EPTPlease be present and send your opinion before the deadline!
Newbie Mini Mafia XXIV - Page 3
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Please be present and send your opinion before the deadline! | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Obvious and DP, please confirm... | ||
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Z-BosoN
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Or am I being unreasonable here... | ||
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Z-BosoN
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I tried... ##Vote YourHarry | ||
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Z-BosoN
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YourHarry is an excellent case. I just think right now SolarSail's was better. Just pray now. @DarthPunk I was going over other people's cases. Didn't think I'd find Solar to be a serious candidate. | ||
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Z-BosoN
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Z-BosoN
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Z-BosoN
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that was too godamn close lol <3 gk! | ||
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Z-BosoN
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I noticed it looked suspicious, me trying to change vote at the last minute, but I did so because I did quite a bit of thinking and thought I had enough reason as to why Solar Sail would be a better candidate then YourHarry. The timing really looks suspicious, because I was busy doing other things and my focus was not on Solar when it should have been. As soon as I decided that Solar was a better candidate, I tried doing a switch, when we still had around an hour to go. I have school in a couple of minutes, but when I get back, I'll explain in detail as to why I think Solar was a better candidate than YourHarry and still is a strong one. Also, what exactly is so incriminating me trying to vote-switch at the very end? Now that YH is guilty, it doesn't look nice, but how was I supposed to know? I had a hunch, had my reasons, and I followed them as best I could, because I honestly thought we were going to lose. | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I've read through the filters, and for now, this is my take on Solar Sail. SolarSail Solar's play can be categorized in three phases: phase 1) Defensive crybaby. This needn't much mention. However, it is important to note that he went under the radar for 5 days because nobody took him seriously, as everyone was so convinced that he was just a bad bad town. Also, he recently admitted to this: So I adopted a strategy to prevent that, which is to be so outrageous that I either get lynched immediately or established as pro-town for a long period of time. This is completely scummy in itself. phase 2) Sheepy Lurker. He doesn't make opinions for days on end, and the ones he does, it is always based on what soembody else said. And then suddenly admits to sheeping goodkarma. This is a very convenient move to avoid suspicion, granted your pro-town stance. Also, let us look at one of the only opinions he actually makes (and even so, based on goodkarma's suspicion against Ochrow/Obvious. It's just that this time he tries new arguments.: @Z-boson, Obvious I see we've ditched logic in favour of the impassioned rant. Obvious, that is the worst deliberate post in this thread. You still didn't respond to the thrawn case, or any ongoing case except yourself. No one is expecting you to defend Ochrow's every word, you're responding to a threat that doesn't exist and you're not even up for lynch so I can't call it desperation. You claimed town. Why would you even do that. You're actually blaming Ochrow ('maybe he banned himself'). However those bad posts form part of your record, so with the information you have you can do a LOT more than simply throw your hands up. You mentioned a QT to deny it. Everyone had given up on QT based speculation, why would you bring it back in? You continued to OMGUS attack goodkarma, when he has been asking only for the kind of info everyone needs from you as a replacement player. Firstly saying that we are being illogical, and then following it up with an attack on Obvious. Note his arguments. "He claimed town." That means nothing. "He mentioned a QT to deny it". Wrong, this is what he said: There's no QT to refer to, I'm all by my lonesome here and I can sort of see why maybe his ban could have been on purpose since this game is full of delusional people. "Everyone had given up on QT based speculation, why would you bring it back in?" Because it was one of the main arguments against him... And what does he mean with threat that doesn't exist? He was under fire from goodkarma from the start... It's clearly a failed attempt to make it appear like he is actually coming up with his own opinions, as gk was already on his tail for not making his own opinions. He then comes around making weird and suspicious comments after thrawn nk. He had very little to do with the lynch and is pretending like he is a bad player, should make his own opinions from now on and should not sheep. Then what does he do? Sheep!!, and blatantly doing so, a little too fast. This reminds me a lot of YourHarry's behavior, these inconsistencies. The fact of the matter is, he was still sheeping, up until night 3. And who is he sheeping? GK, the town leader. This, to me, is a clear attempt to rid himself of suspicion. He tries to assume the "don't take me seriously" stance, and that is EXTREMELY scummy. Saying your vote will be the same of another player without any second thoughts is completely anti-town. And of course, I didn't mention the anti-town comments he has been making all game, because DP and Obvious's posts against him already have this, posts in which I agree. I will use them in conjunction with this post to strengthen my stance against him. This is why I thought he was a better lynch than YH, and why I tried to switch at the end. This should be enough for a very strong scum tell. However: ... Now, of course, he is in phase 3 He has assumed a VERY defensive position as soon as YH was lynched: After you've finished going through the filters let me know if I've got to defend myself against anything, because tomorrow's gonna come down to me vs Obvious and I'd much rather be going through filters trying to find a third option, especially if Golbat somehow flips town and throws everything off. My play today was weak sheeping because I believed we had pretty much lost. I wasn't trying to put together a case of my own because it came down to whether goodkarma was right or not. Today I will be more active and more independent. No one had even said anything yet, and he assumes an exaggerated defensive stance. This sounds too much like a scum that is feeling cornered. What does he mean, by "if Golbat somehow flips town"? Is he expecting the nk to go on Golbat? Also, since I feel Golbat is most likely town, this could be a huge [u]scumslip He hasn't bothered making any real defenses of himself and just says that "DarthPunk" is oblivious to his post, when all he actually said was, put simply: 1) "My reads were based on my own independent D1 thoughts." WRONG. He himself admitted to be sheeping others, when he said he would stop from now on.[ 2) "All of this was of course useless information and their very activity in itself was a town tell. They were always there to respond and push cases and true mafia just cannot keep that up; this was more important than their small scumtells everyone jumped on." What the hell? No way their innocence was easy to determine. This is a really, really weak argument. 3) " I didn't even really check, which ends up giving the appearence of trying to fit in. I wasn't paying enough attention."" Also admitted not paying attention to the game. 4) " The reason I wasn't posting was that I felt I couldn't affect the outcome but it had the effect of making me look like I wasn't responding to criticism or posting my reads." Townies are not afraid to look suspicious, and focus on scumhunts. My read on him from his "explanation" is: He's telling us his exact mistakes as mafia, in hopes that we will value this new found sincerity and ignore him. In summary, he has been anti-town, has been MASSIVELY DEFENSIVE , and admitted to " trying to look unsuspicious" in his original behavior, admitted not paying attention to the game, lied about not sheeping, or at least contradicted himself later on, and admitted to being worried about looking suspicious. So far, I think he is our best lynch, as his behavior is crystal clear SCUM I have to run to the lab, I'll be back in 3 hours. Hope this was clear enough and let me know your thoughts.[/b] | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I have no logical arguments for why I think Golbat is town. He doesn't care about the game, doesn't show any interest in posting, and the few posts that he has that I can analyze I deem are pretty neutral. He could just as well be scum or town, so let me correct myself: I have a neutral read on him, but think he is town because I feel Solar is scum and made a scumslip. Obvious has been under the radar, but he seems incredibly suspicious to me as well. | ||
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Z-BosoN
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Ok, so it seems the MAIN thing that makes me scummy is my pressure to vote switch at the end. Let me get this straight. At least one mafia member bussed YH. That much is for certain. You think that I, fearing for my partner, would decide to wait until the last minute to unvote him and go for Solar. WHY IN THE WORLD did I not go for solar as soon as it was tied up? Why in the world did I wait for it to be 5 votes to 1 on Solar for me to start acting? Because going for Solar that early on would make me look suspicious? As if I wouldn't think that sticking my neck out to attempt a very risky Solar lynch 1 hour and a half before nightfall is not? Oh, and even better, you think that my plan, as scum, was to attack uncompromisingly my erratic and unpredictable partner all game long, bother making long and quoty posts on him, only to abruptly change my mind after I realize that all my work actually was gonna get him killed? This makes 0 sense to me. If I were scum and this was my plan, I would CERTAINLY join the Solar train as soon as it came out. It wouldn't give me 1/20th of the suspicion that my sticking my head out did (which, according to your theory, is generally what scums love to do), and would have a MUCH higher chance of working. But instead, you are naive and think that I was suddenly terrified of losing my partner in a already MYLO situation. Guys, don't be naive, this does not make the slightest of sense. The real scum is one who quietly voted for YourHarry without drawing up suspicion. Because guess what? One misslynch and the game still ends, we are not out of MYLO yet. Doing what I did, as scum, would seem like the stupidest shit anyone could do, it is completely unnecessary for a victory as scum right now. Do you HONESTLY think that is my brilliant plan? If you said yes, then wow, I don't know what to say, you must be very biased. If you said "that's what he wants us to think", then your MAIN argument against lynching someone who has been heavy on the analysis and reads on players all game long is purely WIFOM. Also, your strategy for fishing evidence that is not there is pretty horrible. "Z-BosoN, please make your reads!" THen you skim it, nitpick one meaningless quote I didn't give the slightest shit to when I was writing, because that was not even close to the main point I was making, AND that was explained later, and throw the rest of it down the toilet. How bout you go back and read my post, unbiased, pretending it was one of your town reads that made it, and tell me why you think solar is town after a HUGE STASH of HARD EVIDENCE has been thrown in your way. Also, please answer as logically and as precise as you can. I know your impulse is to go through this post and try to find something that "inequivocally" proves me scum and ignore the rest, but read it seriously and explain to me your EXACT reasoning as to why I'm most definitely scum. Point by point. | ||
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Z-BosoN
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Z-BosoN
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I tried to be as reasonable as possible, explaining my decisions as much as I could. I voted for Jhuyt early, because I heavily favored a policy lynch. I voted for thrawn due to the immense pile of suspicion his arguments made me. I chose him over YourHarry simply because I thought the accusations on thrawn were stronger than those on yourharry's. And the same thing for solar, I went for Solar simply because I read the cases against him and realized that he had a much better chance of being scum. If you want to target people based on votes, why not go for those who didn't bother explaining them? And, if you disagreed with my reasoning, why didn't you say so before the vote was actually made? @DarthPunk So, according to you, everyone should mindlessly base themselves on goodkarma? I don't think that's good for the town. What's good for the town is making discussions and reaching thought-out conclusions. At the end, if no compromise is made, THEN we make decisions based on gk. Am I wrong here? | ||
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Z-BosoN
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On August 24 2012 08:03 Solarsail wrote: You're correct, that would be biased deduction. But that's not what happened. The arguments of the two posts against you have been: Goodkarma: "Z-Boson's scummy behavior is related to the last minute vote switch request" Obvious: "The guy who has been laying into YH the entire game has a change of heart just before the deadline." Those aren't "A scum Boson would be doing X". Those are, "Boson's behaviour here and here is scummy". Please give town motivations for the listed behaviour. Offensive, now? Of course he would be, granted that suddenly he feels off the hook. One more obvious scum tell that you can choose to ignore or not. You did not do me the honor of answering my post against you, which was 10x bigger and with much more time and thought invested. A good idea would be to do so, so people won't think you just ignored them once they realize the amount of evidence there is there. I will, nonetheless, answer you. "Boson's behaviour here and here is scummy". Is this not saying "A scum boson would likely do this?" I don't see the difference. I already gave you my town motivations. You just choose not to see it. | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Please Follow GK town! The town purpose? Stimulate discussion. Force people to make their own reads. A blind band wagon will ultimately succeed based only on the choice of the leader's target... The town purpose is that the eggs choose what basket they should jump into, and not have one egg choose it for them. That way it is easier to prove that I'm innocent if I'm innocent, and harder to prove that if I'm scum. | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Stop saying "this is suspicious", and say why you think it is. Explain to me the difference. Again, I will, nonetheless, answer you. "Boson's behaviour here and here is scummy". Is this not saying "A scum boson would likely do this?" I don't see the difference. I already gave you my town motivations. You just choose not to see it. | ||
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Z-BosoN
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Well, most certainly one of us is scum, but as far as I know, we agreed to follow suit. I suggest we all unvote, discuss, and vote again, as we still have 40 minutes. If the scums don't follow suit and don't unvote, it will be clear who they are, they would certainly not risk it. I don't necessarily agree with this choice. YourHarry has a ton of shit, but he has a lot of pro-town posts. I read Obvious' case and DarthPunk's case on him, and I have to agree, he certainly looks scummy as hell. His play is even more ridiculous than YH. Then I read my case on YourHarry, and your case again. What obvious said made me retrospect, because the type of evidence YH is getting lynched for is almost identical the type of evidence that thrawn was, happenstance arguments. YES WE DO HAVE TIME. I propose this, all of us here now unvote, and if, at 8:50, not all of us are unvoted, we go ahead and vote for YH. By 8:55 all our votes are made, to the same person discussed. Essentially it is up to you, GK, because without you we won't be able to switch votes, and I strongly feel taht we should. Think about what has been said, and think quickly. Is YH the right choice?? ##Unvote I didn't have the time to justify myself. All I could say was what is quoted and: "this feels like thrawn all over again": However, I did justify it, later on. Do you find it wrong and lacky? But how are you so quick to talk the same thing, when you agreed with me: errr. this seemed to easy in retrospect. I expect a mislynch. anyway GG> too late now. Should have been here earlier. If you are town, then Sorry I guess. You "slept" exactly during the time I was trying to switch, agreed with me at the very end when it didn't matter, and now you are throwing the rocks? Also, stop inventing arguments. YourHarry just came last minute out of nowhere. I'm sure he would have been defending himself granted he was about to be lynched. The pressure was made by me and me alone, for a period of about an hour and a half. | ||
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Z-BosoN
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On August 24 2012 08:39 goodkarma wrote: I've addressed Z-Boson's case as best I can in the short time remaining. I currently still firmly believe the evidence is there that Z-Boson is scum. My comments are in red. And let me upfront explain this too, as I'm sure it will at some point be brought up, regarding YourHarry's Golbat vote day 3: YourHarry softdefended Golbat and only made his vote after I pressured him. What's more, he called it a "pressure vote," meaning he had little conviction behind it... Look at the interactions between YourHarry and Golbat, as well as how he behaves when actually called out for defending Golbat day 3, and I'm confident you'll agree Golbat's likely the second scum. Unfortunately, due to time constraints that's all the detail I can go into right now, but the evidence is there if you look for it. Thank you for taking the time to decently confront my claims, as I have requested. I will answer this properly, after dawn. Hopefully you wont die and I can properly explain myself. If you do die, then I hope the rest of the town can make proper arguments and not blindly follow DP... If for some reason I die, which I think is unlikely, I actually think DP is the third mafia. Please read my exchanges with him carefully. GL TOWN! | ||
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Z-BosoN
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Read through this carefully, it took a FUCKTON of time to write. Finally some cold hard evidence. I find it so weird though, that no one else is bothered by this. Perhaps there are so many sheep here that they just assume what they want and don't bother thinking or even reading. First of all, a history lesson. This is XXI all over again. Since many of you didn't read it, and probably won't, here is what happened: Hapahauli basically gained town confidence in a game full of sheep and won the game. No one ever FOSed him, no one ever suspected him, even with all the evidence raked up against him (specially that post regarding the breadcrumb that mafia missed). I feel like this is XXI all over again. DarthPunk basically gained town confidence, by having all this voice, all this confidence, and suddenly became immune to public gaze. LET'S NOT LET THIS HAPPEN IN THIS GAME I've been doing my homework and look at what I've come up on DarthPunk. He and goodkarma have been trading hugs ever since the beggining of the game + Show Spoiler + First off, look through these quotes from DarthPunk: Says gk is town, but if he is scum then he is a great player who needs to be applauded. I have a strong town read on Goodkarma, but even with him/her I am not sure. I can see GK being scum. and if so I both applaud you and say WTF?!?! to the rest of town for being so shit. Needlessly mentions his certainty of goodkarma: Goodkarma is my strongest town read. I see the points that you make in your case and I can see where you are coming from but I believe you to be on the wrong track. I find it incredible that your top scum read is one of the most proactive townies in the game. And then, another disgusting non-called for indication of how much he trusts goodkarma. That being said. I am going to fully commit to my town read on Goodkarma. And I will work with him In order to secure a scum lynch. Noting this, look what we find in his filter when I search for "goodkarma": I am still eagerly awaiting this writeup GK. I 100% agree with Goodkarmas post and it fits my reads completely. I am listening to your arguments but as GoodKarma stated they don't really exist aside from your Vig claim and a truckload of WIFOM. GK especially seems to have expressed very similar reads to my own, though for slightly different reasons. I was expecting either myself or goodkarma to get shot DarthPunk ignores what's convenient for him + Show Spoiler + Let's go ahead and look through his bullshit. He says this: Z-boson has appeared town like and active but has just sheeped cases and not been proactive in pushing them. Pretty much a neutral read. And this: I blame myself for being active and building the majority of the case on Thrawn along with Goodkarma Wait a minute. I BEGIN attacking thrawn, and CONTINUE doing so even after both of them go for different targets. I make long and elaborate posts, and he still makes it a point that the thrawn killing was only their doing. So I retort, of course, and READ CAREFULLY what he says: On August 22 2012 22:53 DarthPunk wrote: I am leaning towards Z-boson as the final scum as he has cast suspicion on you whilst also stating you are town. Your harry and Z-boson both tried to cast suspicion on you today. Your harry has not voted for solar sail who is his direct lynch opponent which does not fit in to his previous play. Z-boson has also Ignored solarsail since day one and was a bit too defensive when i did not cast him as townie. Suddenly me and Harry have become much more suspicious on his eyes because we became suspicious of goodkarma? Did he even bother responding to mine or YourHarry's posts? Also, note how he quotes my post and doesn't address it. It feels a lot more like an instant reaction , as if he read my post, didn't like it, immediately quoted it and made weak arguments, basically stating that I've . Of course, he does this without being afraid because he doesn't feel like he is a target. What's even more hilarious about this is his next argument: I haven't been attacking SolarSail. Seriously guys, go to his filter and look at how many times he's addressed SolarSail since August 15th. Ok, you probably found, once in august 17th, once in 18th, once in 19th, and, from 22nd forward, a TON. And, in these days (17th,18th,19th) he didn't attack SolarSail ONCE. So how is it that he can go ahead and say that I've been ignoring Solar ever since day 1, since he has been also doing the same thing? He can't. He's not worried about that. He thinks his word is now law and in his mind he doesn't need to bother with such details, and can go spreading them like wildfire. And WHEN was I a bit too defensive when you accused SolarSail of being town? I'm not even going to search for this, so please, enlighten me. Also, make sure and see if I did so without reason or without an explanation. He's dodgy with his responses and says: "this seems very suspicious" multiple times, without explaining, always making SURE that he is sheeping goodkarma. MAJOR scumslip by DarthPunk + Show Spoiler + On August 22 2012 22:47 DarthPunk wrote: Yes I think they are forced too at this point. I think that one of them is Bussing. Solarsail is scum and voting golbat. so I view him as town. I think obvious is town also as he was so quick to drop the Golbat lynch after looking into solar's filter. I think a scum obvious would have tried slightly harder to go for the easy mislynch. That leaves either Stutters or Z-boson as scum bussing YH. Guys, read their last conversation, before they both went to sleep. Doesn't it bring up a lot of red flags? WHY IN THE WORLD would scum feel forced to bus one of their own? If scum can get a misslynch, they win, that easily. If he feels that way, why didn't he bother explaining it?. Because he finds no reason to. He feels comfortable that he and goodkarma are the "untouchables" and can go around making people believe what he wants. And this, as mafia, is exactly what he is thinking right now. He feels they can't get a misslynch train going on Solar with someone obviously scummy such as YourHarry, so they just go with bussing their scum friend, YourHarry. Most likely, they will focus on Solar next, granted his easyness to target. He makes up arguments + Show Spoiler + 1) He made up the argument that I was quick to defend SolarSail, which is UNTRUE. 2) He invented that I didn't give reason as to why I chose SolarSail over him. 3) He stated that it was me and YourHarry who did the last minute push, when YH had nothing on it. 4) He AGREED WITH ALL THE BLUES CLAIMING. When he saw that this was a bad idea, he immediately retracted. Saying he was "emotionally compromised", when it was JHuyt who had just been killed, which is an actual help for us. What kind of crap is this, and why does it go unnoted? Goodkarma, do you know why he piggy-backed off you? Because you kept making incessant remarks on how you know him as a player, how good he is, how much you agree with him, etc: And from here on out, he jumped on you like a parasite. Wake up man, your lack of suspicion on him is only meta. The evidence is THERE. Look at what he has been doing!!! I noted this ever since you began to idolize him, since day 1 or 2. I also noted that he was roleblocked twice, and that must mean that your are a [blue]JailKeeper[blue]. I've suspected this for a long time, given your affection of him, and thus, I did not KILL YOU. Why would I not do that? So I could use that right now as an argument? Finally, laying out all the cards on the table, to assure you that I'M NOT SCUM, is that I AM A ROLEBLOCKER. On the first night I did not block anyone. On the second night I blocked YourHarry. The night kill happened anyway, so in my mind his chance of being mafia were a bit small, which is why I didn't vote for him. Breadcrumb from August 20 2012, 4:56. I will. Right before the deadIine even. Your case on Him, and DarthPunk's case on YourHarry. If I find either to be stronger than the one I have on you, I certainly will reconsider my vote. Hope this time you have read my post, and hope this clears some things up. I didn't capitalize the letter b, and deadline is written with a capital i instead of undercase L. To check this, just quote and use word check. On the third night, I left this last breadcrumb indicating that I would block Solar Sail, @August 24 2012 08:56: You say you don't even need to explain why it makes me look suspicious. I say you do. Okay, here's why last minute vote switching is heavily scum motivated. As scum if you drive a mislynch you win. If Solar's town, scum would love to get the vote switched to him. And your motive for last minute switching is pretty poor. You describe YourHarry as a "strong scum Read," yet you feel compelled to last minute switch your vote... Really? I have to explain this to you??? And if you can get just enough votes off YourHarry, with even one town on Solar you could have secured a lynch because of plurality rules. Taking advantage of a potentially afk townie and last minute switching, even would have been an option. There are so many ways scum could benefit from a last minute switch, and so few that town could (assuming you actually meant it when you said YourHarry was scum...) that this is a pretty ridiculous question. Ok, so it seems the MAIN thing that makes me scummy is my pressure to vote switch at the end. It's far from the main thing. There are several things I discuss in my case, including the timing of your FOS on me day 3 and YourHarry's FOS that makes most sense as a way to distance himself from you... Let me get this straight. At least one mafia member bussed YH. That much is for certain. You think that I, fearing for my partner, would decide to wait until the last minute to unvote him and go for Solar. WHY IN THE WORLD did I not go for solar as soon as it was tied up? Why in the world did I wait for it to be 5 votes to 1 on Solar for me to start acting? Because going for Solar that early on would make me look suspicious? As if I wouldn't think that sticking my neck out to attempt a very risky Solar lynch 1 hour and a half before nightfall is not? Okay so Briefly let's get the timeline straight: 1) I vote YourHarry, 2) You FOS me, 3) Stutters votes YourHarry, 4) you vote YourHarry... Scum could and honestly probably should have bused the exact way that you did. With the YourHarry lynch gathering momentum it was better for scum to jump on it early than to just take it easy and let it happen. You would have looked even more suspicious getting on the bandwaggon late. You tried defending YourHarry at first, of course, by trying to undermine my leadership position by putting suspicion on me with an FOS. But when that wouldn't work, you HAD to get behind YourHarry as damage control. ALL THE PIECES FIT... And as for the Solar wagon, if Solar had gained momentum and you were around I'm certain you would have used that as a reason to jump on it. But the fact of the matter was there was me, and there was DarthPunk as pretty established town. If you went against either of us, you would have been under heavy suspicion, so when three vote momentum was gained on SolarSail and DarthPunk switched sides before you got back, you missed your "window of opportunity." I changed your quote of my quote in two capital letters, and underlined solarsail. R B solarsail, bolded above. You can check this later on. As with a 1/2 of a chance, no kill occurred. Solar Sail IS SCUM, AS EXPECTED. This is 100% true!! Unless you used your jail powers to roleblock someone, instead of to save someone, then it is infallible, Solar IS SCUM. One last thing. Solar and Golbat can't both be town. If they were, when golbat came and voted on Solar sail, when town had 8 people, all the scum team would have gone to solar sail and won. That can only happen if neither of them are town. Now that we are out of MYLO, I STRONGLY STRONGLY suggest going after one or both of them. One is certainly scum. I don't think BOTH of them can actually be, it wouldn't make sense for Golbat to just go ahead and bus YourHarry. So, the other, I fear, must be DarthPunk, I dug up and found too much stuff on him. Try to read my accusations as unbiased as you can. I beg of you, let's not lose this game because you all were too blind to see it. If after ALL THIS, you STILL think I'm scum, then, well, I tried. | ||
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