|
@thrawn2112
On August 20 2012 04:56 thrawn2112 wrote:
Z-Boson, a good town player wouldn't dismiss my case against Jhuyt. Even if you think that I am for sure scum, ignoring any case is not pro-town.
Wait, did I dismiss it? I said:
Of course, NOW that you have a boulder on your shoulders, you suddenly start playing the pro-townie let's lynch lurkers role, because you can't find any other active townie to go ahead and try to lynch. As you have been doing, you completely IGNORED my reasoning as to why a Jhuyt lynch would have been best for town.
I didn't discuss it. I'll be honest, I haven't read it. Just as I haven't read as of yet YourHarry's, which as I skimmed through the pages, seems to be quite troubling. That is quite different from dismissing it.
I will most definitely read your case on him, you can be sure of that.
I think you greatly misrepresented how I've responded to people's cases against me. I've not responded to a small number of posts, but they were a few posts out of the many I've had to respond to. I've spent more than enough time responding to people's cases against me and I don't think most of the people that voted for me are likely to change their vote.
I consider myself to have one of the biggest cases against you. Yet you still have not bothered to respond to it in a satisfactory manner. On my first post against you, had a fairly innocuous point, that was mainly to be intended as a "heads up" so you could better defend yourself. Refer to my point "your lack of reading".
+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2012 10:46 Z-BosoN wrote:@thrawn2112However, I now have a strong suspicion against you. 1) MAIN ARGUMENT: Why ArchRun?+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2012 07:11 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 05:27 Ochrow wrote:My two cents on Shady: My initial inclination when I see somebody being as aggressive as he is, this coming only from live games not forum, is that they are scum. However, every single time that I have been in this sort of situation and gotten a scum vibe from somebody being overly aggressive I have been wrong. So for me that history has me thinking that that Shady is town, just an incredibly aggressive one. However at the same time I think that he may be a bit overly aggressive and reading too much into people's posts, as he has made two rather strong accusations against Solar and JHyut that I feel are more or less unfounded. On Solar: As I originally said I felt that his play was not at all pro-town but, assuming he is telling the truth about the acting and that he didn't just pull it out of his ass, he has really turned around and is very much giving off a townie feel. On YH: So far I haven't really been able to get much of a read on him. While he was posting one-liners at the beginning, as he said he was actually able to get his point across in them, granted that his point wasn't always a great one to get across (ie Oh I have a secret read but I'm not sharing it). But since his explanation, which to me seems to be entirely understandable, he too is giving off a town feel. As for any reads I have, in most of the games I've played there has been at least one scum that was just purely a lurker, and as such I get a bit of a scum feeling from Archrun. He has only three posts all only a few sentences, long enough to not be pointed out as one-liners but only just. I guess I also get suspicious of any first post that just focuses on O hai thar I'm a townie yay killing scum. While I know everybody is trying to prove themselves as town I just get bad feelings when the substance of somebody's post is: On August 15 2012 10:10 Archrun wrote:
As a Townee, I promote any policy that helps us catch scum, but we must back accusation up with evidence(which this policy should provided) and reason. On top of that in his three posts he doesn't get into what he thinks about who might be scum but is just theorizing or throwing out a soft defense. I may be totally off on here but until he posts a bit more or contributes something of substance I am going to throw out ##FoS ArchrunAs per Solar's question I hope this helps, and if there was any curiosity about the reasoning behind my general consensus post, it seemed like a lot of people were in more or less violent agreement over the Solar issue so I wanted to throw out my understanding of events in the hope that it might lead to shorter and/or fewer posts beating that dead horse. FOS ArchrunArchrun, you have made 3 posts so far and none of them have had anything directly to do with scumhunting. Can you tell us what you think about shady's claims concerning solar, myself, and newharry? You made an FOS on Archrun by saying that he only had made 3 posts and had no scumhunting. However, you completely ignored Golbat, who only has 2 posts with one-dimensional scumhunting claims, being that the FIRST thing he says is that you are the scummiest player, to which you respond with: Is this something I need to defend myself on? I am not sober right now so I don't think I could type a clear response till I wake up. Going to sleep now, I hope to wake up and see some more posts. And you don't mention it again. This seems to me to be a clear, 100% dodge. You give IRL excuses and forget about it, even hinting that you don't feel the need to answer it. You ignore Golbat not once, but twice. A townie thrawn would definitely bother defending himself to a direct attack such as that, and would try to policy-lynch both Golbat and ArchRun. However, you also didn't call JHyut, who also has 2 posts and even worse in quality than both the mentioned posters. Why mention only ArchRun and not Golbat, who called you out or JHyut? Either this is incredibly sloppy play, or you have a scum partner. If we assume the latter, then I can only think of: 1) You are trying to distract people from Golbat by making other accusations, and completely ignored JHyut. 2) You are trying to bus your partner ArchRun so as to draw away suspicion from yourself in case he comes up red. And, you completely ignored JHyut and Golbat. 3) You don't want to call out three people at once for whatever reason and chose someone other than your scum partner. I find this Highly Suspicious. You keep playing the new card, and adding newbie questions that will show other people that you are not very good at this game: + Show Spoiler +All snippets: seeing as this is my first mafia game, how much should i prepare? i'm already planning on reading as many guides as i can but should i read through completed mafia games as well?
from what i've read in the other games your post count is something everyone really pays attention to
how long do these generally take to start? in the rules where it says 'pms are not allowed in this game' does that mean we aren't allowed to send a tl pm to any other player? if so are there any other 'allowed' means of communication between 2 or more players outside of this thread? ok thanks. that's what i assumed was true but i just wanted to confirm it so i dont accidentally break any rules or miss out on a part of the game that i was assuming was not allowed. Does anyone have experience playing in a game where a serial killer was a possible role? If there did end up being a serial killer, how big a role did they play and how high would you rate the importance and achieveability of sniffing them out early? In other words, would it be a worthwhile use of the town's time and investigation to try to figure out who, if anyone, is the serial killer? I can see how it would be very important to find out who is SK early on, but I also can see how it might be way more difficult than figuring out who is mafia, and thus not a good use of time. One distinction between the serial killer and the mafia is that the mafia are in communication and will be working together while the serial killer is separated from both town and mafia. Any player who is suspected to be not of town affiliation could either be mafia or SK, so while in either case they are a good target for lynching, having knowledge of their actual role would be way more valuable than just an uninformed hit on a supposed non-town player.
If there isn't an SK, then this line of discussion is a complete waste of time and we would be doing the mafia's job for them, which is why I asked if anyone has experience in games with an SK so that we all can get a better idea of what the risk/reward anaylsis should be on determining whether or not and when to focus on a potential SK.
Concerning shady sand's post, this is my first game so I have no previous history to reference. I am not really worried, but am trying to learn from other people's experiences if there is any reason to worry. I thought I was pretty clear that I was undecided on the importance of SK, and that if SK is unimportant in D1 it's a complete waste of time to worry about it. My current opinion is that it is something to worry about, but not on D1. Therefore I'm not going to continue posting about it until something happens along the lines of way too many unexplained town deaths. Sorry for the bother, but could you describe what OMGUS means? It's one of the several expressions I see used in the mafia forums of which I have no idea what they mean. This by itself is basically meaningless, but granted that my suspicions in my main argument rely on you "forgetting (or pretending to) people", I can only think that your initial posts were paving the ground for you to not be taken seriously and not have such motives questioned. I've noticed that you have skipped on a few details due to not reading previous posts. a) First instance, from the OP: If there is any sort of issue, you are unsure about some mechanic, or you are just wondering if your devilish scheme is even allowed, feel free to PM me, or ask in-thread with green text. Don't feel shy; these games are meant to be a place to learn and be open. Yet you ask all your questions normally, so you didn't read this or you pretend you don't know this. b) Second instance, questioning Solar: On August 15 2012 11:09 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 10:55 Solarsail wrote:
However, we should always strive for clarity and activeness. From my readings, these are the two master traits we must have if we want to win as townies. This being said, I will strike with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy these virtues!
Hey Shady this guy is VERY SUSPICIOUS for saying exactly the same as me and I think you should get right on questioning him into the ground. What did you two say that was "exactly the same?" It was fairly clear what he meant, since he quoted the specific bolded part. c) Third instance, your latest discussion with me. Confusing YH with NH, heavily misinterpreting my quote saying that "I had a case", and then making another post once I had already retracted my inquiries on Ochrow (you might have been sniped, I don't know). With these arguments, I can conclude that either your play is very very sloppy, or you are trying to paint a picture of yourself as being completely oblivious to the gameplay of Mafia, so as to divert attention and giving a plausible explanation for these "slips" I mentioned. For now, I stay strongly opposed to having three extremely lurky players, and a fairly lurky one (Stutters695). I am inclined to dismiss you as just being sloppy, because my deepest concern is the very VERY high level of lurkyness in this town. Nevertheless, ##FoS thrawn2112
@Shady SandsWhy have you suddenly disappeared? Why haven't you answered my post against you?
We should start discussing our lynch candidates. I am inclined to lynch a lurker on day one. This will: 1) Give us a good chance of catching scum. During at least the last 3 newbie games, there was always a lurking scum or more. With 3 lurkers, we have a 1/3 chance of hitting the mark, instead of 1/4 (assuming that the lack of discussion in D1 will give us a random lynch) 2) Make the other lurkers be more active. 3) Give participial players more time to defend themselves. Is this agreeable?
And whoops, you did it again:
On August 19 2012 07:44 Z-BosoN wrote:@thrawn2112This part (which I quoted from goodkarma's case against you... if you want to even begin to defend yourself, at LEAST read the main accusations against you carefully...): Show nested quote +
As far as the combined case claiming that we are both scum and are working together goes it is based almost entirely off of the timing of our post and the fact that Thrawn copied what I said.
He said you copied what he said, when your post was simultaneous to his. Unless Ochrow, before 3:57, mentioned or hinted at your ideas, that statement is completely unjustified and untrue. How would you have copied him if there was nothing to copy from?
I've hinted at you again and again and again that I was not satisfied with how you were ignoring my posts against you, how poorly you were reading them, and how badly you were responding to them, if at all. It's ridiculous when you take over two hours analyzing someones play, then they answer "um, what exactly do you mean by this?" and don't respond again. You see how I'm responding you here? I'm taking every single comment you made and answering them. Why? Because I disagree with them.
These people are so convinced I'm scum that they just ignore most of what I say and twist the rest of it into evidence against me.
That's a poor excuse not to defend yourself. I am convinced you are scum, but I am willing to listen to your defense. But yea, this defense doesn't exist, the one against MY main posts. Hence, I will continue thinking you are scum.
And the quotes you referenced only look bad when you take them out of context like you've done; they were made days apart and the town atmosphere and conversations were very different.
So if one day you say "I agree with policy lynching. Let's kill them lurkers." and then the other day you say: "Shady Sands has damning evidence on him. Let's kill him.", I am taking it out of context? The only reason for this to happen is if Shady Sands indeed had some mind-boggling damning evidence against him.
But ok, you did say:
(...)I think shady should get the vote, because I'd rather vote for someone who seems scummy after posting a lot than someone who seems scummy but might actually be a town lurker.
So I won't nag too much on you there, even though I think your case against him was weak as shit.
Keep your vote on me if you want but for the sake of scumhunting could you read my case against jhuyt and tell me what you think?
l will. Right before the deadIine even. Your case on Him, and DarthPunk's case on YourHarry. If I find either to be stronger than the one I have on you, I certainly will reconsider my vote.
Hope this time you have read my post, and hope this clears some things up.
|
@goodkarma
Ok, just so I can see if I understand you correctly. You still find both thrawn and obvious scum (will say obvious from now on), but you find Obvious more scummy than thrawn, since thrawn is actually contributing and bothering to defend himself (at least against your arguments), you will go for Obvious?
|
On August 20 2012 06:17 thrawn2112 wrote:
Zobalt
Many of the accusations you made against me other people also made, and I responded to those. On the point of my reading abilities and me proclaiming newbie (which I admit is something I have not responded to until now) I want to point out that a lot of my newbie questions were things I posted in the thread before the game even started. And saying that I'm scum because I didn't (green /green) a question I asked before the game even started (which other people did as well) to me seems about the weakest reason you could use to call me scum. Having not ever played mafia before a lot of what was in the OP and guides didn't make sense because I had no experience of what context to apply the stuff I was reading, so just because I read a guide did not mean I could have understood everything I read.
IS THIS WHY I SAID YOU WERE SCUM???
What a pathetic fucking attempt.
In my last post, I clearly stated that it was an attempt to give you a head's up for you to play better.
Right now you are just trying to waste my time, because no, you didn't respond to my post, because you probably skimmed through it and never read it again. I'm not gonna further waste my time on you, because it is completely counter productive. It's like talking to a child. I give up.
|
Woooow
I simply can't process what YH is saying. His posting is utter garbage, his explanations make little sense...
This behavior is quite scummy and has been like this since day one.
Right now I tend to agree with DarthPunk, YH's posts about thrawn have been especially messed up.
I'm sticking with thrawn, because I'm pretty damn sure he's scum, I find it extremely hard to think he is vigi, and I agree with the YH + thrawn scumteam.
|
On August 20 2012 08:32 goodkarma wrote:
@YourHarry:
But still if you have any thoughts on Obvious I'd love to hear them.
@Z-Boson:
I've asked you before, but I'll ask you again.: Can you please share your current thoughts on the Obvious/Ochrow case.
What? I read your filter, where did you ask me?
Why are you so pushy that we say this?
To be honest, my main scumteam is:
1) thrawn
2) Yourharry
3)???
I haven't thought too much into the ??? but I have the following suspicions:
??? = Obvious, due to Ochrows suspicious play earlier on and general lurkiness
??? = You, I have yet to figure out if your "I am sure thrawn is scum" to "let's not vote on thrawn" has sufficient backing by thrawns posts.
??? = Someone else
I've been spending most of my time so far figuring out if I am not exaggerating on the thrawn vote, which I've already concluded I'm not, and also trying to get a read on YH, which has been hard because his posts are amazingly confusing.
|
Godamn it, I was hoping you wouldn't actually turn out vigi...
I seriously thought you were scum due to the way you were posting =/
GL in XXV 
|
All right guys, some debriefing should take place. I agree that we shouldn't back off during the night. It is crucial we get it right this time. Let's see what we have:
YourHarry
Extremely weird player. My main theory against him was that he was trying to do a lame bus on thrawn. Granted as thrawn was indeed vigi, this is not the case.
However, his posts and comments generally are inconsistent, lack explanations, and keep changing. His posts are a diarrhea of WIFOM that I've decided are only here to confuse us with its vagueness, lack of clarity, and lack of purpose. Observe:
I am having second thoughts about Thrawn. First thing that doesn't make sense if Thrawn is scum: If Thrawn is indeed scum then he left that "bread crumb" post so that he can use that as evidence to mislead the town that he is vigilante. But Thrawn denied this post as the "bread crumb" post, and in his initial claim, he never even referenced this post in the first place...
Mega power WIFOM.
Second thing that I am not sure about is that, claiming vigilante is so dangerous for scum. One weak point in this line of thinking is that Thrawn did ask the mod to confirm that there could be more than one vigilante. I think it is possible that scum Thrawn DID ask the moderator in private prior to asking publicly that there could be more than one vigilante.
What is this supposed to implicate? Useless garbage.
STILL, whether or not there could be two vigilante... a counter vigilante claim would definitely have made Thrawn look suspicious. Would it not? I am not sure scum would have taken this risk.
He keeps babbling, and doesn't make a point. How in anyway is this post helping town? And we keep going:
But I am scared to unvote, because I will be the next person to be lynched after Thrawn
What is this supposed to mean? Is he a scum that wants us to think this or is he a townie that wants us to think that he is thinking... oh wait, WIFOM. This statement means CRAP.
... and more ....
I am not super confident in my scum read. Upon my reading just now, I found Jhyut case's scummy. Sheeping Thrawn's case here, but Jhyut did not care whether I am town or scum - he wanted to lynch me. I thought he was something else, but I guess I was wrong again. HE is also lurking pretty hard, so he may turn out to be scum
Crappety crap crap CRAP. He is randomly throwing around suspicions and not committing to anything. This in no conceivable way helps town.
My case against Golbat and Darth was based on my scum read on Thrawn. Not sure anymore.
Scumslip? How does he suddenly know that thrawn is not scum? Oh, that's right, he decided thrawn isn't scum with his brilliant and well thought-out argument, quoted above.
I'm sure we can agree that his posts don't help the town and scream scum. Even though there was strong evidence that thrawn and YH were scum, due to the way they were playing it D1, I am still inclined to think he is scum. This requires much more thought, as we will have to be certain that we lynch a scum in the next day.
Jhuyt
He is a quiet and lurky player. He mentions possibilities, without compromise, and doesn't take a stance on anything.
The more I think of it the more I find that either Shady or Thrawn is scum. But since my basis of suspicion against Thrawn is basically gone I really can't vote for him. I think this post + Show Spoiler + coupled with Thrawn's reason to accuse Arch is enough for me too consider Shady as scum.
##Vote: Shady Sands
I have to go for the next couple of hours so I won't be here for the conclusion of the day, see ya later.
Bases himself off completely off of someone else's arguments, and announces he will have to leave. He then makes complains about how wishy-washy YourHarry is, says it is urgent that we lynch him, and starts to make shallow arguments on GK:
When I looked at the case GK made in this post I got the feeling that you might be scum, but I wasn't sure. When I couple that with your scumslip it makes more sense that he's right and therefore I think you're scum.
The benefit of the doubt line was one that I was considering to cut out of the post because it doesn't add anything and I'm pretty sure I misused the expression.
I should have said that while I do think you're scum I think that YH's behaviour is way scummier and so much more anti-town that a lynch on him is necessary so that we can have a clearer discussion.
But still considering YourHarry's wishy-washyness more scummy. Gets attacked by thrawn, who basically states the same things I'm saying right now, and is defended with weak and contentless posts. He simply doesn't take a solid stance on anyone (except maybe for YH). He's generally much more lurkier and gives off too few to work with.
Golbat
Beastly Lurker. Joined on the thrawn bandwagon and disappeared. We should have lynched him a long time ago. This makes me understand why lurker policy needs to be so strong. If he was a civilian before, then we would be down a lurking civilian who was not helping at all. Now, however, we cannot afford another misslynch, and have to be more careful. But since he has barely any posts, it will be very hard to determine for sure what he is.
goodkarma and DarthPunk
I wanted to make sure that I wasn't skipping any details on the non-obvious choices. I've noticed some weird behavior on GK, which I've already mentioned. Since I've already gone through thrawn's filter, I can understand where GK could have found some reason to back off of thrawn. I don't think he is scum, as I can't think of why a scum would go ahead and say I'M SURE HES GUILTY, to backing off entirely. Scum generally take hesitant postures that lack commitment and conviction.
I've read DarthPunk's filter carefully and wasn't able to detect anything too suspicious or compromising, as he has been making accusations and backing them up with well explained arguments.
Also, both him and goodkarma have been making tons of pro-town and meaningful accusations. If one of them is mafia, it is not in this round that we will be able to lynch them unless we can pick up on something not yet noted.
Stutters and Obvious to come. I'm sleepy and have to wake up early tomorrow. Please, be active, let me know what you think of this post and contribute your own ideas and suspicions as well.
|
EBWOP:
and SolarSail of course. I've been ignoring him ever since his childhood days.
|
@goodkarma
Well that was quick. Let me see if I understand. Now, in day 3, in a MYLO situation, you propose to.
On August 21 2012 09:16 goodkarma wrote:Okay then. We need to be active today, and I'm wasting no time in getting started: @Golbat:You have a lot of explaining to do for your lurking, so please start there. Also, if you would kindly explain this quote: Show nested quote +On August 18 2012 15:59 Golbat wrote:On August 18 2012 15:50 DarthPunk wrote:On August 18 2012 15:32 Golbat wrote:On August 18 2012 15:19 DarthPunk wrote:On August 18 2012 15:10 Golbat wrote:On August 18 2012 12:55 goodkarma wrote:
@YourHarry:
Any suggestions as to who this someone else is that we should lynch?
My first thoughts are either Orchrow or you.
You seem to be very interested in keeping thrawn alive as long as possible... I suggest you start making some meaningful suggestions as to who you feel looks scummier. And it would also be helpful if you commented on people's most recent cases against thrawn, Orchrow, and yourself instead of continuing to strive to keep Thrawn alive.
There are situations here where the vigi still shouldn't claim. Like what if there is an sk, but the vigi hasn't used his shot yet? A vigi counter claim here would be terrible, as he could wind up rb'ed by scum and NK'ed before he can do anything.
And if we wait, who's to say town doesn't get a successful medic save or rb? Or that scum or the sk (if he exists) doesn't just sit back and do nothing for one night? There's a few different ways that there could be an sk but fewer than two night kills.
Waiting achieves nothing. My read, and the read of several of us here, is that thrawn is scum. It's time for him to go. Read through the case points against him, and show us why you feel he might be town. It's more productive than your WIFOM defense of thrawn you're presenting now. I am in agreement that we should just lynch thrawn here. We seem to have caught a scum or even two, I think if thrawn flips scum then YH is almost certainly scum. You are lurking pretty hard buddy. I would also like to ask Ochrow, solarsail Z-Boson and Stutters to increase their contributions. I agree i'm lurking, but I feel that I have at least contributed well for my sparse filter. I made my case on thrawn, and cast my vote. When I see something worth discussing I mention it. I may not be living in the thread as hard as you, harry or thrawn, but at least I've contributed. What do you suggest I do to be less "lurky"? Make a shit case on someone in a misguided attempt to look active? Last game it got me lynched and cost town a vigi shot. I'll go over the thread again and see if anything catches my eye, but I don't really see a case I can make that hasn't already been made ATM. At the very least i'll prod some people in my next couple posts. Why so defensive? I understand that you got lynched for being over eager in XXII but your posting is markedly different than what I experienced there (although you were only alive for 24 hours so not much of a meta to read  ) my post was not a personal attack but rather a call to all lurkers to contribute something. Apologies. I didn't mean to come off as defensive, just that I'm not intentionally lurking, just not posting uselessly. in my last game I died before I could make a big contribution, and I just want to help catch a scum before I die this game. Now is the time to step it up I guess. I've already explained what I felt was scummy about this, but in case you need a reminder: You seem more interested in staying alive right now than in actually scumhunting. "Not posting uselessly" is not an excuse for not posting at all. Even one one-line post explaining your absence would have been useful at this point, and you wouldn't even contribute that. You argue to not be lurking intentionally, but I would argue that yes, lurking for 48 hours is rather intentional. There's no way that you haven't thought up anything worthwhile in that time unless if between then and now you have forgotten altogether about this thread. And why would you do that if you want to "make a big contribution" that leads to the lynch of a scum? One more question: Why did you tunnel Thrawn so hard? ##Vote: Golbat
Wait a minute. This is do or die for the town. You plan to consolidate your vote on someone who barely has any information on him and has been a hardcore lurker since day one? Because he tunneled thrawn, as if you didn't? Oh wait, that's right, you had a very sudden change of heart. But then, you go on and say that:
(...)And finally there's the final vote count for day 2. I currently believe the Thrawn mislynch had heavy scum support. One reason scum would have for getting behind a candidate would be if one of their own also had strong support. If you look at the votes, and see where those who have established themselves as town have voted, I'm sure you'll agree the YourHarry lynch had some reputable town support behind it. And all of the current scum suspects are on the Thrawn mislynch.:
Well that's a very convenient argument, to go along with your name not being on that list. Drop in the bomb, wait for people to sheep you, then escape, no compromises.
It's also ironic you didn't think of it before, when everybody wanted Shady Sands dead, who was the top poster at the moment. I'll go ahead and post the day one votes.
ShadySands (5): SolarSail, thrawn2112, SolarSail, mkfuba07, Jhuyt, YourHarry, YourHarry
SolarSail (0): YourHarry
thrawn2112 (4): YourHarry ShadySands, Archrun, DarthPunk, Golbat
goodkarma (0): YourHarry
Jhuyt (2): goodkarma, Z-Boson
Archrun (2): Ochrow, Stutters695. Ochrow, YourHarry
Same argument you used. Look at that, everyone on ShadySands list must be quite the suspects of being scum. Because, "One reason scum would have for getting behind a candidate would be if one of their own also had strong support."
Except that he wasn't scum was he? This is because this argument is very weak. It only becomes suspicious when one target has a LOT of scumminess on him and a LOT of posts against him while the other looks so innocent and barely has anything substatial on him. This is not the case, because thrawn had a huge wall of text against him, not only the one you posted, but also the one that I did as well. DP also thought he was scum, and I will agree that the case against thrawn was fairly powerful.
DAY ONE should have been the time we should have lynched lurkers. DAY TWO, maybe. Not day 3, with a do or die scenario, against someone who, as Obvious pointed out, is clearly not giving a rat's ass about this game. This day will be the target with the greatest case against him.
I really don't like how quick it was for you to vote on golbat, and how quick some people seemed to sheep you.
Regarding YourHarry, you went from him possibly being your third suspect to him being your main suspect with this post:
On August 21 2012 17:59 goodkarma wrote:
Regarding YourHarry:
Sometimes the most obvious scum is the hardest to spot. YourHarry has a "meta" for sporadic and unpredictable play. But however strange, or different, or unpredictable his play is, if you were to look at the motivation behind his play, you can determine his alignment. With YourHarry, actions speak louder than words:
-First, YourHarry is fond of withholding information from us. YourHarry starts the game by making a weak WIFOM case on me, claiming if I'm not a mason I'm scum. He withholds his read on me for a long time until pressured to provide it, and while here maybe you could argue he had some justification, this is a recurring theme. Over and over again he's done this. With this "mason case," with vote swapping history, with providing reads on certain people (most recently, Golbat). This behavior is clearly anti-town. Obviously withholding information would be advantageous for scum as it could make it harder for others to get a good read on him. Could a townie also do this? Maybe, but this is just the tip of the iceberg.
-YourHarry is a fan of last-minute vote swapping. He has now twice last minute switched his vote to secure the mislynch of the top candidate. This behavior simply can't be ignored anymore. There is clear scum motivation here.
-The use of WIFOM first, actual use of reasoning when pressured later. He already did that today with Golbat. He started today with soft defending him, and then decides he will actually "read his filter." I'll say that again: only after defending Golbat with WIFOM does he decide it's a good idea to read his filter. Then, finally, he decides to actually present a case which is in fact against Golbat. In other words, he's demonstrated a lack of interest in actually contributing meaningfully to scumhunting.
-On top of this, today he has focused a large degree of effort on getting people to role claim. If my theory on scum's motive for the night kills is to be believed, YourHarry is trying to draw important town roles out of hiding as easy scum targets.
There's loads of scum motivation to be seen behind YourHarry's actions, and there are several cases that have already been made against him. Yet somehow he seems to have avoided getting lynched. My biggest issue with lynching him, and why he hasn't been higher on my "scum reads," has been that his play is consistently bad, and it would be easy to mislynch a town YourHarry. But if you look at his actions, they fit a scum agenda.
And finally there's the final vote count for day 2. I currently believe the Thrawn mislynch had heavy scum support. One reason scum would have for getting behind a candidate would be if one of their own also had strong support. If you look at the votes, and see where those who have established themselves as town have voted, I'm sure you'll agree the YourHarry lynch had some reputable town support behind it. And all of the current scum suspects are on the Thrawn mislynch.:
Directly from the official end of day 2 post (minus the blue text):
thrawn2112, as VisceraEyes, vigilante, was lynched!
[spoiler=Final Vote Count]
Final Vote Count:
Thrawn2112 (5): DarthPunk, Golbat, Solarsail, goodkarma, YourHarry, Z-BosoN, Obvious.660, Solarsail, YourHarry
Obvious.660 (1): goodkarma, thrawn2112, Solarsail
YourHarry (3): DarthPunk, Jhuyt, Stutters695
goodkarma (0): Obvious.660
Jhuyt (1): thrawn2112, YourHarry
YourHarry, right now you're my top scum read.
##Unvote
##Vote: YourHarry
I encourage everyone to put together their reads, as there's still time for you to express your viewpoints before we consolidate our vote in the last 24 hours of the day. And obviously supporting or dissenting case points towards this case would be much appreciated.
Your arguments are nothing new, it's what has been stated on YourHarry since the beggining of time. The only thing new that you add is that he is suspiciously wanting everyone to roleclaim. But why do you focus on him, and blatantly ignore DarthPunk's same remark:
On August 21 2012 13:49 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 13:24 YourHarry wrote:
Good point on scums not having time to respond to your latest post. But there were common suspicions between Golbat and Jhyut that were posted hours before deadline:
Z-boson's suspect list went: me, Jhyut, Golbat
Darth's suspect list: Golbat, Jhyut, Solar
GK's suspect list: Golbat, Jhyut, Obvious
Maybe WIFOM. But to me, I still can't get my head around scum Golbat lynching town Jhyut, who seemed to be scum Golbat's only way out.
Regards to no lynching, the only caveat for choosing to lynch today rather than tomorrow is the medic save. But if we decide to go ahead with our lynch today, I think claiming today is a good idea. We NEED a scum lynch today. And everyone claiming would make that much easier.
Sorry I am kind of busy and am not following the thread right now. but I agree with a mass claim. we are at the stage of the game where we need as much info as possible because we cannot afford a mistake. I feel really out of my depth here, scum are either afk winning or playing really well.
The same guy in which you solemnly confided your trust in your "will":
(...)I have played with DarthPunk before, and I’ve seen his scum play. He has been 10 times more proactive than he was in that game about sharing scum reads and I am convinced he is legitimately searching for scum this time around. Add to that that he’s come independently to similar reads as myself, and I feel he is my strongest town read right now. So all of you get behind him as your leader and consolidate your vote under him. There is a small (note: slim) chance that he’s scum, but you’re going to have to live with that. To have a chance of winning town needs to consolidate its vote and this is the best way to do this. Come the next night, I leave it to Darthpunk to leave his successor in a will similar to this one should he also get NK’ed.
Also, you say these incredibly serious accusations:
(...)There's loads of scum motivation to be seen behind YourHarry's actions, and there are several cases that have already been made against him. Yet somehow he seems to have avoided getting lynched. My biggest issue with lynching him, and why he hasn't been higher on my "scum reads," has been that his play is consistently bad, and it would be easy to mislynch a town YourHarry. But if you look at his actions, they fit a scum agenda.
And you don't bother explaining what you mean. You just sheep around with the main case that has already been made, add something meaningless (if you want to give it meaning, please go ahead and attack DarthPunk as well), then hint at the most serious accusations you can possibly make and don't go ahead and explain what you mean.
I agree wholeheartedly that YourHarry is scum, you can go ahead and check that in my filter , but the way you write this and the arguments you use make me feel very suspicious that you may be scum as well. Now I see that the only reason I had lifted my suspicions of you were mainly WIFOM, but your latest actions have definitely raised my eyebrows. Right now is the easiest time for a scum to slip, because any small mistake now will not slip by so easily.
One more thing, you say that the night kills were not discussed in detail. Read my filter, if you will. Actually this night's night kills is what is giving me additional ammo on YH. That soon to come.
##FoS goodkarma
|
@DarthPunk
Wait, what???
On August 21 2012 17:42 DarthPunk wrote:
Golbat did not post during the night cycle. and his last post was 2 days ago. will golbat be modkilled or replaced?
To be honest I am feeling pretty demoralised about this entire situation. This game is incredibly difficult with the amount of lurking/ inactivity that has gone on. Not to mention losing 5 townies in the first 2 cycles. I am not sure if lurkers are even the right place to look at this point.
I am going to sound out my thoughts on the page and be transparent as possible. At this point denying information to the mafia is less important than revealing Information to the last 5 townies. I know you guys are reading this I just wish I knew who you were.
I have a strong town read on Goodkarma, but even with him/her I am not sure. I can see GK being scum. and if so I both applaud you and say WTF?!?! to the rest of town for being so shit.
Z-boson has appeared town like and active but has just sheeped cases and not been proactive in pushing them. Pretty much a neutral read.
Your Harry has been mental all game. Impossible to make out his motivations he is bad town (which is his meta) but this allows him to hide beneath this if he actually was scum. I read through XXI and I thought he was scum in that game. I was wrong, but this at least gives me something to think on.
Everyone was pushing the Obvious/ Your Harry/ Thrawn train. Too easy. Something was wrong. I had a lingering doubt in the back of my mind but I did not argue against the Thrawn lynch at all because he was so scummy in my eyes.
At this point I have no clear reads and anyone could be scum which doesn't help at all.
Like you said yourself, please read through the filters. After my heavy attack on thrawn, actually being the first one to put up a formal and well explained case against him (with the archrun bit), and, as far as I recall, doing the same with YourHarry? Explaining while ShadySands shouldn't be regarded with THAT much suspicion and why Jhuyt should have deserved the day one lynch? After sticking with thrawn after you and goodkarma pointed your pitchforks at different directions? After I continued my case against YH even after you, for some reason, ignored all the "scumslips" and "hinting at external information" against YH once thrawn was innocent?
And ALL of this after me taking hours reading everything and trying to make my posts as reasonable as possible, giving a detailed explanation regarding all of my decisions? You will say that I am sheeping?
That's insulting. Please do like you said you would and read everyone's filters. I will do the same on the remaining people I have not yet attacked.
Guys, we have to read and reread and read yet again EVERYTHING. The more we read, the less we have to guess and the better we can communicate with each other to find these scums
That goes to everybody else, because right now it's only half the people discussing the most important read we have to make. This will basically guarantee our loss if there is not more contribution...
|
@Stutters
He has been fishing roles all game? I don't remember this, can you please find where? The only thing I can recall is him interpreting a dubious thrawn quote to say why he thinks thrawn is blue.
You basically said what's been said all game. YH uses WIFOM, is inconsistent, keeps changing his mind without specifying why. This to me is very scummy, as I've made clear for quite some time. But I will one-up this argument, I think I found something that, in my opinion will give a strong case against him.
Case against YourHarry
I will not go over again how stupid and confusing and useless his posting is, how that looks scummy, etc.
Ladies and gentlemen, the first thing YH says:
I am not sure which meta I will choose this game .
I am not sure which meta I will choose this game .
I am not sure which meta I will choose this game .
He clearly indicated that he wants to follow a certain meta. Apparently, he has already decided which one it is. He is thriving on confusion. Look at some of his quotes from previous games:
+ Show Spoiler +Release, I am not Grush.
I didn't particularly find lazer monkey's post scummy. This is a newbie game. He is simply providing some guidelines on what townies should avoid - since (I assume) that his previous games have been tainted by vanilla towns claiming power roles.
BTW, I am not OMGUSing Jingle. I just find it difficult to understand why he finds me scummy, since I think I explained myself and answered all of his questions. When someone is focusing his accusation on a player based on reasonable evidence, that someone could be town or scum.
But when someone is stubborn about his accusation on a player, even after the accused player adequately explained himself, I think that someone is likely to be scum. Maybe he is not satisfied with my answers. If so, Jingle, please tell me what you still think I am scum.
Here, someone may question whether my initial vote against Hopeless also makes me scummy for above reason. But as I explained, I don't particularly find him scummy and my initial attempt to incite responses from him and others did partially succeed - mostly in the forms of accusations toward me.
##Unvote
##Vote Jingle Release:
I maintain that it was not an OMGUS battle, at least from my perspective. I had valid reason, at least from what little was available at the time, to suspect Jingle. And if Jingle is scum, my quick reconciliation is not necessarily scummy. At best, it's WIFOM. One can argue that scums would be hesitant to dismiss each other's scuminess, in fear that 1) obvious buddying may make both of them suspicious, exactly how you are suspecting both of us 2) other's scum flip will incriminate them.
Either way, my actions on end of day 1 to place the one of the deciding votes on Hopeless (especially when I previously expressed my opinion that I didn't think hopeless was particularly scummy, I could have easily justified my vote against someone else) and my willingness to vote against Jingle now should make me unlikely to be scum.
Also, in regards to miller providing a difficulty for town victory: miller counters mafia role cop and detective is soft countered by miller. Mafia role cop is gone and detective is still alive. So, miller's value to town is at extreme minimum. Of course, if detective was nonexistant, miller would be as good as vanilla townie. The reason why medic shouldn't claim is obvious. Night2, the scum would roleblock medic and nightkill the detective. Medic role claiming does not allow us to gather any additional information on alignment of other players. However, this means that we must come up with a consensus on who we want to lynch way prior to the deadline so that medic does have a chance to roleclaim if somehow he gets picked to be lynched.
The reason for power role claiming immediately if they received the positive result is also evident. This is because what we will do today would be clearly decided: lynch whoever received the positive result. This also allows medic to anonymously protect the powerrole who got the positive result.
The reason for claiming in order is because we don't want two power roles to reveal their identity unless it gives us additional information. This prevents second power role role claiming just in case they targeted the same player at night. I think detective claiming first makes sense, because it is a more important role - so this allows medic to protect him at night.
This is some quotes from his previous game as townie. Notice the difference? He still throws information around a bit, but notice how it is toned down and how much more reasonable he seems.
One of the first things I have said in this game is that analyzing meta is weak and doesn't constitute arguments. However, YourHarry has been constantly playing the meta game, and even said so himself in the beggining of the game. He has decided he wants to be as confusing as possible, as random, as wishy-washy as he can.
Another thing that I noticed is generally not done is analyzing the nk's. Oh, Jhuyt just died, but he was such a strong scum suspect. O well, WIFOM, scum wants us to think that blah blah blah. Not in YourHarry's case. The only consistent thing he's done is be confusing. I'm sure we can all agree with that.
I raise now two points:
1) Why would this be the meta to go for a town YourHarry? Isn't it weird how much better his play was as townie in past games? Why would town Harry want to be as confusing as possible?
2) Jhuyt nk was confusing as hell. This entirely fits YH's profile this game. I cannot for the life of me come up with a better reason to kill JHuyt other than just try to confuse town. Since YH right now is confusion in person, this raises an uncanny coincidence.
But Z-BosoN! 2) is WIFOM and analyzing meta is weak!
Well, imaginary doubting friend, I don't think that this applies here. YH is strictly playing a meta game, and not ONCE did he abandon it. He's drowning in WIFOM, but I doubt that he would have considered this when deciding who a scum YH would want to kill, because up until now, all we've done is analyze the garbage he jams on his keyboard, but not the overall picture. Let's stop wasting time trying to think what a scum Harry would do, and think more about how a scum Harry would act.
So there it is folks, I think this makes a lot of sense, and should give you one more powerful reason as to why YH is SCUM!. Think about it and tell me what you guys think. I think this is the best option right now, I can't think of a stronger reason to lynch someone else.
##Vote YourHarry
|
On August 22 2012 09:55 DarthPunk wrote:
I have reconsidered and am now FIRMLY AGAINST a role claim. I am still reading filters and trying to find something. But I want everyone to look closely at those who have sheeped cases and not actually scum hunted whilst appearing to be pro town. I think that is where we can find scum.
Mind explaining why?
|
@Stutters
I was about ready to start my post when I read yours, so I mostly skimmed over it. I've read it though, and thank you for contributing. But my point about analyzing his intentions and such still stands, I still think it's useless. I don't think any of his posts have any intentions or any purpose at all other than just being random.
@Obvious
Well, he might just be not visiting this thread anymore, I dunno... whatever his reasons, he's insanely inactive and hopefully will just get modkilled...
|
As of SolarSail, I don't like his posts after the night kill. He says he is so bad, doesn't trust his judgments and would rather just sheep. Frustration seems as feigned as him in the beginning...says he has taken bad logic following others, and decides to... follow others.
|
At least YourHarry suddenly decided to act pro-town.
@goodkarma
Are you gonna bother defending my accusations against you since you are an "established townie"?
@DarthPunk
You cite a post you don't answer to. You say me attacking GK, an "established" townie is suspicious. Do you think my arguments are bad? Do you disagree with them?
You say I then established him as townie despite my arguments. This is untrue, this is not what the "FOS GoodKarma" at the end of my post means.
You raise some good points on your attack on Solar, but it is the first to come from you on him since day one, and yet you feel free to accuse me of not attacking him since day one?
Most important of all, why did you invent the argument "he was a bit too defensive on SolarSail when I didn't include him as townie."? If it is indeed true, can you please quote it, because I cannot find anything that remotely comes close to this in my filter.
Please, improve your arguments or at least explain them better. Just because you and gk are so sure of each other, doesn't mean that whatever you guys say is law and therefore doesn't demand explanations. This is a game of deception and observation, not feelings and trust.
Oh, speaking of trust, you also suddenly, again without explanations , decide YourHarry is a better choice than SolarSail in a span of 10 minutes. After your talk with GK. Is your main argument to this decision based on your 100% trust on him?
@Solar Sail
Dude, it doesn't bode well for you to explicitly say you are going to sheep the leader. Make your own conclusions. This is just an excuse for not reading, and it's a very lame one. You also didn't even bother to retort to DarthPunk's arguments.
This is very suspicious behavior. Read the filters of those you think are suspicious and make up your own damn mind
Also, one thing that I do agree is that you have been too much under the radar. Will start reading your filter and see what I think, because you certainly don't look too good.
|
On August 23 2012 05:06 goodkarma wrote:
@Z-Boson:
I’ve been pretty busy scum-hunting as of late, so I haven’t really had much extra time to spare focusing on your specific accusations. Honestly, I didn’t feel they were substantial enough to warrant much of a response. But I will briefly address your case directly.
Well, I only made them because I felt they were substantial, because if a non-town person assumes (like Hapa did in XXI), then it is pretty much over.
First you are upset about me looking at voting history. Voting history indeed can be fickle evidence, but if you were to closely read what I wrote, instead of just making a general assumption on a scum being the other major candidate in the case of a mislynch, I was also seeing where the people with “town reads” had cast their votes. Voting history alone from days one and two, as I’ve already mentioned, will not be a strong argument in this current game.
As far as Darthpunk’s “mass claim” support:
Yes, I did find this a bit suspicious but I didn’t really grill DarthPunk on it at the time. If you are to look at DarthPunk’s actions up to this point, they fit those of a town much better than they would those of a scum. This one action wasn’t enough for me to change my read on him. And DarthPunk has since explained why he did this, and while the explanation could be considered a little weak I still find it believable.
As for YourHarry, YourHarry brought this mass claim policy up out of nowhere, and then continuously pushes it. Only after it’s clear the idea won’t gain momentum does he go back on it as a “bad idea.” This is a very different circumstance.
Well, he brought it up, and DarthPunk agreed. Then it was clear that the idea would not gain momentum, and both disagreed. I honestly don't see much difference.
And as far as my case points, specifically:
My case was looking moreso at motive. Other cases about YourHarry have focused more on his anti-town tendencies, which I’ve also touched upon. But that his actions would serve a scum agenda well, and are inconsistent with what a town would conceivably do, was the focus of my case.
I disagree with you here. I highly doubt that he has any motive, due to his randomness. And my argument establishes that it's his tendencies that would be stronger at deciding he is scum. I don't think there is such a thing as a "random wishy-washy" good guy and a "random wishy-washy" bad guy. There is just "random wishy-washy", which to me is clearly scum-motivated.
Regarding Z-Boson:I don’t find you inherently suspicious for making case points against me as DarthPunk might. However, I do find the timing of your case highly suspicious. If you look at the timing, it would seem you are going out of your way to try to invalidate the + Show Spoiler + most established town. And this is during MYLO, when town needs to almost unanimously name their lynch candidate to have a chance at catching scum. The timing of your case could easily serve a scum agenda, and does make you suspicious.
We still had more than a day, and to me, you were acting very suspicious. The worst thing that could happen is you actually being scum during MYLO, which is why I was worried and didn't hesitate to FOS you. But I'll concede that at least for now, it's best to focus in who will be lynched, as a whole.
I don't find Stutters that suspicious, so right now, I'll focus on deciding whether we will go through with the YH lynch or if Solar and Obvious have stronger cases on them.
|
EWBOP: on the unanswered quote:
First you are upset about me looking at voting history. Voting history indeed can be fickle evidence, but if you were to closely read what I wrote, instead of just making a general assumption on a scum being the other major candidate in the case of a mislynch, I was also seeing where the people with “town reads” had cast their votes. Voting history alone from days one and two, as I’ve already mentioned, will not be a strong argument in this current game.
I am not upset by looking at your voting history. I'm upset that you used it as an argument to find scum. I agree entirely on the bolded part.
|
On August 23 2012 05:41 Obvious.660 wrote:
I think it's relevant to point out that Golbat, whom we probably shouldn't expect to show back up, has placed his vote on Solarsail. In the event that Golbat both (1) does not return, and (2) is town, doesn't that essentially mean town either rallies under Solarsail or goes along with the YH vote now that YH is at 4?
What are the implications that a YH vote was so easy? Do you guys have any thoughts about why the easiest guy to vote for (inconsistent behaviors, confusing meta) was the last guy we're voting for? I'm not saying that YH isn't scum. I came into this game with an open mind and an understanding that his play-style is very unique to him, so I didn't hold it against him at first, yet he's still difficult to get a solid read off of (to me) even taking his style into account. I guess I can defer to the wisdom of others when it comes to YH at this stage. I'm fine with either of the leading candidates. YH is a stronger option since it allays any need to decide what his musings allow us to infer and we're left with the more straightforward Solarsail to deal with later if he's still a candidate.
This is a pretty good point, actually. YH in a lot of ways resembled thrawn. Confusing answers, weird meta, weird decisions, and I felt as sure about him as I do on YH now. Solar also had some "problems" in the beginning of the game, but unlike YH, has never made any real attempt at being protown.
So right now we have a somewhat confusing sheepy player vs. a balls-out confusing random player. And we can't miss.
|
Well, let's see who is present. All of me, Obvious, you and Darthpunk are present. All of us still have one hour to switch. Are we sure we want to go through with YH? Emotions aside (I've been ranting against him and his posting all game, basically), the more I think about it, the more doubt I have. Especially considering how wishy-washy thrawn also was, and how much circumstantial evidence made him look guilty.
|
Well, most certainly one of us is scum, but as far as I know, we agreed to follow suit.
I suggest we all unvote, discuss, and vote again, as we still have 40 minutes. If the scums don't follow suit and don't unvote, it will be clear who they are, they would certainly not risk it.
I don't necessarily agree with this choice. YourHarry has a ton of shit, but he has a lot of pro-town posts. I read Obvious' case and DarthPunk's case on him, and I have to agree, he certainly looks scummy as hell. His play is even more ridiculous than YH.
Then I read my case on YourHarry, and your case again. What obvious said made me retrospect, because the type of evidence YH is getting lynched for is almost identical the type of evidence that thrawn was, happenstance arguments.
YES WE DO HAVE TIME.
I propose this, all of us here now unvote, and if, at 8:50, not all of us are unvoted, we go ahead and vote for YH. By 8:55 all our votes are made, to the same person discussed.
Essentially it is up to you, GK, because without you we won't be able to switch votes, and I strongly feel taht we should. Think about what has been said, and think quickly. Is YH the right choice??
##Unvote
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
