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On September 09 2012 02:14 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 02:12 Toadesstern wrote:
I actually don't believe z-boson read the game I was talking about (LI). That shit of a game had about 130 pages of bullshit by the end of d2 if I remember correctly :p
No way someone would force himself into reading THAT. How does this make you feel about Z-boson? Insert you really think someone would do that meme.
not sure. I lie as town all the time about stuff like that because I feel like I should read something when someone gives me a link to an old game or mentions it, so I say I'll read it, hoping that I'll do it but in the end will never end up doing it because I'm way too lazy. Not to mention that if I'd do that with everyone (reading old stuff) in the game I'd be doing nothing but reading old games.
So I usually end up lying about stuff like that because I feel like I should do it although I know it's bad to lie like that.
Haven't played with him so no idea if he does that as well but I don't really take it as mafiatreat. Maybe he just overlooked the game really, really fast without actually reading into detail in which case I could see him saying what he said.
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I don't think grush is scum. As far as I can tell the case on him from toad started off as "grush is trying harder to look/be townie than he usually does, therefore he must be scum." The alternative explanation is that maybe he's just trying harder to look/be townie? I played/obsed the recent PTP game, where grush survived until almost the end - that game, trolly as it was, was the towniest grush has ever been.
I'm still not entirely sold on BKE, but I feel much better about him than about Grush.
The claim, I don't know about. It's a very easy claim for mafia to make, and we can't prove it false or true, especially since he'll be able to claim roleblocked. There's the fact that if he checked the person who was suicide bombed he should be dead, but I give zero weight to the argument that's been made by some people that his claim is too weird to be made by mafia. If the claim is fake, it's possible that he was the one who delivered the KP on BC - or one of the two if he was double stacked - and the claim is designed to be safe against trackers and real watchers.
Anyway, I don't think we should ignore the case on him just because he claimed a PR. I agree with whoever it was up above who said that if we do that, then scum can just always claim PRs and get free extra life by claiming to be roleblocked.
So I'm back to the original core of the case against him - his scummy shift in position on Mattchew before and after Palmar's post in the thread. Sure it's not 100% a sure thing, but I like that case better than the case on Grush, and so ##vote: broodkingexe
pre-edit Reading over Austin's post right above mine it looks like some decent arguments on z-boson as well - big lists, not following up on his own stuff, inconsistency, etc. Also someone to consider.
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Thankfully things are getting active in here again, but I wanted to discuss the BKE fake-claim a bit.
I think all of us agree that the likely order of events last night consisted of double-stacking one person, while suicide bombing the other (between BC and DrH). BKE's watcher claim suggests that it was BC who got double-stacked and BM24 who got suicide-bombed.
Now unless something about the Day2 post suggests otherwise, this seems highly unlikely. BC was much more of a confirmed town (after outing Mattchew) than DrH was. To the average reader here, BC would seem like much more of a target for blue actions (watcher, medic, etc.) during the night. Isn't it much more likely for mafia to have suicide-bombed BC? There would be a much higher chance of blue's visiting BC after he caught the first mafia. I find it so unlikely that DrH was suicide bombed (over BC), and this is why I'm doubting the BKE claim.
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On September 09 2012 02:10 austinmcc wrote:
Hey strongandbig, are you around? Would you give your updated thoughts on BKE/grush, and give Z-boson a read?
oh lol
i take a while to type
i'll read through z-boson's filter while I eat dinner
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On September 09 2012 02:19 DarthPunk wrote:
@ Austin Are you 100% opposed to the Grush lynch? Would you vote for him in order to consolidate away from BKE? I am 100% opposed to a Grush lynch right now.
(1) I don't think he's scummy.
(2) I think he's an easy mislynch for mafia to push, and I don't like that he immediately floated to the top.
(3) He'll be around. IF BKE was town, mafia was probably on him, at least some members. All yesterday, BKE was the lynch, ezpz. Then he claims watcher. Now, that plan is in the crapper because people are moving away. I swear there's a post from Ace somewhere saying that the worst thing that happen to you is scum is for just a random event to break up your plan. A vig shot on a player, a confirmable claim from your mislynch target, things that break up the flow of your plan and force confusion/panic, ruin your work. I can't find it now. But I'm pretty sure it exists, if you know where it is, bonus austinpoints. BKE's claim doesn't really do that. There's still plenty of time to scheme. BUT. BUT. If we also don't lynch Grush, that really throws things for a loop. If we can generate discussion, some new reads, watch reactions, that's a lot of info for town. It's almost like...not lynching Grush for info? How does everyone react, what are the other reads we get, etc. It changes mafia's target twice if they're both town (and we can actually find a scum or two to push). Their actions and responses are useful to us. Grush isn't pulling any strings here, you can lynch him later if you want to because you don't really have to worry about him being scum and influencing town, he doesn't take a leadership role.
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On September 09 2012 02:28 grush57 wrote:
So BKE or Z Boson?
care to answer my question?
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Hello all. Apparently, I'm the replacement for Miltokram. Ummm, yeah, thats about it right now. =)
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On September 09 2012 01:58 BroodKingEXE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 01:54 Gravan wrote:
I still want to hear BKE's best guess at what happened on N1, regardless any suspicion against him. Could I hold up on that? Im asking Palmar a question about N1.
I can wait. My vote has yet to be swayed by the subsequent posting - it will stay as it stands until you get to your implied post.
What rule did you break? What was that post about?
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On September 09 2012 02:29 Kreb wrote:
Hello all. Apparently, I'm the replacement for Miltokram. Ummm, yeah, thats about it right now. =) Welcome to hours before lynch in a cycle where we keep swapping targets and we've got a claim that might be fake and maybe another lynch target and a lot of other stuff going on!
Thanks for replacing, and sorry you hopped into this situation. I just replaced into a similar spot and it took me a couple days to get my bearings.
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On September 09 2012 02:28 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 02:19 DarthPunk wrote:
@ Austin Are you 100% opposed to the Grush lynch? Would you vote for him in order to consolidate away from BKE? I am 100% opposed to a Grush lynch right now. (1) I don't think he's scummy. (2) I think he's an easy mislynch for mafia to push, and I don't like that he immediately floated to the top. (3) He'll be around. IF BKE was town, mafia was probably on him, at least some members. All yesterday, BKE was the lynch, ezpz. Then he claims watcher. Now, that plan is in the crapper because people are moving away. I swear there's a post from Ace somewhere saying that the worst thing that happen to you is scum is for just a random event to break up your plan. A vig shot on a player, a confirmable claim from your mislynch target, things that break up the flow of your plan and force confusion/panic, ruin your work. I can't find it now. But I'm pretty sure it exists, if you know where it is, bonus austinpoints. BKE's claim doesn't really do that. There's still plenty of time to scheme. BUT. BUT. If we also don't lynch Grush, that really throws things for a loop. If we can generate discussion, some new reads, watch reactions, that's a lot of info for town. It's almost like...not lynching Grush for info? How does everyone react, what are the other reads we get, etc. It changes mafia's target twice if they're both town (and we can actually find a scum or two to push). Their actions and responses are useful to us. Grush isn't pulling any strings here, you can lynch him later if you want to because you don't really have to worry about him being scum and influencing town, he doesn't take a leadership role.
This is completely WIFOM. How can you say that the reason we don't lynch grush is because he's not in a town leadership role when BKE has much less towncred than him?
Furthermore, I don't get what the first half of your post talking about a random event is supposed to refer to. Can you explain?
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On September 09 2012 02:30 Gravan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 01:58 BroodKingEXE wrote:On September 09 2012 01:54 Gravan wrote:
I still want to hear BKE's best guess at what happened on N1, regardless any suspicion against him. Could I hold up on that? Im asking Palmar a question about N1. I can wait. My vote has yet to be swayed by the subsequent posting - it will stay as it stands until you get to your implied post. What rule did you break? What was that post about?
=\ You quoted it...No public announcements of asking mods questions allowed
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On September 09 2012 02:29 DarthPunk wrote: care to answer my question?
Sigh, I guess BKE is scum, fakeclaiming and just idk man.
Plus if we lynch BKE and he flips scum we'll get a lot of info from pushing me the easy lynch.
##Unvote
##Vote: BroodKingExe
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On September 09 2012 02:27 Hapahauli wrote:
Thankfully things are getting active in here again, but I wanted to discuss the BKE fake-claim a bit.
I think all of us agree that the likely order of events last night consisted of double-stacking one person, while suicide bombing the other (between BC and DrH). BKE's watcher claim suggests that it was BC who got double-stacked and BM24 who got suicide-bombed.
Now unless something about the Day2 post suggests otherwise, this seems highly unlikely. BC was much more of a confirmed town (after outing Mattchew) than DrH was. To the average reader here, BC would seem like much more of a target for blue actions (watcher, medic, etc.) during the night. Isn't it much more likely for mafia to have suicide-bombed BC? There would be a much higher chance of blue's visiting BC after he caught the first mafia. I find it so unlikely that DrH was suicide bombed (over BC), and this is why I'm doubting the BKE claim.
This is irrelevant and not evidence. Regardless of your own opinion, mafia could have Bombed DrH and NK BC. It is possible. and thus BKE's claim is possible. Your preconceptions on what you would have done does not necessarily reflect what others did, and thus this in no way disproves BKE's claim.
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On September 09 2012 02:35 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 02:27 Hapahauli wrote:
Thankfully things are getting active in here again, but I wanted to discuss the BKE fake-claim a bit.
I think all of us agree that the likely order of events last night consisted of double-stacking one person, while suicide bombing the other (between BC and DrH). BKE's watcher claim suggests that it was BC who got double-stacked and BM24 who got suicide-bombed.
Now unless something about the Day2 post suggests otherwise, this seems highly unlikely. BC was much more of a confirmed town (after outing Mattchew) than DrH was. To the average reader here, BC would seem like much more of a target for blue actions (watcher, medic, etc.) during the night. Isn't it much more likely for mafia to have suicide-bombed BC? There would be a much higher chance of blue's visiting BC after he caught the first mafia. I find it so unlikely that DrH was suicide bombed (over BC), and this is why I'm doubting the BKE claim. This is irrelevant and not evidence. Regardless of your own opinion, mafia could have Bombed DrH and NK BC. It is possible. and thus BKE's claim is possible. Your preconceptions on what you would have done does not necessarily reflect what others did, and thus this in no way disproves BKE's claim.
I'm not disproving anything - I'm saying it's highly unlikely given the dynamics of town Day 1.
I'm talking about likelihood here. If you disagree with this, tell me why instead of spouting this "irrelevant" nonsense.
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On September 09 2012 02:35 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 02:27 Hapahauli wrote:
Thankfully things are getting active in here again, but I wanted to discuss the BKE fake-claim a bit.
I think all of us agree that the likely order of events last night consisted of double-stacking one person, while suicide bombing the other (between BC and DrH). BKE's watcher claim suggests that it was BC who got double-stacked and BM24 who got suicide-bombed.
Now unless something about the Day2 post suggests otherwise, this seems highly unlikely. BC was much more of a confirmed town (after outing Mattchew) than DrH was. To the average reader here, BC would seem like much more of a target for blue actions (watcher, medic, etc.) during the night. Isn't it much more likely for mafia to have suicide-bombed BC? There would be a much higher chance of blue's visiting BC after he caught the first mafia. I find it so unlikely that DrH was suicide bombed (over BC), and this is why I'm doubting the BKE claim. This is irrelevant and not evidence. Regardless of your own opinion, mafia could have Bombed DrH and NK BC. It is possible. and thus BKE's claim is possible. Your preconceptions on what you would have done does not necessarily reflect what others did, and thus this in no way disproves BKE's claim.
Scum presumably used 1 KP and bombed.
2nd KP wasnt used? or you think the Mafia shot ottoxlol on our behalf?
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On September 09 2012 02:35 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 02:27 Hapahauli wrote:
Thankfully things are getting active in here again, but I wanted to discuss the BKE fake-claim a bit.
I think all of us agree that the likely order of events last night consisted of double-stacking one person, while suicide bombing the other (between BC and DrH). BKE's watcher claim suggests that it was BC who got double-stacked and BM24 who got suicide-bombed.
Now unless something about the Day2 post suggests otherwise, this seems highly unlikely. BC was much more of a confirmed town (after outing Mattchew) than DrH was. To the average reader here, BC would seem like much more of a target for blue actions (watcher, medic, etc.) during the night. Isn't it much more likely for mafia to have suicide-bombed BC? There would be a much higher chance of blue's visiting BC after he caught the first mafia. I find it so unlikely that DrH was suicide bombed (over BC), and this is why I'm doubting the BKE claim. This is irrelevant and not evidence. Regardless of your own opinion, mafia could have Bombed DrH and NK BC. It is possible. and thus BKE's claim is possible. Your preconceptions on what you would have done does not necessarily reflect what others did, and thus this in no way disproves BKE's claim.
OCKHAM'S RAZOR BITCH
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On September 09 2012 02:31 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 02:28 austinmcc wrote:On September 09 2012 02:19 DarthPunk wrote:
@ Austin Are you 100% opposed to the Grush lynch? Would you vote for him in order to consolidate away from BKE? I am 100% opposed to a Grush lynch right now. (1) I don't think he's scummy. (2) I think he's an easy mislynch for mafia to push, and I don't like that he immediately floated to the top. (3) He'll be around. IF BKE was town, mafia was probably on him, at least some members. All yesterday, BKE was the lynch, ezpz. Then he claims watcher. Now, that plan is in the crapper because people are moving away. I swear there's a post from Ace somewhere saying that the worst thing that happen to you is scum is for just a random event to break up your plan. A vig shot on a player, a confirmable claim from your mislynch target, things that break up the flow of your plan and force confusion/panic, ruin your work. I can't find it now. But I'm pretty sure it exists, if you know where it is, bonus austinpoints. BKE's claim doesn't really do that. There's still plenty of time to scheme. BUT. BUT. If we also don't lynch Grush, that really throws things for a loop. If we can generate discussion, some new reads, watch reactions, that's a lot of info for town. It's almost like...not lynching Grush for info? How does everyone react, what are the other reads we get, etc. It changes mafia's target twice if they're both town (and we can actually find a scum or two to push). Their actions and responses are useful to us. Grush isn't pulling any strings here, you can lynch him later if you want to because you don't really have to worry about him being scum and influencing town, he doesn't take a leadership role. This is completely WIFOM. How can you say that the reason we don't lynch grush is because he's not in a town leadership role when BKE has much less towncred than him? Furthermore, I don't get what the first half of your post talking about a random event is supposed to refer to. Can you explain? This isn't really a random event. But I swear that quote exists about just...things you can't expect messing with scum plans. A vigi shooting someone you needed. A DT check on someone you needed. Someone picking at something and unraveling your plot. I think that's the sort of stuff Ace was talking about (I will go look for this, once I'm down sifting through Z-boson harder, just preoccupied right now and mainly typing, rather than looking at thread).
But imagine...some things you see coming. X has a read on Y all game. You can mess with that. You can mess with claimed roles. You can shoot active and problematic people. You want to control the thread, control the lynches, whenever you need to (and maybe even when you don't). So you're more likely to...plan things? as scum. When are we bussing x, who are we going to push, how, which 3 are going to push x and who will push y instead, etc. Sudden events mess with those plans.
This...isn't quite the same. But the fact that we had a lynch on BKE, then he claims and sparks discussion and town swaps to looking more at Grush, then town starts talking about BKE v. Grush v. Other options (hopefully more than just Z-Boson anyone have anything?) throws a wrench into the works of any plans. They had a day where they were just sitting back to lynch BKE, or setting him up (if he's town). Then that got interfered with. No problem, Grush is here. We can push a lynch onto Grush. Then that is maybe being interfered with. That's what I'm hoping to do. It's not...random. I can't even be sure both are town. But the less...the less town moves predictably, the less scum can do to control it? I'm not sure this is exactly true, but I'm kind of playing around with it in my head. So not random events messing with scum, but just...sudden changes in targets, multiple times over a day, MAY shake out some information.
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On September 09 2012 02:34 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 02:29 DarthPunk wrote:On September 09 2012 02:28 grush57 wrote:
So BKE or Z Boson? care to answer my question? Sigh, I guess BKE is scum, fakeclaiming and just idk man. Plus if we lynch BKE and he flips scum we'll get a lot of info from pushing me the easy lynch. ##Unvote##Vote: BroodKingExe
You're still not answering DP's question.
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On September 09 2012 02:37 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 02:35 DarthPunk wrote:On September 09 2012 02:27 Hapahauli wrote:
Thankfully things are getting active in here again, but I wanted to discuss the BKE fake-claim a bit.
I think all of us agree that the likely order of events last night consisted of double-stacking one person, while suicide bombing the other (between BC and DrH). BKE's watcher claim suggests that it was BC who got double-stacked and BM24 who got suicide-bombed.
Now unless something about the Day2 post suggests otherwise, this seems highly unlikely. BC was much more of a confirmed town (after outing Mattchew) than DrH was. To the average reader here, BC would seem like much more of a target for blue actions (watcher, medic, etc.) during the night. Isn't it much more likely for mafia to have suicide-bombed BC? There would be a much higher chance of blue's visiting BC after he caught the first mafia. I find it so unlikely that DrH was suicide bombed (over BC), and this is why I'm doubting the BKE claim. This is irrelevant and not evidence. Regardless of your own opinion, mafia could have Bombed DrH and NK BC. It is possible. and thus BKE's claim is possible. Your preconceptions on what you would have done does not necessarily reflect what others did, and thus this in no way disproves BKE's claim. I'm not disproving anything - I'm saying it's highly unlikely given the dynamics of town Day 1. I'm talking about likelihood here. If you disagree with this, tell me why instead of spouting this "irrelevant" nonsense.
I thought the same thing but than again, what's the point of claiming he watched BM24?
If he's mafia he could as well just swapped it and made it the other way around. He could have easily said "sup dudes, watched BM24 yesterday and BC got suicide bombed" as frankly most people expected it that way.
What I'm taking from this is that he's telling the truth about who got suicide bombed either way.
If he's mafia he said that because he didn't even think about it the other way around and just claimed what really happened + a fake for himself. No need to lie about who got hit / suicide bombed. If anything that's just more chances to screw up somehow if someone tracked him or watched something else.
If he's town he said that because it really happened that way.
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EPT
