignment-null for him, in general. If we lynched him and he flipped town, I would say Mocsta and Djo would be the next two I would want to reassess. Right now I'm pretty sure about Sloosh/Prplhz/Oats/Jay/You though.
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On February 07 2013 13:07 jaybrundage wrote:
I actually think that Djo brings up a decent point about Mocsta tho. Mocsta was calling out Oats for being scummy and doing scummy things. But then he comes around and calls him townie and is then after convinced that Oats is townie. I think its very possible from the beginning that he knew that Oats was townie. He tried to sling some shit on him and paint him as red. But when he saw that he wasn't gonna win he backed down from Oats knowing that he was town and gave him a townie read.
Jay,
this is the last I am going to speak on the matter
I already went through the town/scum oats/mocsta options here
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=395690¤tpage=21#418
The crux is; me/oats butt heads regardless of alignment & we both take each others comments some-what personally.
i.e. us feuding is NOT alignment indicative. HOW we feud IS alignment indicative.
Even Oats acknowleges this
On February 07 2013 13:07 Oatsmaster wrote:
Well Mocsta is playing DIFFERENTLY than in XXXV, so Im not saying that he isnt scum, Im saying that that is not the reason that he is scum if he actually is scum.
==============
If you want a geneal recap
When I stopped trolling and posted genuine thoughts
This is me:
On February 06 2013 12:04 Mocsta wrote:
TL;DR
I dont think this game is as simple as "lynch the scummiest person". We know from every single game played, there is usually a mislynch. This game is even harder, as without any blue roles to aid in "confirming townies" greater effort must be put in to avoid continuation mislynches - scum hunting must always take precedence.
As such, Oats, I think you are missing the point of this game; and should re-read my post that I linked above.
This is Oats response
On February 06 2013 12:10 Oatsmaster wrote:
What are you even saying?
BLABLABLA
lets lynch the scummiest person.
Seriously thats all you are saying.
....
I never said Oats flamed me; but the above is NOT a comment I am going to walk away from.
I already said, perhaps my retort "to replace" crossed the line of acceptability, but, I have seen much worse reactions to stubbornness in forum-mafia.
I really think this feud is being over-inflated. The question, by over-sensitive townies, or scum looking to create havok.
My tip is #2; the townies in this game have enough experience under the belt to recognise when two town players butt heads with stubbornness. Which leaves scum creating havok. on why this topic is still even being discussed
IIRC its Djo who is still pushing this agenda;
================
@All
Do you actually find genuine town motivations for Djo constantly pushing this feud between Oats and myself back into the limelight?
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On February 07 2013 13:23 Djodref wrote:
The problem I have with you is not only the fact that you were flaming with Oats, defending yourself or whatever.
I don't see any reason for a town player to make these kind of comments if you don't honestly believe Oats is scum.
I want to tell you that you didn't address my point at all, that is you either gave advice to Oats to not looking scummy, either you painted him in read, and you don't explain your motivation for doing this.
Seriously, am I the only one who was surprised when Mocsta had a town read on Oats after all this ?
Are you saying all town players have to love each other? As I keep saying, ppl like me and Oats are going to prodding at each other every game regardless of alignment. We simply do not like each other, and we have not even met.
Im having trouble stomaching why you can not accept that; it actually really as intentionally misconstruing the feud.
As for being surprised I called Oats town; i think your quote below from me is indicative of what I thought. He was scum or bad town. When i was later asked to give a read, I considered everything and siad leaning town; a bad town player is town none-the-less. You have actually proven the basis of my read/decision and done the leg work for me. Thank you Djo.
On February 06 2013 13:39 Mocsta wrote:
A town player does it, because this is a challenging game, and we need to avoid mislynches.
So far, your play is about reacting to minute details in early-game posts trying to promote discussion. You are trying to shit all over them, without providing additional avenues for discourse. There is nothing solid in your play so far.
This leads me to think:
(1) You are bad townie / scummy townie - don't know any better
(2) You are bored - trying to troll
(3) You are scum - trying to derail
You don't typically try to troll; so its (1) or (3).
The win-con for town is to lynch all (3); and I already suggested prior we need to improve post quality to reduce the number of (1)s. Hence, either way, your current behaviour is a problem for town.
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On February 07 2013 13:23 Djodref wrote:
Regarding JieXian, his case his utter-bullshit, but he wants to lynch you and he is usually a lynch-bait. So I'm not going to worry about him unless he shows no interest in finding scum later on like last game.
Riddle me this.
If JX is lynch-bait for an "utter-bullshit case"; then why are you advocating Palmar again?
Why are you not giving him a chance to find scum "later"
Why are you being inconsistent; and sticking up for a 1 post lurker with bullshit case, vs 3 post troll with unfulfilled promise(s)
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EPT
