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On November 21 2012 11:29 sandroba wrote:
Well I can tell people are town pretty consistently (even more so than finding who is scum), so I will select less likely to get shot players who I have a town read on to take on the mission .I don't see what's confusing about that.
I think scum will shoot certain players, regardless if they are considered town or not by the majority, if they are town quite early. That makes them not so good targets to be "confirmed" early on because it's a waste. If scum chooses to shoot the "likely town" group assuming I succeed in the mission, it preserves the town vets. If they choose to shoot the town vets it preserves the "likely town" group.
I hope this helps clear it up.
Well, that all depends on how similar to resistance mafia this really is. Given the fact that the wincon is completely different, I am leaning more to useful tools, and other such stuff for a successful party: things like the aperture black market, ability to PM or useable items. Alternatively, it could be help fighting Lavos. In the former case scum clearly wants the perks just as badly as town does. In the latter, they clearly don't (but if it's a "choose to use"-thing, then they want it so they can choose not to use it).
However, you are making sense that giving such perks (or whatever successfully completing a mission does) to already powerful players is maybe not the best way to go about it. Funnily enough, this is exactly the opposite argument you made in Holy Roman, where you were very active about becoming emperor, despite already being a target for mafia. What changed your mind?
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Okay, I missed that the OP says the scum automatically sabotage the mission, so the scum don't have a choice between helping and sabotaging, meaning whatever results from a successful mission is probably good for town and bad for scum.
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@Prom:
1. Never gonna happen: it's like a mayor campaign. Everybody who wants to be mayor will campaign regardless of what you say.
2. Gonna happen automatically: just as any votes, they will eventually gravitate to one or two players: in this case town reads instead of scumreads.
3. It's a terrible idea as it gives people an excuse to lurk (hey, they don't have to have opinions because you have excluded them from being party leaders anyway)
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Is town informed about the success or failure of a mission?
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On November 21 2012 11:51 Adam4167 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 11:03 Acrofales wrote:It's no more silly than a pressure vote off the bat in a normal setup  How do you know you don't gain anything from bringing vets. It's greymist and I am expecting minigames, unconfirmed masons and other shenanigans. Having a player like kush or adam there is NOT a good idea, even if they are town. You would paint me as useless before I even arrive to the thread? I'd like to hear your reasons, if you have them, or are you just discrediting people at random?
I've played with you in 2 or 3 games (can't remember if you were in SSM atm) and you were completely inactive in all of them. So... yes, I have a reason: you sign up and then maybe, if we get lucky, get the 1 post a day that is the minimum requirement to play. Prove me wrong and I will be a happy man!
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On November 21 2012 11:53 kitaman27 wrote:
Something that I just thought of that we may be able to take advantage of later on are name claims. It seems unlikely that there are multiple versions of certain characters running around. For example, if we were to have a likely town character such as Lucca name claim, we could elect her as leader. This however is based on the assumption that the alignment in this game is tied to the alignment of the video game. Until this becomes clear, I wouldn't be confident in trying to abuse the setup like this. Also, we would have to worry about the mafia being given certain fake claims, but this is something that is less of a threat, considering the potential reward.
We also have the option as town to enforce an additional party member selection vote. This limits the power of a single player, but it makes it easier for the mafia to sneak in one of their own in the 3rd of 4th slot. I think I'd rather put faith in the elected leader, to avoid the manipulation, assuming myself or my candidate of choice is elected.
You're really hanging this on the assumption that scum doesn't have safe claims. In general, I hate mass claims, because they break the game AND have a large chance to backfire.
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On November 21 2012 12:02 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 11:59 Acrofales wrote:On November 21 2012 11:53 kitaman27 wrote:
Something that I just thought of that we may be able to take advantage of later on are name claims. It seems unlikely that there are multiple versions of certain characters running around. For example, if we were to have a likely town character such as Lucca name claim, we could elect her as leader. This however is based on the assumption that the alignment in this game is tied to the alignment of the video game. Until this becomes clear, I wouldn't be confident in trying to abuse the setup like this. Also, we would have to worry about the mafia being given certain fake claims, but this is something that is less of a threat, considering the potential reward.
We also have the option as town to enforce an additional party member selection vote. This limits the power of a single player, but it makes it easier for the mafia to sneak in one of their own in the 3rd of 4th slot. I think I'd rather put faith in the elected leader, to avoid the manipulation, assuming myself or my candidate of choice is elected. You're really hanging this on the assumption that scum doesn't have safe claims. In general, I hate mass claims, because they break the game AND have a large chance to backfire. Who said I was suggesting a mass claim? I'm saying we could use a single name claim, only after we identify that the alignments in this game line up with the alignments in the video game. The mafia likely does have safe claims, but if we select a character at random, the odds are in our favor. The rewards certainly outweigh the risks in my opinion.
Oh, I misunderstood. I thought you wanted everybody to claim their name. I still don't like the idea, but I dislike it a bit less now. I see no real point in it. Lets say we get a "Crono" claim. I agree that names are probably unique, but who's to say this isn't a mafia with a safeclaim?
Lets put it this way: assuming mafia has safeclaims, how does a name when selecting a character at random have any added value over just plain selecting a character at random?
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On November 21 2012 12:10 Clarity_nl wrote:
I think hapa is an excellent choice judging by last game (mario mini) since he admitted himself his scum play is fairly weak compared to his town play.
I agree that any claim idea right now is terrible and shouldn't really be discussed.
So do you have a town read on Hapa right now? Mind explaining it?
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On November 21 2012 12:25 TheChronicler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 11:59 Oatsmaster wrote:
random fluff post,
Lotta Brazilians :O Useless. Don't post like this. Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 12:14 Clarity_nl wrote:
I do not have any kind of read on anyone yet. He would be a good choice because if he's scum it'll show comparatively to his town play. Who is he? I'm assuming Hapa. ---------------------------------------------- I'd like to be the party leader. I'm an unknown (hopefully) and no one will make stupid bullshit meta reads on the leader that would probably be worse than a coin flip. That's pretty much the only reason I want to lead. I don't even want to pick who will be the three on my team, which takes me to the next part of my pitch, and something I hope whoever is leader uses. If I'm leader I don't want to choose the three people with me. I want to choose three people to choose three people who will be on the team. They can choose themselves if they'd like. Why do this? Because it gets us more information. If I'm not chosen leader I'd like the person who IS chosen to implement this system. We still get information from who the leader chooses, AND we get information based upon who the three chosen people choose.
So you want to be as unaccountable as possible. I want you to explain what USEFUL information you think we can gain from this plan? It gives us more sources of information, but less information about more things. Seems to confuse matters. How do you plan to put this "extra" information to good use?
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On November 21 2012 12:41 TheChronicler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 12:35 Acrofales wrote:On November 21 2012 12:25 TheChronicler wrote:On November 21 2012 11:59 Oatsmaster wrote:
random fluff post,
Lotta Brazilians :O Useless. Don't post like this. On November 21 2012 12:14 Clarity_nl wrote:
I do not have any kind of read on anyone yet. He would be a good choice because if he's scum it'll show comparatively to his town play. Who is he? I'm assuming Hapa. ---------------------------------------------- I'd like to be the party leader. I'm an unknown (hopefully) and no one will make stupid bullshit meta reads on the leader that would probably be worse than a coin flip. That's pretty much the only reason I want to lead. I don't even want to pick who will be the three on my team, which takes me to the next part of my pitch, and something I hope whoever is leader uses. If I'm leader I don't want to choose the three people with me. I want to choose three people to choose three people who will be on the team. They can choose themselves if they'd like. Why do this? Because it gets us more information. If I'm not chosen leader I'd like the person who IS chosen to implement this system. We still get information from who the leader chooses, AND we get information based upon who the three chosen people choose. So you want to be as unaccountable as possible. I want you to explain what USEFUL information you think we can gain from this plan? It gives us more sources of information, but less information about more things. Seems to confuse matters. How do you plan to put this "extra" information to good use? I don't want to be as unaccountable as possible. If you think it's a better idea then why not have it go leader chooses three > three choose 3 others, can't choose themselves. Leader will want to choose people who he has certain reads on, since he will want the event to succeed, and those three will want to choose someone they have a certain read on. We get information from all the choices, and avoid the problem where everyone will just choose themselves.
This is just as bad. All you're doing is taking accountability away from yourself and diluting it in such a way that it is impossible to check who is to blaim for a failure.
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On November 21 2012 12:49 marvellosity wrote:
then we make sure we don't elect a scum person.
can't be that hard to make just one or two very likely town reads, no? ^^
In fact, I already HAVE a likely town read! PS. It's not you.
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Fine. My town read is on TheChronicler. He's either new to the game or a longtime vet fucking with us. In the former case, a noob scum would not be proposing some shitty plan like that. In the latter, he was gauging reactions and hoping to get scum to bite. Also, not a scumplay.
It's not a very useful town read, though, because I don't want to vote for him precisely because his plan was terrible.
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Eh, Prom, that was what I was thinking too. I wanted to keep it to myself at least til the morning, but I figured one read was not going to do any harm.
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On November 21 2012 19:21 Dienosore wrote:
I never said day 1 was useless... just that it's nearly impossible to have a perfect read on anyone at this point. And no, I don't expect anyone to actually listen to what I'm saying, especially when there are so many other solid players in the game with us. Maybe once I establish some credibility, sure, but until then I'd imagine I'm going to be generally ignored.
I'm reading every post everybody makes very carefully. I assure you most people in this game are, despite the large volume of posts.
From your explanation of your scumreads, you seem to have a decent grasp of the basics: you are going over the way people are posting and why they are posting that. However, the second step is to explain it to us rubes who do NOT have the accuity in discovering scummy motivations in pronoun juxtaposition and verb tenses.
Because I am currently more interested in Djoref, can you please tell me what pronouns and verbs made you think he was scum?
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On November 21 2012 19:29 risk.nuke wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 10:51 Acrofales wrote:This is going to be so much fun. I finally made it into a greymist game  I am going to go out and assume that Lavos will be a game element and not a player, seeing as he will be "summoned" later in the game. So I am going to assume that the quests are to get to Lavos, and get any town advantages we can on the way (somewhat similar to Resistance mafia). My suggestion is thus to play this just like resistance mafia. Everybody suggests the party they will make if chosen as leader today and gives their reasons. This should be done by 12 hours (or maybe 6, given that it's day 1 and people still need to get going) before the deadline, giving people time to vote on their preferred party leader. To get the discussion started, I would currently choose Marv, Sandro and Syllo along: I know them, I know Sandro and Syllo work well together, and I know they are all good players. I have no clue what the quest will be, so bringing the best players simply seems prudent. However, as the day goes on this may change if I get clear scum reads on any of them. For Sandro and Syllo I feel a scumread is viable in D1. I don't think I can get a read on Marv in D1, but he's still more readable than Toad, who I would otherwise put in that spot. Acrofales, can you elaborate why you immediately wanted to pick Sandroba, Marv, Syllo to go? What did you think would be the benefits and risks of sending three of our best players?
Not reading the thread already?
I was under the impression (and still expect it to be a very real possibility), that a successful mission will give the party members benefits (items, mason chat, a level up, whatever) that will help us root out mafia and/or directly aid us in fighting Lavos. The best players in the game are naturally the best equipped to use such perks. That is, if they're town.
Sandro brought up a good counterargument, and making scum choose between shooting likely party members and shooting experienced town players is a good policy.
On that note, @Sandro: you have not explained why this policy is pretty much the complete opposite of your proposal in Holy Roman, where you (a veteran and likely target for scum kp) wanted yourself as emperor (and thus a likely target for scum kp) precisely because you are an experienced player.
On a similar note, if we follow that logic through, Sandro should not be party leader.
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On November 21 2012 16:55 Djodref wrote:I would like you to vote for me !I don't know if I'm going to get the answers from my latest questions to the hosts but I know believe that the best way for the party leader to chose his party members is to do it in complete secrecy. The next day, I would reveal the members if the event resolves in a failure and I would not reveal them if the event resolves in a success. I'm going to base my election campaign on this plan. In a battle of information, you should give the least possible clues to your enemy. Of course, it would mean that you have to totally trust me on this one. Trust me on the fact that I'm town and trust me on my reads ! I'm ok if people would rather townhunt than scumhunt but I think I'll spend the rest of my day scum hunting rather than town hunting and of course promoting my own election ! I'm totally open to discuss the validity of my plan and if anyone has some ideas to contribute to it ##Vote: Djodref
Djodref for party leader ! Trust me, I'm town and I have good intuition. I'll take my responsibilities in case of failure, I'll keep the info outside of mafia reach in case of success ! I'll give you everything in due time and I'm promoting traditional scum hunting for day !
What if you get shot? What if the party succeeds and you get shot before you tell us who was on it? Party leader and formation (and the team's subsequent success or failure) seems to be our ONLY source of town-controlled information this game. If you die before you can give this info to town, we lose that information. Seems like a heavy price to pay and a giant target on your head.
Also, I somewhat expect the game will reveal the party members. Without that, the mechanics would give us very very little modconfirmed information, which seems unbalanced (although if there is enough KP flying around we probably have flips, etc).
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On November 21 2012 13:37 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 13:31 Keirathi wrote:On November 21 2012 13:25 Hapahauli wrote:
1) "I'm not going to vote marv unless I have a town read on him."
2) "I'm going to vote someone unless he's giving me a 'scummy vibe.'"
Those two statements mean very different things. The first expresses reservation - that you're not going to vote someone UNLESS you have a town read on them. The second expresses no hesitancy - that you're vote is determined unless marv shows you otherwise. Okay, I guess I see what you're getting at. Just poor wording on my part, I guess. But really, there is no "neutral" ground for me when it comes to marv. Either I believe that he is town, or he is giving off scummy vibes that give me pause. EBWOP: No, you know what. It wasn't poor wording. It's just you trying to poke holes where there aren't any. If marv isn't giving me scummy vibes, then I'm going to have a town read on him. If I have a town read on him, I will vote him today 100%.
If Marv is a 3P, will you get "scummy vibes" from him? In fact, I doubt your ability to pick up scummy vibes from Marv at all on D1, regardless of Marv's alignment.
I agree with Toad that this feels like a very cheap justification for parking your vote with no real justification at all.
So explain to us all:
Why do you think Marv is town unless he gives off scummy vibes? Am I town unless I give off scummy vibes? How about CaveJohnson (add other random unknown smurf here if you prefer)?
What exactly constitutes a scummy vibe? I know Marv is rather notorious for hiding his scummy vibes really well. What makes you so confident that your long experience of playing with him let you find these scummy vibes?
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@syllo and phagga: you advocate a policy of scumhunting, yet are doing no scumhunting. People who seem to be clearly focused on scumhunting so far: clarity and toad. Why are you not in that list?
Syllo at least is giving a running commentary of the game. Phagga just posted the policy of scumhunting and went away.
Phagga, why are you not practicing what you preach?
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On November 21 2012 21:02 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 20:52 Acrofales wrote:On November 21 2012 16:55 Djodref wrote:I would like you to vote for me !I don't know if I'm going to get the answers from my latest questions to the hosts but I know believe that the best way for the party leader to chose his party members is to do it in complete secrecy. The next day, I would reveal the members if the event resolves in a failure and I would not reveal them if the event resolves in a success. I'm going to base my election campaign on this plan. In a battle of information, you should give the least possible clues to your enemy. Of course, it would mean that you have to totally trust me on this one. Trust me on the fact that I'm town and trust me on my reads ! I'm ok if people would rather townhunt than scumhunt but I think I'll spend the rest of my day scum hunting rather than town hunting and of course promoting my own election ! I'm totally open to discuss the validity of my plan and if anyone has some ideas to contribute to it ##Vote: Djodref
Djodref for party leader ! Trust me, I'm town and I have good intuition. I'll take my responsibilities in case of failure, I'll keep the info outside of mafia reach in case of success ! I'll give you everything in due time and I'm promoting traditional scum hunting for day ! What if you get shot? What if the party succeeds and you get shot before you tell us who was on it? Party leader and formation (and the team's subsequent success or failure) seems to be our ONLY source of town-controlled information this game. If you die before you can give this info to town, we lose that information. Seems like a heavy price to pay and a giant target on your head. Also, I somewhat expect the game will reveal the party members. Without that, the mechanics would give us very very little modconfirmed information, which seems unbalanced (although if there is enough KP flying around we probably have flips, etc). Well, obviously, being the only visible target, I'm counting on a doc or a protective role to keep me alive for the night. I'm not sure if the party is going to be revealed or not the day after but I don't see any way for us to be sure if the party leader is going to respect his word concerning his choice for the party members. I would like to get some answers from the hosts before speculating too much on his though.
Okay, I agree with you that we could use some answers.
Is town notified of the success or failure of an event?
Is town told who were the party members?
If you cannot answer, please at least say that you cannot answer
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On November 21 2012 21:27 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 21:23 Acrofales wrote:
@syllo and phagga: you advocate a policy of scumhunting, yet are doing no scumhunting. People who seem to be clearly focused on scumhunting so far: clarity and toad. Why are you not in that list?
Syllo at least is giving a running commentary of the game. Phagga just posted the policy of scumhunting and went away.
Phagga, why are you not practicing what you preach? What are you talking about? I'm absolutely hunting for mafia. This is how you do it; by engaging in conversations and asking for clarifications and opinions. Making cases is for convincing everyone else.
First time you engaged in a conversation was with Sandro. For you that is not a conversation, as you and Sandro can mindread each other.
This is the second conversation you are engaging in. Everything else has been a running commentary.
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EPT
