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On September 07 2012 10:14 Maverick32x wrote:
I don't even know what Dwarf Fortress Mafia is?? How is that relevant?
And yes- I acknowledge I defended Matt because I had no reason NOT to. He had just made a post and a couple people started to jump on him about it.
I honestly would not of voted him if Palmer didn't say that NN were not self-aware.
I'm not too concerned with 'looking better' but rather trying to scum hunt and win. I disagree, you DO need a reason to defend someone. If you didn´t have a very strong townread on him, then the natural thing to do is to wait and see if the case sticks. You defended him, that means you either thought he was a townie (please explain what made you think that), that you thought the case on him was without weight (even though there were nothing and noone supporting Matts claim that NNs are selfaware) or because you wanted him to live for other reasons (this is the alternative where both of you are scum...)
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Before I go to bed for the night:
BroodKingEXE
He has two very suspicious posts regarding two confirmed players: Mattchew and Ottoxlol.
A bit before Mattchew is scum-confirmed (right around when a few players start voting for Mattchew), Broodking posts this unbelievably wishy-washy opinion on Mattchew.
On September 04 2012 16:20 BroodKingEXE wrote:
About Mattchew (who I think is town):
Here's my breakdown of the situation : Matt's roleclaimed and given two reasons he claimed to avoid mislynch and/or draw a mafia shot. At first glance the roleclaim seemed like a great idea, but as I thought about it there were just too many holes. My initial thought was that it was a good idea and that could have been Matt's (based on the reasoning too). Another problem I find with lynching him is that what he has done (roleclaim) isn't verifiable until he is lynched. Right now its a coinflip and I haven't seen anything else that suggests he is scum. Fakeclaims aren't good basis for a lynch, they're not even able to be confirmed until the lynch, so I cant vote for him unless his posting sounds scummy.
Look at the logic - he first thinks its a great idea, then there are "too many holes."
He doesn't want to lynch him because his "roleclaim isn't verifiable until he is lynched" - the hell?
He said he's town originally, then says "its a coinflip"
Then he says "Fakeclaims aren't good basis for a lynch" and wants to wait until "mattchew sounds scummy". Again, the fakeclaim is the entire reason everyone voted for him.
But wait! Two pages after the fakeclaim (and before Mattchew posted anything in the interim):
On September 05 2012 00:12 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Unvote
##Vote: Mattchew
Wow.
After stating earlier that the fakeclaim wasn't enough to lynch Mattchew, he votes Mattchew for that very reasoning.
His viewpoints on Ottoxlol are the nail in the coffin:
Goes from top scumread:
No, his response was belivable based on posts he made after his sloosh interaction. Ottox has replaced him [ed note: Broodking's scumread on Toad due to the fact that he is pushing a "Matt is an assasin/townie scheme" instead of pushing his scum read toad.
Then proceeds to push cases against Miltonkram, Shadysands, and Gravan while Ottox is his top scumread:
Then says strange things about potentially townie Ottox while keeping a scumread on him.
filter
My 2 cents about the Ottox thing. I played with him in Area 53 and he's as stubborn as a mule. I could see him trying to derail a lynch from a town perspective. I just don't get why as town he wont push a lynch canidate (in all seriousness his isn't doing much to push toad or hapa). That's why Im keeping a scum read on him.
Then SOFT DEFENDS OTTOX when talking to DrH
On September 06 2012 16:03 BroodKingEXE wrote:It was later in the game from what I remember, just that he doesn't really listen (or ignores) others logic.
BroodKingEXE is scum!
##Vote BroodKingEXE
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I like this case the best out of what we have so far. Contradictions are a purely scum trait reflecting the desire to push an agenda by using whatever evidence supports it, rather than using the evidence to come to a conclusion. His actions completely play into scum agenda:
Times his Toad case right Mattchew starts getting suspected.
Defends Mattchew before the announcement.
Starts attacking Ottoxlol.
Flip flops and calls him possible town for no reason. "I can see him flip town" doesn't help us make the correct lynch, it only looks like he wants to get no blame for supporting a townie mislynch.
##Vote: BroodKingEXE
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On September 07 2012 10:11 Maverick32x wrote:
Okay, Obviously my read above on Forumite still stands- but I'm going to focus on DoYouHas for this next post.
1. He randomly decides that Bill Murray must die right away. No idea why this was important for him to post- and to be honest Bill Murray is suspicious in his own ways (not to de-rail, but a lot of one sentence responses, fluctuating 'lists' of scum etc)
2. So my sense is that this is a way to just accuse a peer early on, knowing that it won't stick.
3. And of course it doesn't, because he quickly /unvotes that so quickly that it doesn't even make sense why he would do it in the first place.
4. The majority of DoYouHas's posts involve meta game. 1a. Starting right at the start its his 'friend' who wanted him to vote, and people are playing as their 'meta' which he frequently refers to. 5. We're looking at a definite Matt lynch, and he knows it, and even states it... why wouldn't he get behind that vote?
6. He then jumps to Hopeless1der as his next target. He just appears far too sure of himself that Hopeless is voting scum for a townie- considering his entire case is built around it.
7. His defense involves his own meta!! This leads me to believe that he is very aware of the 'meta' in the game, and is actively trying to fit whatever he views as 'usual' for him when he is town.
So there you have it!! My top 2 reads currently.
Your given reasons for finding me scummy are terrible.
1. - I wanted to start the game with a vote, and who better than BM, someone L has told me is a great metalynch. It is what it is, but what it isn't is random.
1a. It saddens me a bit that you don't know who L is, but I guess that's to be expected more and more.
2. - So you think that both BM and I are scum, and that all of our interactions and mentions of each other up until this point have been distancing tactics? This is an association case I would like to see. Please back this up with more than 1 line.
3. - This looks like you were looking at my filter, not timestamps or thread activity. There are 6 hours and 9 pages of content between my opening post with the vote on BM and my switch over to Matt.
4. - A fair number of my posts are about either the BM vote or are talking to slOosh. The first is a metalynch vote, and if you don't see meta come up between slOosh and I then something is most certainly wrong. You will notice that when I switched my vote to Mattchew, meta was not a factor, the claim not making sense from a town POV was the focus. When I made my case on Hopeless, I wasn't using his meta, because I'm not familiar with it.
5. - Matt wasn't even a definite lynch when I voted him (before Palmar's post). I voted for Matt way before you seemed to deem him a "definite lynch", and with better reasoning. This is a complete misrepresentation.
6. - I am scummy because I had confidence in my case? what? My waiting for Matt to flip before writing the case somehow conveys that I was sure about Hopeless voting for scum(Matt) before I should have been? I was confident that Matt would flip scum, which is why I started looking at Hopeless with connection to him. I waited until the flip in order to be sure. If you want more depth into my thought process, read my response to Toad, as you already should have making this case.
7. - This isn't me being scummy, this is you being paranoid that because I'm aware of my own meta that I will use it to my advantage. Fine, a little paranoia is healthy in mafia, but this isn't a good reason to think I'm scum.
This case looks like it was made entirely by filter tunneling me. No regard for context, multiple statements that are incorrect or misrepresented, and accusatory statements that are ill-supported (see point 2. )
This is incredibly weak case making and it makes me wonder if Mav is actually scumhunting.
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Weak case =/= scummy.
Gravan you should be posting more thoughts so people can get a better read of you.
SnB, ShiaoPi, Shady Sands and Rewok are all people I had to double check the filter list because they lurk too much. You guys should be posting more as well.
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@DoYouHas-
Solid defense, and you're right- I was probably tunneling too hard on filters. I still think the reliance on 'Meta' is not a reliable way to contribute to THIS game...
@Forumite-
I guess we have different perspectives when it comes to scum hunting? The majority of players are town.. so wouldn't it be smarter to do some 'innocent until proven guilty'? As opposed to just blasting everyone because everyone else is doing it?
All this being said- I'm wondering if we should just lynch a lurker? I feel like allowing scum to lurk is a bad plan?
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On September 07 2012 13:12 Maverick32x wrote:
@DoYouHas-
Solid defense, and you're right- I was probably tunneling too hard on filters. I still think the reliance on 'Meta' is not a reliable way to contribute to THIS game...
@Forumite-
I guess we have different perspectives when it comes to scum hunting? The majority of players are town.. so wouldn't it be smarter to do some 'innocent until proven guilty'? As opposed to just blasting everyone because everyone else is doing it?
All this being said- I'm wondering if we should just lynch a lurker? I feel like allowing scum to lurk is a bad plan?
Howabout lynching BroodKingEXE - what do you think?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=54#1062
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I think your case has definite merit Hapa. I need to look into it myself before casting a vote. That means tomorrow, because I am done reading this game for tonight.
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id love to lynch maverick or hapahauli
why are people voting BKE?
can i get a summary of the case?
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Hapahauli's link doesn't count = 13 lines of rubbish he linked ON THE SAME PAGE .
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If Doyouhas is town we don't lynch Hapahauli
If Doyouhas is scum we lynch Hapahauli
imo
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I'll be here for a few hours if anyone would like to discuss anything
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On September 07 2012 15:25 Bill Murray wrote:
If Doyouhas is town we don't lynch Hapahauli
If Doyouhas is scum we lynch Hapahauli
imo
Can you please explain how Doyouhas and Hapa can be linked?
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On September 07 2012 17:12 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 15:25 Bill Murray wrote:
If Doyouhas is town we don't lynch Hapahauli
If Doyouhas is scum we lynch Hapahauli
imo Can you please explain how Doyouhas and Hapa can be linked?
Jesus shady what is up with you man. Your posting style is almost like reading another person. I just read through the ~5 pages since I left and as far as I know the only way Hapa and DYH can be link is this On September 07 2012 13:26 DoYouHas wrote:
I think your case has definite merit Hapa. I need to look into it myself before casting a vote. That means tomorrow, because I am done reading this game for tonight.
But you should just ignore him as that doesn't mean jack shit and sloosh says something similar on the same page with no mention from BM. Unless he wants to actually provide some sort of transparent explanation to his observations I will continue to largely ignore them as I have done thus far.
(by the way I read your essay on china. very impressive <3)
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I am also around at this time usually but the thread is dead. I am assuming from time zone differences.
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On September 07 2012 06:59 Toadesstern wrote:
strongandbig: That guy should be scared as shit about me but he isn't. Not at all. To be precise he's even pretty buddy-ish with me. I think he knows I'm not mafia. Do not like.
[snip]
Ottox definitly is the best lynch if he survives. BKE & S+B are mentioned because I want people to check their filter as well. I'm not set on lynching them yet but they're the best candidates I've got besides the "usual" ones. I'd rather not have people just forget about them.
So why should I in particular be scared of you in particular? Is it because I should be quivering in fear of your particularly stellar scumplay? Cause something about the ridiculous way you died last game makes you seem a lot less scary, as irrational as that is.
Now, I'm not sure how you think I'm buddying you. Unless you mean the "we're the only ones in the thread" thing - I see game-related buddying like 'ooh your reads are right on yeah way to lead the town' as being a lot scummier than 'hey man sup in the thread at this european hour or whatever', but whatever.
I was actually just going to ignore this whole thing because there's really not much for me to say about it ("you're buddying me! No I'm not! Yes you are!" doesn't really help anything), but it made me think a bit about you this game vs last game, and I wanted to ask something.
On August 22 2012 03:25 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 03:19 HiroPro wrote:On August 22 2012 03:13 Toadesstern wrote:On August 22 2012 03:06 HiroPro wrote:
Hi toad. Why is your vote on someone who's not going to be lynched today? Why have you not talked about any of the actual cases that have been brought up recently? Because I'm still undecided so far. I'm just don't really like lynching people I never played with before d1 in general so I don't talk about imallinson at all because I want to have more time to get a proper read on him because I don't know what's "normal" for him and what's not. I'm sure you'll find my opinion on every other guy that has been mentioned so far as I actually played with most of the people in this game before. Call a name and I'll copy & paste the quotes but I'm sure you could just search for it yourself. Am I posting too much so that I'm like gonzaw or are you not reading my posts? You haven't said anything about Dirkzor either. I know you've played with Zeph before, VE has brought a case. I guess I just ninja'ed you. Not much of an opinion on Dirkzor right now. He's one of the guys I'd rather have a look at day-2 or day-3. Same goes for Zeph. Last game I wanted to lynch him because I found a couple of posts that read like scumslips to me and he ended up flipping mafia. So pretty much the same as Dirkzor: Rather leave him alive and check out d2 or d3. If he's mafia he'll slip soon enough. I'm really in favor of lynching vets d1 in general. That's why you'll mostly find me comment on those people because I feel more comfortable judging them even with fewer amounts of posts.
This is from last game - this game, instead it's
On September 07 2012 03:58 Toadesstern wrote:
I really don't like the cases on forumite (or vets in general this game) as they're incredibly far-fetched, which is obvious considering the fact that we're still on d1/n1.
That being said I still (somewhat?) agree with the conclusion but I'll post shortly before deadline :p
What changed? And don't say your alignment, from how highly you talk of your own scum play I know you wouldn't be doing something as simple as coming down on different sides of a policy question as scum vs town.
Now in terms of your process of elimination thing - the obvious biggest problem with that is that it assumes you're town. You've done this before, like when we were playing in mtg mafia. You even actually came right out when the last vet was dead other than you and said "but why would I say that as scum, it's setting myself up to be lynched later." That argument worked that time, but it also taught me to watch you when you start talking about vet balance.
That said, I think forumite is looking scummier than you are atm. I still really don't like his "don't use meta on vets" comment, and I don't think that's been addressed since I brought it up last time
Yeah I think the same person is looking bad as you do even though you just accused me of buddying you, deal with it.
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I had a post about associative tells, but honestly, I'm not even going to bring another one up. I'll be waiting to push someone on hard evidence, like what I found (not saying it was my case.. but filtering him, it glared out at me... so i found it as well) on Mattchew.
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On September 07 2012 13:12 Maverick32x wrote:
@Forumite-
I guess we have different perspectives when it comes to scum hunting? The majority of players are town.. so wouldn't it be smarter to do some 'innocent until proven guilty'? As opposed to just blasting everyone because everyone else is doing it?
All this being said- I'm wondering if we should just lynch a lurker? I feel like allowing scum to lurk is a bad plan? I don´t think you are paranoid enough for this game. Everyone is a possible scum until they are confirmed or flip. If two players attack eachother, then you look at the conversation to get a feel if one of them are scummy, a case and a defence against that case is a source of information, but if you interfere in a way that shuts down the conversation, then that opportunity for information and analysis disappear.
As for lurker lynch, why don´t you want to lynch me? You called me scum after the daypost.
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Player list updated with flips, also I have duplicated the Important Posts section within that post, as I'm more likely to keep it up to date than Palmar ^_^
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On September 07 2012 14:48 Bill Murray wrote:
id love to lynch maverick or hapahauli
why are people voting BKE?
can i get a summary of the case?
BKE "Fail-Bussed" Mattchew
Read the bolded segment below (occurs right before Palmar confirms the Mattchew fakeclaim).
On September 04 2012 16:20 BroodKingEXE wrote:
About Mattchew (who I think is town):
Here's my breakdown of the situation : Matt's roleclaimed and given two reasons he claimed to avoid mislynch and/or draw a mafia shot. At first glance the roleclaim seemed like a great idea, but as I thought about it there were just too many holes. My initial thought was that it was a good idea and that could have been Matt's (based on the reasoning too). Another problem I find with lynching him is that what he has done (roleclaim) isn't verifiable until he is lynched. Right now its a coinflip and I haven't seen anything else that suggests he is scum. Fakeclaims aren't good basis for a lynch, they're not even able to be confirmed until the lynch, so I cant vote for him unless his posting sounds scummy.
BKE states that fake-claiming isn't enough to lynch Mattchew. Hell the entire post is wishy-washy for reasons I pointed out in the case earlier. It's a very scummy post overall, but the "fake-claiming" bit is the most important, because BKE turns around two pages later after the mod confirmation and does this:
On September 05 2012 00:12 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Unvote
##Vote: Mattchew
Wow.
Mattchew hadn't posted anything in the interim to, as BKE put it, "sound scummy." BKE went from not wanting to lynch Mattchew for a fake-claim, and then when everyone jumped on Mattchew, treated the fake-claim like a huge scum-slip.
That's all you need to know really. It's indefensible.
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EPT
