EPTAperture Mafia 2: Portal Edition - Page 18
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ghost_403
United States1825 Posts
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On October 02 2012 06:05 ghost_403 wrote: JH, why are you spending so much time defending yourself instead of just hunting for scum? And austin, why are you taking part of this conversation? I'm trying to figure out what the two of you are actually talking about, and I can't figure it out. Ghost, hunt for scum first, then question the amount of scumhunting I've done. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 02 2012 06:09 ghost_403 wrote: @Keir: I'll give you something to argue about as soon as I'm done writing it. Still convinced Nisani is scum? I wouldn't say that I'm convinced that he is scum. But yes, he is the person I feel strongest about. His posts regarding me reek of someone with extra information. | ||
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ghost_403
United States1825 Posts
On October 02 2012 06:11 Keirathi wrote: I wouldn't say that I'm convinced that he is scum. But yes, he is the person I feel strongest about. His posts regarding me reek of someone with extra information. You're one of one person currently on that vote, best of my knowledge. If you're so convinced he's scum, why aren't you pushing for it in the thread? | ||
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
On October 02 2012 05:36 ghost_403 wrote: IMP doesn't read like scum to me at a moment. I didn't see anything substantial in the cases presented in the thread to change my mind on that at the moment. Do you think that he would misrepresent you the way that he did as town? | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 02 2012 06:15 ghost_403 wrote: You're one of one person currently on that vote, best of my knowledge. If you're so convinced he's scum, why aren't you pushing for it in the thread? What else can I say? I voted for him, and tried to get people to read why and comment on it, but I was just ignored. Everyone is just giving him a null read (or maybe slightly scummy, but not enough to vote). So I settled for talking about the other ongoing cases and deciding if I find someone scummier than Nisani. I haven't yet. | ||
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Mementoss
Canada2595 Posts
On October 02 2012 06:08 austinmcc wrote: Mementoss, what's your read on Keirathi? He's pretty null leaning town to me. The first bit was kinda awkward and I already explained my thoughts on that, but other than that he seems to be unafraid to post his mind openly and honestly. The only problem is his lack of scum hunting and not pushing his main scum reads at all. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 02 2012 06:19 Keirathi wrote: What else can I say? I voted for him, and tried to get people to read why and comment on it, but I was just ignored. Everyone is just giving him a null read (or maybe slightly scummy, but not enough to vote). So I settled for talking about the other ongoing cases and deciding if I find someone scummier than Nisani. I haven't yet. EBWOP: What I mean is, the case isn't gaining traction, and I don't think I have enough to convince anyone off of their null reads to vote for him. He has very little in the way of content for people to analyze. Its getting down to crunch time and we're going to have to consolidate onto someone at some point. Last I looked, there were literally votes on 8 out of the 13 players. Continuing to push someone that isn't going to get lynched is useless. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On October 02 2012 06:23 Keirathi wrote: EBWOP: What I mean is, the case isn't gaining traction, and I don't think I have enough to convince anyone off of their null reads to vote for him. He has very little in the way of content for people to analyze. Its getting down to crunch time and we're going to have to consolidate onto someone at some point. Last I looked, there were literally votes on 8 out of the 13 players. Continuing to push someone that isn't going to get lynched is useless. We don't have to consolidate at all. Greymist is just being confusing. This game is a simple majority lynch. Whoever has the most votes at the end of the day will be lynched. From the OP. The description includes the word majority, but it's a simple majority, with the description not matching what we think of as "Majority lynch". | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 02 2012 06:26 JingleHell wrote: We don't have to consolidate at all. Greymist is just being confusing. From the OP. The description includes the word majority, but it's a simple majority, with the description not matching what we think of as "Majority lynch". Yes, I realize that. Its basically plurality. That doesn't mean we don't need to consolidate. Having votes out on 2/3 of the players in the game just gives scum a place to hide. IMO, we need a polarized vote so that scum are forced to pick a side and justify it. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On October 02 2012 06:29 Keirathi wrote: Yes, I realize that. Its basically plurality. That doesn't mean we don't need to consolidate. Having votes out on 2/3 of the players in the game just gives scum a place to hide. IMO, we need a polarized vote so that scum are forced to pick a side and justify it. So that we can argue WIFOM with each other regarding what votes mean, when the scum team will actually be divided anyways most likely? No, the main reason I could imagine seeing that as critical would be if we were at MYLO, to make it a little harder for scum to swing last minute. | ||
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ghost_403
United States1825 Posts
On October 02 2012 00:53 Keirathi wrote: Can we talk more about this guy? 1) Jumps in to white-knight the "newbie". Such an easy thing for scum to do, especially on day 1 in a relatively inactive game. Admittedly, a townie could do that too, but I find it hard to believe that a townie would have that strong of a conviction that I was town making a "newbie mistake" rather than a scum making a dumb one. 2) "I think its pretty stupid for anyone to vote Keir, but why did drazerk unvote Keir?" Can anyone explain that logic? If its dumb for someone to vote me, why is it also dumb for someone with their vote on me to unvote me? On October 02 2012 01:35 Keirathi wrote: Anyways, I still want to lynch either Nisani or ghost. I am loathe to give ghost a free pass for such atrocious reasoning, and then complete inactivity. He hasn't even attempted to explain himself, and I have trouble trying to conjecture a townie reasoning for it. My gut still says he is a VI-type role though, and it would make his play perfectly understandable. Nisani on the otherhand, I can definitely believe is scum. His posts just reek of knowing my alignment beforehand. ##vote: Nisani201 I just talked to Keir about this, and he says he's pretty confident that Nisani is scum. Kind of weird considering that he's given so little reasoning for his vote. Let's take a moment to compare and contrast this to his initial vote on Mattchew: On September 30 2012 11:21 Keirathi wrote: So lets get this game really started: Mattchew I'm sure he has some town games somewhere in his filter, but every game I've seen him play in recent memory he's been scum (I Can't Believe Its Not Themed, DBZ, LVII). So what has he done this game? Claimed town. Made sure we knew that he was town again. Started some pointless setup talk that hasn't actually generated useful discussion. I don't see any way that speculating on scum team/third party numbers is working towards finding scum. It's just bullshit to fill up the thread, and everyone regardless of alignment can reasonably comment on it. So yea, I'm thinking Mattchew rolled scum yet again. ##Vote: Mattchew This is his post in Mattchew. Here, he's taken the time to go back through Mattchew's previous games, and looked at what he had to say Day 1, accused him of setup discussion, and applied some pressure on him. At least that's what I'm assuming he was trying to do. He's put some time and effort into this case, which is funny, because he immediately throws it out the window. Why on earth would Keirathi put time and effort into a case against mattchew, then immediately abandon it for another lackluster case? Why wouldn't a town Keirathi, at the very least, spend a minute or two looking through Nisani's previous games if he's so convinced he's scum? There's a clear disparity between the amount of effort he's put in on the first and on the second, and I can't see Keirathi doing that as town. I'm also really upset with dialogs like this: On October 02 2012 06:09 ghost_403 wrote: @Keir: I'll give you something to argue about as soon as I'm done writing it. Still convinced Nisani is scum? On October 02 2012 06:11 Keirathi wrote: I wouldn't say that I'm convinced that he is scum. But yes, he is the person I feel strongest about. His posts regarding me reek of someone with extra information. On October 02 2012 06:15 ghost_403 wrote: You're one of one person currently on that vote, best of my knowledge. If you're so convinced he's scum, why aren't you pushing for it in the thread? On October 02 2012 06:19 Keirathi wrote: What else can I say? I voted for him, and tried to get people to read why and comment on it, but I was just ignored. Everyone is just giving him a null read (or maybe slightly scummy, but not enough to vote). So I settled for talking about the other ongoing cases and deciding if I find someone scummier than Nisani. I haven't yet. On October 02 2012 06:23 Keirathi wrote: EBWOP: What I mean is, the case isn't gaining traction, and I don't think I have enough to convince anyone off of their null reads to vote for him. He has very little in the way of content for people to analyze. Its getting down to crunch time and we're going to have to consolidate onto someone at some point. Last I looked, there were literally votes on 8 out of the 13 players. Continuing to push someone that isn't going to get lynched is useless. I really don't like the logic that he presents here in this conversation. Two things in particular: one he's given himself a free pass to not scumhunt because he's given a few reads, and second, he's all but abandoned the one scum read he does have. If Keirathi is town, why isn't he fighting for his lynch? Why isn't he upset that no one is listening to him? Why isn't he being aggressive and pushing his reads? The answer that I come up with to explain this is that Keirathi is not town. It explains why he put in effort into analyzing before the game really began (to avoid lying about it later), why he's voting a weak read at the moment, and why he doesn't care that his scum read isn't getting lynched. | ||
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Nisani201
United States1400 Posts
First of all, I understand what jingle is saying about being discouraged to be aggressive because of playing a lot of shitty games. I've played plenty of bad games as town and they don't push me to play better. See learned helplessness. I also think it's unfair to call out Jingle for not scumhunting because he's been under fire this entire game. I don't think he's scum. I'm null on perfection-- I don't like how he's only talking about ghost but other than that he doesn't have anything else scummy about him. I'd like to hear about his reads on other people. I still don't understand why we're letting Drazerk get away with playing an incredibly shitty game. He has *way* too many null reads and is barely contributing. I'm going to keep my vote on him. I mean just look through his filter and you'll see how little he's contributed. Gonzaw is someone I'm going to spend some more time looking into. Something feels off about him. | ||
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Nisani201
United States1400 Posts
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Nisani201
United States1400 Posts
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ghost_403
United States1825 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 02 2012 06:30 JingleHell wrote: So that we can argue WIFOM with each other regarding what votes mean, when the scum team will actually be divided anyways most likely? No, the main reason I could imagine seeing that as critical would be if we were at MYLO, to make it a little harder for scum to swing last minute. Gimme a minute to find some quotes from discussion I've seen talking about plurality vs majority. 1) From BlazingHand in a coaching QT for a player in a newbie game: plurality lynch is a funny one. Basically, it favors scum because town feels less pressure to consolidate-- people will push competing wagons of similar size. It's more dangerous for scum, though, because the smaller and more numerous wagons increase chances for them to get caught and analyzed. At MYLO it's pretty easy to just say "we all need to vote together", but today it would have been nice if there was a single clear counterwagon for Thrawn for people to focus onto. Personally, if I think the main wagon guy is town, I try to gather up votes from the other counterwagons, also. I say "look guys, you also think thrawn is town, why don't we band together and lynch this guy?" in addition to trying to convince people on the main wagon. The easiest thing to do is just pretend it needs a majority to lynch and work hard to build that majority-- if there are like 3 small wagons, scum can EASILY tip the scales to mislynch, but if there are just 2 wagons, it's harder. 2) From marv's host notes of the same game: goodkarma starts to get it: "Regarding the Plurality Vote System, a little after the fact: The plurality vote system was quite deceptive, and I feel I am in part to blame for the indecision we’ve had in establishing clear lynch candidates. Instead of having 3+ candidates we really needed to consolidate into two and treat it like a majority vote system. We’ve allowed scum to hide by more or less giving them a pass to vote whoever they want as long as they can give some wishy-washy reason why. For this reason, don’t expect to spot them from vote history." I tried going through my irc logs with marv where we were discussing that game and the plurality thing, but it was interspersed with conversation about Dwarf Fortress too. Anyways, that's basically how I feel. Scum can too easily swing the vote onto the candidate they want if everyone just has 1 vote on them at the end of the day. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 02 2012 06:49 ghost_403 wrote: @nisani: Then why did he put more time in it than the case against you, which is something that he said on this page is real? I spent a whopping 5 minutes finding Matt's first posts in each of his games. So yes, I did spent 5 minutes more effort deciding if there was an actual pattern or if he just randomly says whatever he feels like in his first post. Going through Nisani's meta, what exactly would I be looking for to confirm my feeling that he has too much information in this game? Even if I spent hours carefully reading all of his games, anything I find would just be colored with confirmation bias. | ||
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
It's a nice theory, but it still comes down to "Do you believe X's reason to vote for Y is legitimate?" "Do you believe X is scum?" As a counterpoint, "Consolidation" provides the perfect excuse to hop wagons without a valid reason. "Everyone wanted to consolidate, and I felt like X was slightly scummier than Y. Blame Q for suggesting we consolidate, not me!" There's never guarantees, and anything can be turned to an advantage by anyone, if the circumstances and argument are right. I don't think one option or the other is inherently any better. At least if you don't push for consolidation, then people who choose to consolidate might still face serious pressure to explain a mislynch vote. | ||
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