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Hapahauli
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Hapahauli
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Hapahauli
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I'm not sure if anyone's brought it up, but I watched Palmar's video and was really surprised he skipped over one of his posts in his analysis: On December 10 2012 16:28 Djodref wrote: @ WBG If I take your word for jay and assume that you are not scum yourself, I'd say that I don't have huge concerns about anyone at the beginning of this game. Why did you single out Palmar among all the people who didn't participate yet ? What about Bluelight, Z-Bo, Munk-E, Vivax and Tunkeg ? All of them scum by elimination ? The underlined bit is a very strange thing for a townie to say. Townies are a naturally suspicious folk, and a line of reasoning that assumes someone is not scum really goes against this mentality. Of course I'm not going to judge him on one post, but if there's anyone I could call a scum-read right now, it would be Djo. | ||
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Regarding your cases: I rather like the vivax one. The quotes you laid out look like he's trying to jump on the bandwagon without looking bad. Also, voting someone because they liked something that grush said is... well... lol. I'm less convinced by the one on WBG. Hesitancy to lynch someone =/= scum. I think it was one of the newbie games you were in (where a bunch of townies were hesitant to jump on kush's scumslip) that should give you my thoughts here. Bugs play so far seems to be a general hesitancy to lynch someone, then being afk for a while, then coming back and being lost. It's a bit alarming, but I don't think it's damning by any measure. By contrast, vivax's mentality seems to be more "scummy" on his vote. He goes from a soft defense to being very sure and comfortable with his vote. That behavior IMO is more along the lines of scum-mentality. | ||
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I never said it was a good idea >> | ||
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On December 12 2012 13:34 Z-BosoN wrote: It's not just hesitancy to read someone. I feel you responded kinda fast and didn't really go over the case. I'm more interested in the subtleness in which he included adam in his lists, which is in complete contrast with the mindset that he disliked adam as a lynch target earlier on, especially without any occurrences in the thread to suggest this weird change. He also disappeared into a time that I presume would have been fairly risky for scum to participate in. It's rather hard in my position to understand such "subtlety" since I haven't been in the thread. I'll catch up, read his filter, and get back to you. My initial impressions are as previously stated though. | ||
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1) Adam posts a case on Vivax shortly after dropping his "confrontation" with debears: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=24#463 Vivax is under some fire already, and it would be a really strange play for Adam to go after a hypothetical scumbuddy like this when there were plenty of other targets to chose from at this point in the game (Tunkeg, Jay, etc). Unless all these guys are scum, the Vivax choice makes very little sense if Vivax is scum. 2) He posted a dry-erase board picture of an "analysis web" of the Thrawn "incident" earlier in the game. That says try-hard townie to me. | ||
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Town d00ds Thrawn - Duh. debears - Duh. Djodref - This one probably needs some 'splainin. The shit that he pulled at the end of the Day 1 lynch in no sane way came from a scum player. He was really enthralled with this idea of starting a last-minute wagon on a player when it was clear that adam would be getting lynched. I can't see hypothetical scum Djo pulling stuff like this, since he would have known that Adam would flip red. The dynamics of the game suggest that Adam was bussed by scum in the later hours. Djodref's play is far too attention-whoring and suicidal to be from scum. In addition, there are posts like this... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=13#260 ...where he displays a really convoluted thought process that I attribute more to town than scum. Palmar - He's definitely capable of bussing his own, but he didn't even make an attempt to go for another target but Adam. Much different from what I saw of his scum-play in Rockband Mini anywho. Clarity - His posts just seem pretty townie overall. Solid logic, really patient and well-thought out reads. Palmar's video goes through his early-game pretty well. And there are gems like this: On December 11 2012 09:57 Clarity_nl wrote: WHAT THE FUCK I GIVE UP FUCK YOU HE MADE THE READS WITHOUT KNOWING HIS ALIGNMENT, HOW CAN HIS READS THAT HE MADE BEFORE READING HIS PM BE ALIGNMENT INDICATIVE Vivax - I explained my read on Vivax earlier... On December 12 2012 14:36 Hapahauli wrote: Around page 24 - leaning town on Vivax in spite of Z-Bo's case for two reasons. 1) Adam posts a case on Vivax shortly after dropping his "confrontation" with debears: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=24#463 Vivax is under some fire already, and it would be a really strange play for Adam to go after a hypothetical scumbuddy like this when there were plenty of other targets to chose from at this point in the game (Tunkeg, Jay, etc). Unless all these guys are scum, the Vivax choice makes very little sense if Vivax is scum. 2) He posted a dry-erase board picture of an "analysis web" of the Thrawn "incident" earlier in the game. That says try-hard townie to me. His voting actions are a bit weird (being convinced to vote Adam by Grush is quite sketch), but I can see a town thought-process of just wanting to not no-lynch. marv - Marv voting Adam early (2nd?) doesn't strike me as a scum move. Marv is capable of bussing plays, but a D1 bus of adam with plenty of other lynch options seems like a bit of a stretch. A possibility for sure, but not too likely methinks. green - He hasn't done much, but his vote on Adam gave me a town feel. On December 12 2012 07:39 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: Adam Baaaaaaahhhhh. He doesn't attempt to glorify it or justify it - he's candid about the whole thing, and that strikes me as town. Null Reads Jay - He seems like a pretty easy mislynch as town in his other games. He's not done much allignment-indicative in my eyes. Maaaaybe some townie points for being the hammer-vote on Adam, but that's about it. Tunkeg - Another wishy-washy player from what I've seen of his meta. I do like his "martyr" post quite a bit, because based on his general "mentality" as a player, I feel it's not a type of post that a player like him would make as a scum. Though I haven't seen a scum-game that he's played, which is why I'm a bit more hesitant. Maybe slightly townie, but nothing like the guys above. Grush - He's been on Adam from the get-go, and I'm unsure what to think of it. That would be a town-tell for most players, but this is Grush, and part of me thinks that he has a little extra info. On December 12 2012 06:25 grush57 wrote: That's pretty reasonable. I'm a bit cautious of Bluelightz because he is a vet. Jay strikes me as a foolish townie and Tunk is probably a noobie. I want to vote Adam because he is reminding me of his scum play. Like this post... seems... too... reasonable for Grush? This is probably crazy on my part, but having seen him play Mafia LVII, his nonsensical town play there is pretty fresh in my mind. Z-Boson - His play is not alignment indicative so far. He's capable of bombing the big cases as town or scum. What will be telling in the future is if he can maintain good logic in making those cases. Scumreads Bluelightz - I realize he's lynch bait (and I tunnel'd him to death when he was town in Rockband), but in this game, I find his play lines up real neat with a scum agenda. In his opening post, he spreads suspicion on four different players: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=12#238 He posts a bunch after that, but never follows up on any of the suspicions he pushed in that thread. Notably, he never pushes the guy whom he put his vote on (jay). His vote on Adam also feels like a bus vote, a nice little agreeable and uncontroversial vote when the bandwagon is gaining steam. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=33#648 WBG - I get very scared when a vet gives me no reason to think he's town, and this seems to be the case with WBG. He has a case on a "lynch-bait" player in Tunkeg, but that's about it. His play is very "clean," and as the leader of one of the main counter-wagons to the Adam lynch (and given that I have no reason to think Tunkeg is scum at this point), I'm inclined to think WBG is scum. | ||
Hapahauli
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On December 12 2012 07:39 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: Adam Baaaaaaahhhhh. He doesn't attempt to glorify it or justify it - he's candid about the whole thing, and that strikes me as town. | ||
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Thoughts? Djodref - This one probably needs some 'splainin. The shit that he pulled at the end of the Day 1 lynch in no sane way came from a scum player. He was really enthralled with this idea of starting a last-minute wagon on a player when it was clear that adam would be getting lynched. I can't see hypothetical scum Djo pulling stuff like this, since he would have known that Adam would flip red. The dynamics of the game suggest that Adam was bussed by scum in the later hours. Djodref's play is far too attention-whoring and suicidal to be from scum. In addition, there are posts like this... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=13#260 ...where he displays a really convoluted thought process that I attribute more to town than scum. | ||
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On December 12 2012 17:19 thrawn2112 wrote: Hapa: I don't understand why I am "duh town" status... people have been calling me town ever since my incident at the start (which I can understand) but they've continued to do so without talking about anything else I've been doing... can you elaborate on your read? Yeah sure thing - the whole "miller" thing just reads like a really misguided gambit play (townie). In addition, I just can't see you pulling that as scum, given your (our) scumgame in Mario Mini. | ||
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On December 12 2012 17:25 thrawn2112 wrote: I'm not convinced. He made some wishy washy commitments to the adam lynch that he didn't follow through on and I disagree with your read on how attention whoring or suicidal djo was being. He was mostly being ignored with all of his attempts to get a different lynch going. In looney he bussed his scumbud the entire game and argued against the main lynches because he was being ignored and was able to get away with it. Yeah I understand he was being ignored, but you don't post stuff like this and assume you will be ignored: On December 12 2012 08:06 Djodref wrote: Anyone up for a counter bandwagon on jay ? ##Unvote ##Vote Jay On December 12 2012 08:43 Djodref wrote: I'll switch back my vote to Tunkeg if you guys change your mind last minute for the time I'm taking a shower ! ##Unvote ##Vote Tunkeg On December 12 2012 09:23 Djodref wrote: And, seriously guys, you still prefer to lynch Adam to jay after Adam's latest post ? Counter wagon ! GO GO GO ! ##Unvote ##Vote jay Mind you all of this within 1-2 hours of the lynch, and when it was clear that Adam was going to hang. | ||
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On December 12 2012 17:32 Tunkeg wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 12 2012 17:05 Hapahauli wrote: All caught up! Here's the read dump: Town d00ds Thrawn - Duh. debears - Duh. Djodref - This one probably needs some 'splainin. The shit that he pulled at the end of the Day 1 lynch in no sane way came from a scum player. He was really enthralled with this idea of starting a last-minute wagon on a player when it was clear that adam would be getting lynched. I can't see hypothetical scum Djo pulling stuff like this, since he would have known that Adam would flip red. The dynamics of the game suggest that Adam was bussed by scum in the later hours. Djodref's play is far too attention-whoring and suicidal to be from scum. In addition, there are posts like this... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=13#260 ...where he displays a really convoluted thought process that I attribute more to town than scum. Palmar - He's definitely capable of bussing his own, but he didn't even make an attempt to go for another target but Adam. Much different from what I saw of his scum-play in Rockband Mini anywho. Clarity - His posts just seem pretty townie overall. Solid logic, really patient and well-thought out reads. Palmar's video goes through his early-game pretty well. And there are gems like this: Vivax - I explained my read on Vivax earlier... His voting actions are a bit weird (being convinced to vote Adam by Grush is quite sketch), but I can see a town thought-process of just wanting to not no-lynch. marv - Marv voting Adam early (2nd?) doesn't strike me as a scum move. Marv is capable of bussing plays, but a D1 bus of adam with plenty of other lynch options seems like a bit of a stretch. A possibility for sure, but not too likely methinks. green - He hasn't done much, but his vote on Adam gave me a town feel. He doesn't attempt to glorify it or justify it - he's candid about the whole thing, and that strikes me as town. Null Reads Jay - He seems like a pretty easy mislynch as town in his other games. He's not done much allignment-indicative in my eyes. Maaaaybe some townie points for being the hammer-vote on Adam, but that's about it. Tunkeg - Another wishy-washy player from what I've seen of his meta. I do like his "martyr" post quite a bit, because based on his general "mentality" as a player, I feel it's not a type of post that a player like him would make as a scum. Though I haven't seen a scum-game that he's played, which is why I'm a bit more hesitant. Maybe slightly townie, but nothing like the guys above. Grush - He's been on Adam from the get-go, and I'm unsure what to think of it. That would be a town-tell for most players, but this is Grush, and part of me thinks that he has a little extra info. Like this post... seems... too... reasonable for Grush? This is probably crazy on my part, but having seen him play Mafia LVII, his nonsensical town play there is pretty fresh in my mind. Z-Boson - His play is not alignment indicative so far. He's capable of bombing the big cases as town or scum. What will be telling in the future is if he can maintain good logic in making those cases. Scumreads Bluelightz - I realize he's lynch bait (and I tunnel'd him to death when he was town in Rockband), but in this game, I find his play lines up real neat with a scum agenda. In his opening post, he spreads suspicion on four different players: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=12#238 He posts a bunch after that, but never follows up on any of the suspicions he pushed in that thread. Notably, he never pushes the guy whom he put his vote on (jay). His vote on Adam also feels like a bus vote, a nice little agreeable and uncontroversial vote when the bandwagon is gaining steam. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=33#648 WBG - I get very scared when a vet gives me no reason to think he's town, and this seems to be the case with WBG. He has a case on a "lynch-bait" player in Tunkeg, but that's about it. His play is very "clean," and as the leader of one of the main counter-wagons to the Adam lynch (and given that I have no reason to think Tunkeg is scum at this point), I'm inclined to think WBG is scum. WTF do you know about my meta? Have me and you ever played a game? Have you read through my games after being replaced in (while you just now have been able to read up on this game)? Also you say my meta is wishy washy, lol. Are you sure you haven't skimmed through the scum QT and have misunderstood what they wrote about my meta? Yes I skimmed a couple of your games. Whaddya think I"ve been doing for the last few hours? | ||
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On December 12 2012 17:37 Tunkeg wrote: I thought you would be reading up on this game. A couple of hours to read up on this game and knowing all about my meta though is pretty impressive stuff. Unless you are just full of shit... Woah woah buddy, I never claimed to be a meta-expert on you or something. | ||
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On December 12 2012 17:40 thrawn2112 wrote: It's that your opinion on tunkeg seems too well informed considering that you just replaced in That seems like a pretty big jump considering what I posted. I have a null read on him after all. Though him flying off the handle about something that strikes me as odd considering the material that I posted. | ||
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On December 12 2012 17:45 Tunkeg wrote: It is that I am finding your meta-read on me strange, and wanting to let the thread know. Also you elaborating on it is somewhat informative... Ok strange yes, but it's a bit funny given that I've never been attacked for putting too much effort into a read. Kinda funny really. But calling my read strange is one thing, but you're seemingly flying off the wall and taking it personally. | ||
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On December 12 2012 17:45 thrawn2112 wrote: hapa do you have any comments on this? On December 12 2012 17:16 thrawn2112 wrote: I don't like this post. Djo says that he has two options.... 1) that thrawn used the fakeclaim as a probe to see how people reacted to it 2) thrawn is lying scum What I have issue with is he says he's going to go for the first option, but gives no reason for doing so. Then he asks thrawn why thrawn fakeclaimed. I don't see any purpose in djodref asking thrawn that question if djodref is assuming thrawn is town. He even gave thrawn the answer thrawn would need to assuage djo's doubts. He did the same type of thing with with boson later on in the thread. My point is that djo dances around the possibility thrawn is scum but assumes he's town and is strangely interested in why he "fakeclaimed." Adam did almost the exact same thing... he questioned thrawn about his motives (adam trying to appear useful) but wasn't interested in the "is thrawn town or scum" aspect of the issue. Djo then pressure voted thrawn even though he though thrawn was town... this looks like fake scumhunting. Eh I think you're missing the point of that post. He says he's going with his first angle "for the moment," presumably to see what possible townie motivations you could have for doing what you did. Also he pretty clearly doesn't assume your town, since he pressure-votes you later down the line. It seems pretty different from what Adam did, since Adam was pretty much implying that you were scum while he was questioning you (without explicitly saying it of course). | ||
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On December 12 2012 17:51 thrawn2112 wrote: I pretty much agree exactly with your town list except for one or two others I might ass to it. I disagree with the scum read on bl. You say his play looks like a buss.. I think it looks like he was sheeping palmar. He mentions palmer again when he votes. I also think the timing of his vote looks too early to be a buss. At the time he did it I was still pretty uncertain about who was actually going to be lynched and that's not a good time to buss if you don't need to. Well sheeping Palmar is at the very least non-alignment indicative. The main issue that I have is that he posted four suspicions to open the game and never followed-up on a single one. | ||
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On December 12 2012 17:57 wherebugsgo wrote: my play is clean, so I'm scum...the fuck? I could play like a retard, but no one likes when I do that. "Clean" in the sense that you're not taking any risks. You're not going out of your way to comment on multiple players or make additional reads - you stick to a case on a player who looks like a lynch-bait candidate throughout D1. The reality is that I hold vets to a higher standard. Your play doesn't read like a wild and engaged townie - it looks like scum trying to blend in. If you're town, it's on you to prove it in the next few days. | ||
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On December 12 2012 17:59 Tunkeg wrote: TBH I don't care to much about your reads. When I am assessing you your reads will be part of my assessment. But for now your reads are your reads, I agree on some of them (obviously) and some I don't. But I can tell you this much, I like that you posted some reads, it will make it easier to read you further down the line. Well I'm interested in some of yours though. Particularly the ones on Djo and Vivax, since I'm drawing the opposite conclusions from some folks in the thread atm. | ||
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On December 12 2012 18:04 thrawn2112 wrote: Scum bl would be sheeping a vote for his scumbuddy? I missed the implication behind "at the very least non-alignment indicative." What is the other end of the spectrum? A sheep vote on a scumbuddy is non-alignment indicative. I think it was in a situation that could very plausibly (and likely IMO) be a bussing attempt. But the point of the statement was to have you consider the 2nd point - that he opened the game with a bunch of suspicions and hasn't said a word about 'em since. On December 12 2012 18:01 thrawn2112 wrote: No, he thought I was town the whole time. His first read on me was: "My first reaction to thrawn post was "yeah, obvious scum" then I thought that he might not have been serious at all. A one liner for a miller claim doesn't look real, regardless of his alignment. The way he answered "nvm, then" shows that he is carefree about it." The other issue is him asking why I did it and pressure voting me to find out. He later says the town motivation he thought I had was that that I was hoping to attract pressure from scum. This was based on a post I made from looney. So if he thinks I'm trying to attract scum attention, why would he vote pressure me so that I'll announce it to the thread? I think you're trying to attach a logic to his post that really isn't there. My reading was that he pressure-voted you to "confirm" what he thought you were thinking. Though, I'm still not considering him scum based on his actions at the lynch deadline. His play just seems straight-up suicidal if he was scum. | ||
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On December 12 2012 18:07 thrawn2112 wrote: hapa remember that time I sent you 50 pms? I have a feeling that this game might seem a little bit like that Yeah it's certainly shaping up that way lol Well it's probably for the best, since apparently Munk-E didn't do a good job at establishing that he was town - guess I have to do it for him then | ||
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On December 12 2012 18:18 wherebugsgo wrote: How have I blended in when I made probably the strongest counter case to Adam? I didn't have to do that. If I was scum and wanted to blend in I could've just bandwagoned on what was clearly the easiest lynch of the day and taken massive town cred by bussing Adam. Instead I chose to pose an alternative because I actually took a stance on someone other than Adam. Everyone found him scummy. I found someone else scummier. And, in fact, Tunkeg's play is still quite erratic. Making a case on lynch-bait isn't "sticking out" by any measure, and I have no idea why you're representing your play as such. Also, these "I would have done this as scum" arguments ring pretty hollow. Secondly, the thing I absolutely hate about this type of jubjub logic is that it only makes sense when you don't think. Why are people attacking me? Because I was the only notable person who didn't hardline against Adam. This is confirmation bias. We saw a scum flip, and now everyone thinks that anyone who was late to the wagon or considered killing other people is scum. Sure, that's normal when there's resistance, but when there was never any resistance to begin with usually it's the people who sheep without reason who are the scum bussing. I.E. VE. I actually had concrete reasons to be voting Adam and I was one of the first players to make my opinion on him clear. The fact that I ultimately chose not to vote him is actually not scummy, because trust me, I'm pretty fucking lazy as scum. People aren't attacking you because only you didn't go after Adam. You haven't been very active, and you've spent most of Day 1 tunneling lynch bait. Also, lazy as scum? From what I've heard, you're one of the better scum-players around these parts. So, think about it for a second. You think I'm scum and you apparently hold me to a higher standard than other players. So, what exactly have I done that is not up to your standards? I'm not taking risks? You don't need to take risks to play town! In fact, taking risks is full on retarded as town. I don't think anyone on this forum understands how I operate as scum, seeing as everyone and their mother accuses me of wildly different things as both alignments. I'm notoriously "hard to read" because my play doesn't boil down to "lazy as scum and active as town" unlike the vast majority of other players I'm not saying that everyone should take "risks" by pulling a Thrawn and claiming miller. But townies (especially veteran townies) will stick their neck out and try to comment on a bunch of things, make reads, tunnel multiple players... etc. When I say you haven't taken any "risks", you haven't done anything but tunnel lynch-bait. | ||
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On December 13 2012 01:27 Djodref wrote: @ Hapa Can I ask more details about how you went from this to this ? Also, I would like to know if you had ever read the Looney Lynching Mafia game ? Don't you feel like you are maybe the only one with a town read on me ? What do you make of it ? Sure thang, I changed my read when I caught up in the thread. In particular, I hadn't read the actions around the D1 lynch, and that's what convinced me you are town. Yes I loosely read Looney. I really don't care if I'm the "only one" with a town read on you, because I think I'm right. | ||
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I'm going to have to dive Paranoia Mafia a bit to see if the situations are similar. I will say that all his "I'm not good as scum" mentions in his defense rub me the wrong way, but the WBG thing is coming together a bit too easily for my tastes. This could be due to the influence that Palmar has in the thread atm, but never hurts to check yourself for some confirmation bias. | ||
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On December 13 2012 05:12 wherebugsgo wrote: it's like I don't exist or something or I just exist to get called scum :p + Show Spoiler + hint: I've been calling him town since before you were even in the game Uh brownie points for you then? | ||
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Throughout your recent day filter, you seem to be awfully trusting of me despite having some serious reservations about Munk-E. Care to explain? Also regarding Paranoia, you seem to be pointing that "the same shit is happening" in your defense, but I fail to see the similarities in gameplay. At the end of Day 1 in Paranoia, you had just over 1 page of filter. I also think this quote is rather telling of your town mentality in that game: On December 01 2012 15:17 wherebugsgo wrote: it's always amusing when on day 1, every time I roll town, I get the same shit for the same stupid reasons. There is a pattern to how I play town: I don't say anything useful for almost all of day 1 because on day 1 I like to observe. That's why my opening votes are usually intended to create reactions, and while they almost always are intentional and on pseudo-scum reads when I post them, my day 1 reads usually change very very quickly. It's also amusing that every time I roll scum no one calls me scum and then I get shot by some faggot 3rd party or a vigi who is scared of my scum play. So then I see things like this... I haven't been very active? THE FUCK? I have been far more active than probably everyone else in this game. Yet, you call ME "not very active"? LOL. ...which is super odd for two reasons. 1) you really haven't been all that active - you've had ~2-3 pages of Day 1 filter. That's far from "more active than... everyone else in this game". 2) It seems to go against your stated "town mentality" that you like to sit back, be less active, and observe the thread. | ||
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On December 13 2012 06:44 Vivax wrote: You see, Hapa, you pretend that everyone has to behave consistently throughout all his games, while it's practically impossible to do so all the time. Same as Z-Boson saying that town is more likely to play consistently, which I frankly think isn't true. You're looking for differences in what he said between a game and another. I'll tell you something, there's a 99 % chance that you'll find an inconsistency about EVERYONE in this thread if you just dig enough. Yes, go find some about me instead. Now don't get me wrong, I like your efforts at scumhunting, I just think that your last argument is pretty shit and shows that you're cramped in trying to find every little thing to throw at bugs. You're probably gonna ask: "Well, Vivax, why the hell do you have a townread on him?". I don't have one yet, but it would also help your cause if you stopped writing weak-ass posts managing to make them that big when all you have to point out is an inconsistency between a sentence in a game and a sentence in this one, which I don't think is very reliable. Maybe you're just trying to save your ass since Munk-E played so badly and are desperately trying to look like you're contributing, explaining all the drama about the stuff. Chill down mate, a day are two days of time to get a good vote rolling. I think you're missing my intentions here. I'm more trying to inquire into his mentality than looking for any reason to call him scum. If I was dead sure he was scum, I probably wouldn't be asking him questions. Fact is, I'm unsure, and I have to probe into anything I can. On December 13 2012 06:48 wherebugsgo wrote: He was fairly inactive and didn't say anything of substance. You're the polar opposite of that. I like to observe on day 1. That hasn't changed, you can observe while posting. Clearly though I did something wrong last game, since I got lynched. So, this game I've been more proactive about that. (not like it's helping currently) Also I tend to post a lot regardless of alignment so it doesn't really say anything. However 3 pages for day 1 is almost always a lot for anyone. I don't know what kind of spammy games you've been playing, but in most games I've played I've had the most posts or close to it-if you think 3 pages on d1 is not a lot, then clearly we have different definitions of active. (I'm also curious as to where you are getting your benchmarks from, since in almost all the games I've played, I'd define "active" as about a page of filter per day.) In the games I've been in, I'd say an active player in a mini is 5+ pages of D1 filter. 2-3 pages is pretty average. You also claimed you were more active than anyone else here, when players like clarity, debears, thrawn, marv... etc... all these guys were far more active than yourself. | ||
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Oh and this. Well I guess you (WBG) don't know my meta, but I'm fairly active as scum as well. It feels rather strange to have someone trust me so quickly ya know? No one ever trusts me =( | ||
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On December 13 2012 07:06 Vivax wrote: Yes I totally think we should be defining the standard measure of activeness in this game. Even worse than policy discussion. Le sigh. WBG claimed he was more active than virtually everyone in the thread in his defense. I pointed out this is clearly not the case. Inquiring into misrepresentation is useless because? | ||
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On December 13 2012 07:26 Vivax wrote: I'd also like to add that I've got a townread on bugs even before reaching half of his filter, so I'll join him in calling the people suspecting him a bunch of dumbasses. That seemed to work pretty well for you yesterday /w Adam | ||
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On December 13 2012 07:34 jaybrundage wrote: Oh no your threating me after refusing to quote im soooo scared Jay just answer the question. It sounds like you're trying to pick a fight for the hell of it, and it's doing no one any good. | ||
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On December 13 2012 08:39 Z-BosoN wrote: What kinda question is this? He'll be scummy when I see scum mentality from him. You have played with him before, right? Do you think he's scum? Do you think he bussed Adam? What marv is getting at is that BL entered the thread spreading suspicion on four players, and never mentioned them again when he comfortably parked his vote on Adam. That seems like scum mentality to me. But what makes you think BL is town? | ||
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On December 13 2012 08:42 Palmar wrote: btw, if for some reason I get shit Bugs VE Djodref are all good lynches Can you explain Djo a bit? I thought his end-of-D1 antics seemed fairly town, even if stupid. | ||
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1) If he's the mafia vigi, he risks a counter-claim from a possible town vigi 2) Why would mafia vigi bugs, when they could waste a lynch on him today? Pretty sure Clarity's town. | ||
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On December 13 2012 10:24 Palmar wrote: Let's move down the list then, VE seems like he's not done anything good all game. Yes, but neither has Tungken or Bluelightz. I get some town vibes from VE willing to sheep you so candidly. Whereas from the other two... not so much. | ||
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On December 13 2012 10:23 Hapahauli wrote: Clarity's vigi claim makes no sense from a scum perspective. 1) If he's the mafia vigi, he risks a counter-claim from a possible town vigi 2) Why would mafia vigi bugs, when they could waste a lynch on him today? Pretty sure Clarity's town. On December 13 2012 10:24 Palmar wrote: yeah I guess. | ||
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I'll get things rolling on Bluelightz I suppose. I find his play pretty scummy so far. ##Vote Bluelightz Also Jay, who's your top scumread after this whole fiasco? | ||
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I'll need to sit down and take a look at his meta. His light-heartedness struck me as town, but I don't know enough about his play in context to make a good decision on him. | ||
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On December 13 2012 10:41 Palmar wrote: Like I'm wondering if there was some point in time where scum decided to bus adam. who joined early, who joined late etc. Adam is fairly self-admonishing about his own scum-play from what I've seen in games (CT Mafia) and one of my very limited PM correspondances with him. I wouldn't be surprised if he was rather willing to get bussed. | ||
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On December 13 2012 10:45 Vivax wrote: By lightheartedness you mean his general disinterest in hunting scum even though he regularly posts in a way that suggests he wants to? Or voting for people without giving a damn about them afterwards. Which is why I need to take some time and take a look at him | ||
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Djo... I still think his D1 lynch actions are townie. There was that series of "COUNTERWAGON GO" posts that seem suicidal from a scum perspective. One could certainly interpret it as him not giving a shit about who gets lynched other than adam, but I just can't connect a mentality of Djo knowing Adam was scum, knowing that Adam was the clear leader to get hanged, and then going off and pulling the stunts that he did. | ||
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@ Jay I do want some answers for some things I found in your filter however: On December 12 2012 08:11 jaybrundage wrote: Hm I think BL would of been a good lynch, Im leaning town on thrawn. Adam honeslty im not sure on but I dont want a no lynch. ##Vote Adam You seemingly pull your read on Bluelightz out of a hat here. I haven't seen you mention BL in your filter except for the fact that he was a lurker. Can you explain what you were thinking of bluelightz at the time, and also what is your current read on the guy? | ||
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On December 13 2012 11:51 Z-BosoN wrote: Hapa, can you elaborate? Why do you think that Tunkeg looks worse now that WBG has flipped? Part of the reason I was leaning town on him was because I agreed with his read on WBG (martyr post). Since it was wrong though, there's not much else in that post of substance. Some obvious town reads, obvious scum read in Adam, seemingly easy case on Jay... it looks far less townie than it first appeared to me. | ||
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On December 13 2012 12:01 Z-BosoN wrote: So if he had given wbg a town read, would he have been looking better atm? I'd say he would have looked better if he expressed some more doubt or skepticisim. On a second readthrough of his filter (WBG-tunnelvision-off), his martyr post reads a lot like "oh since I might get lynched, I'll finally bother to post some reads." | ||
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On December 13 2012 12:21 Z-BosoN wrote: Reading his filter, he seemed 100% confident that bugs was scum, asking to put vig shots on him, etc. Do you make this to be a scum excuse to not post any real content (which he hasn't done so far) or a town who really actually thinks bugs was scum? The confidence is odd, but other people I have town reads on also did the whole "Bugs is totes scum" deal. If there's anything scummy about his reads, I'd say the "Palmar is confirmed town" stuff is quite a stretch. Like I have a town read on Palmar, but confirmed town is pretty redic. | ||
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On December 13 2012 12:25 thrawn2112 wrote: Idk, I don't expect smart town to try and direct night actions like that I'm reading into it more as an attempt to contribute with incredibly non-controversial statements. | ||
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On December 13 2012 13:22 jaybrundage wrote: EBWODP ##Voting Clarity Will get a case when I have more time. Jay. If you're actually voting the claimed vigi, you're an idiot. | ||
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What happened to your Vivax case? | ||
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On December 12 2012 08:06 Djodref wrote: Anyone up for a counter bandwagon on jay ? ##Unvote ##Vote Jay On December 12 2012 08:43 Djodref wrote: I'll switch back my vote to Tunkeg if you guys change your mind last minute for the time I'm taking a shower ! ##Unvote ##Vote Tunkeg On December 12 2012 09:23 Djodref wrote: And, seriously guys, you still prefer to lynch Adam to jay after Adam's latest post ? Counter wagon ! GO GO GO ! ##Unvote ##Vote jay | ||
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@ Hapahauli Why didn't you comment on WBG's confession just before the flip ? I thought WBG claimed scum, and I really didn't want any part of the conversation until the flip. I try to avoid kicking players while they're down - it's something I've done in the past, and I regret it alot. | ||
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On December 13 2012 10:23 Hapahauli wrote: Clarity's vigi claim makes no sense from a scum perspective. 1) If he's the mafia vigi, he risks a counter-claim from a possible town vigi 2) Why would mafia vigi bugs, when they could waste a lynch on him today? Pretty sure Clarity's town. If Clarity made a last-minute claim to save his skin, MAAAAAYBE I could get behind you. But the fact is, he claimed in a situation where he had everything to lose and nothing to gain. | ||
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On December 13 2012 18:13 VisceraEyes wrote: I missed that in the hullabaloo. 1) That means nothing because this is a semi-closed setup. There could be more than one town vigi, so the counterclaim thing is not relevant. There's little risk in a scum Vigi claiming a shot he ACTUALLY took because we have no way of knowing if they're scum or town. 2) Why would Mafia vigi one of the stronger town players? So he can't defend himself and avoid the lynch? Maybe turn it around on one of them? Scum removing a vet from the game in a NON LYNCH situation is actually extremely strong. 1) If you think there are likely two vigi's, good for you. However I really doubt that's the case, and gambling on there possibly being 2 vigis in the setup is not something mafia want to do, much less when Clarity did so. 2) So what exactly makes the alternative not likely - that a town Clarity shot the top scumread of virtually everyone in the thread. Shooting WBG was a fine play given the suspicions of the thread. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=25#489 | ||
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On December 13 2012 18:24 VisceraEyes wrote: 1) I don't know if it's likely, I'm saying it's possible and therefor terrible play for any vig to counterclaim. It's not about Clarity "gambling" on there being two vigs, it's about the scumteam "knowing" that it's possible and relying on that to keep a vig from counterclaiming. 2) The fact that it was Bugs makes the alternative not likely. I think it's much more likely that scum Clarity shot strong townie Bugs at an opportune time for scum to make a play like that than a town Clarity shooting a veteran scumhunter without giving him a chance to defend himself and find us scum. And regardless of whether you believe Clarity is scum or town, that makes the scum KP debears yes? You're telling me that you believe that scum shot at debears and ONLY debears? 1) Why would it be bad play for a vig to counterclaim here? Closed setup or not, I really doubt there's more than 1 in a 16 man setup. 2) It doesn't matter who the guy is - the top scumread of the thread got shot on N1. How is that not completely normal? Plus Clarity's a new guy - it's not like he knows who Bugs is. Hell even I've never played in a game with Bugs. As for the debears thing, I've given it some thought. The way I see it, there are two possibilities: a) scum only shot at debears. I find this unlikely, given the risk of leaving a hypothetically town marv+Palmar alive b) scum vigi'd debears and shot at marv. This is what I'm thinking happened. | ||
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On December 13 2012 18:32 Bluelightz wrote: As for your chance B, who would be that scum vigi? How the hell should I know? That's just the best way I can make sense of the night actions. | ||
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On December 13 2012 18:43 Palmar wrote: oh right, I thought you meant he was trolling me about misusing the words, which I never do. I want to add this thought about Tunkeg's martyr post. Remember that if we assume he is scum, he knows bugs and I are both town, so what are the implications if I fail to stop the wagon that at the time was on him and swing it over to Adam? If he's scum he leaves a lot of things to be considered if he flips, and "opinions" on two loud town players between Bugs and I. My initial thoughts were that if he is scum, he wouldn't dare leave such strong opinions on us, especially as I had already voiced my suspicions of Bugs, and scum calling him scum then flipping scum would probably make me rethink the issue. I still feel the most reasonable explanation is that Tunkeg isn't scum. In one sense, I agree, however Adam left us with something pretty similar as well. I guess my objection to the martyr post is the attitude of - "oh I'm getting lynched, guess I'll finally get around to provide some reads but w/e I'm dead I'll be playing dota" | ||
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G'nite | ||
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Bluelightz on the other hand is ripe for some lynching. Lynch-bait or not, he's one of the few players in the game that hasn't given me any reason to think he's town. Tunkeg being the other, but I rather like that last longer post of his. | ||
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On December 14 2012 02:11 Z-BosoN wrote: And you were saying his concise read on WBG made him look worse, that he'd be looking much better if he had a more flimsy stance: Palmar is saying the exact opposite: Which is the "sense" you agree with Palmar about about? The "sense" is just Palmar's perspective on things that I really hadn't thought about too much. That being said, sleeping on things, I pretty heavily disagree with Palmar. Scum can very easily take strong stances on things since they know what's up. It's not like they were original opinions either - most of it was just a re-hash of everything that's been said in the thread. | ||
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Why do you find people going after Clarity a scumtell? It's certainly proves stupidity, but not scumminess. | ||
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Palmar is confirmed town! Like Palmar is a town read, but confirmed town is a huuuuuge stretch. Palmar is basicly confirmed town for me at this point. If he was scum he could have easily pushed me with the rest of you. As he stopped reading before he got to me in his video. If he did in fact read his PM after that video, and had flipped scum I think he would be going with the flow, and going for me. If there is a JK in this game he should definately jail Palmar to protect him from harm. He is the town that scum will be gunning for, 100%. 100% sure that WBG is scum, no doubts! On December 12 2012 16:02 Tunkeg wrote: Boom! That was a great lynch! Now WBG is 100% scum. Look how hard he was pushing for me after Adam got in trouble. Look how he kept including Adam as his 2nd read, while not ever pointing out why he thought he was scummy. He did this because Adam was very obv scummy, and wbg not mentioning adam as scummy would look really bad for him. Also look at adams read post how hard he tried to distance himself from wbg, "agreeing" with my read on him. Also look at how wbg have presented his arguements (word twisting and misrepresenting facts) and his silly "80% Palmar is scum". WBG must be lynched day 2. Palmar got to be protected if we got a jailkeeper. Also if we got a cop look into someone trying to push my case, voting me and/or push/vote some other case after Adam got mentioned in Palmars video. Is sure that scum doesn't have a vigi... WHAT? On December 13 2012 18:36 Tunkeg wrote: So WBG was a jk this game. So my entire scum or stupid analysis on him was wrong. He turened out to be just stupid. Also anyone doubting clarity's claim is stupid. There is no reason at all for a scum clarity to claim such a hit. He had alot of towncred allready, a missed hit like this would only put him back on the radar. Scum don't have a vig, as they would have taken out Palmar with it, doublestacking. Or perhaps some other vet they view as dangerous. With no vig they went for the best safe option, taking out someone who by pushing Adam early was looking very townie, and who wasn't likely to be protected. | ||
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Now there's Djodref. There are more things I find scummy in his filter than BL, but there's also some things I find townier too. I know you haven't finished your stuff on Djo, but this comment I think is pretty telling of his play. Players like this often are just attention whoring townies rather than scum. | ||
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On December 14 2012 11:21 thrawn2112 wrote: definitely but i'm undecided between him and boson Mind elaborating on the Boson read a bit? | ||
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On December 14 2012 11:35 marvellosity wrote: I think you're just making that heuristic up ;p Well that's more my general observation in the last few games I've played. The players who are giving me conflicting reads are often town. The ones who give me no reason to think they're town are the ones that are scum. BL and Tunkeg are falling into the latter category for me. Djo the former. | ||
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On December 14 2012 11:45 Djodref wrote: I also think that Hapa could be buddying me because He spends more tiㄷ defending me than fi.ding scum. But I still thi.k that my previous point for a town munke is valid. Hapa, I appreciaye your read on me but I would like you to find scum. Honestly I think that BL ahas the least cjances to flip scum among Bl Tu.keg and Ve. Would you like to lynch VE today ? I"ve made my reads really really clear. VE's giving me more of a dumb town vibe than malicious scum. I want to lynch Bluelightz, but Tunkeg is rapidly climbing my list and is a clear #2. | ||
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##Vote Tunkeg | ||
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We gotta fix that | ||
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Nah I thought you were doing the whole "VE is being VE" thing. But good to know we're on the same page. | ||
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Djo as previously stated seems too attention-whorey to be scum. VE I had as very slightly town yesterday, but I'll have to read over recent interactions and whatnot. | ||
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On December 15 2012 05:16 Z-BosoN wrote: @Hapa Yes, quite. I dunno if you already mentioned Jay, but what do you make of him? Some town vibes. He's pretty off-the-cuff in his interactions. His play hasn't been stellar, but his town-play historically gets him lynched early and often. This is someone I'll have to dive a bit. | ||
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This is the second time he's pre-lynch martyring with several hours to go. Pretty comfortable he's scum at this point given his unwillingness to respond to any case against him, and wanting to lynch me as if he already knew VE's alignment. | ||
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On December 14 2012 14:43 jaybrundage wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote Z-Boson Mind telling us your "reasons," 'cause this reads a lot like you don't give a shit about your vote rather than you actually voting for someone you think is scum. | ||
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On December 15 2012 08:21 Z-BosoN wrote: If I f5 the preview page I lose my content I think controltab + f5 is the real deal :D I abuse this like a crack-whore | ||
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On December 15 2012 08:24 Z-BosoN wrote: Hapa while we're gathered and proud What do you make of vivax? I'm getting scummy vibes again from him. his town read on palmar is kinda weird given his filter Pretty convinced Vivax is town. His reaction to Bugs trolling us at the end of N1 seemed really really genuine. | ||
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On December 15 2012 09:02 Bluelightz wrote: Frankly I don't care when I do participate. My challenge is just not getting mislynched while looking at scum. Well in Rockband, you posted some cases and were trying to do something. This game... not so much. | ||
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On December 15 2012 09:30 jaybrundage wrote: Nope nope nope. My reason last time was to stop a no lynch. We didn't have enough to lynch adam until i stepped in. Also if tunkeg is scum like adam was scum. Why wouldn't I want to keep the lynch on him. Im just following what town wants to do. (If town is indeed the reason we reached this majority) Back to catching up. Oh and if anyone is curious. On my Z-Boson Vote yesterday. It was just a pressure vote. If so, then this is a really really stupid way to pressure-vote someone. Like what were you even trying to accomplish? On December 14 2012 14:43 jaybrundage wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote Z-Boson | ||
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On December 15 2012 10:08 jaybrundage wrote: Time to vote Palmar? Not time to vote Palmar. I'll have to look between jay, VE, BL, and Z-Bo for the next scummer. I was planning to post question VE about one of his posts if Tunkeg flipped red. That sadly didn't happen, but the post seems relevant regardless: On December 14 2012 16:21 VisceraEyes wrote: After looking at Tunkeg's filter, it's mostly blah. Not even in a bad way or good way...just blah. The only thing I don't like about his filter is nicely summed up in Hapa's post on the guy - his periods of absolute certainty that he shouldn't have if he's town. His "martyr reads" and Adam's reads ended up being strikingly similar, but Tunkeg's came first and Adam flipped scum. He MIGHT be scum, but I'm not really interested in lynching him today. I prefer to see ZBoson flip before making a final judgement call on Tunkeg. If I can't get a ZBoson lynch and Tunkeg is the only other alternative however, I would vote for Tunkeg. The bolded is a pretty strong statement. I'm not sure if it's just poor wording or not, but he seems to be putting some heavy suspicion on Tunkeg, then dancing around the issue in favor of Z-Bo. | ||
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##Vote VisceraEyes | ||
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On December 17 2012 08:19 marvellosity wrote: Are you not even going to attempt to explain yourself? I have. Not enough time to devote to the game at the moment. I totally am coasting along, and I will be until tomorrow afternoon. I'm totes town though. | ||
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You said my vote on VE came out of nowhere, but you missed this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=97#1925 That took me 15 seconds to find. What gives marv? | ||
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On December 17 2012 08:24 marvellosity wrote: :/ Convincing. The "I'm going to admit to being scummy because scum don't do that" defence. Excellent. I'm admitting to being busy, not scummy. I'll do my part before the lynch deadline. | ||
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Asked him a question about something rather scummy in his filter Change my mind on VE when a) VE doesn't respond and b) Palmar (who knows his meta far more than I do) thinks he's "sure to be scum" Then I voted VE. Don't see what's wrong with that | ||
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On December 17 2012 08:32 marvellosity wrote: so you're sheeping and abandoning your previous scumread on day 3 based on an unanswered question? ok. Unanswered question + Palmar yes | ||
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On December 17 2012 08:35 marvellosity wrote: ugh. It's so hard to see where the sheep start and the scum stop. Other ppls? While I hate to use this defense (and it drives me nuts when people say it to me), I just have to here: Do you honestly think I'd be this blatantly sheepy as scum here? | ||
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On December 17 2012 08:39 marvellosity wrote: Given you've done it in a fashion that only I have picked up on, probably yes. you'd almost got away with it because this town isn't picking up on things. Well apparently you think I'm less self-aware than I actually am. Anyway, me justifying my laziness/business won't get us anywhere. I'll be back tomorrow afternoon with some stuff. | ||
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Marv, please just ignore him. Please. | ||
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Djo, what about your case isn't explained by the fact that I'm busy? Apparently everyone in this game thought I was playing very pro-town and townie up until a period of about ~48 hours ago, at which point I had to start studying for finals and Witchraft Mafia began. So what's the logical conclusion here? That... a) I (as hypothetical mafia) arbitrarily decided to stop playing despite doing very well for myself b) I (as town) became busy | ||
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On December 17 2012 21:06 marvellosity wrote: Honestly the more you try the less I want to lynch you. I can't really disagree with anything that you or thrawn have said about hapa. "why would i purposefully, blatantly, be so shit" is not a defence either. I'll cross fingers you're not doing some bus here, and join you on Hapa. ##Vote: Hapahauli Marv, I refuse to believe that you're being this awful. You of all people should know that I'm psychotically active as both allignments. | ||
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1) Munk-E I can't defend Munk-E's behavior, beyond the fact that he played nearly identical in a newbie game and got mislynched for it. 2) Active Lurking I wasn't lurking until I became busy. In fact I was one of the most active players in the thread after I replaced in. I currently have a 48 hour period where I haven't been able to devote as much time to the game. In about 4-5 hours, I'll be back to my active self. 3) My Buddy, except for today Again, busy. Also, it should be really obvious from my filter who I want to lynch and who I think is town. I have stated you're town, and I still believe you are, since you're giving 1000x more of a shit about the game than anyone else in the thread. 4) A few weird arguments What about those arguments are weird? I didn't want to kick a player while he was down. Seems pretty normal to me. Also, way to pick out one quote from my thousands of justifications over why I think you're town. 5) Not on the front line Exact same thing as #2 - I was on the front line until I became busy. I will be active when I get out of my final in 4-5 hours. Until then, hold the panties. | ||
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On December 17 2012 21:58 marvellosity wrote: Yes, and when you're playing differently from either alignment you usually play, and the differences are scum traits, and not town traits, what then? Let me answer your question with some more questions: 1) What do you make of my early-game? Apparently you and everyone else thought it was very townie. That's cause it is. 2) What about my play so far isn't explained by the fact that I have a final in an hour? | ||
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On December 17 2012 22:04 marvellosity wrote: The fact that this game is in a very important stage, and you're making 50 posts in Witchcraft for every one you bother making here? Two games + studying for a final is a little two much for me. I bit off much more than I could chew work-load wise. Once I'm done with my final, I'll get back to participating more in this game. Until then, I can only devote my attention to one game. | ||
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On December 17 2012 22:05 Djodref wrote: You were not busy, you were derping in the Witchcraft Mafia thread. I think that the deal is done over there, you could have spared the time to come playing here. It's hard for me to focus on two games at once. Again, just because I can play one game + study at the same time doesn't mean I can play two. | ||
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On December 15 2012 10:09 VisceraEyes wrote: :/ Like, I wasn't super convinced he was scum myself, but what the fuck. I'm rereading....fucking AGAIN. This is the exact same thing he pulled in Chrono Trigger as mafia. Somewhat coincidentally, I was also afk for some periods in CT Mafia and multiple players called me scum for it in the same fashion as what you two (Marv + Djo) are currently doing. | ||
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On December 17 2012 22:11 Djodref wrote: @ Hapa Why did you not push VE lynch harder yesterday ? You could have the perfect argument. Mafia players like to go after a lynch that is not going to happen. They look concerned, but this is just a perfect disruptive behavior. And this is an argument you should have made and pushed to lynch VE yesterday. Because I was busy. HEYYYYYYY. Also, I push lynches really really hard as both mafia and town. Ask marv. | ||
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On December 17 2012 22:12 marvellosity wrote: I find it baffling you'd choose a game you just started playing over a game you're already in that's in a crucial stage, if you're town. The temptation for scum to drop-off in activity, or choose one game over another, on time constraints is obvious enough. Unfortunately I really can't answer this question without going into detail about Witchcraft (a tad against the rules). So I'll just ask you to use your imagination and think of other reasons for the difference. | ||
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On December 17 2012 22:14 Djodref wrote: Anyway, I think that both VE and you are mafia. I wouldn't mind you to write an overkill case against VE. My problem is not only your inactivity today, but the fact that in the few posts that you have made, you never defended me today. And, given what's happening in the other game thread, don't tell me that you cannot concentrate on 2 games. I can't study + concentrate in two games. I was studying all weekend. Now I'm just sitting in a classroom waiting for the proctor to get here and sipping coffee. It's not a glamorous defense, but it's the truth, and that's why I haven't been defending you. Also, there's no overkill case on VE. He's inactive and he hasn't given me sufficient reasons to think he's town. Well anyway, since we both think VE is scum, can you just vote VE and let my play in the next few days do the talking (if I'm alive of course, which it looks like I will be)? | ||
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On December 17 2012 22:20 Djodref wrote: Bleh, sorry for this... But you have made some posts here today. What was preventing you from stating that I was a mislynch ? Busy-ness. I know it might seem like "oh hapa could have just popped in and given a word" but think about this for a sec: It's finals week. Law school finals week. The less things I have on my mind, the better. I really forcibly tried to cut my involvement with this game in order to study. I'm not naive to the fact that such inactivity on its face is scummy. I totally understand what you're thinking. However, you also have to realize that 1) inactivity is uncharacteristic for me as either allignment and 2) my play has been very pro-town up until I started finals. In face of this, the logical explanation should be that I'm town and ran into RL issues that prevented me from being involved in the game. If I keep up with my inactivity, you have every right to lynch me for playing terribly. However, I'll be done with a final in 4 hours and have much more time to post and be involved here. Sorry to make you wait, but RL > Mafia any day. | ||
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On December 17 2012 22:26 Djodref wrote: @ Hapa What was preventing you from stating that I was a mislynch today ? You should have said it if you were really caring of this game. How come you had a town read on me all this time ? How come that you didn't reassess your read on me with Palmar's case on me ? Or marv being suspicious of me ? I explained the first bit already in my previous post. As far as the town read, I think you've been a blitheringly obvious town. I've stated many times why I've thought so in my filter. I straight-up disagree with Palmar. I understand how your actions could be interpreted as anti-town (vote-waffling late in D1) but I disagree. | ||
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And as for Munk-E, read his newbie game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381931&user=87525 ...in which he got mislynched D1 as town. Then get back to me about his play. | ||
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On December 17 2012 22:28 marvellosity wrote: Screw this. We'll see what Hapa comes up with later and if I have to phone post to change votes or whatever then that's what I'll have to do ##Unvote ##Vote: VisceraEyes <3 Thanks for the BOTD marv | ||
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On December 17 2012 22:38 Djodref wrote: Blew, Marv just went back to lynch VE. Yeah, but I also lied by omission to Palmar. I have also pushed a lynch on Tunkeg quite hard, and he turned out to be town. I mean, there was way enough stuff to make you doubt. Like, I was supposedly your main scum read at your first read of the thread. How could you give up on this view for all the game ? You know my alignment, that is all. It fits too well in a scum agenda, just defending the townie which has a town read on you. I've done it before, you are doing it now. You were my first scumread based on a horrid misreading of one of your posts before I caught up. Also, what about my reasoning on my town-read of you is bad? I've spent plenty of time justifying it, and I've gone very violently against good players in defense of it. I don't back down from reads I believe it. As far as "fitting in a scum agenda," I don't really get it. If VE is scum (seemingly), and you're town (as you say, and as I believe), what about my actions are pursuing a scum agenda? Also, you act as if a townie can't have a controversial town read on someone, which is really really stupid. | ||
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On December 17 2012 22:46 Djodref wrote: I'm sorry to say this to you, but you replaced the guy that made this post. I cannot let this go. People made this mistake in the Mario Mini. Not lynching me for what thrawn has done. I understand your frustration. Objectively, wouldn't you lynch Munk-E for this post if he wasn't yourself ? But, yeah, you look more town that VE, but you didn't come defend me today. That is a fact... ##Unvote ##Vote VE It looks like we can consolidate better on VE for today. He better be mafia. But yeah, I'm going to go after you hard tomorrow. Objectively I understand why you'd find a post like that suspicious. However it's Munk-E. I would need much more than that post to lynch a player like Munk-E, since he's capable of doing those things as town, just like he did this game. | ||
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On December 18 2012 00:16 marvellosity wrote: I'm less confident in today's lynch right now than I was on the previous 2 days though :/ (and yes I know I was wrong yesterday) Hard to be confident when there's no OMGUS involved xD | ||
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On December 18 2012 05:57 grush57 wrote: VE is pretty scummy and I guess no one wants to lynch dejoejoethemojo. ##Unvote ##Vote: VisceraEyes Well the guy has either played the greatest 24 hours of mafia ever, or he's town. He's given more of a shit about this game than anyone here. No way I'm going to lynch him over a guy who promised a read-dump and didn't deliver. | ||
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ofc. | ||
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On December 18 2012 08:05 thrawn2112 wrote: i dont like ve's claim, it seems too easy to pull off Well it is rather risky given he's one counter-claim away from an insta-lynch. I wouldn't dismiss his claim as an outright lie until I see some more from him. | ||
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This is true. Also Djo brought up the point that VE never attempted to defend him (Djo) the entire day. I'm not sure if that's due to VE being afk or just lurking though. | ||
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On December 18 2012 08:23 Djodref wrote: We could try to lynch Hapa instead. Would you be ok for this one, Z-Bo ? The problem is that we are going to miss votes, afaik marv is not here... Who would vote Hapa here ? Well that's rather sad. I even showed you how lynch-bait'y Munk-E was and you're still fixated on that post. | ||
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On December 18 2012 08:34 thrawn2112 wrote: i wanna see if we can lynch hapa And why do you think I'm scum? Munk-E is lynch bait. You know that, I know that, and there's an entire newbie game filter that shows just how "scummy" he can be as town. But you ignore that, and you're too lazy to go through my filter to actually find why I'm scum. | ||
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Djo. Everything in that case can be explained by the fact that I was busy. Otherwise, you want to lynch me based on a comment that Munk-E made. Lynch-bait, that replaced out of the game probably because he was struggling to keep up with the thread. Based on his newbie filter and replacing, surely you can see that such a post could come from town Munk-E. | ||
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On December 18 2012 08:40 thrawn2112 wrote: i've already made the case against munke and I think it's too much against him to dismiss it as him maybe being scumbait. you aren't pushing reads and your explanations for your reads are way less substantial than normal. also i still want an answeer to my question about why you might want to lynch jay. are you accusing me of being scum right now by saying i'm too lazy? No, I think you're town. I'm accusing you of being lazy. When you say "pushing my reads less than normal", that also includes my scum-play. I push my reads hard as either allignment. Hell my lack of pushing is entirely explained by me being busy. As for Munk-E, it's a case on an inactive lynch-bait player. Read his newbie game filter, and you'll see he's capable of doing exactly what you're accusing him of doing as town. I want to lynch jay because his tunnel on Djo felt really forced. He's also afk for critical moments of the game (such as now) and he hasn't given me any reasons to think he's town. That's only if VE steps up though. | ||
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On December 18 2012 08:44 thrawn2112 wrote: hapa... ve is not stepping up. you should just buss him imo my vote's on him dawg. The whole "eh you're scum" act is wearing really thin | ||
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On December 18 2012 08:48 thrawn2112 wrote: hapa I don't see it... check voting thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=387205¤tpage=5#91 Read you idiot. | ||
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On December 18 2012 08:48 VisceraEyes wrote: This is funny, coming from someone who wanted to lynch me for the latter part of LC because of how "scummy as shit" I was in that game, as town, BUT OKAY BRO!!! You have a lot of time to post quips at random people, but apparently not enough time to make a post about why Z-Bo is scum. | ||
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On December 18 2012 08:39 VisceraEyes wrote: Ugh - I can't. I keep getting sidetracked, and I'm at work. I've been typing up a reads post for an hour and all I've accomplished is the TLDR I posted earlier and reasserting (not further explaining even) my ZBoson read. I'm sorry town, I've failed you. Where are these reads? You're active and in the thread, yet you can't post anything that you previously promised read-wise? | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371260¤tpage=127#2521 Didn't see a breadcrumb anywhere. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371260¤tpage=98#1955 ... mentions no crumb. | ||
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Where's VE's crumb in LC? | ||
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Jay's reactions so far don't seem scummy. He's setting himself up to draw alot of attention to himself regardless of how VE flips. Even Z-Bo seems alright. ...and who else? Bluelightz? Seems like a coin-flip. | ||
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On December 18 2012 09:45 thrawn2112 wrote: what do you think about a move to hapa? What do you think about making a case on me you dickwad? | ||
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On December 18 2012 09:43 marvellosity wrote: this is why it's good play you retard Part of me doubts that scum-Jay could pull this off well. But objectively speaking, is a person hard-defending seemingly "obvious scum VE" against the entire thread likely to be scum? Think Ottoxlol from LVII | ||
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On December 18 2012 09:49 jaybrundage wrote: Hapa get off of VE be a hero :O I'm not no-lynching under any circumstances. | ||
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On December 18 2012 09:51 marvellosity wrote: again, this is why it would be a good play and it'd be fucking VE orchestrating it. And it's the fact that intelligent people against you fight against the idea that make it good. Seemingly afk VE orchestrating a grand plan with a player like Jay... I'm not really buying it. | ||
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On December 18 2012 09:52 marvellosity wrote: sigh... you're so shallow minded, it's irritating Has VE come up with some grand plan like this in any previous games? I understand that it's possible, but I don't understand how it's likely. | ||
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On December 18 2012 09:59 marvellosity wrote: hey Hapa, ever checked out VE's signature before? No, I know next to nothing about his meta. That's why I'm asking. | ||
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I have no idea why I posted that. | ||
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On December 18 2012 10:12 Djodref wrote: Ok, it feels good, but I have to take a rest now. We have to assume that there are two scum players left, and right now I'm leaning on jay and Hapa. Well you have yet to respond to the fact that Munk-E is lynch bait. Been waiting for a while on it really. | ||
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On December 18 2012 10:18 Djodref wrote: I'm going to read Munk-E previous games, but his post where he votes Adam just reeks of mafia mentality. Like, VE was the scum vig, and you can almost guess it given how obsessed he was with the role. Munk-E mentions "scumbddies bussing Adam" because he is certainly bussing himself. Read Munk-E's games. Also keep in mind that Munk-E replaced out, probably because he didn't have enough time to play the game. You were also strangely ready to accept VE's fakeclaim, for someone who was very critical of our play when Dandel made his fakeclaim in the NMM XIXX game. A claim isn't something you automatically dismiss. It's something you have to consider. The stuff on Dandel was because you guys instantly accepted his claim and never questioned it. You'll notice that I never moved my vote either. I wouldn't mind lynching jay before you tomorrow, but you have to seriously step up if you are town. But I'm going to reassess my reads given this flip before the deadline. The majority of your stuff seems to be "Munk-E was suspicious." Being hesitant about the VE lynch isn't a reason to think I'm mafia. It proves that I'm capable of thinking, but that's it. So go through my filter, and find a reason why I'M scum and get back to me. | ||
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On December 18 2012 10:20 Djodref wrote: Find me some scum and I'll change my mind. Maybe... Well I was the first to vote VE today (in-thread, forgot to put it in the voting thread initially). You seem to think it was a bus, but why would I turn down a seemingly easy opportunity to lynch you, given that Palmar was convinced you were scum? | ||
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On December 18 2012 10:43 Djodref wrote: Maybe you thought that it would be better to stick on your tow read on me ? How could you after me ? The thing missing in your filter, and that's scummy, is you taking my defense today. VE should have done this if he was scum. You should have done this. I don't buy your "I was busy" thing. Just not yet. Anyway, you just have to find the two remaining scum to convince me that you are town. Who would you pick right now ? So I'm scummy for not pushing mafia objectives? There's a reason why I wanted to lynch VE and not you. Well anyway, I'll work on scum #3 and #4. | ||
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On December 18 2012 11:07 grush57 wrote: Oh wow, goodjob guys. :D DJO NEXT? ;D On December 18 2012 11:17 grush57 wrote: Honestly you have been pretty towny lately. Jay or Hapa plox. How did you go from (a) to (b) in such a short span of time? | ||
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On December 18 2012 11:31 grush57 wrote: I was obsessed with djo but then I questioned myself why djo is scum. Yeah that's cool. Can you fill in the details? | ||
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On December 18 2012 12:09 Djodref wrote: @ Hapa I hope that you are going to include jay in your scumteam. The association with VE is quite obvious. Moreover, mafia should had been able to push his lynch over adam lynch D1 if he was town. If jay is such a mislynch bait, why would VE go after z bo ? When he could have been consistent and get a mislynch on jay. Jay is scum. GG Most likely. Jay was pushing scum objectives pretty hard, but I have to be sure that he's not a stupid townie. It's kinda similar to you really - you were seemingly pushing mafia objectives pretty hard on the D1 lynch, but I'm pretty convinced you're town on your behavior. | ||
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On December 18 2012 12:43 Djodref wrote: How could he not doubt VE ? VE claimed a green check on me. I was supposed to be his mega top scumread. Please also note how he failed to push my lynch today. I didn't see his frustration when I managed to talk my way out of the lynch. He was lacking of convinction. Well new players can be pretty stupid sometimes. (See people trusting Dandel Ion's roleblocker claim) Failure to push your lynch is pretty good. Jay doesn't appear to have any activity excuses and it's probably best to take his actions (and inaction) at face value. | ||
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On December 18 2012 13:08 Djodref wrote: @ jay I also need your cases for your current scum reads. I would like also to know if your stance on me has changed since the flip. Your latest scum reads are Vivax, marv and Z-Bo. Good luck for your cases ! @ Hapa jay is not a new player here. Did you see the reasoning he gave for his absolute confidence in a town VE ? This is such far fetched, weird, totally made-up reasoning. Here is the natural town reaction. Someone claims Cop without breadcrumbs and stuff when he is about to get lynched, giving a green check on your top scumread. You just lynch this guy. Especially if Palmar wanted to lynch him before as well. Anyway, jay's filter is pretty scummy on itself, so... The easiest answer is that he is scum. Yeah I'm agreeing with ya on jay dawg. See last post. And I'm saying jay = "new" in the sense that he's a pretty easy mislynch if he's town. His behavior and actions point otherwise though. | ||
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On December 18 2012 07:56 VisceraEyes wrote: PRE-tldr for VIVAX ZBoson jaybrundage Hapahauli grush Bluelightz thrawn Vivax marv Djodref I just rediscovered this post. I hope this is not some massive WIFOM bomb planned by VE, but the interaction between VE and Jay makes absolutely no sense with this list. VE was super-cordial with Jay's attempts to save him. Jay is far too trusting of a guy who was trying to get him lynched. | ||
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The one reservation I have with Jay is Adam and VE pushing him for most of D1. However, Day 1 starts to make a hell of a lot more sense (bussing wise) if two scum candidates were up for lynching. | ||
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Lynch marv at lylo. Otherwise, seems townie. Still strongly reading thrawn's "gambit" as some stupid townie thing. G-rush I read as town. Bluelightz I read as lazy scum #4 | ||
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On December 19 2012 00:14 Z-BosoN wrote: ... Regarding jay/Hapa. They went after me as soon as thrawn opened the wound. Scum are generally much more comfortable seconding some other reads. If you note VE's post, look how he said he was re-writing his post on me or whatever, and a bunch of time later, hips "case" on me is a couple of quotes, and doesn't push it. I should have realized this much earlier, this is a rather strong tell Um. I didn't go after you this game, have I? I think I've had a couple of posts that were "leaning scum" or "leaning town" or "null" on you, but I haven't had many interactions with you this game. Regarding Hapa, his play is really off from his meta. He play is characterized by making cases, but he also does that as scum. What mostly unsettles me is how he's not thrown anyone against the wall this game, and doesn't have not nearly as much OMGUSing going on as in his townie games. Now that VE has flipped red, I want even more to lynch into them tomorrow. Their stances on VE, as noted above, didn't look so townie, moreso with jay. Hapa isn't known for sheeping like that, and Jay blatantly tried to "prove" VE was town with some backwards-ass logic. I get the behavior is different from my town play, but it's also different from my scum-play no? Name me one game as scum where I don't OMGUS, I sheep a read... etc. | ||
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On December 19 2012 01:59 thrawn2112 wrote: two times hapa has the opposite reaction of the thread (not doubting ve's claim and thinking jay looked townie at the end of d3) He started the day wanting to vote for ve. jay was also a possible candidate. ve claims, nobody believes him except hapa and hapa wants to lynch jay. then jay comes into the thread acting crazy and hapa no longer wants to lynch jay and settles on a "coinflip" between bluelightz and boson How is having the opposite reaction of the thread scummy? Like seriously. Regarding Jay, I think I've made it clear in those posts why I was thinking what I was at the time. I initially wanted to lynch Jay because he hadn't given me reasons to think he was town. Then he started acting up, and I thought that was something townie (I've since changed my mind on this). Also, you're just shoving words into my mouth regarding the "coinflip" thing. I said that lynching bluelightz was a "coinflip" at that stage. Where do I express a desire to lynch Z-Bo? I don't. | ||
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What would I be doing there as "mafia," and why would I be doing it? | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=124#2461 Munk-E I can't defend Munk-E beyond the fact that he's lynch-bait. I once again refer you to his newbie game filter (town D1 mislynch) as well as the fact that he replaced out (possibly he didn't have enough time to play). You've been content to ignore both of these factors over and over again. Munk-E looks "scummy." I get that. However he looks pretty damn scummy in his town play. I'm not pretending his play is townie, but you should realize that it could come from town-Munk-E and that his play at the very least should be "null" in your eyes. Hapa's Opening Posts I think everyone forgets that I'm a replacement in this game. I made a post about something I was not-caught-up-on the second I replaced in, and changed my mind when I realized my mistake. I get that "you don't like it", but what about that is scummy? Also... you think "responding to something too quickly" is scummy? I can' only read that as "Hapa put too much effort into replacing in, therefore he's scum." What the tits is that? I was excited to replace in and play the game initially (still had time, oh the memories...), and I was commenting on everything in the thread instantly and without a second thought. You should be reading that as townie buddy. Hapa's Scumhunting I get I haven't posted some giant "Wall-O-Text," however you have to keep in mind that I do this as both scum and town. In fact I'm really really good about posting long cases as scum. Tunneling people, pursuing reads, pushing reads... etc. All of those are hallmarks of my scum-play. The same thing with "passivity" - name me one of my scum-games where I'm remotely passive. I know my activity explanations may be unsatisfying to you, but they are true. Also, outside of that 48 hour period of activity, I've been really active. Like seriously, does anyone realize that I have a 10-page filter as a replacement in this game? As a replacement. VE's Lynch This is pretty selective on your part. First of all, you ignore that I was the first to park my vote on VE in the thread. You also say that I was "too trusting" of the VE claim, when any post I have on the subject should be clear about my hesitation regarding the subject. You can't dismiss cop-claims so quickly. I still disagree with how some of you immediately pegged his claim as a lie - it's something that an inactive townie can do in that spot. Ultimately though we had no choice but to lynch him in that spot since the claim was too convenient and he wasn't doing much to help himself (and you'll notice, I never moved my vote). You also mention my attitudes on Jay as "against the thread." 1) Why would I pick an opinion deliberately against the thread as scum? 2) What about my attitudes on Jay make me scummy? This seems to be more about you disagreeing with my opinion rather than connecting a scum motive to it. | ||
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On December 19 2012 05:29 Z-BosoN wrote: @hapa Regarding you attacking me soon after thrawn made the case, you're right, you just kinda agreed how I was disengaged and that's about it. That doesn't sound like "jumping on you" to me. Also, was your play disengaged at that point: true or false? However, though I still suck big time in making meta reads, your play feels totally weak and passive towards what I'm used to. Maybe not necessarily as scummy as I was making it, but still, could be you being lazy scum, and it certainly isn't helpful. I'll check you out tomorrow. You do realize that I've been hyper-active this game outside of a 48 hour period that I was busy. I have a 10-page filter this game... and I was a replacement! That's not "lazy scum." That's selective memory. Meanwhile, can you give some thoughts on Jay/Djo? Do you still have your townread on Djo, considering the BLuelightz thing I highlighted and how he seems to focus on non-alignment-indicative stuff (mainly discussing whether or not I believe in using advice from the dead)? I still am convinced that Djo is town. He's more active and gives more of a shit than anyone in this game. I think you have a higher chance to flip red than him, and I think you're town. Also, what do you make of BL/grush who have gone into overdrive lurking mode? I think BL is the 4th scum. Grush... I initially said I have a town read on him, but he has been pushing mafia objectives quite hard this game. Outside of his initial bus of Adam, there's nothing much in his filter that would suggest he's town. For example, he pushed Djo really hard until I convinced him to vote for VE (at which point he weekly sheeps on VE). Same thing with the tunkeg lynch - goes hard after Djo, then weekly sheeps on Tunkeg. The problem with Grush of course is that this is fairly normal for him as town as well. | ||
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On December 19 2012 05:42 Vivax wrote: Where is grush pushing mafia objectives? Wanting to lynch Djo over VE yesterday, then sheeping on VE when I asked him to. | ||
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On December 19 2012 05:50 Z-BosoN wrote: @hapa Yes, that is why I said "you're right". I wasn't as engaged as I was in liquid city/LVII, but I was definitely more engaged than with mario I think. Pages of filter is different from overall presence though. Your play is marked by you trying to take control and make people follow you, which is totally not going on. Sure you don't do that as either town nor scum, but it fits scum play much better. Anyways, if you are town I think one of BL/grush could be scum as well. Which is a coinflip, cause I seriously cannot read them. Your logic is reasonable, but unfortunately for you I'm town =P Keep in mind that a bunch of people thought I was suspicious for the same reasoning in CT Mafia. I was less present, less active, etc. And... I was town! Woo! @ Vivax I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm giving him (GRush) a null read as well, because he could very well be posting what he's doing as town. He's a guy who will unwittingly push mafia objectives some times. | ||
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On December 19 2012 07:21 Vivax wrote: Why does this lynch suddenly make Djo less scummy for you?Cause 1 of his 3 cases was about VE? You forgive every mistake he's done in the past cause he started posting with a gun at his head? No. It's because he tried to scumhunt. On the gallows or not, he went above and beyond what anyone could have expected him to do. | ||
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On December 19 2012 07:48 Vivax wrote: There are a dozen of reasons on the previous pages on why grush could be what he might be, do you care commenting on them? Also, how did Jay behave differently from Djo @ the lynch, except that Djo lied to Palmar? Essentially, what I wrote up there. The difference isn't what they did during one lynch. It's what they did other than that. Jay's done much less compared to what Djo has done. Their filters are night and day in terms of effort, content, and most importantly in actions towards VE. | ||
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What do you think the likelihood is that VE tried to bus Z-Bo? You're more familiar with VE's scum antics than I am, but the persistance with which VE tried to get Boson killed makes it seem unlikely. There's Jay pushing him as well. | ||
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On December 19 2012 08:30 Vivax wrote: Hapa, who are you going to lynch tomorrow? Also, are you able to link me your last post where you've been analysing someone? Jay. I've made that pretty clear in my filter. The only scumteam that makes sense to me right now is Jay/BL. Maaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyybe Z-Boson or GRush, but I highly doubt it. | ||
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There's not much I can add to Jay beyond what I've said here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=123#2449 As for Bluelightz, he's just a lurky/lazy player that's likely to flip red. No technical analysis required, just process of elimination. The only other reasonable candidates are yourself, Z-Bo, and GRush. You seem like a stupid townie given your activity/rage/etc. Z-Bo got pushed by Jay+VE (I'll feel better about this if Jay flips red anywho). GRush seems town based on meta. | ||
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On December 19 2012 08:39 Vivax wrote: Added in haste after you forgot to put it into your main analysis post which you refused to post after I asked. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=52#1021 I think I'll join other townies in voting you tomorrow. Shoot me bitches. So I thought VE was slightly townie like a bunch of other players in this game. That makes me scummy... how? | ||
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On December 19 2012 08:39 Vivax wrote: Added in haste after you forgot to put it into your main analysis post which you refused to post after I asked. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=52#1021 I think I'll join other townies in voting you tomorrow. Shoot me bitches. Oh this is actually wrong btw. I did include VE in my original analysis post. I just mislabeled his name as "green" instead of "VE" for some derpy reason. | ||
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Oooh quite a good night post. Anywho, kill Jay, and I'll work on convincing you folks to kill BL tomorrow. Feel free to ask any questions though. | ||
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Regarding the "scumdumpster" thing: My reads on VE were exactly what they were. Slightly town here, slightly town there, and by the time Palmar was convinced he was scum, I came around to the fact that my reasons for thinking he was town were stupid. That's part of what I do as town - try to find reasons to think people are town/scum. Some of them stick, and some of them I realize are retarded later in the game. The reads on VE were exactly this | ||
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a) Jay/BL lurker scumteam b) I thought it would be a great idea to mindfuck/wifom-bomb you all | ||
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On December 19 2012 10:56 thrawn2112 wrote: hapa you're the only person wifoming about the lack of night kills and you're doing it in a way to convince us you're town. the fact that you are capable of making that last post means you are definitely capable of option b. Clearly I'm not since I declared my own point invalid. Either way, I posted a response to your case. Care to comment? | ||
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On December 19 2012 11:01 marvellosity wrote: Declaring your own point invalid is irrelevant. The more interesting part is that you missed at least a couple of ppl comment on Delay already, why aren't you reading the thread Read the night post, made post, made another post, read comments, made 3rd post. | ||
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I mean I could get modkilled or something, but that would do no good. Can't conceed as town unfortunately. So what makes me scum over someone like... bluelightz? | ||
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Sigh. Have you read his town game? And also because scum BL would already have conceded I guess. It's going to be like lynch jay -> lynch Hapa -> lynch BL If the scumteam is jay and BL, there is no way for them to win the game. Scum BL doesn't survive LYLO. In my opinion, BL doesn't survive LYLO, regardless of his alignment. Just lynch BL first, then me at LYLO. Can we agree on that? I don't want to play this longer than I have to. I'm surprised that you didn't post some case against Vivax or Z-Bo... Why the hell would I try to get town reads lynched? I mean I can build a town case, but that's just silly and unnecessary given the thread dynamics right now. | ||
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On December 19 2012 11:52 Djodref wrote: Don't you agree that it would be better to lynch you first ? I don't want you at LYLO with grush and someone else. Grush could fuck this up. I want BL at LYLO, because even Grush could vote him for sure. So you're voting me because you're... scared? I mean like I can sympathise with that, but that would involve the game going 48 hours longer than it needs to. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + mmmmmmm.... candy.... | ||
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Also, outside of the 48-hour busy period, I've been pretty present in the thread. That's been the gist of my defense anyway. | ||
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If you vote BL first, you'll have an extra 48 hours to actually figure out if I'm scum (or hopefully realize that I'm town). I'm like a thousand times more active than BL anyway | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + DON'T MAKE ME POST BABY SEAL PICS. I WILL! | ||
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On December 19 2012 12:11 Djodref wrote: I don't want to give extra 48 hours to a potential scum Hapa so he can talk his way out of a lynch I wouldn't mind at all to give an extra 48 hours to a potential scum BL to try to talk his way out of a lynch ^^ Or you can give town hapa an extra 48 hours to talk himself out of a mislynch mmkay? Plus the game will likely end when BL gets killed. | ||
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On December 19 2012 12:29 Djodref wrote: you have now a bit less than 120 hours to talk yourself out of a lynch I think it's enough ^^ Why don't you start now ? Town reads cases are welcomed. I feel sorry for you that you had to replace Munk-E ^^ And yeah, regarding BL, too scummy to be scum. And given his low motivation, I would expect him to concede if he was mafia. /facepalm Not a good reason to think he's not scum dawg. On December 19 2012 12:31 Djodref wrote: I mean, what do you care if you think that BL is scum ? What are you afraid of ? You think that people are not going to be able to lynch BL at MYLO or LYLO ? Moreover, you are going to be dead, so you don't even have to play... You win with town, don't you ? Is this actually a question? Like I'm not supposed to get the guy who I think is mafia lynched? | ||
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On December 19 2012 13:29 Djodref wrote: Mm, ok. I'm waiting for your case against BL ! Sure I could type one up that looked all pretty, but the reasons should be fairly self-evident. Lurky, disinterested scum who hasn't done anything this game of value. | ||
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On December 20 2012 00:36 marvellosity wrote: ... Hapa, what is this? You argue that you don't want to be lynched right now, but also that you want to play the game for as little time as possible. What gives? Djodref, where are you at with your #1 scumread? It's hard to tell at the moment with the little game you're playing with who we should be lynching when. Oh that doesn't make much sense now that I think about it. Was just a frustrated remark. Anywho, I don't have much time for the next 24 hours - have to finish a take-home final. Howwwwwever after that, I'm done, so I'll probably make a video (a la Palmar) or something. | ||
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On December 20 2012 03:48 Vivax wrote: How about this as an apéritif, mon ami of the Grand Nation? Oh come on. You know exactly what I meant there. | ||
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On December 19 2012 10:46 Hapahauli wrote: ##Vote Jay Oooh quite a good night post. Anywho, kill Jay, and I'll work on convincing you folks to kill BL tomorrow. Feel free to ask any questions though. | ||
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No I'll be checking the thread every so often - it's a take-home final that's due at 10am tomorrow morning, but I'll probably finish it in a few hours. Would you support the idea of a video, or would that be too unsportsmanlike? Being mislynched as town is just about the last thing I want to have happen to me. | ||
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OK DAMNIT FOCUS TIME. See you in a couple of hours | ||
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There are three possible explanations for the mafia KP: 1) Mafia are inactive/demotivated and forgot to submit KP. 2) Mafia decided to withhold KP 3) Mafia are making some WIFOM play Option 2: I don't consider option two very likely. Withholding KP only makes sense as a play if someone is worried about explaining why they are alive so late in the game. The only person that makes sense for is marv, who made a similar play in Normal Mini Mafia III as scum. However, it's very doubtful that marv is scum at this stage. Firstly, his meta strongly suggests that he's town. While there's a temptation to think that scum marv is super active all the time, that's just not true. Scum marv can be very active in the early game to build town credit. After that, he seems just as content to coast on his town cred. This is the complete opposite from this game, where he's still active and still very clearly trying to figure things out. In addition, a hypothetical scum-marv could simply kill a player like thrawn (whom everyone has had a town read on since D1) and come out looking fine. There's very little chance that marv is scum, or that any other player would have made this play. Option 3: The only person that a WIFOM play makes sense for is a veteran player who is in danger of getting lynched trying to confuse the town. Rather, it only makes sense for me if I was scum. While it will ring hollow for me to say that "I wouldn't do such a thing," consider what possible scum motives I could have for such a play. There's zero strategical incentive here for me not to kill someone. In fact, if I were scum, I'd increase my chances of survival by killing a player like Djo, thrawn, or Vivax, who have been death-tunneling me for a few days now. But if you still think I'm WIFOM bombing or something, I refer you to Occam's Razor. What requires more insane assumptions... me pulling this play, or the scumteam simply being too inactive to submit a kill? Option 1: This is the only reasonable explanation for the lack of NK in my mind, and it pretty strongly points to a lurker scumteam. Jay: I'd rather not belabor the point - pretty much everyone in the thread has outlined the reason's he's scum at this point. Bluelightz: Bluelightz is the only reasonable lurker that could be scum. His filter is also not very pretty. I'll do something in more detail tomorrow, but I'm very surprised why people are buying into his "demotivated" act. In Rockband Mini, I tunneled the hell out of him (along with several other players). Despite being tunneled under similar circumstances to this game, never once did he get demotivated - he was very proactive and resilient in his defense. Just read his filter... it's night and day from his play this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250&user=235418 Furthermore, he's not getting tunneled at all right now. While I'd understand (and sympathise) with his demotivation earlier, there's just no reason for him to be so lazy in the current situation. He's not under major pressure or anything. In fact many players are trying to encourage him to post. Instead of being constructive, he offers random comments and leaves for hours on end. Z-Boson I think there's an outside chance that Z-Boson could be scum, however given how hard that both Jay and VE pushed him on Day 2, I highly doubt he's mafia. Admittedly I have not read through his filter recently. I'll verify this tomorrow. Grush: My favorite post on GRush is this post by austinmcc in PTP3: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=359357¤tpage=85#1693 I think it outlines the differences between scum and town GRush pretty well. In GRush's scumgames, there are certain posts in his filter for which the only objective is to be antagonistic or trolly. In this game, GRush is remarkably constructive. Even if sheepy, his posts are playful and straightforward. There's no trolling, no antagonism, and no traces of scum GRush this game. | ||
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Do I get a survey? =O | ||
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On December 20 2012 18:16 thrawn2112 wrote: idk, i'm all out of silly questions. imo the night kill stuff is still.... not really worth thinking about yet. your post doesn't include the possibility that mafia just withheld kp intentionally because they'll just get 2 kp next time. The problem is that there's zero incentive for mafia not to kill someone today. Veteran's dead... JK's dead... why on earth wouldn't mafia take the opportunity to shoot someone like marv? | ||
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On December 20 2012 13:39 thrawn2112 wrote: Go read the conversation between marv and blue that happened a few pages back and tell me if you still think he's scum. true he's not really doing anything but he's contributed more than jay. the last two days jay has clocked out as soon as he's pressed to talk about his scumreads...why? he doesn't have any. he didn't even respond to my question a short while ago. At one point I had a town read on Bluelightz because his "demotivated" conversation a couple of days ago seemed pretty genuine at first glance. However that stuff is really really easy to fake. In addition, that isn't an excuse for a player who's perfectly capable of posting analysis to... never post analysis. Living in a perpetually demotivated state is really easy to fake. It's not a town tell. Also, demotivation is something that ebbs and flows with successes and failures of the town. Why isn't bluelightz optimistic now that VE is dead? | ||
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On December 20 2012 18:21 thrawn2112 wrote: well, i'm pretty certain about jay being scum. his lynch has been the talk of the thread almost since right before ve got lynched. so it's not like scum would be able to prevent a jay lynch by withholding kp. for example, they could just withhold kp last night, knowing jay will get lynched but hoping to wifom the thread into a mislynch later on... as I suspect you are doing. I realize you have respect for my scumplay, but show me one of my games where I attempt something even resembling a WIFOM play. Hell there's no incentive for a WIFOM play. If I was scum, it would be 10000000x more beneficial to shoot marv, or even you, rather than risk all this shit. | ||
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Bluelightz: Bluelightz is the only reasonable lurker that could be scum. His filter is also not very pretty. I'll do something in more detail tomorrow, but I'm very surprised why people are buying into his "demotivated" act. In Rockband Mini, I tunneled the hell out of him (along with several other players). Despite being tunneled under similar circumstances to this game, never once did he get demotivated - he was very proactive and resilient in his defense. Just read his filter... it's night and day from his play this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250&user=235418 Furthermore, he's not getting tunneled at all right now. While I'd understand (and sympathise) with his demotivation earlier, there's just no reason for him to be so lazy in the current situation. He's not under major pressure or anything. In fact many players are trying to encourage him to post. Instead of being constructive, he offers random comments and leaves for hours on end. Agree? Disagree? | ||
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Seeing stuff like the above should alert you to how much confirmation bias is involved in all of this. | ||
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The problem I have are the incessant contradictions, and his attitude at the time of the VE claim really smacks of scum trying to find a way to not lynch VE right then. Contradictions? The ones you've pointed out seem pretty far from alignment indicative. I contradict myself in stupid ways as town all the time (remember your "Hapa the Hypocrite case). If there's a contradiction in my suspicion or core gameplay, I'll certainly address that, but what you're pointing out seems pretty meaningless. | ||
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On December 20 2012 22:33 Djodref wrote: + Show Spoiler [Speculation on the mafia KP] + On December 20 2012 17:51 Hapahauli wrote: Some thoughts before I go to bed: There are three possible explanations for the mafia KP: 1) Mafia are inactive/demotivated and forgot to submit KP. 2) Mafia decided to withhold KP 3) Mafia are making some WIFOM play Option 2: I don't consider option two very likely. Withholding KP only makes sense as a play if someone is worried about explaining why they are alive so late in the game. The only person that makes sense for is marv, who made a similar play in Normal Mini Mafia III as scum. However, it's very doubtful that marv is scum at this stage. Firstly, his meta strongly suggests that he's town. While there's a temptation to think that scum marv is super active all the time, that's just not true. Scum marv can be very active in the early game to build town credit. After that, he seems just as content to coast on his town cred. This is the complete opposite from this game, where he's still active and still very clearly trying to figure things out. In addition, a hypothetical scum-marv could simply kill a player like thrawn (whom everyone has had a town read on since D1) and come out looking fine. There's very little chance that marv is scum, or that any other player would have made this play. Option 3: The only person that a WIFOM play makes sense for is a veteran player who is in danger of getting lynched trying to confuse the town. Rather, it only makes sense for me if I was scum. While it will ring hollow for me to say that "I wouldn't do such a thing," consider what possible scum motives I could have for such a play. There's zero strategical incentive here for me not to kill someone. In fact, if I were scum, I'd increase my chances of survival by killing a player like Djo, thrawn, or Vivax, who have been death-tunneling me for a few days now. But if you still think I'm WIFOM bombing or something, I refer you to Occam's Razor. What requires more insane assumptions... me pulling this play, or the scumteam simply being too inactive to submit a kill? Option 1: This is the only reasonable explanation for the lack of NK in my mind, and it pretty strongly points to a lurker scumteam. Jay: I'd rather not belabor the point - pretty much everyone in the thread has outlined the reason's he's scum at this point. Bluelightz: Bluelightz is the only reasonable lurker that could be scum. His filter is also not very pretty. I'll do something in more detail tomorrow, but I'm very surprised why people are buying into his "demotivated" act. In Rockband Mini, I tunneled the hell out of him (along with several other players). Despite being tunneled under similar circumstances to this game, never once did he get demotivated - he was very proactive and resilient in his defense. Just read his filter... it's night and day from his play this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250&user=235418 Furthermore, he's not getting tunneled at all right now. While I'd understand (and sympathise) with his demotivation earlier, there's just no reason for him to be so lazy in the current situation. He's not under major pressure or anything. In fact many players are trying to encourage him to post. Instead of being constructive, he offers random comments and leaves for hours on end. Z-Boson I think there's an outside chance that Z-Boson could be scum, however given how hard that both Jay and VE pushed him on Day 2, I highly doubt he's mafia. Admittedly I have not read through his filter recently. I'll verify this tomorrow. Grush: My favorite post on GRush is this post by austinmcc in PTP3: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=359357¤tpage=85#1693 I think it outlines the differences between scum and town GRush pretty well. In GRush's scumgames, there are certain posts in his filter for which the only objective is to be antagonistic or trolly. In this game, GRush is remarkably constructive. Even if sheepy, his posts are playful and straightforward. There's no trolling, no antagonism, and no traces of scum GRush this game. Why did you use mafia KP speculation as an argument to exonerate yourself and incriminate BL ? I didn't anyone but you giving this importance to the fact that there was no KP. This kind of thing generally indicates a mafia mindset, don't you agree ? Talking about KP = me being scum. Sigh. Do you agree with it or not? I thought I laid it out really clear why I'm thinking what I am. | ||
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On December 19 2012 05:28 Hapahauli wrote: Regarding the Thrawn Case http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=124#2461 Munk-E I can't defend Munk-E beyond the fact that he's lynch-bait. I once again refer you to his newbie game filter (town D1 mislynch) as well as the fact that he replaced out (possibly he didn't have enough time to play). You've been content to ignore both of these factors over and over again. Munk-E looks "scummy." I get that. However he looks pretty damn scummy in his town play. I'm not pretending his play is townie, but you should realize that it could come from town-Munk-E and that his play at the very least should be "null" in your eyes. Hapa's Opening Posts I think everyone forgets that I'm a replacement in this game. I made a post about something I was not-caught-up-on the second I replaced in, and changed my mind when I realized my mistake. I get that "you don't like it", but what about that is scummy? Also... you think "responding to something too quickly" is scummy? I can' only read that as "Hapa put too much effort into replacing in, therefore he's scum." What the tits is that? I was excited to replace in and play the game initially (still had time, oh the memories...), and I was commenting on everything in the thread instantly and without a second thought. You should be reading that as townie buddy. Hapa's Scumhunting I get I haven't posted some giant "Wall-O-Text," however you have to keep in mind that I do this as both scum and town. In fact I'm really really good about posting long cases as scum. Tunneling people, pursuing reads, pushing reads... etc. All of those are hallmarks of my scum-play. The same thing with "passivity" - name me one of my scum-games where I'm remotely passive. I know my activity explanations may be unsatisfying to you, but they are true. Also, outside of that 48 hour period of activity, I've been really active. Like seriously, does anyone realize that I have a 10-page filter as a replacement in this game? As a replacement. VE's Lynch This is pretty selective on your part. First of all, you ignore that I was the first to park my vote on VE in the thread. You also say that I was "too trusting" of the VE claim, when any post I have on the subject should be clear about my hesitation regarding the subject. You can't dismiss cop-claims so quickly. I still disagree with how some of you immediately pegged his claim as a lie - it's something that an inactive townie can do in that spot. Ultimately though we had no choice but to lynch him in that spot since the claim was too convenient and he wasn't doing much to help himself (and you'll notice, I never moved my vote). You also mention my attitudes on Jay as "against the thread." 1) Why would I pick an opinion deliberately against the thread as scum? 2) What about my attitudes on Jay make me scummy? This seems to be more about you disagreeing with my opinion rather than connecting a scum motive to it. I don't know whether people have chosen to ignore it or dismiss it, but what's even the point of putting any effort in this game if you guys don't read what I type? I could pull a Bluelightz card, but I'm not. I have no idea why you read town into his "eh I don't feel like playing" behavior. It's the stupidest thing I've ever seen in a mafia game. | ||
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Why do you support my lynch against someone who's openly not giving a shit about the thread (Bluelightz)? | ||
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On December 21 2012 04:45 Djodref wrote: No, I don't agree on your view on the lack of KP. The scumteam certainly didn't forget to send the KP. And they could have done it to make Vivax go crazy about marv. Honestly, it doesn't really matter, because today is pretty straightforward. It doesn't change anything from my point of view, Jay is scum, and nothing would have changed if one player was missing... Also "eh, I don't feel like reading your posts or thinking 'cause Jay is dead" Is a really fun attitude for the thread to have when I'm trying to defend myself from a mislynch. This is fun gais! | ||
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On December 21 2012 04:47 Djodref wrote: @ Hapa I forgot to add something regarding what happened during D1... Please explain me how BL fits as a member of the scum team during D1. You're right, he does go after Jay early on which is something I noticed in his filter. However, the scum team seemed to have no problems going after one another and even bussed one of their own fairly early. Furthermore, it's not like his case on Jay is original or early for that matter. It could just about as easily be a distancing case. | ||
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He votes Jay here... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=12#238 A post in which he fingerpoints four players in total. He then proceeds to never talk about Jay ever again for Day 1. It reads really clear as a distancing case to me. Keep in mind that even VE tried to get Jay lynched on day 1 (was the 5th vote on Jay) Then, he's asked a few questions about Adam, says he's "suspicious" and stuff, goes afk, then votes Adam: On December 12 2012 01:43 Bluelightz wrote: Aight. From the thread, I'm gonna vote ##Vote: Adam4167 Because of Palmar's case and my own reasons. I believe this is the most helpful vote I can put in before I sleep as I have school so can't be here @ the deadline. Bluelightz was the 4th vote on Adam. That's not enough to dismiss a bussing attempt. | ||
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On December 21 2012 04:51 Djodref wrote: Because you didn't defend me yesterday when I was a great mislynch potential. Because of Munk-E. Because of your attitude towards VE fakeclaim and jay during VE lynch. And because I don't see BlueLightz as part of the scumteam when I go back reading D1, especially if I assume that jay is scum. And also, I prefer to lynch you before BL, because it's less risky from my point of view. And I have to lynch you by elimination. Soooo ...1) Because I was busy ...2) Because of lynch-bait townie that you are too lazy to look into meta for ...3) Because I actually bothered to think about situation rather than putting the blinders on in either way ...4) Because you're giving BL's stuff far more town credit than it's worth (see my previous post) | ||
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On December 21 2012 05:01 Djodref wrote: Because of your attitude towards VE fakeclaim and jay during VE lynch. I'm ready to trust VE and lynch Jay. I'm really ready to trust VE, I'm just waiting so I can see what you guys decide I really would like to believe this guy Ok, look ! jay is pants on head. I don't want to lynch him anymore. He is going to look good when VE is gonna flip (red) I'm sorry if you are town, but this is how I interpret your posts at that time... Yeah so what? Quote #1: I'm clearly expressing reservations, and I'm not committed to either side. Also... I want to lynch... Jay? How does that make sense from a mafia perspective? Quote #2: I'm clearly not ready to trust VE as you claim. I said I'm not dismissing the claim, not that I want to trust him. Again, it's stupid in such a volatile spot to turn the blinders on in either way, and I'll be damned if you tunnel suspicion on me for having the correct attitude as a townie here. Quote #3: How in the fuck is that "I want to believe VE?" That's me expressing some very clear reservations about VE. Quote #4: Jay is "pants on head" - yes that's exactly what I thought at the time until looking through VE's filter (particularly his last scum-list post) showed me otherwise. What about my attitude there was unreasonable? Hell I took an opinion directly against everyone in the thread for what reason exactly? | ||
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I'm sorry if you are town, but this is how I interpret your posts at that time... These aren't reasonable interpretations of my posts. This is you trying to read between the lines and act as if I'm implying a thousand things that I'm not. | ||
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On December 18 2012 09:23 marvellosity wrote: Z-Bo has gone according to his last post, i assume he's referring to what i pasted here. i fucking hate this. none of his play is townie, but i hate lynching uncounterclaimed DTs. djfnsdk I think we have to lynch him and hope he doesn't flip DT or we feel very stupid Also as far as my "grand plan" goes: And yeah, wanted to switch and jay makes sense, you could 'confirm' VE as a cop and gain town credit in the operation. Also, I don't understand how you could come from 'let's switch to jay' to go to 'him going totally nuts about VE is a town trait' So what was my plan? That I wanted to get town-cred from lynching Jay? But then I switched to defending Jay to look as bad as possible and wanted to save Jay? That alone should show you I'm not mafia. What was my plan? I would have had to 180 on plans with my "team" within a span of 5 minutes. | ||
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On December 21 2012 05:21 Djodref wrote: @ Hapa This is because I hold your town play in a very high standard. Don't take it wrong, but you are maybe getting mislynched because people are expecting you to play perfectly. I would expect town Hapa to directly ring to FakeClaim Alert Bell Good lord. The "Fake claim alert bell" isn't about "ZOMG HE'S FAKE CLAIMING LYNCH HIM NOWWWW!" It's about being willing to consider the options in a claiming situation. When someone claims cop, you have to consider the options. You can't tunnel lynch him, because not all last-minute cop claims are mafia. Also I'm surprised you draw so much of this advice from the Dandel Ion fake-claim in that newbie game when the situations were completely different. I was on you guys for not considering the claim since Dandel... 1) Claimed town roleblocker (lol) 2) He was the 4th claimed blue in a 13 player game 3) He had scumslipped several times in his filter 4) The entire town didn't even question his claim | ||
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Can you address this by the way? On December 21 2012 05:27 Hapahauli wrote: ... So what was my plan? That I wanted to get town-cred from lynching Jay? But then I switched to defending Jay to look as bad as possible and wanted to save Jay? That alone should show you I'm not mafia. What was my plan? I would have had to 180 on plans with my "team" within a span of 5 minutes. Pretend I'm mafia for a minute. Walk me through my last posts before the deadline (regarding Jay and VE) - what was the plan I had? | ||
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On December 21 2012 05:52 Djodref wrote: Save VE, lynch jay, getting VE confirmed and you town cred. Then, victory could be achieved. But it didn't happen like so, VE gets obviously lynched, ask jay to go pants on head, and you try to make him look town for being that obvious. That's a pretty impressive plan to come up with in such a chaotic last-minute situation. I'd be impressed if I was mafia. | ||
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That VE + Jay decided to go pants-on-head, and Bluelightz didn't post once during their entire escapade? | ||
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1) Munk-E replaced out of the game due to inactivity concerns 2) Munk-E is lynch-bait | ||
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On December 21 2012 06:21 grush57 wrote: idk man inactivity concerns seem like u got told. No it's an inference. This is a reasonable conclusion from someone who made four posts and replaced out - True or False? | ||
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On December 21 2012 07:06 marvellosity wrote: Hapa, someone being lynch-bait doesn't make them not-scum, you should know that. It's not an argument for anything. I presume BL is still your #1 scumread after jay? Despite my/Palmar/whoever's reservations? Yes pretty much. Though I'll have to look at Z-Bo and Vivax just to be sure. Really don't think Vivax is scum based on his general attitude (and polar opposite scum meta). Z-Bo... kinda hard to see VE + Jay pushing him like this. It comes down to... well who's left? Bluelightz. Z-Bo, 3 blues is fine in a 16 player game. I mean, anywhere between like 2 to as many as 6 could be balanced depending on the roles themselves, and the roles the mafia have. From the lack of roleblock other than me from the JK, it seems like mafia don't have a roleblocker, which is normally the primary scum role, so I'd maybe expect a number towards the lower end, or at least not many strong roles. I don't know how to factor in mafia vigi as I'm unsure on my assessment of how strong it is. On Vivax, meh. I need something more than that to make me worry about him.[/QUOTE] | ||
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Muahahahahah, evil plan successful. | ||
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I'm going to be focusing on other things today, and I want to wait for any potential NK's tonight before I start typing up cases. I'm pretty confused by Jay flipping town, and finding the other two scum is going to take some concerted effort. | ||
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Therefore, ##Vote: No-Lynch | ||
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On December 22 2012 08:29 Z-BosoN wrote: @Hapa Some questions regarding this post I recall from your filter. On #1, why is lynching jay nonsensical from a mafia perspective? I mean, sure, we all thought he was scum at the time, but regardless, I don't see what you mean there. Being a bus or being a mislynch, why did you reason it didn't make sense at that time? On #4, what exactly in VE's scumlist post made you think otherwise regarding jay's pants-on-head read? I remember you saying how jay was super-cordial with someone trying to lynch him or something like that, but can you be more specific on this? On #1 - I thought jay was going to flip mafia. Especially after his defense, I couldn't see him flipping town. My point there was that I (as "scum" hapa) wouldn't bus my scumbuddy like that. Clearly this goes out the window. On #4 - I think I was plenty specific: On December 18 2012 13:16 Hapahauli wrote: I just rediscovered this post. I hope this is not some massive WIFOM bomb planned by VE, but the interaction between VE and Jay makes absolutely no sense with this list. VE was super-cordial with Jay's attempts to save him. Jay is far too trusting of a guy who was trying to get him lynched. | ||
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Anyway, my time right now needs to be spent reading filters rather than defending myself. With this I'll take my leave. | ||
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On December 18 2012 09:34 VisceraEyes wrote: It's useless jay...thx though. <3 Town needs this. They need this to see just how wrong Palmar can be WHILE trying. People have this notion that he's infallible, that he's never wrong. This game will serve as an excellent example in later games, if nothing else. | ||
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##Vote Hapahauli So here's the deal I want to make with you guys. The self-vote is to motivate myself to find the last two scum-team members. Make of it what you will. I realize I haven't been as active in this game. So I'm going to make up for it tonight. As far as I'm concerned, it's my job right now to convince you who the other two scumteam members are. I'm not going to be defending myself. I'll be building cases. Place your votes on me, and it will be my job to convince you otherwise. | ||
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Shortly before the N2 deadline, you posted a response to Palmar detailing your reads on the entire playerbase. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=99#1976 Notable from this post: ... VE - the posts he HAS made have consistently made me lean town on this guy. His out and out dumbness on various issues (adam reads post, clarity) are strongly reminiscent of his town play. The problem is what he HASN'T posted. I'd be ok with him if in between the pants-on-head there was VE trying to figure out play. It doesn't seem that way. He could be time-constrained or whatever, but actually I respect VE enough that i expect more of SOMETHING from him and I haven't had it, so I'm thinking scum right now. ... You were thinking scum on VE, and then one of your first posts on Day 3: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=103#2059 Nice job there. jay managed to 'look town' to some of us here during day 1, and has basically ridden that all the way through the game. There's constant admissions that he's not doing anything, promises to do more... but we never actually get anything. Scum again. Right now then I'm looking at Djodref, Hapahauli. jaybrundage. Thoughts guys? You then attack my rationale for defending VE... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=104#2070 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=104#2072 And then... On December 17 2012 22:28 marvellosity wrote: Screw this. We'll see what Hapa comes up with later and if I have to phone post to change votes or whatever then that's what I'll have to do ##Unvote ##Vote: VisceraEyes So my questions to you: 1) Why did you vote VE, when you were looking at myself, Djo, and Jay as the scumteam? 2) Can you walk us through your thought process on N2/D3 in regards to your suspicions? | ||
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Around the time that VE claimed cop, you took a rather exasperated stance on things: On December 18 2012 09:23 marvellosity wrote: Z-Bo has gone according to his last post, i assume he's referring to what i pasted here. i fucking hate this. none of his play is townie, but i hate lynching uncounterclaimed DTs. djfnsdk I think we have to lynch him and hope he doesn't flip DT or we feel very stupid In this post, it seems very clear that you're not thrilled about the idea of lynching VE and are pretty torn on things. 4 minutes later... On December 18 2012 09:33 marvellosity wrote: pretty sure it's VE/jay right now On December 18 2012 09:40 marvellosity wrote: Hapa, you've missed the point. it sets up perfectly jay is scum with VE. jay hard-opposes VE's lynch at VE's orders two results: 1) jay averts the VE lynch 2) jay doesn't avert the VE lynch but everyone goes "omg, scum would NEVER do that, it's SO blates!" winwin for scumjay What I found odd about this was both your explanation and the turn-around time. You go from uneasy to extremely convinced by the actions of a player that wasn't VE. More odd is what's missing in your analysis - nowhere do you describe why VE/Jay scumteam is more likely than the alternative (Jay = stupid town). You simply state that VE/Jay is scum because this grand plan could have happened. Bonus: On December 18 2012 09:51 marvellosity wrote: again, this is why it would be a good play and it'd be fucking VE orchestrating it. And it's the fact that intelligent people against you fight against the idea that make it good. On December 18 2012 09:51 marvellosity wrote: *intelligent people like you This post is odd considering the context of the game. On Day 3, I was presumably one of your top scumreads (you had your vote on me earlier in the day), and yet the bolded statement seems to imply that I'm town. | ||
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Firstly, his veteran claim is very risky from a scum perspective. There's a high chance that there are 4 blues in this game. Given that he claimed veteran, he would risk a lot of pressure on himself had a 5th blue counterclaimed. No one has done so, and the risk/reward of such a fake-claim suggests that Marv is town. In addition, there are too many easy opportunities he has turned down to be scum. He could have very easily pushed the BL lynch and come out fine from it. In addition, of all the players he seemed the most concerned about finding out Djo's alignment and objectively considering things. Finally, he's been the most hesitant to jump on my lynch out of the players. As a last point, I'm coming away from his interaction with Tunkeg (page 11 of his filter) as pretty authentic: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953&user=140487¤tpage=11 I'm not sure why marv is alive right now, but his play shows far too much correlation with his town play (and not nearly enough with his scum-play) for him to be scum. | ||
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Firstly, let's take a quote from VE himself: On December 14 2012 15:40 VisceraEyes wrote: ZBoson sure likes shoveling shit at people he has no interest in lynching. From D1: + Show Spoiler [Vivax] + On December 11 2012 04:05 Z-BosoN wrote: Yea, vivax's post seems too much like "look at me trying hard to scumhunt" The lack of follow-up also worries me. Never follows up on this. + Show Spoiler [debears] + On December 11 2012 04:17 Z-BosoN wrote: @debears I see you've got some Adam going on for ya. I think you are getting too riled up over expecting someone to go balls out on a day one suspicion. You, for example, are not nearly as spammy as your day one self. I don't think this aligns with your townie play, but I don't think it necessarily makes you scummy. I am curious to hear from adam his stance on thrawn, as he seemed to have dropped it.. Defends Adam here as an added bonus. + Show Spoiler [wherebugsgo] + On December 11 2012 04:18 Z-BosoN wrote: That won't do. Why did you say 80% chance yatta yatta here? Why not give the explanation you gave later on when ppl started asking questions? I don't even know what the relevance is here. Bugs percentage is completely arbitrary anyway. + Show Spoiler [Munk-E] + On December 11 2012 04:50 Z-BosoN wrote: It's Z-Boson. It's funny you should mention Munk-E, because he has a town read on WBG, even though he disagrees with WBG's logic. Does anyone find this post right here: Any close to being normal? He then votes for Djodref after making a big case, only to drop it and vote for Tunkeg. Interestingly enough, he does so in the name of consolidation, yet is one of the only people not on the Adam wagon. He can say he thought Adam was town all he wants: he only unvoted Djodref in the name of consolidation though, and consolidate he did not. He pushed a counter-wagon. And if he wanted to do that, he could have stayed on Djodref. ##Unvote: Clarity_nl ##Vote: ZBoson While it feels funny to use the case of a flipped scum, it's a shockingly accurate description of Z-Boson's gameplay so far. He makes a bunch of huge cases on several players. While this is fine, Z-Boson rather shockingly never gives a town read for all of D1! He also never attempts to even defend a player (other than Adam, whom he once indirectly defends by "preferring" a Tunkeg lynch). Now giving town-reads isn't a scum-tell or town-tell one way or the other. However, not giving any town reads ALL of Day 1 is a bit... sketch. It matches a scum motivation of wanting to spread suspicion in the thread. Half-Hearted Bus of VE On N2, Z-Boson posts... On December 16 2012 10:32 Z-BosoN wrote: vivax. Yep that's it. Doesn't follow up on this read at all. He also attacks me for changing my mind on VE: On December 17 2012 10:21 Z-BosoN wrote: @marv It's interesting you mention Hapa. I also noted his change of mind on VE, and Hapa's usually not one to sheep like that. I look forward to his defense. @Djo I like how you are actually trying. One question though, why post a BL case right after making a case on your main suspect? However, Z-Boson's first post of Day 3: On December 17 2012 12:07 Z-BosoN wrote: Okay, I'm down to lynching VE. I don't like how he disappeared and hasn't really responded to anything. He doesn't seem interested in the game AT ALL. If you guys recall, we hadn't interacted at all up until he noted my "scumslip". He then made his "case" on me: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=81#1607 And parked his vote on me. This came at a time when I had some pressure on me. I agree a lot with Djo's point on how he is really just going with the flow. Note how his play is in complete contrast with his game on Liquid City. When he found me to be scum, he spent quite some time interacting with me, prodding around asking other people (BC) what they thought of me, etc. He then gave some attention elsewhere when I wasnt getting any traction. Take a look at the interaction that begins in the last 4-5 posts of this page: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371260&user=117978¤tpage=8 And some in the next page as well. This game it's complete and utter crap. He gives a crap reason (that basically surmounts to: I'm prodding people everywhere) and doesnt push me, doesnt do shit. He parks his vote on me and keeps it there, saying later just how he'd be down to lynch me. Doesn't ask other people what they think of me, doesn't try to push his "scum read". There's also that whole Palmar wants him dead thing. I'm curious to see what his next move is. Yep Z-Boson wants to lynch VE after not talking about him the ENTIRE game. The only time I can find Z-Boson talking about VE in his entire filter is this post - an end-of-the-night "in case I die" post in which he leaves us with zero substantial conclusions: ... tl;dr
I didn't proof read, but tried to make it easier to understand as I was writing this. Let me know what you guys think. So Z-Boson parks his vote on Jay for the entire day after wanting to lynch VE. At the VE counter claim, Z-Boson is initially super-hesitant, and wants to lynch annnnyone but VE: On December 18 2012 07:50 Z-BosoN wrote: I gotta leave in 30 min If no one counters I'm gonna leave my vote on Jay I think On December 18 2012 08:02 Z-BosoN wrote: I'd much rather lynch jay, but hapa I think also has good chances of popping scum On December 18 2012 08:27 Z-BosoN wrote: This looks like liquid city all over again. But when it's clear that VE is going to be lynched and time is running out (15 minutes before the flip), LOLNOPE, YOU'RE SCUM VE!! LOLOLOLOL On December 18 2012 08:44 Z-BosoN wrote: Ok, guys, VE's play is in total fucking contrast of his townie game. Palmar is almost sure he's scum. He has no crumb. Even in LC mafia he had some sort of crumb. His push on me makes no fucking sense from a townie perspective. Refer to Liquid City mafia. It's risky for a cop to counter-claim right now, he'll get nked with little chance to actually investigate. Everything points to VE being scum. The alternative to that is a no-lynch, which gets us nowhere. I have to go right now, so I'll take his bluff. ##Vote VisceraEyes | ||
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##Vote Z-Boson | ||
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On December 18 2012 07:50 Z-BosoN wrote: I gotta leave in 30 min If no one counters I'm gonna leave my vote on Jay I think I initially took this quote to mean that Z-Boson had his vote parked on Jay. This is not the case... whoops. Z-Boson didn't vote until 12 minutes before the deadline, when he parked his vote on VE. Regardless of the vote, the case should demonstrate how scummy his deadline actions were. | ||
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Unfortunately I'm not scum, but I'll take a look at that monster and see if I think you're town from it. | ||
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1) Hapa's Town Reads (particularly the one on Tunkeg) Firstly, you say that I shouldn't have initially found Tunkeg town because I disagreed with some of his martyr reads. This is absurd. Whether or not a player is correct has nothing to do with whether they're scum or not. Secondly, you think my switch on Tunkeg is scummy because I "used" WBG's blue-flip. This is both faulty logic and a misrepresentation. I eventually switched to Tunkeg because he was too sure of himself THROUGHOUT his filter on MULTIPLE subjects: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=77#1536 Also, I did find Tunkeg being "too sure" on his WBG read as scummy. Several players in the game (when Tunkeg posted his "martyr" thing) thought WBG was scum. It's really easy for scum to go "oh this guy is 100% scum I'm sure of it." Scum are confident because they know their objectives, and I thought a townie would be less-confident about such a read. I was clearly wrong. 2) Lack of Interest Funny enough, this isn't at all about my lack of interest, but more about my Tunkeg read. But anyway, my "lack of interest" was on display in Chrono Trigger Mafia as well. I was town. I was super-engaged in Mario Mini. I was scum. I've been in much of a different mood this game. I've been far less "involved" due to me being busy. That certainly reflects in my gameplay, but it's not allignment indicative. 3) My "Bus" of VE You are LYING Z-Boson On December 15 2012 10:18 Hapahauli wrote: Not time to vote Palmar. I'll have to look between jay, VE, BL, and Z-Bo for the next scummer. I was planning to post question VE about one of his posts if Tunkeg flipped red. That sadly didn't happen, but the post seems relevant regardless: The bolded is a pretty strong statement. I'm not sure if it's just poor wording or not, but he seems to be putting some heavy suspicion on Tunkeg, then dancing around the issue in favor of Z-Bo. This is my question to VE. You completely ignored it and quoted a different post. What gives? | ||
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1) Finds Tunkeg town for martyr post Tunkeg is most likely town. Much to my frustration, I feel I was wrong about him. I see no reason for him to go ahead and give away his scum-buddy (maybe two of them, if I'm right about bugs) in his death reads. 2) Asks me about Tunkeg, AGREES with me about Tunkeg: On December 13 2012 11:51 Z-BosoN wrote: Hapa, can you elaborate? Why do you think that Tunkeg looks worse now that WBG has flipped? On December 13 2012 12:31 Z-BosoN wrote: Yea I'll have to reassess Tunkeg I really thought him to be scum day 1 and thought he might be town since he included Adam as scum in his lists, but then again, that might not mean much, because Adam was pretty likely to get lynched when Tunkeg martyred. I'm off to sleep, Gnight 3) Yep, fuck that town read, I want to lynch Tunkeg On December 14 2012 14:29 Z-BosoN wrote: Now I see what you mean. It makes a lot of sense, and it goes along with the fact that I feel Tunkeg seems waaaay too certain of his reads this game. Btw, corrected your post ^^ I'll revert back to my original thoughts on Tunkeg. I to this day have not gotten over on how he ignored a case I made on a "suspicion" he had. ##Vote Tunkeg Also 4) "Guys, I know it's right before the lynch, but I want to make sure that you know I have reasons for voting Tunkeg even though everyone already is voting him." On December 15 2012 08:10 Z-BosoN wrote: I agree that Tunkeg is most likely to come out as scum. Since thread died down a bit, I decided to go over his filter again, and there's no way this guy is town in my mind. What specifically makes me doubtful is his interactions with Djo. Djo's someone whom he "leaning scum" in day one. I've already went over how his lack of response to my case on a "suspect" he had was bothersome, but I mean, his play in day two is completely nonsensical. He talks down to djo and actually criticizes palmar for wanting to lynch Djo, a supposed scum read. This makes no sense from a town perspective. See these: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=82#1634 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=82#1637 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=83#1644 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=84#1663 | ||
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On December 23 2012 12:25 Z-BosoN wrote: Hapa, your case is extremely weak and reeks of desperation. I didn't give a town read day one? Is that why I'm scum? You're probably comparing that to my play on mario which got me lynched. Well, compare that to my whopping ONE town read in liquid city: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371260&user=28495 (which a fairly obvious one on shady sands). And my ZERO town reads in XXVIII: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370487 I skimmed over these, but I think the count is right, you are free to check. Counting just day one of course. I usually like to give my thoughts on after we gain solid information. On the VE lynch, why are you lying? The deadline is @10:00 in the forum time. I made the vote one hour and 15 minutes before the deadline, because that's when I had to go. I didn't talk to VE because VE has been a dick ever since Liquid City. On Chronotrigger, note that even in the scum qt we didn't talk. Unless of course, you are going to use this as a tell and find my other teammate, who I also didn't talk to? Or is it because in your scummy I randomly chose VE? Pssht. Dealing with that second rebuttal post of yours in a sec You're totes right about the 1h 15min thing. However it still stands that you went from "I'm down with a lynch" to "ehhhh I want to park my vote on jay" to "fuck that! Lynch VE that fucker!"... all when it was convenient for you to do so. You didn't pursue your read on Vivax despite explicitly calling him scum, in favor of "being down with a VE lynch" Then, when VE claimed, you were in super-doubt-mode and wanted to leave a vote on Jay. Then when people didn't move their vote from VE, "LOL HE'S SCUM I'm sure!" It's not a consistent attitude, and you fail-bussed each other. | ||
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As for "investment", I was very invested in the early game. My investment shortly thereafter fell off a cliff when a) finals week started and b) other games that need-not-be-mentioned started. As for "meta read" on Tunkeg, my "meta reads" generally involve skimming a player's past games for a couple of minutes to determine a "feel" for how they play. Not that difficult or time-consuming. Seems to be fairly accurate in retrospect though. | ||
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Hmmmmmmmmm. But then who would the other two scum be... Rather than OMGUS each other Z-Bo, would you like to bounce off reads about the other three candidates? | ||
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On December 23 2012 10:28 Hapahauli wrote: After thinking about it some, I'm 99% sure that marv is town. Firstly, his veteran claim is very risky from a scum perspective. There's a high chance that there are 4 blues in this game. Given that he claimed veteran, he would risk a lot of pressure on himself had a 5th blue counterclaimed. No one has done so, and the risk/reward of such a fake-claim suggests that Marv is town. In addition, there are too many easy opportunities he has turned down to be scum. He could have very easily pushed the BL lynch and come out fine from it. In addition, of all the players he seemed the most concerned about finding out Djo's alignment and objectively considering things. Finally, he's been the most hesitant to jump on my lynch out of the players. As a last point, I'm coming away from his interaction with Tunkeg (page 11 of his filter) as pretty authentic: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953&user=140487¤tpage=11 I'm not sure why marv is alive right now, but his play shows far too much correlation with his town play (and not nearly enough with his scum-play) for him to be scum. | ||
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I can see GRush being scum in this manner, because some of his D1 posts are almost... prophetic for a player of his caliber: On December 12 2012 06:25 grush57 wrote: That's pretty reasonable. I'm a bit cautious of Bluelightz because he is a vet. Jay strikes me as a foolish townie and Tunk is probably a noobie. I want to vote Adam because he is reminding me of his scum play. I be like dang. Le probleme with this is that I have such a hard time seeing Marv as scum. Also, Munk-E dropped a pretty late vote on Adam as well, and well... I'm not scum *shrug* | ||
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Like his claim was pretty late today. Maybe he just saw that no-one claimed, and assumed it was safe (and therefore just claimed). Also, aside from his early vote on Adam, he hasn't been very impressive this game in the scum-hunting department. His two major contributions to this game in recent memory are him a) lynching Tunkeg and b) establishing Djo as town. However, I still find it very difficult to rationalize his level of engagement (this late in the game) from a scum perspective. He's been by far one of the most active players in the game and displays a level-headedness that I associate with town-marv. | ||
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Djo is capable of playing a really engaged scum-game... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381440&user=284165 But even so, his filter above (Mario Mini) was almost devoid of scumhunting. His cases this game seem remarkably genuine. | ||
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Normal Mini III GSL III Deathnote Mini In all three of these games, his activity and engagement is nowhere near what he's displaying this game. Normal Mini III is the closest comparison, but when the town's activity dies down towards the end, Marv is barely posting by the end. | ||
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On December 23 2012 13:36 Z-BosoN wrote: Yea I grabbed a snack. Hang in there. I'd like to know more of your town read on Djo. Is it still that day one stuff and his activity when being pressured? For two reasons: 1) His actions aren't coherent with a mafia "strategy." VE bussed Adam. Scum should have known that Adam was going down. Yet Djo goes and tries to last-minute voteswitch on both tunkeg and jay at the lynch deadline... I can't see the scum-mentality in that, especially since the mafia QT should have been on "BUS ALERT!" 2) His activity when pressured was absurd. He was bombing cases left and right. Such an insane amount of effort in scumhunting that I can only attribute to a townie. | ||
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On December 23 2012 13:49 Z-BosoN wrote: 1) Well, Djo has been around enough to work out how you and marv think. I tried the same thing in CT, where I went with sandro all the way trying to convince people, etc. then didn't really want to bus him in favor of another scum (Toad) 2) An engaged scum djo is perfectly capable of this, imo I feel that the game mechanics in CT made your "strategy" (bussing toad over sandro) quite normal in retrospect (Toad's abilities in particular). CT seemed more of a special case. I can't find a similar strategy here, especially when the deviation from the normal strategy would make you look TERRRIBLE. | ||
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On December 23 2012 14:02 Z-BosoN wrote: Well, for scum Djo, all three of his buddies were already bussing. Maybe he felt his bus wouldn't be able to feel natural during his previous posts (which pretty much defended adam from debears), and decided to stick with his momentum. I'm not confident that's enough to warrant a complete town read. He seemed to have Adam as slightly scum all D1. I don't think it would have looked bad at all for him to vote Adam. | ||
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On December 23 2012 14:06 Z-BosoN wrote: Looking at grush, I really can't see anything in his posts. I didn't see the big difference in his filter marv announced earlier, not even after running around my house naked three times. Djo is now a town read for him, despite him wanting to kill Djo badly earlier on. VE also manifested a town to scum transition in his filter. And he seriously thinks we are a scum team. I really can't make any of his posts. I mean on the one hand, Grush seems different personality wise from his scumgames. Unfortunately I can say this about everyone here. So beyond personality, his play individually seems scummy. There was that post I pointed out earlier, which was borderline prophetic of people's alignments. Certainly a far cry from his gameplay in LVII. Regarding his vote on Djo, he's super-convinced that he wants to vote Djo: On December 18 2012 11:07 grush57 wrote: Oh wow, goodjob guys. :D DJO NEXT? ;D Then in 10 minutes, decides that Djo is town: On December 18 2012 11:17 grush57 wrote: Honestly you have been pretty towny lately. Jay or Hapa plox. He seems to reverse himself pretty quickly, and all of a sudden comes up with good reasons why Djo is town: On December 18 2012 11:31 grush57 wrote: I was obsessed with djo but then I questioned myself why djo is scum. On December 18 2012 12:02 grush57 wrote: He has been scumhunting lately and made a case on VE pretty early on. There's more in there as well. Like he's really wants to lynch Djo until I coax him into voting VE, with which he immediately complies. He does something similar with the Tunkeg lynch, where he votes Tunkeg because "the bandwagon can't be stopped" On December 15 2012 05:50 grush57 wrote: So I assume he is posting bm to save himself? Or he knows he is going to die. I wouldn't consider this making him definite scum but the wagon is probably not going to stop. I still think that we should be lynching djordef but whatever. ##Unvote ##Vote: Tunkeg I know it's a case on GRush and whatnot, but it does seem like he's scum. He does seem to be behaving a lot like a "cooperative mafia" with his play. | ||
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On December 23 2012 14:12 Z-BosoN wrote: Looking at this post, he sets himself up for both options: So for him it's either look suspicious for an useless bus vote, or look like dumb townie for trying to sway the vote to a mislynch, if he's scum. Oh that quote is really interesting. See one of my reads about Djo is that he's someone who overreacts to things he's seen be successful. So he's really obsessed with blue-speculation because he caught a scum-team member like that in one of his newbie games. I feel the "last minute bandwagon" thing is similar - he saw one be successful in Mario Mini, wasn't very satisfied with the lynch, and wanted to emulate a similar success. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=112#2235 | ||
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Honestly I doubt I can talk my way out of a mislynch, but I have only myself to blame for my lazy/shitty play. Oh well. Hopefully I can find the last two scum for pride-sake. | ||
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Anyway, I'm off to bed, and I'll hopefully see y'all a couple of hours before the deadline. A last bit in my defense, I'd like to refer you to a quote from syllogism on suspicion and LYLO situations: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351398¤tpage=60#1195 On July 30 2012 08:16 syllogism wrote: For future reference if someone is getting lynched in a lylo with no resistance at all, you probably aren't on the right track This is from Newbie XXI, where I (as mafia) led a lynch on a townie at LYLO with zero resistance from the townsfolk. This game is shaping up to be the exact same way. I've had suspicion piled on me without any resistance whatsoever for the last two cycles. If you all think that there was no mafia intervention in this, the game is sadly lost. | ||
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Marv is scum. On December 22 2012 20:49 marvellosity wrote: I'll be back this evening to play properly (grmbl christmas shopping). Bluelightz's modkill is amazing for us. Given I'm alive at LYLO (??) I'll give my best interpretation for why. I am another Veteran. I didn't crumb because I thought it would be obvious when I got shot. I am assuming however that the mafia must have a Rolecop and investigated me at some stage - so double stacking me at any point in the last few days would mean that mafia would have needed an extra mislynch to win the game. Bluelightz's flip inherently makes me more suspicious of Z-Boson and Djodref. grush... I still think is town. Certainly it seems at least one of the scummers has been playing very well despite the collapse of his team otherwise. Marv claimed veteran. He's the 4th blue claim. The chances that there are 5 blues in this setup balance wise are... not very high. Yet marv's post regarding VE: On December 18 2012 09:23 marvellosity wrote: Z-Bo has gone according to his last post, i assume he's referring to what i pasted here. i fucking hate this. none of his play is townie, but i hate lynching uncounterclaimed DTs. djfnsdk I think we have to lynch him and hope he doesn't flip DT or we feel very stupid If marv is the veteran, he shouldn't show the slightest bit of doubt lynching VE here. VE would be the 5th blue claim in a 16 man game. ##Vote Marvellosity | ||
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On December 23 2012 20:53 marvellosity wrote: You do realise bugs' game had 5 or 6 blues in a 13 man game with 3 scum, right? We could have a gf/vigi/goon/rolecop setup, or whatever. I'm pretty sure I made a post earlier where I said anything between about 2-6 blues could be balanced depending on scum roles. I had no real reason to disclose my role earlier in the day, I wasn't under any particular amount of suspicion and I didn't need to make a play to 'save myself'. The simple fact is that it's lylo and I went for full disclosure. Djodref: what do you expect out of a veteran mentality? I'm motherfucking marvellosity. I post a shit-tonne, I help lynch scum on day 1, what more do I have to do to get shot? Historically I rarely crumb my roles; I did so in Rock Band because I felt insecure in my position near the start, but in games like LI or Dwarf Fortress I didn't breadcrumb my tracker role, I've never crumbed my vigi roles (again, because it would be obvious, like it should have been with my vet role). Ok maybe this was less of a "EUREKA" moment than I had thought. However, Hapa policy-lynch rule #2 (lynch marv at lylo) is starting to make much more sense to me right now. Outside of sheeping Palmar/debears on the Adam vote early on Day 1, you've been largely pushing mafia objectives. D2) Tunkeg lynch D3) Push three non-VE targets (Jay, myself, and Djo... seems like a townie crowd) D4) Jay lynch And now I see you convinced of my guilt. I've seen no frustration, or even hesitation about you lynching me today, despite it being a non-contested bandwagon at lylo. Like honestly - not a single person in this game has defended me for the last ~120 hours. And you think that I'm scum? Doubt it. As a last point, I saw a lot of frustration out of you when you pushed two mislynches in GSL II Mafia. I don't get any sense of frustration, urgency, or even emotion from you right now when the game is on the line. I'm pretty confident that you're flipping red. | ||
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I'd consider joining me on marv. He should not be alive right now. You can rationalize his behavior however you want, but actions speak louder than words. When one of the game's best town players is alive at LYLO with this rapport... However, Hapa policy-lynch rule #2 (lynch marv at lylo) is starting to make much more sense to me right now. Outside of sheeping Palmar/debears on the Adam vote early on Day 1, you've been largely pushing mafia objectives. D2) Tunkeg lynch D3) Push three non-VE targets (Jay, myself, and Djo... seems like a townie crowd) D4) Jay lynch ... alarm bells should be going off. Marv is scum. As for a Hapa + Z-Bo scumteam, think about it this way. The concensus regarding my lynch is that my "scummate" bussed me. If Z-Boson were my scumbuddy, the strategy we'd be using is insane. Our "plan" would be: 1) Bus Hapa for 5-6 days to build town credit 2) Light all that town-cred on fire, instead risking a gamble to win the game today by lynching one of the best town players on TL mafia. Yes that's sane. Keep thinking what you're thinking and town's going to lose. | ||
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On December 24 2012 01:32 grush57 wrote: Finished reading through thread. THE SCUM ARE TAKING OVER. MARV IS TOWN EL STUPIDOS. SO AM I. LYNCH HAPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AND ZBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO He's letting his attitude slip. Desperate scum right here. | ||
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Djo, where you at? We need to talk about the lynch some. | ||
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As for a Hapa + Z-Bo scumteam, think about it this way. The concensus regarding my lynch is that my "scummate" bussed me. If Z-Boson were my scumbuddy, the strategy we'd be using is insane. Our "plan" would be: 1) Bus Hapa for 5-6 days to build town credit 2) Light all that town-cred on fire, instead risking a gamble to win the game today by lynching one of the best town players on TL mafia. Yes that's sane. Keep thinking what you're thinking and town's going to lose. Agree, disagree? | ||
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Actions speak louder than words. Marv has been pushing mafia objectives all game, other than an early bus of Adam (which btw, is really easy to do, since he'd know Adam was scum). More importantly, marv has not pushed a correct lynch once all game. Think about that. Marv hasn't pushed a correct lynch all game. Town marv lynches scum. Scum marv lynches townies. Town marv has never been alive at lylo in any recent games. Pretty easy lynch IMO. | ||
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On December 24 2012 06:51 Djodref wrote: Mm. I disagree. Thrawn and Vivax would have gone after Z-Bo, and yeah, both of them are dead. Thrawn was convinced that one scum had to be among the people not voting Adam D1. This led him to write his Z-Bo case before, and he mentioned it again before being killed. Vivax has been tunneled but Z-Bo a lot this game, so I guess that he could have found him suspicious at some point. But that's the thing - your strategy is not coherent. We eliminated all the opposition to Z-Bo... then decided to go all out today? If that was our NK plan, Z-Bo would bus me today and he would be our endgame player. I still don't understand why you think a town marv is alive at lylo. | ||
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On December 24 2012 06:57 Djodref wrote: I don't know. It could be easy not to kill him to bring this argument. It's like reverse framing. Today is all or nothing imo, so why not bring marv along. Shit, I hate my position right now. Do you know what the first post in my Mario Mini Mafia QT was? http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/8tUWEsHeiEQ "Default rule - Marv dies N1. That is all." Killing marv is my #1 goal in all my scumgames. He's the player that's most familiar with my scum meta. That's also shows how much respect I have for his townplay - he will eat a scumteam alive if left alive for a long time. | ||
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On December 24 2012 07:01 Djodref wrote: Marv pushed Tunkeg lynch, but I did the same at that time. So it doesn't make him scum. Marv thought that the scumteam was Hapa/jay/Djo. I understand him being wrong about jay and me, because we are scummy town players. I don't know, I really like his reaction to WBG's bluff, when you did not even write a post. Tell me why a scum marv would have had a town read on BL ? How does it serve him ? He has a town-read on BL, because he doesn't need to have a scumread on him. He needed two lynches, jay and myself, to win the game. Everyone was agreeing, which made BL completely useless. Plus he could always 180 on that BL town read when I flipped green. Lastly, scum marv ALWAYS pushes mislynches. ALWAYS. Whether you agree with him is not the issue (hell I agreed with him at the time). The issue is whether or not he gets it right. He hasn't. | ||
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Deathnote Mini Mafia - Scum Normal Mini Mafia III - Scum And that's just recent memory. | ||
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On December 24 2012 07:05 Djodref wrote: So why did you keep a town read on marv for all game ? 'Cause he tricked me man. Also, if I had a town read on marv, and everyone had a town read on marv, why the fuck wouldn't he be dead right now? Do you seriously think that town marv would be allowed to live over players like thrawn and vivax... seriously? | ||
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On December 24 2012 07:08 Djodref wrote: And why is Z-Bo getting all worried right now ? I thought that he had you as scum. He can prove his innocence tomorrow... Because marv and Grush are going "Lol hapa + Z-Boson scum!" Should be pretty obvious to him who the scumteam is right now. | ||
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Why not? I got town-vibes in my conversation with him last night. Also, it's pretty clear that marv + grush are going all-in to win today. They have no choice. | ||
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I was wrong earlier today, and now I'm convinced I'm on the right track. You and grush are going all-in, and I'll do my damnest to stop you from winning. | ||
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On December 24 2012 07:14 Djodref wrote: Blew, I'm chosing between you or marv. I like it better like that... Fine with me. So rationalize how marv is alive? Also work through the NKs - how have players like thrawn, vivax, and debears died before a marv that everyone in the game has had a town-read on? | ||
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On December 24 2012 07:15 marvellosity wrote: hapa is pushing me as a scumread, having this fucking cycle given me a 99% townread. How much can you fucking flail. Give me a break. Remember this marv? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=48#943 Oh the memories. | ||
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On December 24 2012 07:15 grush57 wrote: How are we going " all-in". You and Z-bo are by far the most active today. Rofl. I just finished with a road-trip and I'm trying to lynch you and your scumbuddy. Of course I'm the most active. | ||
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On December 24 2012 07:17 Djodref wrote: But I could ask the same question to you: how the fuck are you still alive ? It's not like you are bad compared to marv... Easy, I've been a mislynch target all game. I haven't been confirmed town, and ever since N2, I've been one of the primary suspicions of the entire thread. Why would I be dead? What you should be asking yourself is why someone that everyone thought was town for 4 cycles is not dead. | ||
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On December 24 2012 07:18 marvellosity wrote: because that is like this game how? you yourself have said this game is nothing like that game. hi scum. I don't have to rationalize anything to you. I love ya buddy, but you're scum <3 | ||
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On December 24 2012 07:27 Djodref wrote: Plus regarding the mafia NKs, Palmar was town, and he didn't get NKed N1. Because he was a prime Jailkeeper target on N1. He was shot the second the JK died. Why wouldn't marv be shot? There was zero risk to kill him. | ||
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He hasn't even been here? Isn't he travelling? | ||
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On December 24 2012 07:34 marvellosity wrote: *looks back at all the times I died N1* *thinks that marv isn't a prime n1 target* *REMEMBERS THAT THE FUCKING JAILKEEPER TARGETED ME NIGHT 1* That makes you town how? So WBG JK'd scum by accident. Unfortunate, but we can fix this mistake tonight. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=153#3048 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=150#2994 But you should already know this since you caught-up in the thread: On December 24 2012 01:32 grush57 wrote: Finished reading through thread. THE SCUM ARE TAKING OVER. MARV IS TOWN EL STUPIDOS. SO AM I. LYNCH HAPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AND ZBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Oh wait. You lied. | ||
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On December 24 2012 07:38 marvellosity wrote: it doesn't make me town however, you going "WHY NO MARV DIE" doesn't make me scum, either. No, but your lack of killing scum is a pretty big tell. | ||
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On December 24 2012 07:39 marvellosity wrote: my sincerest apologies for only voting for scum 2 days out of 3 and then killing the guy that everyone thought was 100% scum afterwards. Seriously, hapa? You bussed Adam early because you knew you couldn't get away with not sheeping Palmar without looking horrifically bad. You pushed a lynch on a townie D2 You pushed to lynch jay, Djo, and myself on D3, then sheeped VE when you "finally realized" that he was completely absent from the thread. You pushed a lynch on a townie D4. You are scum brah. | ||
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On December 24 2012 07:44 Djodref wrote: So, let's assume that marv is town. He is not killed N1 because of the fear of the JK He is not killed N2 because he has Djodref as main target for the lynch and VE as town He is not killed N3 because of scum holding the KP He is not killed N4 for the WIFOM, So, yeah, it's possible for marv to be town. Do you realize how well the kills line up with scum marv? Debears would be the CLEAR choice for marv (as scum) to kill on Night 1. Palmar is the clear choice for anyone on Night 2. No NK on Night 3. Similar to how marv saved KP in both DeathNote Mini (as mafia) and Normal Mini Mafia (as mafia) later in the game. Night 4. Marv's two top town-reads died. | ||
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On December 24 2012 07:46 grush57 wrote: Yes. Marv being alive is the ONLY legitimate concern that z-bo and hapa have. Funny how you forget your own concerns in your filter. Whoops. On December 23 2012 07:41 grush57 wrote: Me(town)Dajoejoe(prollytown)marv(idkmanhowhestilllive:'()Hapa(scumms)Z-bo(scum) HAPA AND ZBO? Most likely. Marv still lives but scum prolly did that on purpose. If we mislynch, do we lose? Also... ##Vote: Hapahauli | ||
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On December 24 2012 07:47 Z-BosoN wrote: Djo. If you were scum hapa. You are bullshitting ur way out of a lynch. Someone (me) is pressuring you to reconsider a town read, giving you a golden chance to open another mislynch. Why would scum hapa give maintain this strong town read? Its shooting yourself in the foot. It makes no sense from a scum perspective. I dont care how big a case i made on him, im not ignoring this very important fact. In my pov its obvious now who the scums are, like hapa said. Kill marv Yaaaaay Z-Bo! I knew you'd come around <3 <3 <3 | ||
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I love ya buddy, but you scum <3 | ||
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On December 24 2012 07:53 grush57 wrote: So uhmm, you realize that you just made a mistake but just call me scum? OK. Nah. You forgot how concerned you were about marv being alive. | ||
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On December 24 2012 07:54 Djodref wrote: Which town read ? The town read on me ? How did you change your mind exactly ? Because I'm so townie and awesome and cool duh. | ||
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On December 24 2012 08:21 Djodref wrote: I know, I think that Z-Bo is the rolecop. What did he breadcrumb it or something? Doubt it, he's town. Once again. Marv is alive. Town marv is never alive at lylo. | ||
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On December 24 2012 08:30 Djodref wrote: Ok, I still have Hapa as scum. And I'm dead tired with the jet lag so I'm going to sleep because I don't think my mind is going to change. I'm sorry if I'm causing the loss of this game. My problem is that all of you had VE as town during D2. Z-Bo and Hapa scumteam make more sense than marv and grush scumteam, if I didmiss the whole marv is still alive thing. The problem is that you can't dismiss this. Once again, I refer you to the following - how does a Z-Boson + Hapa scumteam make sense? The strategy from us in this position is completely nonsensical. Z-Boson "bussed" me for the last 120 hours. Then all of a sudden we change plans at the last minute to lynch fucking "town" marv? That's the stupidest plan ever. Sorry bro, I'm not giving up on this game. You have to change your mind or we lose. | ||
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Z-Boson is not scum based on our interaction last night. Djodref has cared far too much about deciding this lynch to be scum. That leaves you and GRush. Unfortunately, Djo peaced out and won't win us the game =( | ||
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Like do you honestly think this is all some random act? | ||
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On December 15 2012 02:51 marvellosity wrote: Hey Tunkeg! Go walk off a cliff and die, you scummy, arrogant, awful little shit. On December 15 2012 02:52 marvellosity wrote: Hurray! I finally got an interaction out of Tunkeg. My life is complete On December 15 2012 03:08 marvellosity wrote: When Tunkeg gives back to TL Mafia by coaching, co-hosting, or hosting newbie games and putting his time in for other people, then he can talk smack to people like bugs or me. Otherwise he can shut his cakehole. Anyway I'm going to take a break for an hour or two, I'm still fuming 15 minutes on. On December 15 2012 03:18 marvellosity wrote: Overrated by who? What are you even basing this on? Are you basing this upon the nominations for most improved newbie, best town play, and best scum play in Mafia 2012 awards? Or just that I generally get along with people and they respect my opinions? Am I Palmar, or Foolishness, or syllogism, or sandroba? No. Did I ever claim to be? Does anyone ever say I am? No. On December 15 2012 03:25 marvellosity wrote: Tunkeg hates me and has always hated me he has problems Mostly complete sentences. Completely controlled. Whereas at Palmar in RockbandMini... On September 19 2012 01:53 marvellosity wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: Palmar fuck you On September 19 2012 01:54 marvellosity wrote: don't care On September 19 2012 01:57 marvellosity wrote: Palmar is being awful he should die he read my alignment correctly in NMM3 and I refuse to believe he'd so arbitrarily get it so wrong here straight OMGUS, deal with it On September 19 2012 02:28 marvellosity wrote: Palmar's play so far: 1. lol call 3 people scum for no reason 2. give out townreads to make self look townie (wow I can do this too, does this actually give town credit around here now? I should have known) 3. vote someone for no reason na, piss off Palmar. Out of control, emotional, town marv. | ||
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It's a shame this game will end in 2 hours. But of course we'll be friends after that again =) | ||
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On December 24 2012 09:55 marvellosity wrote: hey scumbo. i've had a nice day. christmas tree finally went up, and various other things that made me a bit emotional. plus you didn't get to weave your scum wiles over me. Ah. I spent most of the day in a car driving =( Setting up the christmas tree tonight though! Pretty excited for food, festivities, and whatnot =) | ||
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*rabble rabble rabble* | ||
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On December 24 2012 10:00 marvellosity wrote: our family went for a silver and blue theme. except we lacked blue. so they're gonna go get some blue shit tomorrow Oh man we're not that fancy. I think we're doing BBQ for food though, which would be awesome if I didn't have to grill things outside with snow around =/ | ||
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On December 24 2012 10:05 Z-BosoN wrote: Try again I tried to help u hapa i really did I hope u still like me Well played d00d! I put it together the second you made the vote >> | ||
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Also man. I can't believe no one realized that marv @ lylo = instant lynch. | ||
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On December 24 2012 10:17 grush57 wrote: Wait Marv was scum? I was sure he was town. looool Hapa's policy-lynch #2: Always lynch marv @ lylo | ||
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/w59fV9HUwCzB | ||
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On December 24 2012 10:22 grush57 wrote: I don't know why we voted for Hapa/marv instead of Zbo. I don't know why a single townie didn't vote marv >> | ||
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
I hate your new meta so much. Hate it so much TT | ||
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On December 24 2012 10:58 Z-BosoN wrote: Hapa dont take it too harshly, you played the last day well. You had us very worried when you syarted going all active and shit. I felt the need to go make that time-cosuming play that was fairly risky because you were strating to figure shit out. Town also didnt help not seeing how obvious it was we werent a scumteam Grats to marv for his insane amount of effort and guidance in this game This was not an easy win at all Thing is, I literally cannot figure out why you were scummy this game. | ||
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
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