EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXIII - Page 24
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YourHarry
United States1152 Posts
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
When this game started, everyone was in this state of playful excitement that comes with a new game (at least from the 2-3 games that I've had the pleasure of seeing the beginnings of). Because of that, I didn't question this post where you call out Sideni: On August 09 2012 09:46 Lvdr wrote: D1 went well I think. We got a good amout of information that would have been useful later on. On that note, sideni is mafia because he doesn't fit his town meta!! I still don't see this as suspicious. I actually laughed at it when you posted, as it was very clearly a joke to me. You then say that you're sorry for the confusion, and that it's because you're drunk. I see no problems with this, as you haven't made any claims I view as serious. However, it continues: On August 09 2012 11:06 Lvdr wrote: Both hapa and yh are mafia or both are town? I admit that the thought crossed my mind that they were both mafia. I refrained from stating this because it has no support whatsoever, and would only make other players look into a null case. One person advocating for another person does not a scumteam make. On top of that, you don't support it in any way. No quotes, no explanation, just a leading question that might implant the idea into other people's heads. You also phrased it in such a way that it looks like you're simply implying they're part of a team. However, scum and town are the only two options. It's impossible for them to know that they're both town, so the only option is that they're both scum. On August 09 2012 12:45 Lvdr wrote: I wonder if drunkenness is a scumslip? In a mirror of your own accusation, Hapa "suspected" you of being town or mafia. He knows these are the only two options, and is pointing out how uninspired and unhelpful your previous post was. Your response is an uninspired and unhelpful excuse, one which you had already apologized for once before. A townie OR a scum who had accidentally blatantly spread confusion would make efforts to stop it, while you appear content to keep piling it on. Despite admittedly being inebriated and aware that your comments are causing confusion, you continue to post in the same manner. There is no town motivation that I can think of to do these things, while the scum motivation is clear. On August 09 2012 13:03 Lvdr wrote: More plausible than yh then? Here you passively reiterate your previous "case". In asking if Hapa thinks your actions are scummier than YH's, you are asking a question that you already know the answer to, and that answer supports your Hapa+YH scumteam case. Of course Hapa thinks you're more suspicious, he's essentially stated that already. He has suspicions of you, but hasn't mentioned suspicions of YH. Even if your case was serious, the result of this questioning wouldn't support it. Your first three posts seem neutral, but the fourth is at least bad play, and your last two seem full of not just neutral discussion promotion, nor bad play, but active scum motivation. I'd like to hear some explanation for all of this, hopefully when you're sober and hopefully in more than one ten words. Until then, I feel confident pointing my FoS at Lvdr. | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
You seem to have left out the spoiler where he states that he was kidding. Even the post itself reads like an obvious imitation of iamperfect to me. On August 09 2012 09:16 Hapahauli wrote: I surprisingly agree with this - if town Harry behaves scummy, and if scum Harry behaves scummy, we might be better of without him no? + Show Spoiler + I'm joking of course, but given how much thought YourHarry put into his scum play for the last two days, I have high expectations of him if he's town. | ||
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YourHarry
United States1152 Posts
On August 09 2012 14:22 Axero wrote: That doesn't mean Hapa is a townie. Scum know who eachother are, therefore Hapa could know your alignment and could be setting you up to get lynched. It's a good way to shift focus to someone else while also seeming like a townie. It is also possible that they are both scum. Setting someone up as a sacrifice to ensure everyone views the other as a townie would seem like a very effective strategy. Just my two cents. (Post made from mobile so apologies for lack of quotes) I bolded your post for empahsis. Here is a funny anecdote. When the game started, I decided not to open the role PM until I made a few posts just in case I drew scum again. I thought if I didn't know I was scum, I would not have made scum slips or give away any scum tells. So, not knowing my alignment, I began posting my reads based on what few posts were there at the time. I felt good about my town read on Hapha and even started wondering that maybe I should not have posted pro-town information (that Hapha is town) because there was a chance that I drew scum again. This is when I had the exact same thought as you, Axero. Hapha's sudden change of stance may reflect his scum-slip intention to semi-bus me, his scum partner. But upon checking my PM, I obviously realized this wasn't the case. BTW, I am trying to use this as an absolute proof that I am town. I could easily have made up this story as scum, but I just thought this was interesting. (And hopefully, some of you out there will buy this story, LOL). Since then, I realized that I missed something from Hapha's initial post. So more or less, I am withdrawing my town-read from Hapha. | ||
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YourHarry
United States1152 Posts
Exactly. I wanted Hapha to bring this up first, but since you brought it up first, I will say it. I indeed missed the part where Hapha said he was joking. I actually did read the spoiler, but I mistakenly thought that Hapha was quoting someone else. It wasn't until a few minutes ago that I realized that the content inside the spoiler probably came from Hapha. Obviously, now, I take back my town read on Hapha. I don't know why Hapha didn't correct me regarding this when I first posted my town reads on him. Slightly suspicious of Hapha, because of it. Waiting for him to reply. | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On August 09 2012 14:13 YourHarry wrote: @Hapha I mixed up Calgar and Hapha, LOL. I meant to say, "Hapha, agreed?" @mkfuba Do you agree that Hapha is most-likely town? Your last post, though, is basically a fluff and it also makes me wonder how you possibly missed Hapha's change in stance against lynching me. Did you draw scum again? I have little read on Hapa at the moment, but he's leaning pro-town to me. He is promoting discussion in the same manner he did in the previous game, and I have found no reason to suspect him of anything scummy. As for my post being fluff, I disagree. You say you have a strong read on someone a few hours into the game, and I would like to understand that. I didn't see the flip in his stance that you are basing the read off of, and wanted to know if I misunderstood the premise entirely. And no, I didn't draw scum again. Not that anyone should take my word for it. | ||
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iamperfection
United States9645 Posts
On August 09 2012 14:16 iamperfection wrote: the change with no reason given. you made one post and hapa changed his stance. I would like hapa to give some reasoning for his switch. i didnt see the spolier where he said he was joking never mind | ||
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YourHarry
United States1152 Posts
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
YourHarry: I don't see why I should have assumed you misread anything. I was unsure if it was my own inability to comprehend how you came to your conclusion or some mistake on your part that was causing me to not come to the same conclusion. In order to find out which was the case, I needed to verify that I was understanding your argument correctly and ask for a clarification of your evidence, because I didn't see any. I did note the possibility that you missed, or pretended to miss, the spoiler, but if you intentionally left it out then I wasn't giving you a "get out of false claim free" card. The way in which you explain and compensate for that mistake is information, just as much as the presence of the mistake itself. | ||
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YourHarry
United States1152 Posts
I don't buy your case against Lvdr. While, whether one-liner posts without any logical explanations is beneficial to town in the early stages of the game is up for an argument, I do not think scums have tendency to post such one liners. I (though may be an exception) tend to post bunch of trolling one-liners as town (see my previous 2 games). Second, his read that both "me and Hapha are both scums or both towns" seems to be based on some logic. I agree that maybe he could have posted a quick explanations behind his read, but allowing some time for people to think about how Lvdr arrived at such conclusion could be good for town. In this case, he could have may be said "Discuss" or something. But as you mentioned, NEITHER town or scum has a motivation to post random suspicions. Add the fact that he was drunk... I fail to see scummy reads from Lvdr. Now, take Lvdr's last quote: "More plausible than yh then?" In context, Lvdr was simply asking Hapha for his opinions on who he thinks is scummier, me or Lvdr. If Lvdr indeed thought that Hapha and I were scums together, I can imagine Lvdr's intention to confirm this read based on Hapha's response. And, mkfuba, by your putative "scum motivation" do you mean Lvdr is actively trying to confuse town by posting incoherent one liners? If so, I find it hard to imagine scums methodically engineering incoherent one liners to confuse town. In summary, I accuse you of possibly attempting to endorse/set-up Lvdr bandwagon by fabricating evidence from bunch one-liners posted when he was drunk. | ||
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YourHarry
United States1152 Posts
On August 09 2012 15:00 mkfuba07 wrote: Sorry, getting mega ninja'd over here. YourHarry: I don't see why I should have assumed you misread anything. I was unsure if it was my own inability to comprehend how you came to your conclusion or some mistake on your part that was causing me to not come to the same conclusion. In order to find out which was the case, I needed to verify that I was understanding your argument correctly and ask for a clarification of your evidence, because I didn't see any. I did note the possibility that you missed, or pretended to miss, the spoiler, but if you intentionally left it out then I wasn't giving you a "get out of false claim free" card. The way in which you explain and compensate for that mistake is information, just as much as the presence of the mistake itself. OK. I don't think you noted the possibility that I missed the spoiler. This came after I revealed that I indeed missed something from Hapha's post. I want to know when you first asked me for the evidence, if it crossed your mind that I simply may have missed the spoiler or not. | ||
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YourHarry
United States1152 Posts
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
On August 09 2012 15:08 YourHarry wrote: FOS mkfuba I don't buy your case against Lvdr. While, whether one-liner posts without any logical explanations is beneficial to town in the early stages of the game is up for an argument, I do not think scums have tendency to post such one liners. I (though may be an exception) tend to post bunch of trolling one-liners as town (see my previous 2 games). Second, his read that both "me and Hapha are both scums or both towns" seems to be based on some logic. I agree that maybe he could have posted a quick explanations behind his read, but allowing some time for people to think about how Lvdr arrived at such conclusion could be good for town. In this case, he could have may be said "Discuss" or something. But as you mentioned, NEITHER town or scum has a motivation to post random suspicions. I find it suspicious to present a read, the only interpretation of which is "these two people are both scum", and then leave it for other people to either support it or deny it. It allows you to avoid providing your own evidence. It makes it so that if something comes of the discussion that was started here, his only involvement was a question while drunk. I actually feel the same way about people who end their reads with "Discuss." There are few reasons to withhold your own reasoning for your own reads. In addition, his last three posts, the ones I find suspicious, are all posed as questions instead of assertions. This distances him from the end result. Add the fact that he was drunk... I fail to see scummy reads from Lvdr. There are two things that make this suspicious to me. First, it's an excuse. Anything can be passed off as a small suspicion that he posted in the thread because he was drunk. Second, why keep posting when you've already said you're drunk and it's affecting your thinking? Now, take Lvdr's last quote: "More plausible than yh then?" In context, Lvdr was simply asking Hapha for his opinions on who he thinks is scummier, me or Lvdr. If Lvdr indeed thought that Hapha and I were scums together, I can imagine Lvdr's intention to confirm this read based on Hapha's response. And, mkfuba, by your putative "scum motivation" do you mean Lvdr is actively trying to confuse town by posting incoherent one liners? If so, I find it hard to imagine scums methodically engineering incoherent one liners to confuse town. I've already addressed this in my previous post, but I felt like that was already answered by Hapa. After considering it, I will definitely admit that I made some assumptions about Hapa which carried over into my read on Lvdr. I made an assumption that Hapa would not be suspicious of you, as you hadn't done anything overtly suspicious up to that point, and from what little I know of him from the last two days he doesn't cry scum without a reason. I then assumed that Lvdr would come to the same conclusion. This was a mistake and you can infer from it what you will, but it doesn't hurt my overall read. What I originally found scummy were the implications with so many excuses to fall behind. After your response to me, you did have me doubting my read, especially with the assumption I made at the end. Now, after thinking about it this long, the way in which the first question was phrased is very scummy to me. When I saw your original post, as town I thought "they might both be mafia." Even checking my read post, I only stated that you might both be mafia. I subconsciously cut out the town part because it didn't fit. When he saw it, he thought "They might both be mafia or both be town." That's not how townies think. They're suspicious and are operating under a lack of information. They would consider you two working together as scum after such a quick strong read, but they wouldn't carry that consideration into town because there is no way for two townies to set up such a thing. After this realization, I am offering this as well as my read post as an official case. I will rewrite it more succinctly if anyone feels like anything is too fluffy. In summary, I accuse you of possibly attempting to endorse/set-up Lvdr bandwagon by fabricating evidence from bunch one-liners posted when he was drunk. My intention with the read post was to point out play that was working against the town and hopefully get a response from Lvdr himself in response to my suspicions. It hadn't occurred to me that anyone would respond to me before he did, but I'm glad it happened because it caused me to reevaluate my read. I felt that all of my inferences were viable, though I now realize I had jumped the gun on some. However, I firmly believe that my new evidence is a significant scumslip. As such, I accept full responsibility if a bandwagon forms on Lvdr, as at this time I firmly believe he is scum. ##vote Lvdr | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
On August 09 2012 15:12 YourHarry wrote: OK. I don't think you noted the possibility that I missed the spoiler. This came after I revealed that I indeed missed something from Hapha's post. I want to know when you first asked me for the evidence, if it crossed your mind that I simply may have missed the spoiler or not. As I said, if I had told you "I think you missed this spoiler" then your response could have simply been "Oh, I did miss that spoiler. Sorry about that!" I did that in the Prom case from last game. In an attempt to get as much information flowing into the game as possible, I wanted to discover whether or not you intentionally "misread". I don't know why you would, but that doesn't mean that you don't have a reason to do so. When I asked for evidence from you, my three options were (not in a particular order): 1. I was misunderstanding the post 2. You were intentionally misrepresenting the post 3. You made a mistake in the post If I misunderstood the post, you would clarify it. If you made a mistake, you would either find the mistake immediately or try to clarify it. If you intentionally misrepresented the post, you would almost definitely notice your "mistake" right away. Since you then clarified it and I had not actually misunderstood the post, I feel confident in saying that you simply made a mistake and there was nothing malicious behind it. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
I get the feeling no one read my spoiler quote T_T http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=21#415 "I'm joking of course, but given how much thought YourHarry put into his scum play for the last two days, I have high expectations of him if he's town. " Looks like YH picked up on it and retraced it though, so all is back to normal. Getting to the recent wave of posting in a bit. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
@ Mkfuba: Good case, and much much better than the one on Prom from yetserday. I had the same thoughts on the "both mafia or both town" quote - it isn't how townies normally think. He doesn't consider the possibility of one of us being scum or one being town, etc. For now, FOS Lvdr. He's behaving differently than yesterday in a scummy way. I won't yet cast my vote, because there is a possibility that he's just drunk. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On August 09 2012 14:22 Axero wrote: That doesn't mean Hapa is a townie. Scum know who eachother are, therefore Hapa could know your alignment and could be setting you up to get lynched. It's a good way to shift focus to someone else while also seeming like a townie. It is also possible that they are both scum. Setting someone up as a sacrifice to ensure everyone views the other as a townie would seem like a very effective strategy. Just my two cents. (Post made from mobile so apologies for lack of quotes) This post makes absolutely no sense. Your first "theory": YH is town and I am mafia. Somehow, my exchange with YourHarry is a ploy for me to get YH lynched. Hell I haven't pointed any suspicion at YH! How exactly does this theory make sense? Your second "theory": Mafia do not seriously bus each other early in Day 1. Maybe a mini-argument to distance themselves from one another (like the mini-argument between mkfuba and YourHarry early on D1 last game), but never any serious suspicion Hell I don't understand what part of our exchange constitutes any suspicion at all. You have to explain this more Axero. Wild theories won't get you anywhere, especially if they suggest that you haven't read or analyzed the early-game exchange between me and YourHarry. | ||
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iamperfection
United States9645 Posts
but fos Lvdr @hapa On August 10 2012 01:03 Hapahauli wrote: Regarding YourHarry's "Town Read" on Me: I get the feeling no one read my spoiler quote T_T http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=21#415 "I'm joking of course, but given how much thought YourHarry put into his scum play for the last two days, I have high expectations of him if he's town. " yes. I think we should only use spoilers for very large detailed cases. i think ( ) would do better for little asides like that. | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
my gut feeling is that lvdr is playing too dumb to be scum but after Harry's stellar scum play in XXIII.O (hah, see what I did there) I have to leave him as a null to slightly scummy read. I do have to say that Gonzaw considers drunk posting to be a town characteristic though it has been proven to be a scum one as well at least once (by me, XIX). That makes the drunk posts null in my eyes. I'm doing my best to catch up read and re-read. I already have one crazy connection theory which is too dumb to post so good news on that front. I really don't understand posting a town read this early and it feels somewhat scummy to me, optimal play is to post scum reads and cases to go with them, town reads come about by way of elimination or as a hard defense of someone on the chopping block who you feel is a townie. A town read a few hours into a day seems like a bad play from someone who has just proved themselves to be a good player, as such I cast a FoS upon Harry and a lesser one on lvdr for his abysmally shitty posting thus far. Shape up if you are town, if not feel free to keep on trucking as you are. | ||
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