EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXVIII - Page 3
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On September 30 2012 03:00 Z-BosoN wrote: I actually find some of your arguments very compelling. I agree that his 180 on Djodref looks scummy, but I don't agree with your original argument that him making that case on both you and Djodref is inherently scummy just because the cases are similar.I urge everyone to read this exchange. My lines are in red. He still feels the need to use the same elements he did initially: My case is OMGUS, it's weak, it's bad, etc. This post comes off to me as cornered scum trying to squirm his way out, but that could be just me tunneling him hard. Everyone please take the time to read and see if you agree with me. I however think that your pressuring has yielded fruit. I happen to agree that your initial feud with debears was on pretty shaky grounds, which is why I spoke out against you at that point. It may just have been me misinterpreting your tone/intentions, but nevertheless I feel most of the early-game arguments debears put forward were relatively sound, and you weren't necessarily in the right for attacking them. His responses do seem convoluted though. To be fair, I think his "scum slip"(the one where he all but proclaimed Djod town) is pretty much the exact same type of slip that kush committed. Basically, directly suggesting that he should pm marv could be seen as him knowing djod's alignment. But I think just as with the kush slip, it's definitely not 100%. It could be a typo, he could have just been lazy and not wanted to say marv/hapa, there could be many different reasons. Anything he says himself probably won't sway anyone though. I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more of an outcry about it. So to sum up, I disagree that debears is clearly wrong for saying that your initial case was weak, however, I feel like he has some pretty scummy explanations for some of his actions, particularly wrt Djodref. I think your case has gone from pretty nit picky to a rather strong case. So I think I'll withdraw my FoS on you, your explanation for your behaviour concerning SDM earlier was satisfactory, and I will probably have to go through your case against him at least one more time before I can be sure, but it seems to be pretty solid to me. I would like to see some input from the less active players with regards to the entire debears/boson debate. Because currently I'm having pretty much null reads on all of the following: Omniscient, RemedySC, Corrosion, Djodref(someone else remind me if there's anyone I've missed please). A few of them have posted slightly scummy or slightly town, but either way it's very difficult for me to make up my mind one way or the other right now. If we assume that kush wasn't trolling us with the "I'm red" part, then we have quite some time before we ever need to worry about mylo/lylo, but I'd still like for us to get there without either being forced to lynch 4 null-reading lurkers, or to have them left in the game at that stage. | ||
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Sweden995 Posts
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Sweden995 Posts
That being said, this was definitely a win, I agree with the sentiment that Darth is leaning heavy town at this stage, but unfortunately we don't really have the ability to confirm anyone else. Everyone who jumped the wagon against kush after the slip could just as well be scum as town since we have no way of telling when the bussing began. The only other player who spoke out against kush with any force before the slip was Debears, and he did so in a pretty indecisive manner which neither confirms nor denies his intentions towards kush at that stage. So while I don't agree that it was the best choice at the time, I think we should be happy with the fact that Darth was as inquisitive as he was before the slip granting us the benefit of a now near confirmed townie. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On September 30 2012 05:04 Stutters695 wrote: I suppose. I didn't intend to say that it was equally damning/not damning, only that the slip(if it is one) is the same type. Using the word "townie" to describe a person if you know them to be town is in my mind the same thing as giving someone the name of the town coach, if you know that he is town.I disagree with this. Yes, it is suspicious, but not nearly as bad as Kush's. It definitely merits looking into, but compare the differences. I would reason it is equally likely to be a scum slip compared to a townie. Kush's slip called someone town (not his normal meta to refer to everyone as town) on someone he was accusing of being scum. Debears told someone to PM marv for help. Even if he was scum I think it'd be more likely that his reasoning for saying Marv isn't to tell Djo exactly who to pm as to come off as town himself by referencing that he has the town coach. Yes, I suppose there might be a few more plausible explanations for debears' statement, but either way no one can trust them since only debears knows what his intentions were, so it's a moot point. I was just a bit surprised that there hadn't been as much of an outcry about it as kush's slip. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On September 30 2012 05:37 Z-BosoN wrote: Was that a question directed to me? Or to everyone in general?I've taken a look at Alsn's lurker lists filters and found some interesting things. Out of those four, who do you think would be the third scum, assuming it's one of them? | ||
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Sweden995 Posts
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Not sure if you even want to know, but at the time of, as you say, act III - IV, I had a gut feeling that things were going way too easy for kush to be scum, and that made me doubt the motivations of DarthPunk, as well as the fact that I had found you pretty scummy from the day before. When I was going to make a case against either of you however, I only found the few questions I asked DP about, but which I then later found out was just him being rightfully(I thought he was out to get me for no apparent reason) suspicious of me. Then as I went through your filter, you started to make more and more sense, just like I and everyone else has pointed out, your case against debears now has merit, which pretty much meant that I just didn't find you as scummy as I thought you would be. So yea, the two scum reads that I didn't actually have, weren't actually scummy. Trying to make a case against someone for no reason seemed like inherently anti-town, so I just gave up when I thought about just why I thought kush was town, what had he done that helped town? While I imagine being a victim like that would be pretty harsh, nothing he had done had tried to show that he really was a victim, so I went along with the lynch. I had to vote for someone. That being said, this discussion helps no one, If you think I'm scummy, go ahead and think so, I won't be lynched for another 2,5 days either way so I'll have tons of time to make myself useful. Like I said to kush, actions speak louder than words, I don't expect anyone to judge me in any other way. | ||
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Sweden995 Posts
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Sweden995 Posts
On September 30 2012 18:50 DarthPunk wrote: Now you're just misunderstanding me, I had a gut scum read on you due to me feeling unjustifiably attacked. I didn't want to say that out loud while I was questioning you at the time. But like I explained when I examined your filter as well as when you replied to me, things became much clearer and thus I re-evaluated you.I thought you had a town read on me? But after that I am one of your scum reads and you try to build a case on me? That sort of doesn't match up with the afore mentioned town read. | ||
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Sweden995 Posts
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Sweden995 Posts
If you absolutely want me to respond in more detail I will, but I don't see the town benefit in me spending a bunch of time explaining my reasons for my posting so far, since anything I say at this point could just be seen as scum excuses. I made some mistakes in my reasoning, chiefly overreacting to Darth pressuring me, but also probably overestimated how scummy Z-BosoN's early comments were. If anything, I'd rather be held responsible if I don't actually shape up from now on. | ||
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Sweden995 Posts
So with that out of the way, expect a big post from me sometime during the evening. | ||
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My original post included the full spoilered quotes of their conversations. Unfortunately, TL got mad at me and said something wussy about a 100000 character post limit, pfah. For that reason, sourcing of my statements are done as links. So, like I said before, I'm working under the theory that debears and Z-BosoN are either both town, or only one of them is scum. I think this because they both committed to attacking each other very early on in the game, even before it was obvious that kush was going to be lynched. They also did not stop doing this just because kush was getting lynched, which suggests to me that either both of them are convinced that it's important that people pay attention to their case, or that one of them is and the other one is just trying to defend himself. More importantly, if both of them were scum they would be drawing attention to themselves at the same time that their final teammate was getting torn to shreds, which I can not believe to be true. With that in mind I decided to look at their feud once again to see if there were any tells that one of them was more scummy than the other. First, the entire thing begins with Z-BosoN in my view completely misrepresenting what SDM said in order to throw a FoS on debears. This as some kind of response to debears initial suspicions of Z-BosoN found here. At this point I believe that was just Z-BosoN misreading SDM, and thus finding scumminess where there was none. But it leads to a lot of discussion and material for us to analyze, so that's all well and good, I'm afraid I might have misrepresented it at the time though, not taking the time to look at what happened properly in context. Debears then responds with this post where he says SDM's opinions on lurker policy was there for anyone to see a good 2 hours before Z-BosoN misrepresented him, and also that he thought Z-BosoN was being inconsistent himself(which he was and later admits to). Again, this is merely meant to illustrate that Z-BosoN's original case on debears was in fact weak. Debears should definitely not be considered scummy based on that alone. Then we have the following post where debears again very calmly and reasonably explains to Z-BosoN that he considers his case/FoS to be weak and OMGUS. I agree with that. So far, I'm finding myself exactly on the same side of the argument as I did then. Z-BosoN was clearly out of line in criticising debears. I don't think I'm entirely at fault for thinking he was "trying to shut him up" at around that time. This is also where I have joined the debate, making Z-BosoN reply to my own comments in between their feud, I think my original case has been analyzed to death though, so I won't mention it further. At this point both of them start to also focus on kush since this is around the time when DarthPunk had made his case against kush's behaviour and his slip. Z-BosoN had responded earlier to DP saying he isn't sold on it being a scum slip, but mostly just not liking the way kush was acting.(Source) Z-BosoN then posts his first major case against debears. In it, he attacks debears for perceived inconsistencies but looking at it closely, I find that most of the arguments Z-BosoN put forward are pretty weak. Mostly due to the fact that I found the posts that Z-BosoN are referencing in his case to be very reasonable and without any obvious scum motivation. Debears also addresses this case later on. Now the kush bandwagon is in full swing, both players ask kush to shape up at different stages, Z-BosoN initially, then debears when he gets back into the thread after a 5 hour gap. I don't know if this gap is significant as it did happen during debears' primetime. Which means he probably wasn't asleep but I'm unwilling to draw any conclusions at this time simply because I have no proof one way or the other. I can't find any other reason for their posting about kush at this stage other than the fact that at this point, kush was a highly uncontroversial target, most active players in the thread at this stage are all imploring kush to shape up if he is town and for good reason. Eventually, debears responds to Z-BosoN's case against him in the following post. In this post(it and Z-BosoN's eventual response are both massive, every time I read them I find out more things that are damning/exonerating about the two of them) he again actually makes a lot of sense to me, with the major thing I don't really buy being his 180 on Djodref. Especially since I don't really consider Djodref to have posted in a way that would suggest to me that he should be excused. In my mind all of the lurky players are still somewhat suspicious, and has been from the start, at the very best they are null reads, just dropping a line about coaches and then dropping the matter seems scummy to me. Also, I find the fact that debears has pretty much made no comments about anyone other than Z-BosoN and kush once the wagon was started. For all his talk about not tunnelling kush, he sure seems to be tunnelling pretty hard. Or at the very least, seems intent on defending himself more than anything else. His post with regards to the lurkers came only once Z-BosoN specifically asked him to do so. He did promise a case against me however, so I guess I'll start popping the popcorn. Finally I would like to address Z-BosoN's reply to debears final defense if I can call it that. (clicky) Here he addresses debears final post, a post which like I just pointed out says reasonable things. This all leads me to believe Z-BosoN is suffering from massive confirmation bias. He has for some reason decided that debears is scum a long time ago, and now every single argument debears makes is scummy to him. I'm inclined to think Z-BosoN is town because of this, confirmation bias isn't something scum would suffer from, since they don't need to believe anything, they know. It is however not very helpful, because even if debears is scum, him defending himself against what I consider to be unjustified criticism is hardly something he can be blamed for. I would however like to see him post more about other players than Z-BosoN, and hopefully he will have time to do so now since Z-BosoN has at least seemingly decided to let things rest for a while, which I think can only be good for us. So to end this, I would like to put a FoS on debears not based on Z-BosoN's case, but based on the following points, as hinted at above.
So to sum this up, I'm thinking that Z-BosoN is town, his play is just too emotional and full of confirmation bias to me to suggest anything else and I do not think that he would or even could fake that. Debears might be scum, but I don't think we have enough proof to say that he is scummy enough to lynch D2, not yet anyway. In my mind he still has a path to redemption and I think we should at least give him that possibility as I'm not convinced that they can't both be town. Given that, my town reads right now amount to DarthPunk for obvious reason, Z-BosoN as stated above and SDM(mostly a feel read right now, but he has made sense from what I've seen so far) and I'm leaning slightly scummy on debears. That being said, I will probably spend the next couple of days focusing on the players that I have not mentioned in this thread. Mostly because at this point, I consider the debears vs Z-BosoN case closed unless something earth shattering happens. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
I'll just end with the fact that I think we definitely need to focus on the people who have posted very little because I suspect there are scum to be found there. I'm just a little shocked by how little scumminess I'm reading so far but that probably just means that the people I've been focusing on aren't scum, but we'll see. I'll be checking in for another couple of hours on and off but nothing major before I sleep. | ||
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Sweden995 Posts
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I don't have time to go over your case against me tonight but I'm not particularly worried. Is there any part of it in particular that you'd like an answer on? If so I'll address that tomorrow, otherwise I'll be spending most of my day trying to figure out the lurkier players, especially now that at least corrosion, djodref and omniscient are actually posting(yay!). | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
First of all the following statement: Alsn's first post before the game. Everyone, if you do not know the depth of Alsn's focus and intelligence (or at least what it seems like to me) and stubborness, look at his posts from pregame and the obs qt from last game. If he was town, I would be sure that he would put his skills to work and actually attempt to be nked. Yes, please do. Especially the QT. Just ask SDM how brilliant I was in that /obs, we were all over the place in that QT. We kept making wild accusations left, right and center and they were mostly wrong. Not until day three or something did we have the slightest clue who to suspect, and then partly due to the fact that keirathi had quoted marv and spoiled it for us. This just makes me feel like he wants to suck up to me in order to make me drop my suspicions. I also think however that debears was quite successful as scum last game. I particularly went to consider his case against thrawn, which is very similar to the way he has been constructing cases in this game. Massive posts pointing out inconsistencies and errors, but not much in the way of explaining what's so scum motivated by that. On October 01 2012 05:37 corrosion wrote: There's some content in your post, but you've been making huge cases against several people without following up on them. As far as I can see, all you have achieved is to clutter up the thread. The other person that I've seen that clutters up the thread is Alsn. I've not read his last post yet, because it's tiring to read his posts. I've not read your case on him either. Right now I don't see any town motivation for your behavior. This post by corrosion actually seems quite apt and I realize that I've probably been overestimating how useful it is to try and explain myself down to the very least detail. It strikes me that while corrosion said it in a pretty blunt way that suggests he doesn't want to read what people say, my posts could definitely have been shorting and more to the point.' Conclusion There are other things I could point to in debears case, In general I get the feeling that he is doing the exact same thing to me that he did against Z-BosoN, making massive cases where if people read the entire thing, they're bound to find something they agree with. This feels like his meta from the final parts of NMMXVII, so I'm now convinced that debears is scum. ##Vote: debears | ||
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