[T] MTG Mini Mafia II

On January 29 2013 09:31 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:
I would not use minds aglow right now, I think you should maybe save it until people have more mana and fewer cards in hand.

On January 29 2013 09:39 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:
collective voyage


never seen that card before but holy ass thats ridiculous

indeed a much stronger turn1 play but mulliganing does hurt you for later

On January 29 2013 11:38 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:


marv here. s&b has been hilariously absent of late and was supposed to teach me magic and hasn't. I plan to nag him though.

In other news, why are you telling mafia how they might look more townie? I don't understand the motivation behind saying what I bolded at all.

You're doing an awful lot of talking about what mafia should and will be doing.

On January 29 2013 11:49 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:


I haven't posted much because I literally found out the deck s&b submitted two hours ago.

In case you aren't mafia, here's a pro-tip: don't tell mafia what to do to make you consider them as townies. It should be fucking obvious, but here I am saying it.

On January 29 2013 11:58 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:


It wasn't a bad post at all. It was a good post. It's not my fault if you're too stupid to comprehend this.

The intentions behind my post were perfectly clear. I find it suspicious.

On January 29 2013 12:02 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:


you'll have to excuse me if i'm talking nonsense right now (magic noob ), but this post is what resonates with what i've been saying. Clockwork provided a framework for mafia to contribute in a sense they would find townie, and in a way (presumably) that could even be beneficial for mafia. I don't understand the townie motivation behind this

On January 29 2013 12:03 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:


No not really, I gave up trying to understand right away. Which is why i'm genuinely quite annoyed s&b hasn't been speaking to me recently.

On the bright side, I've already posted twice as much as I did the whole last game :D

On January 29 2013 12:15 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:


No, he seems to be posting too much to be mafia right now. I mean, he could be trying to take some weird control as mafia, but probably not.

On January 30 2013 02:06 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:
Sup bros i'm back
@marv sorry about not talking to you T_T I promise I'll do better from now on

A few things:
(1) Last game we tried a "town beast" strat where everyone gave their mana to one or two people to cast big things, on the understanding that those big things would be controlled by the town as a collective. This strategy failed miserably, and I propose we don't do it again.
Problems with the "everyone contribute to one person" that arose last time:
- The whole thing was subject to one person's judgement. Instead of having a vote or anything, the person who we gave power to (I think it was gonzaw? Not sure) listened to the people who he thought were town. Turns out at least one of those reads was wrong. I don't want to trust any one person to have "good reads", and there's no way of enforcing a "do what the majority tells you to" plan.
- The above is an even worse problem if the person we give power to is mafia.
- having one powerful person is easier to defend against (whether through persuasion or through MTG-playing) than having a lot of people who are slightly less powerful but who have a lot of different types of power (ie, decks)
- IMO the power of the town overall suffers as well, most mtg decks ramp over the course of a few turns
So, I don't like ideas where one person gets a shitload more powerful than everyone else. Regardless of whether or not they're mafia, they are likely to be wrong a lot of the time. We tried it last time and it didnt work.

Next, on the drawing cards thing:
- holy fuck that card is powerful. I thought each person only got as many cards as they paid for but if each person gets the total number of cards then holy fuck. Like, shit.
- I still think we should maybe wait a turn until everyone has played more cards and has more room in their hands, but given how much more powerful it is than I thought I guess I could see the motivation to do it this turn. We won't spend our mana until we talk about this more, at least.

Finally, a policy proposal.
I proposed this last game and people kind of ignored it but I still think it's a good idea. My proposal is to attack every turn with all your creatures.

This does a number of things:
(1) It's kind of like voting, in that it forces people to take stands they can be held accountable for. In a way these stands are even firmer than normal votes, since they result in lasting damage to people and you can't do a throwaway vote at your scum buddy.
(2) It gets damage down early and stops blocking. Since the mafia monster gets more powerful each turn, blocking hurts town more than scum. People should not block ever. If you have an ornithopter, it should be tapped and attacking for zero damage.

-snb

On January 30 2013 02:08 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:
oh also i really like the new attitude out of gonzaw - last game i had a huge problem with his "you're either with my ridiculous plan or you're scum" attitude, and it turned out he was wrong as well. if he was scum he could have just stuck with that same attitude, it would've given him plenty of cover to attack townies and suchlike, so i'm feeling townish about that (somewhat, at least).

On January 30 2013 04:36 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:


Put it this way, Artanis didn't even really know we were hydraing until after the game started, and didn't know our hydra name (nor did I).

On January 30 2013 05:00 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:


well that attitude isn't going to get you anywhere, dear. what did you think of s&b's policy post?

On January 30 2013 05:08 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:


Yeah, I can't add too much more to what's been said about Crossfire, I generally agree. I especially noted how Crossfire called himself a magic noob (like me) but then proceeded to wade in with some strange Magic waffle (unlike me).

I'm also not sure whether iGrok is on menopause, or maybe mafia:



Given he said this, all he's done is shout at people. This post from Grey rubbed me the wrong way, although I'm not sure how warranted I am to think so:



Like, gosh guys, I'm so excited to be playing, except I can't play for another 3 days yet, so definitely keep me around till then guys, right?

On February 01 2013 05:29 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:
I am a man of my word





Filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389088&user=296336

I mentioned a little thought experiment to Prome earlier (as soon as this Attack Phase started):

Let's ignore Aperture for now. He has 0 pressure on him, but isn't doing anything productive.
Cool, let's see what happens; but most of all, let's predict what could happen.
Now, imagine he's town. He's doing shit, and under no pressure. Hmm, this makes it the perfect opportunity for scum to jump on him and cast suspicion on him wouldn't it? Easiest way to appear you are scumhunting and contributing, and cast doubt on a town player that's under no pressure whatsoever.
*time goes on*
Well, it seems nobody did this, other than CH pressuring him a little bit.
Scum always pay attention to every townie in the game, so surely they paid attention to Aperture. By not going against him, then it can only mean they didn't want to go against him for some reason. Townies were just misled and forgot about him, but scum do not.
But what if he's scum? Surely those "misled" townies would still be ignoring him, but unless his scumbuddy wants to bus him, he would ignore him as well too wouldn't him?
Now we are getting somewhere...

Like I said, I am a man of my word. I said that we should let Aperture be and see what he does when he's:

• Under no pressure: Thus he won't have to spend most of his time defending himself and answering questions and the like. For instance what happened to Greymist last MTG game
  
• Not raging: Thus he can't hide his activity behind rage posts, or say he's "frustrated", etc. He can't hide his play behind his rage.
  

Well, and thus I followed this advice I made myself, and apparently everybody else did.
Now, what did Aperture do with all these things we did for him?: absolutely nothing

---

Let's dwell a little bit deeper in his play though:

1. Scumhunting



I already said this thing made me suspicious of him.
But it makes me even more suspicious of him now.

Back then, he said "I'd be scumhunting" to the question "What will you be doing with this turn?".
However, instead of actually trying to scumhunt, he just said he'd be scumhunting "in the future". This was scummy as fuck, but I let it pass a little bit, since he's iGrok so maybe that's how he plays.
However.....he certainly lied. He promised he'd be scumhunting this turn, but he didn't. Like...at all.

"But he made an analysis on Bin! He was scumhunting!"

Well, let's see his "analysis" shall we?


Wow, seems like a "great" thoughtful analysis does it?
Except it isn't.

First, his "spreadsheet analysis" is obviously bogus. He went through every single post of Bin, and just put a little tag on it. "Fluff" or "Wrong".
That is not analysis, and is fucking easy to do as scum, it's just mechanical.
Next his "tells".
He did seem to try a little bit to analyze Bin, but what his points were not that alignment indicative (Oats being "aggressive", the "deck lies", etc).

Not even that, but apparently iGrok has this "system" for a while. It's fucking easy for him to use it as scum, I mean, it's a blueprint for scumhunting. As scum he doesn't have to do anything, just let this scumhunting mechanism scumhunt instead of him.
He can just check every single post of someone and let his "Class Tell" system rate it, and then post the conclusions.
It needs absolutely no effort from him, and no actual scumhunting, he already has the "scumhunting" done for him by the system.

More "scumhunting"

Okay, let's ignore that "analysis" then. What did he do later? Check his filter.
He keeps arguing with Bin about the "contradictions" in Oat's play about Mind Aglow apparently. I won't discuss this, it may be valid it may be not. I certainly don't think it's that alignment-indicative

However, check the 3rd page of his filter......he stops
He just suddenly stops giving a fuck about Bin.



This makes it think that maybe he's changing his mind about Bin? Well he never says, and even contradicts this:



I thought this was a joke, but I don't know anymore.

Aperture's only read this whole game was Bin. He heavily attacked him and pressured him with that giant "analysis" of his.
Yet, then he completely forgets about him, never pressures him at all, not even when it's obvious nobody else thinks he's scum.

Then he posts that stuff above like he still thinks Bin is scum? Wtf?
He has no mention of Bin at all, which means he doesn't give a shit about Bin.
He doesn't give a shit about scumhunting, even though he promised he'd be doing early on D1 when asked about it

2. Talk about Hydras

Check out these posts:






He apparently believes in the "there is scum between hydras".
Not only that, he believes we should focus on the hydras.

That's perfect!.......so?

Where is HIS focus on hydras?
There is none, not even on Bin who he suspected earlier in the Main Phase!

He talks and talks about focusing on hydras but doesn't do shit about it. Again, he's not following up with what he says people should do!
Just like when he said he'd be "scumhunting" !

3. Reaction to Threats

Let me bring this post again:


I thought I was pretty clear with this.
I assume Aperture saw it as well.
Now, how would a townie react to posts like this that basically state they will kill you unless you do something?
You do something of course.

Like I said before, if that guy keeps pressuring you and attacking you, maybe you won't have the time/effort/will to do something, but like I said that's not what happened: I and others gave Aperture completely freedom to do whatever he wanted

Look at his filter again, and tell me if this is how a townie would play after being pressured and "heavily" FoSed in early game. Specially a "vet" like iGrok.


4. Greymist

Short entry here: There is no Greymist.
Like at all. Reminds me of marv in the previous game.
Yeah it may be true he's in Italy working or something, but I thought he could have posted something on his phone or talked with iGrok or something
His complete absence strikes me bad. This isn't a big point anyways, you can ignore it

5. Fluff and Blending in

Look at his posts from this Attack Phase. They are all trying to blend in, even if it doesn't make sense for him to post stuff like that




Like....this feels so out of place it's not funny
Aperture doesn't do shit at all, yet thinks it's important to address the issue about Crossfire's card?
It's so out of place.
And again, these posts seem like he's blending in, posting about what's "cool" at the moment to appear he's active

He also "promises" some analysis on Xfire and Nova but says he'll do it after work.
I guess Suck should instantly think he's scum for not following up with it wouldn't he?
The point is that you don't "promise" to do something like this in a remote future when it's already almost 72 hours into the game.

6. Lack of suspicion

This comes with what I said earlier.
If he's town, why would everybody just let him be? If he's town he's playing so "bad", that a scum is bounded to attack him at some point

I mean, remember the last MTG game. Greymist "played bad", and scum Toad jumped on him very fucking easily and tunneled him until he died
I would have thought at least 1 scum would try to do something here

But no, EVERYBODY IGNORES HIM, EVEN SCUM.
This is very weird if he's town, but not if he's scum.

7. Fake "Rage"

Ah, the "rage" post:



Okay, this came out of nowhere. We discussed with Prome about this, and he said it could be genuine or not, but it's still weird as fuck. Many people ignored it but I'm putting attention on it again.









What's with this aggression? Where the fuck does it come from? Out of nowhere
Why is he saying shit like "I thought your head was less far up your ass than everybody elses" to people completely unrelated to his "rage"?

Remember, his rage apparently was against me+Prome for having a 6 page filter at the time and posting every thought of ours, thus making it harder for him to read the thread

So why the fuck does he get angry at Bin? It doesn't make sense
Like I said it doesn't make sense to be this angry out of nowhere for a stupid reason that's not even a big deal in this game (me+Prome hadn't spammed the thread that much, we didn't feel anybody would get angry at us spamming yet).


One thing that catches my attention though: this rage never happens again

Me+Prome have a 10 page filter, and it's "N1" (by normal game standards).
Apparently Aperture's "rage" about "everybody ruining his fun" came only once, and then it doesn't matter at all?

I mean, me+Prome are still "posting a lot" and "posting every thought that comes to us", so why isn't he getting more angry at us?

Well, remember the time he made the "rage" post: People were pressuring him.
CH thought he was scum because he was so opposed to Minds Aglow for "bad" reasons or something
Others thought he was scum for other reasons

So now he "vents" his frustration.....on me and Prome about how we post a lot

Now that nobody is pressuring hi, apparently he's all fine and dandy with me and Prome posting all of our thoughts every single time.

This inconsistency in him is scummy as fuck, specially how he's "angry" about a completely unrelated issue when he's pressured, yet when he's not pressured that issue apparently doesn't matter at all for him

---

Conclusion:

Kill him as soon as possible
Now I'm attacking him for 1 damage

I hope when Crossfire gets here he attacks him with 3 damage (well...if he's town at least).

Tomorrow I want him dead.
I have 3 Chain Lightnings right now, which I can use tomorrow when I cast a Mountain.
That means 9 damage to Aperture, leaving him at 10-7 HP (depending on whether Cross attacks him). I guess other players can easily kill him tomorrow if he has that low HP.
P.S: He could put another Mountain and get 2 red mana to redirect my Chain Lightning, but that makes him open for attacks since he won't be able to cast anything

Like I said, I am a man of my word.
I said I'd leave him alone and let him do his thing. If by the end of D1 (or N1 now, hell I even gave him more time to do shit than I said I would) he didn't do anything, we would kill him
That's precisely what I will strive to do.

Hope you guys join me, or at the very least discuss this shit

##Attack Aperture Science with Grim Lavamancer

/gonzaw

On February 01 2013 05:53 Clockwork Hydra wrote:
Okay. My play this attack phase has been mainly focused on getting iGrok, Marv and SnB to actually do stuff. It was a dismal failure and they need to be looked at again tomorrow. However, they're not the most likely scum in the thread.

The main reason we didn't post this earlier is because we really want Xfire to attack with his shitty little creatures, so he takes the full 9 damage, rather than being able to block and reduce our killing power tomorrow. We had no real need for anybody else's input on this, because both of us came to the conclusion that Xfire is almost certainly scum independently of one another's reads.

---

Xfire is scum and will die by Zombie Apocalypse

We went over his filter and noticed a number of things

1. The utter lack of contribution.
2. Defensive and apologetic posts excusing him from contributing.
3. Anger about the length of the thread.

This gave us scum vibes, but we needed comparison material. The alternative was that he is just a really bad townie with no clue. However, I have never seen a clearer meta case in my life.

In Xfire's town games (like PU or WLIIA) he contributes to scumhunting, is having fun and joking with his fellow players (as Gonzaw rightly noticed). What Gonzaw forgot is to look at Xfire's scum games. There are 2. Mario Mini and Newbie XIII.

Dandel's writeup (using just Mario Mini, but the same shit is in Newbie XIII):

• lurks/doesn't do shit, cites being busy RL as a reason:
  
  On November 14 2012 10:54 Crossfire99 wrote:
  I'd like to apologize to everyone for not being here until now. Real life's been crazy busy, and I've only now had a break to play some mafia. It looks like we're having a productive day 1 because there's almost 40 pages I have to go through. Any tips for going through it? I am planning on going through all of it before I post my reads on people, unless you think it's better to read it in chunks and post my thoughts on those chunks. Yeah I really want all of your opinions on this because I've never been so far behind in any game before. I mean this game has been longer than the total length of most of my games I think. It's actually kinda intimidating...
  
  
  
  
• asks the thread (=town) to do his work for him. wants to appear interested while not actually doing anything probably?
  See the same post as above: "please summarize the first game for me"
  
  
• weaksauce cases Note that the second one comes with a bonus apology for not doing shit.
  
  
  
• being a (winy: edited in by Acro) bitch about his supposed RL issues (internet) here and here
  Basically he was a whiny fuck about not being able to play "as much as he would like", in mario due to his internet supposedly blacking out on him, in mtg too lazy to even invent a reason, just says he's busy RL.
  

Acro adds: the post that we quoted in that list completes the trifecta of Xfire's shit that he does as scum and not as town: wine about the length of the thread.

In closing: Xfire is scum and will be ripped apart by zombies

Zombie token feasting on Xfire's ribs.

On January 29 2013 14:20 Crossfire99 wrote:


I don't like this post by Gonzaw (?) because he's saying people shouldn't defend themselves. This is like a townie who is getting lynched and not fighting it. You have to fight the lynch to save yourself and help town in the process. In this game, a lynch is like everyone attacking someone, so I think people should play their decks to the best of their ability and when we find scum, we all attack him because I doubt scum can withstand 7v1. I mean if scum can withstand that, how is this game balanced lol?

On January 29 2013 14:27 Crossfire99 wrote:

Uh, yeah unless I'm not understanding the magic part correctly. Basically, what you seem to be advocating (feel free to correct me if I misunderstood you) is that people shouldn't play cards which can keep them alive longer. This would be the equivalent of someone fighting to survive a mislynch in a regular game. You don't just want to roll over and die. That only helps scum.

On January 29 2013 14:38 Crossfire99 wrote:

Oh I understand what you mean now. Yeah people should definitely take a stance and attack a scum read if given the chance. I probably won't be as harsh as you in saying that no one should play defensive creatures, but if someone only defends himself and never attacks, that will definitely play an important part in how I view them.

On January 31 2013 08:03 Crossfire99 wrote:


YOu know what gonzaw: I just got home. I'm sorry that I don't have all the freaking time in the world to play this game. I need to catch up now. Stupid accusations like that...ah...seriously. Idk what to see. I already made my position clear on Join forces earlier

On January 31 2013 08:19 Crossfire99 wrote:


Seriously, you want me to use mana for Join Forces, when I think Clockwork is the most scummy as of right now. Oh hey what's this post by you to suck:



This makes no sense seriously. I'm just...lask;dfjkl;sdjlakj.f...aaaaaarrrrrrgggggggggggggg...why are you attacking me for playing according to my reads...ajdsfljdfiopjdoajfp

On January 31 2013 08:25 Crossfire99 wrote:

I have a freaking life and it is pretty busy right now. I played at night when the started 2 days when i had time. I played at night last night when i had time. Now i am playing just when i got home. I really really really really really lrajljafl;dsfjal; klaldsfj want to attack you right now just cause of the crap you just said, but I know that is just me not thinking clearly because of what you said, so I'm not going to decide rihgt now. ughguigho

On January 31 2013 08:33 Crossfire99 wrote:

I'm according to my reads at this time, which happen to be the smae as the big last post because I haven't had time to play since then. Seriously. And thinking about it some more right now. Clockwork's whole be careful about powering invidual people up and then asking everyone to do it to him reminds way too much of strong from WLIIA, except here clockwork had the balls to tell everyone to be careful of just what he was doing this game. Strong in WLIIA at least didn't try to say bewware of the very thing he was doing.

On January 31 2013 08:39 Crossfire99 wrote:

Your right Gonzaw. Sorry, for getting so angry. There's a lot of crap going on irl causing me to be stressed and i'm getting way too pissed off at people saying where's crossfire. crossfire isn't here. crossfire needs to post more becaues I know i am literally using every free moment to play this game.

I hope we can have a clean start from here and i will try not to let me emotions get the best of me. Feel free to call me out again if I get too angry again. I don't want to play like that.

On January 31 2013 08:44 Crossfire99 wrote:


I chose to cast the monsters I did because they were the only ones I could cast this turn (and I didn't want to give my mana towards minds aglow). You'll have to ask Risen why he put Shaman in the deck, but Shaman can do more than just do 2 damage to everyone.

On January 31 2013 08:48 Crossfire99 wrote:

Don't worry about it, I understand we're cool. Time to get back to reading so I can answer your questions in an informed manner.

On February 03 2013 04:06 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:
Anyways, I'm lazy so I'll post the "interesting" stuff I found about Xfire:

1)Yesterday he didn't attack with his 3 damage, nor defend himself against Clock's zombies. You might say he didn't defend so he'd have his shaman to do shit, but he could have defended with the goblin, specially since it relates to my next point.
Also, since he did ninja-cast last day, I assume he was active in the Attack Phase at some point. I don't know if to believe his IRL busy shit or believe he was lurking every now and then. Even so he could have attacked with his 3 KP when he was active (if as scum he knew he wouldn't be active).
It's weird how he didn't attack Clock, his "scumread" he was so pushing when he freaked out at me, which would be 3 free damage to a townie by scum. Unless he thought Clock would block with zombie tokens and destroy his Shaman? Dunno

2)As soon as this T2 started, Xfire claimed scum with the Soul Syphon and stuff.
This was WAY too sudden if Soul Syphon was the card he drew this T2, you don't plan to out yourself as scum in 10 seconds like that after receiving that card.
My point: Xfire and scum planned Xfire outing himself ever since the T1 Attack Phase, already having drawn Soul Syphon and maybe Soul Warden with Minds Aglow

This bit may be interesting to see how the other scum would react in T1 AP.
If they already planned on outing Xfire as scum, I'd think his scumbuddy would have no problem at all in instantly bussing him with all his might, considering they knew every townie would know he was scum just 1 cycle later.
Or maybe not? Dunno, it's what I want to discuss with Prome, and might as well let you guys know to see what you think


/G

On February 03 2013 04:10 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:
I had this funny conspiracy theory about Clock being Xfire's scumbuddy setting himself up to a late-win.

Xfire wouldn't attack him T1 since he's his scumbuddy. Xfire would WIFOM about him being scum today to confuse us and then say "lol I was telling the truth you dumb townies!" in post-game.
Also maybe Clock didn't actually want to attack Xfire on T1, but when they figured out they could out Xfire as scum he posted the "Oh actually I'm not suspicious of Suck (who I said I wanted to attack this turn), in fact Xfire is like confirmed scum!" case late-T1.
Also like half of the people were suspicious of Clock for some reason at some point (some reason I could never figure out), so hey maybe they were all right, right? And maybe I'm a dumb townie who just can't catch scum.

It even seems to "fit" too much lol.
It's funny if it's true though (if it is then I should be Town MVP for being the first one to figure it out )

/G

On January 30 2013 14:43 Crossfire99 wrote:
-snip-

Now onto some scum hunting. Let's take a look at Clockwork shall we. Look at the contradiction at how he responds to virtually the same question: + Show Spoiler + and this + Show Spoiler +. Why is he so upset that I asked that question when before he thought it a completely relevant and important question to spend some time on a serious response? There is no reason for such a disparity in opinion.

Also, look at this post where they advise caution when powering up a single person + Show Spoiler +. Then look at how they throw caution to the wind and say everyone trust us and do what's best for us because they would benefit disproportionately from this Minds Aglow play with tons of mana put towards it + Show Spoiler +. I mean it's not even 3 hours into day 1 yet. It would be one thing to just advocate power plays, but the fact they warn against them and say to be really careful, but then instantly say to back theirs is ridiculous.

Lastly, I already showed before how their attack on me was bad and all of this definitely has me thinking Clockwork is the first scum.

On February 02 2013 00:17 Crossfire99 wrote:
So here's where we stand, we need to find 2 mafia. It is turn 2. We acomplished nothing on turn 1. From all the reading of thread I came to the conclusion taht clockwork is the most obvious scum. He might have a strong position in the game, but if we really work together and focus him down, we have a chance of turning this game around.

On February 02 2013 03:17 Crossfire99 wrote:

Not going to even defend yourself against my accusation, scum? I see how it is.

On February 02 2013 05:03 Crossfire99 wrote:

Sorry, but I can't let scum kill me with his zombies after all.

On February 02 2013 05:14 Crossfire99 wrote:

Didn't read the op, scum?

On February 02 2013 05:22 Crossfire99 wrote:

Thanks for that. Totally didn't realize that lol.