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Nice write up! Just 1 question : ).
Overall Town
Despite mudslinging early on between Release and Grush, there was a lot of activity throughout the game. People bemoaned lurking, but remember this is a 9 player game. I thought the activity was enough to have substance without being spammy. The biggest problem was not re-reading closely, especially s0Lstice's reads. You have to think; WHY would they shoot s0Lstice over Release? Release was pushing ha and grush a lot, while s0Lstice was leaning against KtheZ a lot. Take that into account. Also, if you're blue remember it's important to try and act as green as possible; if you act scared, it makes you more obvious to scum, and suspicious to your comrades. Clutch blue play from Lazermonkey sealed the deal; town deserved this win overall. Even without the weird claim from grush, town was in a good position to win it as long as Release refocused his thoughts.
Don't you think it's WIFOM to discuss why people were killed? Let's say they instead killed Release N1 then we could have argued that grush/ha would be scum because of that. At the same time Kthez would look even more clean because why would scum let anyone who are pushing their case live.
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
On June 17 2012 23:06 Lazermonkey wrote:Nice write up! Just 1 question : ). Show nested quote +Overall Town
Despite mudslinging early on between Release and Grush, there was a lot of activity throughout the game. People bemoaned lurking, but remember this is a 9 player game. I thought the activity was enough to have substance without being spammy. The biggest problem was not re-reading closely, especially s0Lstice's reads. You have to think; WHY would they shoot s0Lstice over Release? Release was pushing ha and grush a lot, while s0Lstice was leaning against KtheZ a lot. Take that into account. Also, if you're blue remember it's important to try and act as green as possible; if you act scared, it makes you more obvious to scum, and suspicious to your comrades. Clutch blue play from Lazermonkey sealed the deal; town deserved this win overall. Even without the weird claim from grush, town was in a good position to win it as long as Release refocused his thoughts.
Don't you think it's WIFOM to discuss why people were killed? Let's say they instead killed Release N1 then we could have argued that grush/ha would be scum because of that. At the same time Kthez would look even more clean because why would scum let anyone who are pushing their case live.
It might be WIFOM, but if you're going into a close vote as mafia and you NEED a townie to agree with you, killing the one who disagrees with you is really really a lot easier than killing the one who agrees with you and trying to convince the disagreeing one. Imagine a WIFOM situation where you have to out-armwrestling your opponent to drink from a cup that's not your own. Where do you put the poison?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
my own, because I have beautiful arms and would win the arm wrestle
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On June 17 2012 23:06 Lazermonkey wrote:Nice write up! Just 1 question : ). Show nested quote +Overall Town
Despite mudslinging early on between Release and Grush, there was a lot of activity throughout the game. People bemoaned lurking, but remember this is a 9 player game. I thought the activity was enough to have substance without being spammy. The biggest problem was not re-reading closely, especially s0Lstice's reads. You have to think; WHY would they shoot s0Lstice over Release? Release was pushing ha and grush a lot, while s0Lstice was leaning against KtheZ a lot. Take that into account. Also, if you're blue remember it's important to try and act as green as possible; if you act scared, it makes you more obvious to scum, and suspicious to your comrades. Clutch blue play from Lazermonkey sealed the deal; town deserved this win overall. Even without the weird claim from grush, town was in a good position to win it as long as Release refocused his thoughts.
Don't you think it's WIFOM to discuss why people were killed? Let's say they instead killed Release N1 then we could have argued that grush/ha would be scum because of that. At the same time Kthez would look even more clean because why would scum let anyone who are pushing their case live.
as a more srious answer, it is wifom yeah but it's not useless. it's a piece of evidence that you could fit into a bigger puzzle. it doesn't HAVE to be that way, but it gives your thoughts a nudge in a certain direction. see what i mean?
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Yeah, BH said it. If you are facing crafty scum players, then you will have to be more careful, but more often than not scum will go for "optimal" plays, which means you can try and counteract that.
I believe marv won his newbie game by arguing something like "because scum killed X and let you live, I can't be scum because you openly stated that you think I'm scum, while X was more on the fence. If I was scum I would've shot you instead, not X."
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
you make it sound so dumb and simple, but i promise it made better sense than it sounded there 
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btw, I resurrected Lazer for flavor, he's dead yo
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Tunneling Ha = Fishing for reactions. I caught Kthez in this way, but i couldn't decide between ShiaoPi and Vivax.
Kthez said something like Ha not doing shit, only OMGUS, definitely scum (or something like that). Too complacent with my case on Ha, whom after reading his filter, i decided he was more likely to be town.
Also, you didn't mention Lazermonkey's case on Vivax as a breadcrumb to being the DT. When i first read it, i felt that Vivax wasn't really a contender for lynch, and suddenly, LM has a case on Vivax. He is probably the dt...
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On June 18 2012 02:46 Release wrote:
Tunneling Ha = Fishing for reactions. I caught Kthez in this way, but i couldn't decide between ShiaoPi and Vivax.
Kthez said something like Ha not doing shit, only OMGUS, definitely scum (or something like that). Too complacent with my case on Ha, whom after reading his filter, i decided he was more likely to be town.
Also, you didn't mention Lazermonkey's case on Vivax as a breadcrumb to being the DT. When i first read it, i felt that Vivax wasn't really a contender for lynch, and suddenly, LM has a case on Vivax. He is probably the dt...
I suppose tunneling for reactions isn't a bad idea, but to ha236 it probably looked like you were going to mislynch him into the ground. Going for reaction based plays is pretty common but you have to execute them right; it would've been tricky to explain to people how you didn't think ha was scum anymore despite being on his ass all game. Ha236 would also probably be completely demoralized and unmotivated to try and find out the final scum. And didn't you breadcrumb "Don't worry KtheZ", indicating that you thought he was town? That makes a bit more sense now, though.
I don't see the breadcrumb. Where is it? It just looks like LM made a big case on Vivax. Just because a player comes out with a big case on someone that they hadn't previously commented on, doesn't mean that it's a DT tell.
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On June 16 2012 20:06 Lazermonkey wrote:
In the end I kinda flipped a coin to decide which of theese three I would check : ).
Next-level three-sided coin engage!
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Thanks for hosting, cool night/day posts and I had a good time.
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Just read the post-game analysis. Big thanks to ET for taking the time to write it. Flavor was awesome as well.
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On June 18 2012 03:17 EchelonTee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 02:46 Release wrote:
Tunneling Ha = Fishing for reactions. I caught Kthez in this way, but i couldn't decide between ShiaoPi and Vivax.
Kthez said something like Ha not doing shit, only OMGUS, definitely scum (or something like that). Too complacent with my case on Ha, whom after reading his filter, i decided he was more likely to be town.
Also, you didn't mention Lazermonkey's case on Vivax as a breadcrumb to being the DT. When i first read it, i felt that Vivax wasn't really a contender for lynch, and suddenly, LM has a case on Vivax. He is probably the dt... I suppose tunneling for reactions isn't a bad idea, but to ha236 it probably looked like you were going to mislynch him into the ground. Going for reaction based plays is pretty common but you have to execute them right; it would've been tricky to explain to people how you didn't think ha was scum anymore despite being on his ass all game. Ha236 would also probably be completely demoralized and unmotivated to try and find out the final scum. And didn't you breadcrumb "Don't worry KtheZ", indicating that you thought he was town? That makes a bit more sense now, though. I don't see the breadcrumb. Where is it? It just looks like LM made a big case on Vivax. Just because a player comes out with a big case on someone that they hadn't previously commented on, doesn't mean that it's a DT tell.
Dont wory Kthez = Please save my life, i'm on your side...
I also repeated said Vivax>LM and LM must be the scum, so that i convince scum to keep myself alive (bashing down the DT) so that if LM really did turn out to be the DT, he would have a high chance to win us the game.
At this point, i still didn't know if it was Vivax or ShiaoPi was the other one, but LM and Vivax were interacting with each other and shiao wasn't.
guess i was a bit harsh on ha though....
A little bit of clarification: day 1 i was legitimately scumhunting on ha, and after big post on night one was intentional tunneling.
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Nice writeup ET, I agree with pretty much everything you wrote there. It sucks being a coach and not able to actually provide concrete advice. All I could say was "post more!!!!"
The counterclaim was definitely an emotional response and in that respect it was the incorrect play. I agree waiting a bit to see whether someone else claims is an option. There are no framers so it comes down to KtheZ's word versus Grush's which given the KMan didn't make himself uber-townie upfront could have gone with the blue claim. From a scum point of view there is no reason to believe that Grush was fakeclaiming, so a counterclaim is reasonable but I think waiting until less shocked would have been better.
I don't agree that you can read into Solstice's death. Yes his case was big and clear but his death should not influence how much credit you put into it. It the case was not enough to convince you before, him flipping green should not change that. Townies are generally wrong more than they are right so knowing he is green doesn't make his case any better. Anyway, it is a debatable point and something scum can abuse, so I avoid it.
Finally, whilst this game was balanced and I don't think the blues had the decisive role, this setup is prone to swinging wildly in town's favour. Two blues out of 5 townies is insane and as you mentioned Town could have played follow the cop. If he had claimed day 2 with a green check, assuming two townies dead (misslynch and night kill) already that gives you two presumed townies out of 7 players, plus the possibility of a medic blocking a night kill. Scum then have to roleblock the cop and try and hunt the medic, whilst the medic knows he is not getting blocked that night. That is a hugely powerful position to be in as town and has nothing to do with how they played. I would prefer newbie games to have no DT or a really weak version (tracker/watcher) because in this setup he has too much power.
Well played town, scum were outplayed by a few but very good players. I look forward to having a game with you guys 
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You're right that it's debatable on how to deal with dead people. However, I really do think that it's a current weakness of TL Towns that they don't re-read dead people's words. The most egregious example is TL Mafia L; Protactinium (Incognito/Mystlord hydra) posted a large case saying X, Y, Z are probably scum, N is probably not scum. Protact flips DT..... and game continues on for like another 3 days without lynching the people he pointed out? That example is more extreme because it's a flipped DT, but still. If someone you trust to be logical flips, if you're not sure where to look, look at their words and you'll find some stuff. Of course, you do have to watch out if scum shoot someone so that town will be lead into a false conclusion. However, whenever I roll scum, if I have to pick between 4-5 vets/super townies, I almost always shoot the ones that are on the right track / starting to suspect me or my mates, and leave the other ones alive. Changing your mind is a lot harder than tunneling your convictions you already have.
Trackers and watchers are less obvious roles to understand; medics and DTs are most common because they work very simply, and are the most common roles from RL mafia, so people are probably familiar with them. JK is a good alternate to medic, that makes follow the cop not as good. I think framers, millers, and GFers are enough to weaken DTs. I think you would agree, Mr. Probe :p
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Tbh, i feel we should've used a framer/GF in this game or something to prevent said gambles to "insta-win" the game. We had 2 gambles (Grush, and scumcheck N1) pay off, which is a victory to be overly proud about. The end was a bit anti-climactic (although being funny as hell)
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Yup, I agree whole-heartedly with framer/GF/Miller.
You have to remember that despite towns having tons of stacked blue roles in the past (I remember a 2vet, 1vig, 6 townie vs. 3 goon setup), newbie towns lose, like, all the time. Even if it wasn't the most epic or clean victory, a newbie victory is something to be proud of.
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On June 18 2012 09:07 EchelonTee wrote:
I think framers, millers, and GFers are enough to weaken DTs. I think you would agree, Mr. Probe :p
You're such a bastard
My checks that game were terrible and I know it.
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On June 18 2012 09:15 EchelonTee wrote:
Yup, I agree whole-heartedly with framer/GF/Miller.
You have to remember that despite towns having tons of stacked blue roles in the past (I remember a 2vet, 1vig, 6 townie vs. 3 goon setup), newbie towns lose, like, all the time. Even if it wasn't the most epic or clean victory, a newbie victory is something to be proud of.
It's also the size of the game. Having a 7/2 setup makes a DT check much more powerful as it can halve scum numbers. I think larger games or having ways to combat a DT are needed. I hate Millers cause they are passive roles, I think framers are what is needed as it adds a dynamic to how scum play.
Town played really well this game especially because everyone posted and participated. If you look at the older newbie games, there is always someone modkilled, or barely posting, and there are often replacements. This give scum a huge advantage.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On June 18 2012 09:16 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 09:07 EchelonTee wrote:
I think framers, millers, and GFers are enough to weaken DTs. I think you would agree, Mr. Probe :p You're such a bastard My checks that game were terrible and I know it.
Meh, I think only your Wiggles check was actually bad tbh.
On June 18 2012 09:15 EchelonTee wrote:
Yup, I agree whole-heartedly with framer/GF/Miller.
You have to remember that despite towns having tons of stacked blue roles in the past (I remember a 2vet, 1vig, 6 townie vs. 3 goon setup), newbie towns lose, like, all the time. Even if it wasn't the most epic or clean victory, a newbie victory is something to be proud of.
This is also true. The setup we had here wasn't bad.
The problem was that there wasn't the threat that there could be a miller, framer or gf, one doesn't even need to actually exist necessarily.
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EPT
