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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
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gonzaw
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It seems impossible to win for the Crazy Fiend. He can only lose by being lynched, but damn with only 1 bullet it makes it quite hard for him. Also, if scum ever shoot him, they can be dicks and out him or something; like right before one of those scum get lynched, they say "Hey! I'm scum, we shot [guy] and he didn't die, he's SK please kill him for us" or something. That would be a downer for the poor guy | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 04 2012 17:16 EchelonTee wrote: That's pretty poor ettiquete, I would say, and isn't optimal play either.. Scum COULD do that, but realistically, the SK wants the scum to live so that they will shoot up town for them. Therefore, scum benefit from having SK around. No, if it's 4-2-1 or something like that then it's kind of optimal for them to do that (in which case the scum getting lynched would force a 2-1 LYLO instead of a 2-1-1 or something and having the SK around) | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 05 2012 06:33 chaoser wrote: how can town be sure the person mafia points at is actually the fiend? On June 05 2012 06:33 Radfield wrote: A better play is for scum to pin it on some shmuck townie instead. That way town lynches the shmuck, and there is still another anti-town player in the game to muddle the waters. Mafia need the SK lynched to win, that's a fact. The SK is bulletproof, so he can only die by lynch. If scum already shot the SK and know his identity, AND one of them is being lynched; then depending on the situation (again for instance a 4-2-1 situation) they can out the SK so: -The remaining scum survives the next day 100% -They already fulfill their win con of killing the SK -If the SK hasn't used his bullet yet, he has less chance of shooting one of them the less he lives Imagine it's 4-2-1, and 1 scum gets lynched, and right before getting lynched he outs the SK (of course there in a previous night there was no night kills at all). Would you really think he'd lie? Let's analyze it (lets assume town will follow the plan): -If he tells the truth: It will be 4-1-1 at night, 3-1-1 at day. They lynch the outed guy, who flips SK. It's 3-1 at night, 2-1 at day, LYLO for both scum and town, and both can win -If he lies: It will be 4-1-1 at night, 3-1-1 at day. They lynch the outed guy, flips town. It's 2-1-1 at night, 1-1-1 at day, kingmaker scenario (and a draw I guess) Why would scum lie to force a kingmaker scenario? They wouldn't so they tell the truth and outted the SK In Arkham Asylum they did in fact out the Joker, even thought everybody thought they were lying. At times it's better for scum to kill the 3rd party than keep them around to fuck town up some more. It boils down to a struggle between 2 factions (for scum). If they think the SK faction is more dangerous than the Town faction, then they can do that without problems. Maybe similar situations like that can happen, maybe in a 5-2-1 situation as well, or something. In that case the Fiend is fucked | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 07 2012 10:00 Radfield wrote: Gonzaw, it looks like you've been around for the least amount of time on the Mafia Forum. I expect you to do the heavy lifting  I don't expect me to do the "heavy lifting", I expect me to win  I like this game because if I'm town I won't get likely shot N1 (that would be you Rad!  ).Playing til endgame as town -> Dream of mine | ||
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gonzaw
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As you can see, I'm the Lover in love with the Town Idiot, and I'll.... ...wait wat | ||
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gonzaw
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Also Crazy Fiend you are done for as well. Uruguay is playing, after the game ends I'll read and shit. | ||
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On June 10 2012 14:56 VisceraEyes wrote: In theory, removing scum's ability to influence the lynch by agreeing as a town to lynch by RNG, there's a higher chance of actually hitting scum with the lynch (no scum argumentation, no scum voting influence)...and the chances aren't bad for hitting scum randomly. In theory. I can never bring myself to trust whatever method the town decides to pick the lynch, and so feel I'm being manipulated anyway. *shrug* So, this is a game with all the "greatest mafia players of this site", where 8 of them are town, yet you think there's a higher chance of hitting scum randomly than by analysis of those "great" players? Why the fuck are some people even considering RNG at all? chaoser, what's up bro? On June 11 2012 03:37 Radfield wrote: That's not how you RNG. You RNG based on something verifiable, and then everyone follows the result. For instance, Detroit play Cincinnati tonight(mlb). So you assign everyone a number of hits. Then, however many hits there are in that game, that player gets lynched. Hits are a good RNG, because they vary in quite a range, and the average is probably around 17/18 hits per game. Because players near the average are more likely to get lynched, you run it like a snake: 17 gonzaw ---- avg 17.5 hits or so? Sorry puppy, I was NEVER lynched in any game in TL, even in the 4 games I was scum, and I will certainly not get lynched this game. On June 10 2012 08:25 Radfield wrote: In other news we could RNG a lynch. Ace, Palmar! GOGOGO! On June 10 2012 09:00 Radfield wrote: Can you hit me with the actual reasoning behind an RNG lynch. I honestly don't understand the benefit. Okay, I doubt this is a scumslip or anything and you just did it as a joke or something, but just for confirmation: Why did you propose a RNG but then oppose one? On June 10 2012 09:44 Mr. Wiggles wrote: No, I meant because you both want to lynch Ace. :p Unless you love Ace as well, and then maybe Rad is just jealous, and is trying to kill Ace to steal you away from him. Isn't the idea behind RNG that we have nothing to talk about, so it provides a talking point, and that it makes mafia sweat, because they have no control over it, so if you decide to lynch a scum they'll freak out and the reaction will be enough to lynch them anyways? Yes, perhaps the purpose of the RNG thing is in fact that. Why don't you follow your own advice and talk about it then? What's your stance on it? Okay people, let me put up an alternative for RNG, actual analysis influenced lynch: Okay, first of all I want to say something: Don't let D1 behaviour be the "end all" to determine who is scum or not!! Scum have it so freaking easy to be pro-town on D1 it's not funny (trust me, I know). If you have a town read on D1, I suggest that by D2-D3 you get completely rid of it and re-analyze the player without taking that into account. But, it's D1 and we need to start somewhere, so I'll try to start on players that I think may try to blend in: Greymist: On June 10 2012 08:31 GreYMisT wrote: Sup guys, i'm the 4th round invite. looking forward to a game which is both full of analysis, fun, and not 80page long day 1's This already set up some red flags. He says he's eager for a game full of analysis. However, as you can see with all his posts since then he focuses 100% of his attention on discussing the RNG deal...yet I don't see any analysis anywhere. If he was town I'd think he'd try to get some analysis himself by now, and not just idle chat with people, making his filter larger with uninteresting stuff. Wiggles: Because of that post from above. He tells us that perhaps the RNG talk is just there to create discussion and make "mafia sweat"; however he doesn't discuss anything about it himself. It seems like he just wanted to say "something pro-town" and say something that would make him fit; but he didn't really care about what he actually said and didn't follow the implicit advise he proposed with it. Anyways, Greymist posted more "fluff" while seeming more eager to make analysis, so my vote is on him for now. ##Vote: Greymist So people, discuss. Of course, like I said I just want to find the "suspicious" behaviour that I could see one of these "great players" make as scum. It's possible Palmar will be trolling again as scum and just focus 100% of his attention on RNG and that site as well; it's possible Heymir is scum and will lurk the game away. It's possible Rad is setting up his usual "most pro-town player D1" meta as scum by initiating discussion about something irrelevant with finding scum. So I'm awaiting the responses from those 3 the most. | ||
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gonzaw
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Well, hey scum! If you ever shoot the CF and you are getting lynched, could you out his identity to us before you get lynched? Here read this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=3#46 | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 11 2012 06:06 Palmar wrote: There is no 100% of attention to be focused on a site that's already ready, and if we RNG by it I won't be awake to make the timing call nor see the result until next morning. so you're creating shit that doesn't exist. I do find it hilarious that you guys are the most "experienced" players in this game but it seems you guys are so frightened of making analysis or something that you want to retort to RNG. Not even in Newbie Games people take RNG seriously, and those are the "noobs" that "are shit at analysing". Last game you played as scum you started tunneling someone that was not too far in the spotlight very early in the game. Last game as scum there were 2 scum factions and for most of the game I believed that the player I was "tunneling" was in fact scum from the other faction Irrelevant. Your entire case on Greymist is that he "posted fluff" which can be said about half the players in the game. Discussing a RNG lynch is by definition fluff, it's only what you do with the information that results from it that can be very helpful. Yes, it is "fluff" and it's not based on analysis, which is what Greymist said he was eager to experience this game. He was the one that said/implied he'd want analysis made this game, which is why I'm holding him accountable alone. VE didn't say he'd want analysis this game, he might just be dicking around on purpose and wanting to dick around on purpose. However Grey said otherwise, so yeah I'm holding him accountable, and I find it suspicious because of it. After Liar Game, in Post-Game Ver/Incognito said that ET made a "statement that he could be held accountable" at the start of D1 (that he'd tunnel sandro if sandro was scummy). They said that taking that statement alone, and his behaviour later in the game he was obvious scum. They also said everybody (except chaoser) completely ignored that. I tried to get the hint and pay close attention to any similar statement made on D1 that can be used to hold that player accountable, which is why I paid close attention to Grey's statement. Do you believe that Greymist has more chance than anyone else in the game to flip scum gonzaw? What do you think about Radfield? For now yes, either him or Wiggles. Most of all, I want to start some meaningful discussion that's not centered on retarded RNG. About Radfield: As soon as the game started, he was the 2nd person to post. He seemed very eager to post, contribute, and get the game going. I find those very positive traits. However, the only discussion he's been part of (where he's been "active" and "contributing" ) was about the RNG deal, and not about trying to actually find scum. That makes him null to me, since like I said, if he was scum he could have easily tried to establish his "D1 town meta" by "pseudo-contributing" about irrelevant stuff, like the RNG deal or the "let's lynch someone we know is dangerous as scum! Let's lynch Ace/Palmar!" deal. However, again that makes him null or slightly town for me today (like I said after D2-D3 I'd be best to reanalyze his posts and not keep that same "town read). Plus he always gets killed on N1 (whether scum or CF), and he always gets retarded-ly lynched on D1 (I know that feel bro, just check any UG game I've been town in  ); so I don't want him lynched right now (based on what's been posted in the thread).Like I said, I'm waiting for his response on the Wiggles/Greymist deal | ||
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On June 11 2012 06:14 Palmar wrote: Just for the record, I think MZ failed already and I'd be willing to lynch him. Piggybacking on Greymist's thoughts on RNG to express your own thoughts while making sure you're not the original argument for the idea is terrible. Let's do this. I noticed that too; but I wanted to wait and see how he behaves after that. I didn't see any aparent scum motivation with his post, but it's "fishy" enough to keep a close eye on him and see how he acts the remainder of D1. On June 11 2012 06:13 GreYMisT wrote: You accuse me of only posting fluff while I stated I would not be able to do much for all of today. Strawman. I accuse you of not "holding" your end of the deal in that previous post you made. You certainly did have time to discuss the RNG thing instead of analyzing, or at least trying to analyze, so you justifying it by saying "I don't have enough time" is irrelevant. why bring this up now? there has not been a missing KP, nor has there even been a night phase. The only reasoning I can see behind this post is to remind the thread that you have thought critically (before the game started) and to get us off track of discussing a lynch. Because I don't want scum to forget about it. After I posted that, I realized that if I was Crazy Fiend this game I'd be fucked However I'm not so it's all cool (just another game mechanic to take advantage of), that way we can try to focus on catching scum alone, and perhaps let scum get rid of the CF themselves (by shooting him+outing him in the thread later). he only reasoning I can see behind this post is to remind the thread that you have thought critically (before the game started) and to get us off track of discussing a lynch Right, my only reasoning behind that post was to "get us off track of discussing a lynch", when I was the only that tried to get you people to abandon wasting time with the RNG talk and try to discuss a lynch in the first place You are not doing a good job of defending yourself Greymist. What do you think of Wiggles? | ||
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On June 11 2012 06:20 GreYMisT wrote: Rad said the exact same thing in the early game, and has also been talking mostly about RNG lynches. No, Radfield started talking about policy lynching and some stupid shit early game, not about being eager to get some analysis going. So Grey, do you want me to lynch Radfield instead of you then? Why trying to justify yourself by saying "Well Radfield did it too! Why aren't you lynching him?" What are your thoughts btw? you seem to be hesitant to talk about it. Are you talking to me? ... ... I just made 3 gigantic posts with my thoughts on them...what the hell do you mean? Anyways, I don't want to get too eager and clog up the thread like in some other games (Aperture, LI, etc)So people, discuss @Palmar:I don't like you trying to avoid the Grey issue by diverting attention towards MZ (it seems like a scumtell that both of you are scumbuddies). What is your stance on Grey? What about his defense and my other points I made? | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 11 2012 06:21 GreYMisT wrote: Im afriad im not following this post, can you point out where MZ failed? You should really read the thread instead of asking pointless questions you can easily verify yourself (i.e MZ has like only 2 posts in this whole game, it will take you 5 seconds to filter him and find the post in question). I suggest everybody to re-read filters and the thread occasionally as well. I was having some problems as town lately, mainly unintentionally disrupting the thread, having shitty reads all over the place, not reading the thread enough or thinking critically enough. I'll try to change that this game and see how I fare | ||
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On June 11 2012 06:35 Radfield wrote: Are you referring to me here gonzaw? Because I've only ever been lynched once as town out of 20 or so games. That one lynching was day 1, as by midgame I'm generally either dead or very likely town. I'm down with either a MZ or Greymist lynch at this point. MZ, what in particular made my early play unradfield-like? Well, I only remember Sleeper Cell 2....and that traumatized me for a while >_> What do you think about my case on Grey, his response, and what about Wiggles? | ||
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gonzaw
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Anyways, I'll most likely keep pressuring him until he convinces me otherwise with some analysis or reads of his own, instead of trying to divert attention off him with strawmen/casting doubt/etc. Radfield, what do you think of Palmar's sudden switch from "Let's RNG, here I even went through all the trouble to set up a site that does all the shit and shit" to "Okay I changed my mind, now I find MZ suspicious and I want to lynch him because of this reason"; when the only thing in between was my case on Greymist/Wiggles? Also, what do you think of Palmar trying to divert attention off my Greymist case and on to MZ, and trying to discredit me as well (by saying that "last time I was scum I tunneled someone that was under the radar" and stuff) | ||
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Okay, I doubt this is a scumslip or anything and you just did it as a joke or something, but just for confirmation: Why did you propose a RNG but then oppose one? | ||
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(please read the thread like I asked you to) You also avoided a question I made to you: What do you think of Wiggles? Not only that, but: What do you think of Radfield? Do you think he's scum by the way you cast some suspicion on him? What do you think about Palmar, and his switch from trying to use RNG to ignoring it and voting MZ using "analysis" ? | ||
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On June 11 2012 07:41 GreYMisT wrote: I have been in a car ride from pensacola to north alabama all day, and just got home, have a daypost to write, and have been very busy unpacking, and had a dead phone for most of the trip. You will understand if i am not completely with it at the moment Fair enough. After you get your shit together, I hope for your contributions, and responses to my previous points (don't lurk though!) @Wiggles: Please don't ignore my case on Grey, what do you think of it? I don't like that wall of text of yours that doesn't say anything interesting at all. If you will pull the same "well I'm busy/whatever so I didn't have time to read the thread thoroughly/ or something" card, then you guys really need to state that before making the posts you make. There's no way we can know if you are legitimately busy or are just bored scum posting fluff. On June 11 2012 07:46 Radfield wrote: It's to be expected. I still don't think anyone actually intends to go through with an RNG lynch, but rather uses it as a way to open up Day 1. Well, that's not the answer I was looking for. Yes, I doubt anybody would have pushed the RNG lynch for too long...but I'm asking for your thoughts on the timing of it. I noticed it too, but it's a bit simplistic to draw any conclusions based off that. Either way, I'm happy having attention on both of them for now. If you had to choose a lynch between Palmar, Greymist and Meapak right now, who would you choose and why him instead of one of the other 2? About VE: Yes, him stance on RNG is weird, but I don't really find that suspicious. Mostly because he seemed too eager to post, and I didn't find that his discussion about RNG made him suspicious because of it. Like I say in some previous games, the exact opinion of people regarding RNG, policy lynches, etc does nothing to indicate their alignment (unless they are too crazy about it); but what does is how that affects their behaviour throughout the day. For instance, someone trying to discuss RNG throughout the whole D1 could indicate their alignment. Because of that I want contributions from him first to gauge his alignment, preferably on Greymist, Wiggles and Palmar. @Hesmyrr: I'd really like your opinion on Grey (after reading my case and his response) As of now, I'd support a lynch on either Palmar or Greymist, or maybe Wiggles (reasons stated before). I won't jump on a VE nor MZ lynch until they come, defend themselves and contribute something unrelated to RNG. About chaoser: My gut says he's town, because of his eagerness to make the 1st post and just "screw around" with the RNG idea. I don't think he would even vote for someone based on RNG if he was scum and put himself in the spotlight like that. Again...waiting for him to contribute with something unrelated to RNG. | ||
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On June 11 2012 08:49 VisceraEyes wrote: Oh shit he voted for me? Vanilla Townie + Show Spoiler + Yes, I'm afraid my lack of stance on whether RNG is beneficial for town is NOT indicative of my alignment. The truth is, I can see both sides of the argument, so I'm fine with whatever. I suggest you don't lynch me because of that. I've got opinions. I intend to share them with the class. Wtf? Scumslip much? My role is Vanilla Towny, so that means you just fake-claimed ##Vote: VisceraEyes >_> So VE, please share those reads with the "class" | ||
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>_> (see? like that ) | ||
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We are all VT's what's there to think? He did it as a joke to my previous post, most null tell you can get in this side of the galaxy. I wonder if massclaiming our "flavour" could do anything at all...... (it mostly won't, since it's likely scum get fake-names as well, like in LI) On June 11 2012 09:41 chaoser wrote: Also, you're ok with greymist's latest post's response to your post with "Also I hope that is not your complete reasoning for voting VE, haha." ? I found that a little bit odd....mostly because I couldn't fathom how somebody could have taken my post seriously >_> Then again...you did as well <_< It is odd that, in the case he did take my post seriously...he didn't find it strange at all (considering the freaking Role PMs are in the OP and nobody is "Vanilla Townie" nor "Vanilla Towny"). Grey isn't contributing anything other than his wishy-washy read on Radfield and Palmar, and him being slightly "suspicious" of Wiggles. For someone who was eager to start analyzing and shit that's lazy as fuck. He hasn't done anything to convince me otherwise, so I'll leave my vote on him and want him pressured until he is forced to give more content, or just die as scum. chaoser, you still haven't commented on my case on Grey nor his response to it. On June 11 2012 09:56 VisceraEyes wrote: What strikes me as "unRadfieldlike" is how little he's interested in getting people to comment on others. In other games I've played with him as town, he's consistently asking people what they think of others, trying to get that information in the thread. What I've seen this game is a less motivated Radfield, more interested in chit-chat and buddying with others than getting their opinions of their peers. This is why I'm down to lynch Radfield. I don't think he's townRadfield. I think he's scumRadfield. Then vote him, what are you waiting for? VE, you promised "the class" your opinions...where are they? @MZ: Post more thoughts related to the current events in this thread please | ||
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On June 11 2012 10:12 VisceraEyes wrote: Calm down gonzaw. I gave you my thoughts on Radfield. I'll vote him if I think we can lynch him. Instead of asking me again for my opinions, after I've given them, why don't you tell me if you agree with me on Radfield so I know whether voting for him is going to serve a purpose? For the record, the OP states explicitly that we can post our role PMs. If we wanna go down that road, you guys feel free...but I don't think we need to resort to noob tactics today. I agree that Radfield is not being as cooperative as I'd think (he's saying "It's still too early to come to conclusions" or similar way too much). I don't agree with lynching him now though, I want to lynch Grey @chaoser: Maybe my "initial" case was me being too excited about thinking I easily caught Grey and is not a "case" per se. However, I still refer to the next responses of Grey as the "case" as well (and the points I made), and also the fact that he still hasn't posted any meaningful content yet (apart from those 3 "reads" he made) | ||
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On June 11 2012 10:34 chaoser wrote: Neither has a vast majority of the people playing? Look at Ace? Look at Brownbear? Especially the latter, he asks for more debate but then doesn't add to said debate. So why are you on greymist for something and not others? Your reasoning leads to a null read right now, not a scum read Grey has posted tons....Ace and BB haven't | ||
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 Or are you only attacking my accusations of Grey, but you still think Grey is scum? | ||
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I'm finding BrownBear a little suspicious, only because he was so eager to initiate some conversation here: On June 11 2012 03:39 BrownBear wrote: and radfield, who ninja'd me to a certain extent. so, let's spark some real discussion. chaoser, what do you have against ace this game. question mark goes here. But he never dwelled on that later and never showed up. | ||
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On June 11 2012 11:00 chaoser wrote: Your accusation that he's not doing any analysis is at 5:56 on June 11. At that time, he had only posted 8 posts since game started. Brownbear had posted 5. I didn't realize 8 posts was "tons". I think Greymist is scummy and I also think your reasoning for voting him is shit. Did you read the post I made about him? Grey explicitly said he was eager for analysis; he implicitly said he'd be eager to start making analysis himself (if he wasn't, then that was a contradiction from him and even scummier). BB never said he'd be eager for such, for all I know he's a bored townie that doesn't care shit about anything. Grey wasn't, he was eager to get the game started and post content, but he failed to produce it. On June 11 2012 11:00 GreYMisT wrote: For the record, my reaction had a "haha" after it, Gonzaws had a <_<. Mine is equally joking, if not more so. In any case, I am very worried about Ace after rereading. Particularly his post asking for caoser to respond to something someone else said without providing us anything, as well as saying he is down for an RNG lynch and then disappearing without again, giving us anything. Ace has bounced around a bit today without polarizing or giving town anything ##Vote: Ace Really? Voting Ace? Completely ignoring everything else being discussed at all? Yeah Grey you are scum | ||
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On June 11 2012 11:23 chaoser wrote: Brownbear specifically says "so, let's spark some real discussion. chaoser, what do you have against ace this game. question mark goes here." You yourself JUST said you were "a little bit suspicious" of him but now he "might be a bored townie"? Your reasoning is shitty, but I still think greymist is still scum so let's agree to disagree on how shitty your reasoning is cause I don't want to shit up the thread anymore and I know your tendency to spam like no tomorrow. Could you stop arguing with me please? Yes, I may have missed BB's post when I tried to analyze Grey. Hell, he could be scum as well, along with Grey (or SK, whatever). The fact that I missed it doesn't mean shit on what I wrote about Grey. I don't need to lynch both scum today, one suffices (and is in fact the only thing I can do...you know....you can't double-lynch and shit). Yes the "he might be a bored townie" part may have been an exaggeration. Water under the bridge, the enemy of my enemy is my friend (unless you are SK, in which case the enemy of the enemy of the friend of my enemy which is still the enemy of my enemy is my friend). On June 11 2012 11:31 GreYMisT wrote: Wiggles has posted more content then ace. My suspicion is still there, but Ace is more concerning for me. I'll probably be lynched today regardless of what I say due to mob mentality, gonzaw turning everything I say around into a scum agenda, and fear of lynching the big players. What I'm going to do is try to get us on the right track so we have somewhere to move tomorrow. Gonzaw, while I do think your reasoning consists mainly of over eagerness, I think you're town for the moment. With that in mind give me reasons not to vote Ace, aside from "grey is a better target" Ehmm...everybody except me in this game is a "big player". If had fear of lynching a big player then I'd have to vote for myself. Grey, there has been thorough discussion about: -VE -Radfield And you completely ignored both. You were also asked to make reads with more content (on Wiggles for instance), and you didn't. Instead you ignored everything and created more chaos by adding a guy (that you failed to acknowledged at all before) to the lynch candidate mix for shitty reasons. No, Ace is barely trying this game, and he's acting just like in Liar Game; just fooling around. If he were scum he'd be more manipulative by now, instead of "yeah RNG lynch k koo". The great thing is that if he's scum he wouldn't do that, and that's true (unless someone posts a counter-example). Not only that, I'm sure you know that as well, considering you've been interacting with Ace way longer than I have, which is why your vote was scummy as shit. | ||
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I'm sure you don't even know who Ace is. Is he one of those noobs that played the Newbie Games these past few games? I think he is. | ||
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I'm still waiting for your contributions and "analysis" I'll need to see more from a majority of the playerlist before I can make more informed decisions. I don't want you to make a decision, I want you to prove to us that you are town. | ||
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(Bam! ) | ||
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Unless you want me to   | ||
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Okay then, I'll ask you some questions then (although I was hoping you'd post your opinion on them without being asked to): What are your thoughts on the current discussion? Do you agree with Hesmyrr's case on VE (how the hell did you miss it?) ? Do you agree with VE's and MZ's "case" against Radfield (again how the hell did you miss it?) ? Do you have a more thorough analysis of Wiggles' play? What about the things we've been mentioning about him? Do you agree with them or not? Why or why not? Why exactly do you think Ace is more suspicious than say...BrownBear? Do you think this would fit Ace's scum play? Do you think he's just trolling or something as scum (unlike his "normal" scum play?) ? Considering Ace played almost exactly like this on Liar Game (and he was town), what would you say about it? Would you still find him suspicious? If you still think he's scum in base of all these, then make a more thorough explanation.. If you are town, you already have lots of opinions...just post them (it shouldn't be too hard...you already own said opinions, you don't have to fake them or anything). | ||
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gonzaw
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Gandalf the Greymist wrote: Now, back to the present. Would scum GreYMisT vote Ace? out of the blue? please, give me credit. I already stated suspicion of wiggles, as you so pointed out. in fact, others have as well. It would make much more sense for me to vote wiggles. Yes, i could be doing this as a massive scheme, but would it be worth the risk? probably not. And please don't bring up those "Why would I do X? If I was scum it would be absurd for me to do X" arguments. There have been a lot of scum in previous games of mine (VE and Toad in LI, Risen in LIII) that have done "absurd" things and used them to try and convince people they were town. So just....stop, I won't take them into account, specially if you immediately mention your towniness because of them.. | ||
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On June 11 2012 12:58 GreYMisT wrote: Surely you didnt read the 2 samples I provided, or reread the entire thread in that short amount of time. I saw the case on VE, but i was a bit busy being tunneled. Basically my play comes down to me wanting to not spew gibberish all over the thread. I like to be a bit more sure about what I say. In the past I have even gotten in trouble as town, and derailed discussion for a full day because I changed my mind on a vote once. But I'm getting off topic, just wanted you to know my opinion on that. As far as the case on VE, I feel as though it is pretty well thought out. If you read a page before it, I actually comment on the post that the case is largely based on. Overall I feel that it is not a good enough reason to condemn someone at the moment. You tell me to not say "If i were scum I would definatly not do X" but that is your soft defense of Ace right there. You say that Ace would definatly not be playing like he is right now if he were scum. In my eyes he is a player who was clearly in the thread, but chose not to comment on anything. Nothing more. *sigh* Why don't you stop worrying about "spewing gibbreish all over the thread" and just answer the questions and contribute? Seriously, if I was town and I knew I was a possibly misslynch then I would give two shits about "trying to play correctly" and I'd try to convince people I'm town, because as much as "I don't want town to get into trouble", they would certainly get into one if they misslynched me. That would be the case if answering those questions, providing more reasoning behind your votes/reads, and commenting on what's happening in the thread was "spewing gibberish"....which is not.....it's actually the opposite. So you say that you want us to take a step back to analyse you and ask you questions, but when we do you get all defensive on our asses and do shit all? What kind of town plead is that? You tell me to not say "If i were scum I would definatly not do X" but that is your soft defense of Ace right there. You say that Ace would definatly not be playing like he is right now if he were scum No, they are completely different things. Ace is not doing anything disruptive, and because of the appliance of meta it means he's likely town. There's nothing "absurd" there. Not only that, but he didn't even use it to "confirm" his towniness. Ace never said "Hey guys see how I'm not causing chaos nor creating suspicion among yourselves? Do you see it? Yes that means I'm confirmed town okay bye". However, you certainly did (that Ace bit was a hyperbole so don't nit-pick). | ||
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gonzaw
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This is pointless. There is a chance you are just stubborn town, so if you are don't fuck this up Greymist. I'll follow chaoser's advice and stop cloggin up the thread harrassing you. I'm still waiting for Radfield, Wiggles and Palmar to post their thoughts about this whole thing. On June 11 2012 13:14 GreYMisT wrote: he doesn't need to, you are doing it for him. Anyway, done with you for now. You keep saying "Prove your towniness" but accuse me of getting defensive. Speaking of doing shit all I would like you to answer the questions you posed to me in your most recent accusation. We'll talk later I'd tell you to just read the thread, but I'm being nice: Okay Grey, do know that I don't have a "tunneling vendetta" against you or anything, you just seem to completely avoid the issues being brought on against you (lack of reads/analysis, creating suspicions, being "neutral", etc) and divert attention. Okay then, I'll ask you some questions then (although I was hoping you'd post your opinion on them without being asked to): What are your thoughts on the current discussion? Do you agree with Hesmyrr's case on VE (how the hell did you miss it? ) ? Do you agree with VE's and MZ's "case" against Radfield (again how the hell did you miss it?) ? Do you have a more thorough analysis of Wiggles' play? What about the things we've been mentioning about him? Do you agree with them or not? Why or why not? Why exactly do you think Ace is more suspicious than say...BrownBear? Do you think this would fit Ace's scum play? Do you think he's just trolling or something as scum (unlike his "normal" scum play?) ? Considering Ace played almost exactly like this on Liar Game (and he was town), what would you say about it? Would you still find him suspicious? If you still think he's scum in base of all these, then make a more thorough explanation.. If you are town, you already have lots of opinions...just post them (it shouldn't be too hard...you already own said opinions, you don't have to fake them or anything). | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 12 2012 01:08 GreYMisT wrote: I voted Ace in an attempt to study different reactions. The inactivity of a few players really hasn't helped a lot with this plan, but I have gathered a bit: Gonzaw: questions why I would vote for Ace and not other inactive players. I don't think gonzaw is scum Chaoser: Uses my vote as part of his justification to jump onto me after calling Gonzaw's case bad. i can see both town and mafia reasons for doing this. I'm regarding this reaction as a null. Ace: No real reaction other than asking me some questions. As far as the current, active, players. I agree with Palmar in lynching MZ. I was initially suspicous of him with my post here: But did not follow up on it because I thought he might be using just really bad logic. I like Palmar's argument regarding him though, So i'd be willing to lynch him today. Also chaoser, you never answered my question. who aside from me do you want to lynch? *sigh* LAL anyone? I won't support a MZ lynch today, if we still have Greymist, Wiggles and maybe BrownBear still around. I reread his filter and I don't find him as townie as I thought, but I don't want a bandwagon to form on him now, specially if nobody post why they wouldn't lynch Greymist or Wiggles instead @Palmar: So, do you plan on commenting on this shit we've been doing these past few days or will you just try to live in your own little world up there? Radfield is still disappeared...interesting. | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 12 2012 02:49 GreYMisT wrote: I should have know that I should have said "I'm going to vote Ace just to see what others will do" along with my vote. Greymist, I want you to know that I actually think you are town. I started this "case" and "tunneling" of you to see how VE would react, and get a good read out of him. He reacted the opposite of what I'd expect him to react as town, so that confirms you as town and VE as scum Plus VE scumslipped and said he was Vanilla Townie without the owny in the end. So yeah you are confirmed town and VE is scum, let's lynch VE.... ......so, can you see how that doesn't help town at all, specially if you are being suspected yourself? | ||
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On June 12 2012 03:44 VisceraEyes wrote: Wait, so you seriously think I'm scum based on my reaction to your retarded "scumslip" post? My role PM doesn't even SAY ANYTHING about townie/y - my claim was a joke based on the fact that I've been claiming early the last few games. ##Vote: MZ I enjoy these little talks guys. It was sarcasm (lol I can't believe you guys keep falling for it). On June 12 2012 03:47 Palmar wrote: What is it that I should comment on? Can you stop being an asshole and acting as if I'm not playing the game wtf is this shit, I've commented on just about everyone and everything in the game, why do people keep saying I'm not playing. fuck off. You didn't post any thoughts about Greymist nor Wiggles, and the discussion pertaining those 2, for instance @Meapak: I don't see you doing shit, I may end up supporting your lynch after all. All these past few posts of you have been you bickering against Palmar and other people and not contributing at all. | ||
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On June 12 2012 04:16 GreYMisT wrote: You know the majority of sarcasm is tone of voice. In a game where we need to take what everyone is saying at close to face value these sarcasm posts really only serve to muddy the thread. I am more convinced that MZ needs to be lynched today. instead of focusing in on the lynch he instead is attacking the credibility of otheres (Palmar/VE) It was obvious it was sarcasm as soon as I mentioned the "Vanilla Towny" thing...which is why I did it. I'd really like you to link those games you've played before (Student mafia was it? Or something) And I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...mainly because you are active, and trying to do shit...even if that shit is absolutely nothing at all (and because nobody is pushing you right now and doing so would most likely mean me tunneling you and shitting the thread up). Who would like a Wiggles or a BrownBear lynch? | ||
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On June 11 2012 14:30 BrownBear wrote: These two posts are enough for me to throw a preliminary vote on Palmar. I don't understand why he is witholding the information of why he exactly thinks RNG is giving town a better chance, and I in fact disagree with him for reasons stated above. Caveat, of course, is I haven't fully read past page 8, and have skimmed the rest due to time constraints so this may change. ##Vote: Palmar Internets are down, posting from a friend's house. They should be fixed tomorrow so I can post more then. On the bright side, new keyboard! On June 12 2012 05:06 BrownBear on Voting Thread wrote: ohshit this exists. ##Vote: Palmar So, you only read up to page 8 and voted Palmar based on that stupid reason (that he hid information about the RNG). So..I assume that now you've read the rest of the thread....yet you still vote Palmar? | ||
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On June 12 2012 05:10 BrownBear wrote: I'm in the middle of posting something larger. Jesus christ you guys move fast. Do it quickly, in 15 minutes I'm leaving for uni and I think I'll be back after the deadline (if it's in 3 hours). Okay, this MZ lynch had no resistance at all, and I'm wary of that. Grey is more active, and well, he's not doing shit but it seems he's doing that on purpose, and I've read part of his Election filter and apparently it's his thing. I'll wait until BB says what he has to say. If what he says is not satisfactory I'll vote him, if not I'll vote Wiggles. Everybody seems to find Wiggles suspicious but nobody seems to do anything about it. Like I've seen these people find Wiggles suspicious: -Me -VE -Grey -chaoser (I think) And some others if I recall correctly; yet he's getting away with it. I think Wiggles would be a better lynch than MZ I want more feedback about this, at this point I doubt MZ will flip scum (maybe he could flip SK, but I think it's kind of unlikely as well). | ||
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gonzaw
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Why do you find Palmar suspicious because of some stupid RNG thing? Why don't you look at the cases that have been brought up in the thread? You were the one that wanted to "spark discussion", yet now you are dampering it by continuing to argue about some useless RNG thing I'll change my vote to you until then: ##Unvote: Greymist ##Vote: BrownBear | ||
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When I asked him for his thoughts about Grey, Wiggles, Palmar, etc, he said "It's too early to talk about this"...but now that it is not in fact "too early to talk about this" he's not here. Fuck. | ||
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On June 12 2012 05:15 Palmar wrote: Wiggles said he was afk. I don't condone shit like that (I think it's cheating to explain your in-game actions with out of game actions), lynching him would basically be a lurker lynch. If we had nothing better, then sure. I think you're more likely to be scum than Greymist gonz, and thus I don't want to lynch greymist right now. Wiggles has posted some things that were scummy (in my opinion). Check my filter for them, or just check his filter. Do you have any specific thoughts on that behaviour of his? Or do you think it's irrelevant. Do you think I'm scum, or just that I'm more likely to be scum than greymist? (you can think both of us are town in the 2nd case). What do you think of BrownBear? Would you be willing to lynch him now? | ||
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It seems you are doing this on purpose. Everybody, I'd want you to switch your vote to BrownBear. His first posts were him discussing random fluff about the RNG deal; but again everybody did this. Then he posted this: On June 11 2012 03:39 BrownBear wrote: and radfield, who ninja'd me to a certain extent. so, let's spark some real discussion. chaoser, what do you have against ace this game. question mark goes here. He wanted to "spark some real discussion", yet he's been absent since then. Not only that, he wants to "spark some real discussion", yet now that he's active and real discussion did take place, he doesn't care about it and just dwells back on the RNG thing, failing to comment on anything else. Not only that, his FoS on Palmar is stupid as fuck. You don't base your D1 vote on someone's opinion on RNG/policy lynches/etc, specially if you have millions of things to take into account about said player, like Palmar's FoS and vote on MZ for instance. Yet BB completely fails to acknowledge Palmar's behaviour at all and just focuses on Palmar "withholding information about the benefits of RNG". Seriously? Again, he fails to comment on the Greymist or MZ issue at all; he only said that he wouldn't vote MZ because he agrees with me that the MZ lynch has no resistance at all. However he doesn't comment on it at all. Again, take notice how now he disappeared again. Please lynch him, at least if you guys don't want to lynch Wiggles, I prefer him getting lynched over Meapak Lynch BrownBear please Okay I'm leaving | ||
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...but well if he's town he'll get killed on N1 and if he lives after D2 he's automatically scum, right? (that's how Radfield works...right? | ||
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K koo (got back earlier from uni, missed a class ) | ||
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Greymist was the only one that said something, the rest of you just completely ignored me | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On June 12 2012 05:33 BrownBear wrote: You see, I'm not dampering discussion. I'm pointing out that Palmar is. I'm not sure why you don't understand this. Let me throw up a few examples. Post contributes nothing. Great, MZ "failed" by agreeing with Greymist? How about you explain some more exactly why and how he failed? How about you provide a logical, well constructed argument about why Greymist and MZ are "wrong" rather than just say "welp, they don't agree with me, they fail, LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH". So instead of complaining about it, why don't you change it bro? "Thick" is not an accusation many would say about Radfield, particularly players who have actually played with him. There's a reason scum target him early on rather than let him play entire games. I think he's just as confused as I am - he wants to know your reasoning for supporting RNGs. I do too. Let's hear them? This is the response of someone who's actually worried that they look like they aren't playing. If Palmar were playing and were secure in this fact, why wouldn't he just link to a bunch of his earlier posts where he was playing and contributing? That would be a much more airtight defense than a simple "screw you". Also, Palmar's too smart to mistake the volume of posts he's posted for actual, meaningful contribution. He's posted like 25 times: I count maybe 2 or 3 of those that are actually useful to town. This is a classic scum tactic (I used it in Mafia XXX, if you're curious) where volume makes a player look active, while clever words or subtle rehashes of earlier topics disguise the fact that none of the posts have much meaningful substance to them. Direct attack on me and Ace aside, isn't the point of mafia to build cases on people? A weak case is still a case, saying it isn't is stifling town discussion. If you think a case is weak, rather than dismiss it out of hand, you should maybe point out the weaknesses in it or the holes in logic. This builds town cohesion and stronger cases. Direct attack against another town player (gonzaw) trying to shut down a valid point: Palmar ISN'T PLAYING THIS GAME. He's trying to appear that he is, and he's trying to tie up town conversations he doesn't like by directly flaming the people making them, but he is not contributing anything meaningful of his own. Now, some people may say "oh, that's how Palmar plays lol" but that shouldn't be acceptable. Like I said earlier - his behavior is a cancer to the town. We need to either cut it out or ignore it. How do you know I'm town? BrownBear, you say Palmar's behaviour is "cancerous to town". Yeah it may be. However, do you think he's scum or not? I don't think I remember you explicitly saying you thought Palmar was scum/SK. | ||
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On June 12 2012 07:30 GreYMisT wrote: Ok caught up, and have a few things. I Don't like the case on Palmar right now. And the case on BrownBear by Gonzaw amounts to him being abscent, absent BB said he would be due to no internet. With Wiggles gone due to exams or something (hasnt been on steam either so he really has been gone) I still feel my lynch today rests with MZ. I know your vote on Ace was "phony"....but do you actually think he's town for not including him in that list of lynch candidates you did? | ||
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On June 12 2012 08:52 BrownBear wrote: I never did. I'm starting to think he's just BM-style town - annoying, misleading, and should be ignored. However, a couple intentionally misleading things he's done still give me pause. But I'm much less convinced he's definitely red now that I'm less angry at him. So why did you spend 100% of your time attacking him instead of actually finding scum to lynch?...... On June 12 2012 08:53 BrownBear wrote: And I don't know for sure you're town. I have a leaning green read on you. But why are YOU the one casting suspicion on your own green claim? What? How am I casting suspicion on me? And why would you care? I am town, you said I was town. Therefore your assertion was correct. My question: was how did you know that? *pstt* *pstt* I was trying to figure out if you just scumslipped or if it was a simple mistake | ||
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Does any of you have an idea who the SK might be? And is there any subtle difference in scum behaviour and SK behaviour? (without taking interactions with scumbuddies into account) | ||
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I was under the impression he wouldn't try to be too "helpful" because he wouldn't want to bite a bullet from scum, and have them know his identity (and have 1 less night kill that could have helped him achieve his win-condition faster). Then again he might try to pull a VE from Storm, try to fuck up all scum and not even mind scum shooting him and knowing who he is (or Palmar in Arkham Asylum). I'm still waiting for your answer Grey. I've "turned off my confirmation bias" to give you another chance and the benefit of the doubt, don't make me regret that decision. | ||
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gonzaw
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Both Palmar and Grey had 2 votes (before I voted BB) if I recall correctly, and MZ only had like 3 votes at a time (which is not a "oh oh he's definitely the lynch today" amount) @Wiggles: I was suspicious of Palmar initially because of him trying to shift attention towards MZ when I presented my Grey case. However after seeing him play I see he's playing with confidence and arrogance. I know he can play pretty good as scum, like in Liar Game, so I'm not crossing him as town yet, but I don't think lynching him right now (or yesterday) is a good idea. Wiggles you have a lot to contribute since you've been missing, specially about the cases on Grey, VE and Radfield that were posted last day | ||
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On June 12 2012 11:01 Mr. Wiggles wrote: I said it was between Palmar and MZ because it looked like it ended up as 4-3, and then everyone else having only 1 vote on them. I read through pretty quickly, so I might not have paid enough attention to how the vote developed. I just saw three people single-voted and went through their filters to see what I thought and look for people avoiding being responsible for the lynch or not. I have a bunch of stuff to catch up on, so would you mind linking me to the specific cases? I know you made the greymist one, and hesmyrr made the VE one, who started the one on VE again? You answered your own question. Sorry I'm too lazy right now to reread the thread looking for them. But chaoser and I posted about Greymist Hesmyrr posted about VE VE and MZ posted about Radfield Just check their filters (and of course read the thread in it's completion) | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 12 2012 11:33 BrownBear wrote: Still figuring that one out. I will post when I have a clearer picture. There isn't really a time crunch at the moment, so I hope you don't mind if I take my time during the night cycle and read carefully. You don't go lurking on me Fine, you have all the time in the world (until night ends) to thoroughly reread the thread and filters to figure out what's going on, but you can still chime in on discussions and post your "temporal" thoughts to show you are active and care about the game. I still wonder why you didn't even try to find scum yesterday. So you read the thread, found out Palmar was a "nuisance and cancer to town" and decided to tunnel him for the rest of the day, all the while you ignored everything else being discussed...which you know...was about actually trying to catch scum | ||
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I don't like that post of yours Wiggles, I dunno...seems your reasons for thinking chaoser is scum are kind of weak. But well, if I'm still alive on D2 I'll reanalyze the thread, hey! Maybe you are right about chaoser who knows? | ||
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On June 13 2012 03:30 Mr. Wiggles wrote: What about them are weak? If you'd like me to explain in more detail or go over something in a different way I can. Just saying they're weak doesn't really help me if you don't think he's scum or the case is bad. On June 13 2012 02:31 Mr. Wiggles wrote: ... Between MZ and Palmar, I would have truthfully voted for MZ. Out of other people, I would have voted Chaoser. The reasons for this are that he's done about three things that make him look off to me. First, he did that weird thing with the RNG. I have no idea how that was supposed to work though, because RNG doesn't work with just someone posting a number and saying that's who we're lynching. But, after not enough people supported him, and I called him out on it, he says that it was for pressure and to see how Ace reacted. That sounds silly though, because the pressure would always be weak, and Ace didn't back off RNG but Chaoser still pushed him for it. Like I said, false pressure. This is inherently weak because it relates to the RNG bits from earlier on. chaoser could have easily done that as town or scum. Second, I don't understand his initial case on Grey at all. I don't know what he means by "you show no suspicion to the usage of terms", but I guess he's saying that he's not suspicious of different names and that makes him scummy? But this is an iGrok game. I lost Sleeper Cell I because I lynched a guy for having a green bolded name when no one else did. I learned my lesson, and I know iGrok has done similar things in lots of his games since then with regards to flavour and role name, because flavour hunting is just stupid. So, it makes sense for GreY not to necessarily question that they have different names, which makes Chaoser's accusation weird and off-base. This seems weak as well. You find chaoser suspicious because he found Grey's reaction to my "joke" suspicious, only based on a game you (but not chaoser) played (and he would have no way to know that). Then he calls out GreY for wanting to lynch me and not MZ. The thing is though, there's nothing stopping GreY from thinking I made a bad post even if MZ made a worse post, so that's not really a valid for saying he's scum. Just because something is worse than something else doesn't mean that other thing can't still be bad (On a side note, I don't think my post was bad, this is from GreY's PoV :p). So again, I don't like Chaoser's reasoning for voting GreY. This may be true or not, but doesn't seem too strong either. Third, Chaoser didn't change his vote from GreY to MZ. There wasn't enough support for the GreY lynch it seemed, and the votes between Palmar and MZ were very close. Chaoser said he'd prefer an MZ lynch after a GreY lynch, and that he thought Palmar was playing well. However, he never ended up changing his vote to ensure someone he thought was scummy would get lynched instead of someone he thought was playing well. That stinks. Well..MZ did flip town. chaoser not voting someone that flipped town would be better considering the circumstances. I do find that a little bit odd, but he said he prefered a Grey lynch rather than a MZ one, and I was voting Grey at that time as well (while MZ only had like 3 votes on him), so at that time him keeping his vote on Grey isn't alignment telling. Yes, him not changing his vote to MZ later seems weird, because he said MZ was his 2nd lynch. But all in all your reasons for thinking chaoser is scum seem weak to me. What about his interactions with other players? What about his behaviour and aggressiveness? Do you think he's scum because of them as well? But meh. | ||
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Also because I'm still having doubts about Grey :/ | ||
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Can't believe he acts "retarded" (figure of speech) each game as town yet gets shot on N1. Okay, like I promised I'll try to reread the thread and reanalyze my reads. For now I still think Wiggles and BB are suspicious, and Radfield so so. | ||
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On June 13 2012 10:49 Palmar wrote: damn, I was all ready to lynch ace, guess I'll have to lynch intelligently now. ##Vote gonzaw I think you're scum bro, what do you think about that? also I told you, radfield is doubleconfirmed town. I think you are being an arrogant prick ...or you are just being normal Palmar. If you think I'm scum for some specific reason then post it, if not I'm ignoring you. | ||
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gonzaw
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I don't like how you are just going around asking people questions and creating doubt on them. Like, you quote Hesmyrr and cast doubt on him, but then you quote chaoser and cast doubt on him. What's your motivation for that? Do you really think any of them can be scum or are you just trying to blend in? What are your suspicions right now? (before you "go back and reread carefully" and not show up for 10 hours, just tell me what you think right now) | ||
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Well, the "casting doubt" thing may not correspond to your chaoser post, but the "blend in" part does | ||
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gonzaw
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Damn this game is deserted, before the game started I would have expected a war or something going on by now, with cases being thrown and posts being dissected and people shouting "OBJECTION!!" and then coming up with a new case that finally catches the right scum or something. Clearly I was expecting too much from it | ||
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(I think it will be the 1st time I'll ever reread a thread since it's beginning and not just read filters, I'm so excited!) Up to page 11, and I already have new info and revelations :O :O :O This is fun. | ||
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On June 12 2012 11:33 BrownBear wrote: Still figuring that one out. I will post when I have a clearer picture. There isn't really a time crunch at the moment, so I hope you don't mind if I take my time during the night cycle and read carefully. BrownBear, before doing anything....do you have the "clearer picture" yet? You promised to "take your time during the night cycle and read carefully"...I assumed you had done that in the night cycle, right? What did you conclude by then? | ||
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gonzaw
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Yeah I recommend you guys doing it. Before doing it I was suspicious of some people, but after reading it I remember why I thought they were town in the first place and reassures me that they are town (or at least very good SK). It also made me reconsider my stance on BrownBear. When I started reading the thread, I started thinking BB was scum. Hell I even have a case made against him. Like, up until he made his 1st case against Palmar I already had a case made against him and thought he was scum. ...however, he has done some things that made me doubt it. For instance, his rage and frustration against Palmar seemed kind of genuine at points; some of his posts and answers (to one of my SK questions and stuff for instance) seemed genuine as well and he seemed to post without hesitation or fear by that point. The tone of his posts from that point onward made me rethink my stance on him as well. Another thing that made me very wary was him backing off Palmar. I couldn't see any scum motivation for him to do that. Like, he already had his target set if he was scum...why back off by saying he was angry at him and now Palmar doesn't seem scummy enough? I couldn't find scum motivation for that, which again dishearted me since I had figured out he was scum >_> I'll keep an eye out for him, but those things I read later in the thread made me doubt my read on him. However, I found an obvious scum I can't believe we (or at least I) missed earlier: Hesmyrr In my next post I'll say why I think we should lynch him today. I still find Wiggles suspicious, but I'm more confident in my Hesmyrr read right now, and to be honest, after Wiggles play on Liar Game, I don't really know if this is his town play or scum play. I'd be willing to bet he's scum (or SK), but I don't want to divide town with too much discussions and lynch candidates so I'll try to focus on Hesmyrr. | ||
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First of all, he's been absent almost all game. The first time he showed up was in freaking page 10. On June 11 2012 07:58 Hesmyrr wrote: RNG is very bad. I actually think the strategy do not even fit profile for townie; one signs up for a game in order to find a scum, not let some uncontrollable factor dictate the game for them. Moreover, it is even worse for this setup because there are only two scums (I do not count Iri Flina b/c she and mafia don't know others identity thus cannot influence the town to save each other). Therefore when someone genuinely discuss RNG it is anti-town move. Of course, I put off some players as null tells because there are townie justifications for doing so like misguided attempt to promote discussion, or a bait. Still there are some interesting suspects to be had, the strongest one being VisceraEyes. He have several scummy behaviour, the most blatant one being his lack of concrete opinion about RNG. This post is terrible, I can't even tell whether he supports or hates RNG. It looks like VE favours RNG plan since he says "the chances aren't bad for hitting scum randomly", but also tries to weaken the statement with his last sentence and usage of "in theory". But then he agrees with BrownBear that he've "never liked the idea...it always stinks of scum" thereafter. Okay, I could have misunderstood the previous post. Until when he pops in next he is in support of Palmar's RNG website! What happened? Then he wrote this which was exactly what I was waiting for since the RNG debate started. I actually waited a bit before posting to see what opinions others had. What I specifically wanted to look for was the post that encouraged discussion about way to perform RNG, because frankly it is nothing but a dead-end a.k.a. waste of time. The mafia would want to keep the town discuss about RNG as much as possible. Last paragraph of VisceraEyes tries to do that exactly. Note that even as a suggestion it makes little sense; like GreYMisT pointed it out, the suggestion negates out the only benefit RNG vote offers compared to actual analysis- he should know that, having said in his own words, "In theory, removing scum's ability to influence the lynch by agreeing as a town to lynch by RNG". Can I find any townie motivation for his behaviour up til now? Hell no. ##Vote: VisceraEyes Everyone should note that same attempt to misdirect focus of town discussion has been made by GreYMisT two times. I actually haven't read the case on him yet but I will be keeping very close eye on him. As a side note, chaoser seem pretty adamant on using RNG vote. Can anyone tell me if he held similar position in previous game? This is a bad case on VE in my opinion. Why? Because it only takes the RNG bits into account. Like I said, discussion about the RNG bit is not alignment telling, specially in the context of the thread (everybody was talking about it). More over, VE's stance on RNG wasn't scummy, because VE seemed to genuinely try to contribute in that manner with his thoughts, even if they were wrong or "stupid" or "wishy-washy": That's his sole reason for voting VE, yet he doesn't take anything about his most recent behaviour into account. Does he think VE's attitude makes him scum? I don't know Does he think VE wanting Radfield dead makes him scum? I don't know He just focuses on the RNG deal (which is not alignment telling of VE) and nothing else. That raises a red flag for me The's also wishy-washy about Grey and says he'll "be keeping very close eye on him", and says he didn't actually read the case on him... He basically never mentions Grey again, nor the case against him. Nothing. Anyways, at least he "sparked some discussion" though, and he could have easily reread the thread or something to change his mind, or discuss it with other people, etc. Except he goes lurking for 9 freaking pages. On page 19 he posts: On June 12 2012 05:48 Hesmyrr wrote: Excuse me, could you clarify what you have meant by This is an absolute joke of a post. The first thing he thought of posting after his long absence was a pointless question. He doesn't explain why he was absent, he doesn't explain if he changed his mind about VE or not (if he was legitimately absent). He doesn't explain what his new thoughts and opinions are, or if he even cares about forming them (like the usual "I'm gonna read the thread now to figure out what's going on" posts). Nothing, just some garbage post that the only purpose it makes it make it seem Hesmyrr is part of the discussion when he's now and trying to blend in. On June 12 2012 07:07 Hesmyrr wrote: I was actually waiting for you to post the analysis regarding VE, since I couldn't find concrete argument to merit analysis post yet. Currently I find MZ lynch to be better than that of Palmar but I am not going to get stuck on black-white thinking; the fact that GreYMisT+VE have voted him is cause for concern which is why I am reserving my judgment until the last moment. Personally the interactions happened between VisceraEyes and you are making me extremely wary. He only posted this when called out. It's just a defensive post to somewhat explain why he didn't follow through with his case on VE. He also says "I was actually waiting for you to post the analysis regarding VE, since I couldn't find concrete argument to merit analysis post yet" How was he expecting to do that? By lurking the game away until Radfield posted his thoughts on VE? Why didn't he actively try to get Radfield's thoughts on VE? (you know, with a simple question perhaps?) Why didn't he actually follow up on his case on VE, or reanalyze him and see if he still finds him scummy? He barely mentions MZ and Palmar, without giving any opinion on them. He finds Grey and VE suspicious (them voting MZ is a "cause of concern") but he never states why. Is it because of that post he made 9 pages back? Does he still find Grey suspicious because of that small reason that Grey was diverting attention or something? He doesn't say, and doesn't care. On June 12 2012 07:12 Hesmyrr wrote: Oh also if someone is going to die today it's either going to be VisceraEyes or Meapak_Ziphh. With Radfield around and what I have seen of him so far I'll be shocked if he votes for Palmar. Useless post to just make a summary of what's happening or will happen. Yet he doesn't even try to form an opinion on it. I don't think he ever said what he thought of MZ himself, or even discussed about the lynch On June 12 2012 07:33 Hesmyrr wrote: I actually wanted to let the conversation play out longer and see if it further justifies my doubts, but since I already wrote about VisceraEyes - Radfield connection I'll try my best to explain why I feel bad about these two, which started from here. His first three paragraphs reveal he feels wish-washy about MZ and I found it suspect how he was being conservative with his vote even at that situation, not voting for his current biggest scum-read. The tone of post is such that it makes him open for voting both, like Radfield will post his case and will let himself be "persuaded" by VisceraEyes so I wanted to gauge strength of the argument. Then VisceraEyes started picking up bunch of freebie townie points by talking about it with him. I guess I just didn't see reason Radfield would refrain posting his analysis at this critical juncture. He did fix most of the problems I had with him at time of this posting so I'll see how his argument turns out and determine whether to stick with VE depending on situation. I do have to leave for moment but I will be back in order to change my vote if needed. He comes up with a random accusation about Rad+VE, yet actually he doesn't seem to make any conclusion whatsoever. Does he really think Rad and VE are scumbuddies? Or just VE? Or not? Does he think any of them are scum? He talks about how Rad is wishy-washy about MZ....but what does he think about MZ? He doesn't say. This post is filler that just tried to cast doubt on Rad (or VE) and just so he had something to post, failed to come to any conclusion and failed to even address anything that has been happening in the thread at all. Also notice how he says things like "I was waiting for you (rad) to make an analysis" or "I actually wanted to let the conversation play out longer". He's giving excuses on why he hasn't posted yet. He's saying he hasn't posted yet because he's analyzing everything and waiting for the right people to do the right things by their own; yet again he gains no conclusions from it and doesn't do anything to fix it later. I'll ignore his next post since again the same things repeat again and again Of course, he's been absent ever since, and failed to contribute anything at all since his VE "case" freaking 12 pages ago. ##Vote: Hesmyrr | ||
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gonzaw
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Nothing, just some garbage post that the only purpose it makes it make it seem Hesmyrr is part of the discussion when he's not and trying to blend in. | ||
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He was one of those that I was suspicious from at first, but after reading through the thread I stopped being suspicious any longer. I think he's town mostly because of his activity when he's around, the way he seems to care what's going on, how he pressures people, ask them questions, and just generally caring what happens to town (the opposite of what Hesmyrr has done). I doubt he's scum because of that, but I'm not as sure of him as of chaoser or you being town for instance. Yet I don't want him lynched for now, not before Hesmyrr and Wiggles. | ||
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And the fact that if he was town, there would basically be no drawbacks for scum to shoot him instead of Ace <_< And the fact that every time Ace is shot as town on N1 is because he's making sense or playing well (like in Liar Game), and he could have been on to something by voting Rad today >_> Hmm, I wonder how much deep we can read into the night actions. | ||
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I mean, he doesn't have KP basically (I'm sure he'll save his only KP until end-game, like scum did in the Liar Game), so he's basically harmless to us right now. Also he can buffer scum's hits at night. | ||
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I'd leave him be for today though. | ||
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On June 13 2012 17:16 BrownBear wrote: damn gonzaw. I'm impressed. Also I'm glad you reread my posts and came to a better conclusion I can still post the "halfway-there" case I have of you if you want | ||
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On June 13 2012 17:20 BrownBear wrote: Actually, I'm curious. What have you seen from me that appears scummy? Your stance on the RNG bit seemed too "safe". You just spouted "pro-town" stuff (that RNG is bad, that policy lynching Ace is bad), but didn't actually take place in the discussion, or tried another alternative to it (at least until your "spark discussion" post). Then your vote on Palmar only based on the RNG bit, but not his overall behaviour (and it seemed you were rushing to vote, like you were desperately wanting to avoid getting modkilled or something). Then you shitting on Palmar based on his explanation for the RNG bit, but you never addressing things that were happening in the thread by then. You apologizing for not being active You saying you'd spend the night reading the thread and come to a conclusion but once the night ended you never did. (yes, I reread the part about you not having an internet connection between your "spark" post and your later ones, my bad for not reading carefully >_> ) Meh, I could actually post the case but it would be pointless, and only clutter, so I'll just save it for when I change my mind about you | ||
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Which games was Radfield scum in? Arkham Asylum? Anyone else? Yes, I have to agree that his interaction with Ace before he was shot seemed odd, but like I said I thought his behaviour was town-like in late-D1 and early-N1. I guess it could still mean he was SK though (although if he was him going against Ace and Ace dying are unrelated...unless he shot Ace as SK and scum shot him/didn't shoot) On June 13 2012 17:34 BrownBear wrote: Regarding the whole "you're taking too long to come to a conclusion" thing, we still have something like 36 hours before the deadline. I think we have time. However, question: considering that barely half the game has posted this cycle, why are you continuing to point out my tardiness? It's what I was asking you about earlier. You said you'd have a "clearer picture" after spending the night reading. That's a promise you made, and a promise you broke. Not only that, but it's a "broken promise" scum love to make, they say "I'll spend this whole night/day rereading and then I'll come up with something" and then they just lurk away until they are called out. | ||
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On June 13 2012 17:45 VisceraEyes wrote: Gonzaw I want you, someone who isn't Radfield but thinks Radfield is town, to go point to where you think Radfield is doing a good job of analyzing the game and coming to logical conclusions about the gamestate and deciding who he believes is scum please. Also, please point out any instances where Radfield "applies pressure" to someone in the game, to try and get a read of them. And finally, if you could highlight any points where you feel he's doing a splendid job of establishing his townieness to the class, that would just be super fantastic. Okay. I'll go through the effort mostly because I want Hesmyrr lynched, and hopefully I can convince you to follow that lead instead of Radfield (I'll spoiler it though so it doesn't clog up too much) + Show Spoiler [Why I think Rad is town] + On June 10 2012 08:23 Radfield wrote: Hizzah! No setup to talk about! No roles to direct! Nothing but cold hard calculation...! No medic and no ability to confirm townies means that every player needs to actually play, and establish themselves. No spamming, no coasting, etc. Given that, lets lynch into the players who are most difficult to find and the players with the best scum play. In this case that's ace and.... uhmmm.... well, just Ace I suppose Seems like a good policy to me! On June 10 2012 08:25 Radfield wrote: In other news we could RNG a lynch. Ace, Palmar! GOGOGO! In just his first few posts, the tone of his posts seem playful, and eager to start the game (I didn't see this tone of his post diminish later in the game either). Scum don't post like this as soon as the game starts, they are not eager to start conversation and interact with others at all, the most the day draws on the better for them. At most scum start posting at the start of D1 to just make a plan or a standard post about policy lynches, or about being active and not lurking and that regular "pro-town" stuff. VE also immediately catches him about something, and he just plays it non-chalantly with a joke. One could expect that someone already "going against him" at the beginning of the game would make him drop off that "cheerful" facade of his, but he doesn't On June 12 2012 06:15 Radfield wrote: Ace, do you actually think lynching Palmar is the best play today? So far I see very little alarming about his play, the biggest thing being his deliberate stretch on Brownbear: Other than that he looks decent. Here pressuring Ace about Palmar like I'd expect him to do as town On June 12 2012 06:31 Radfield wrote: I'm considering it, but his demeanor is very unscumlike. That being said I think he has the ability to put up excellent defenses as scum when his back is against the wall. He had me second guessing myself in PYP:Int, and I basically had a red check on him. He doesn't have anything expressly super-townie in his posts, but his overall in your face/antagonistic playstyle doesn't seem forced or fake. It seems like he doesn't really give a crap, which is a townie trait. THAT being said, some of his posts raise flags(his early posts+ the VE post), but not really enough for me to want to lynch him. I'm also realizing that it doesn't make particular sense to lynch you Day 1 either, as your town play tend to stand out, and you'll get significantly easier to read as the game goes on. It hinges on me finding another candidate though Here he's making some sense about MZ, although he is wishy-washy and does end up voting him. He also doesn't jump on the case against you and doesn't want you lynched, which was a pro-town move to make at that time. On June 12 2012 06:46 Radfield wrote: Rest assured, If you're still the scummiest player after I finish filtering, I will push you Happy You're right though, he really only been 'in your face' with Palmar, but that doesn't make it look like a show. Can you lay out for me in a clear and concise format why you think MZ is the best lynch today? Again same cheerful/playful/eager to play tone in his post from earlier On June 12 2012 06:58 Radfield wrote: Chaoser, I don't really see the Greymist case right now. I certainly don't see much wrong with his response to the Vanilla Town thing. What specifically do you see as the reasons for voting Grey? For instance, he doesn't jump on the Grey case...even though I would have fully supported him if he had done it at that point >_> On June 12 2012 07:49 Radfield wrote: I don't know why I wrote it like that. It's obviously a contradiction like 7 minutes apart and pretty much wraps up my opinion of Meapak. I still lean that it was not necessarily a straight up scummy thing to do, but it obviously has scummy elements to it. I think the honest reason is that I wanted(and want) an alternative to a MZ lynch. I don't see it happening though. I guess him wanting an alternative to a MZ lynch makes him look better (although no that much) On June 12 2012 19:17 Radfield wrote: There's the Ace we know and love. You can't shoot me though, I'm bulletproof. I like how when you are scum you find something someone has done and then just spin it as scummy like crazy. Look for an entire body of evidence.. nahh. I assume what your insinuating is that me and Palmar are scumbuddies, or that I wanted to save him for some sort of underhanded reasoning. I can assure you that if I was scum and Palmar town, I would push any lynch on him I possibly could. Palmar, like no other player on this site, correctly ID's me by Night 1 pretty much every game we have ever played. Certainly he busted me in LOTR and Arkham 2, and was on my case in Closed Casket. No way I would save him, especially when I had already given myself plenty of reason to not vote Meapak. This doesn't seem the reaction I'd expect from a scum that was already found out by Ace | ||
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On June 13 2012 17:58 VisceraEyes wrote: Also Wiggles towntold Gonzaw, back up off him. I'll leave him alive today based on what I've seen. Focus on Hes. Yes, there's another reason I backed off a Wiggles lynch. Something in his posts make me think that if Hes flips scum...Wiggles is very likely his scumbuddy (based on some interactions between both of them). I won't dwell with it until Hes flips scum though, but it's something I found interesting. | ||
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I already said I found his interaction with Ace odd, but I don't think his behaviour merits a lynch today instead of Hesmyrr, specially because I think he's likely town for those reasons (his town, activity, etc). I'll ask you again, which games was he scum in? Arkham City or Arkham Asylum? I'll check his games there to see if he's "cheerful" there as well. | ||
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I mean, Ace was practically useless and had like 1.3% thread presence. Ace would probably park his vote on him and nothing else, he wasn't a direct threat to him as let's say, you (he could have easily killed you as scum). I think Ace was killed because basically nobody suspected him (because he was being his usual town derp), and because maybe they didn't want the state of the thread and discussion to change by killing someone else. That makes me think that perhaps scum were content with the way the discussion was going, which was basically steering towards BB, Ace and Radfield in a way (nobody had mentioned Hessmyrr at all, other than Grey asking him one question). THat makes me feel better about a Hes lynch to be honest. | ||
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On June 13 2012 18:20 BrownBear wrote: Ace probably died because at any point, he can go into mafia-is-serious-business mode, appear out of nowhere with a perfect read on at least 1 scum, and get town to follow him. Basically, Ace has the ability to tear up a game singlehandedly even when he's barely invested in it, and most mafia players rightfully fear that (it's the same reason Radfield and Foolishness are popular early hits as well). Hmm, good to know that. I certainly didn't feel like that at all in Liar Game when I was scum though BB, you forgot to vote in the actual voting thread (not only in here) Anyways, it's like 6 am here so I'll just go to sleep  (finally I get to use that smiley...I don't get what half of the smileys in this forum are for, yet they don't have a laughing one )I'll read AC tomorrow and see if what you say is true VE. | ||
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chaoser is absent from the discussion for now, and I'd like him to chime in. | ||
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On June 14 2012 03:15 VisceraEyes wrote: So what do you say to Palmar's accusations against you gonzaw? They are shit so I'll ignore them. | ||
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He does that "ask lots of questions" thing he's doing here, and does post the odd smiley and stuff.He started posting in that game way into D1, and didn't seem so enthusiastic as this game (specially not at the beginning of it). I didn't really read the whole thread (just his filter), but it didn't seem he was active in discussions in it, but he does here. It also seems to me Rad was happy to accuse people in that game, even early in the game (Sheth, Toad). He's being more careful this game, with his "It's too early to make conclusions", and not being convinced on a Palmar or VE lynch, trying to find an alternative for the MZ lynch, etc. I'm not saying that behaviour of his isn't suspicious and is fine or anything (it isn't), what I'm saying is that if I take his scum meta from AC it doesn't really fit (to that specific meta). Maybe I didn't analyze it thorough, but I don't see any reason to do it since I don't see much that can convince me to lynch him today otherwise, so my vote is still on Hesmyrr. | ||
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So...you made your standard "defense" post....so what now? You'll wait until a couple of hours before the deadline to show up again? (I think that June 15 3 KST may even be after the deadline, but I'm not too good with time-zone conversions )What have you say about being actively lurking and only posting when called out? What about you being totally absent the whole night? What about you being absent until you made your VE "case" and until you made those other posts 9 pages later? Did your internet connection fail as well? You can say anything you want about your thoughts on MZ/Palmar/VE since you haven't posted them before, so if you were scum faking those reads (as if you had them at that time) it would be easy as pie, so I won't take that into account | ||
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On June 12 2012 08:01 Hesmyrr wrote: I am not insinuating, I am stating your behaviour before then was deservingly suspicious. Also I was still divided on whether to vote for VisceraEyes or MZ so wanted to see if there was going to be more materials/clues, like how you just behaved. You just wrote "I don't have the ability to make a coherant case in this amount of time", but you posted your suspicion on 6:11 so I'm not telling you to work on the fly. I don't even have to tie it into VE partnership to make it scummy, like you said ("I think the honest reason is that I wanted(and want) an alternative to a MZ lynch") you could be preparing in advance to make yourself look less responsible when MZ flips town, since you were looking for 'alternatives'. Keeping my eyes on you. Also VE, why are you so concerned about where my vote is parked? As I see it, with Radfield present there is no way Palmar is going to be lynched - which is one thing I definitely do not want to see at the moment - so I see no reason for me to change my vote unless necessary. Yep, nice conclusion there. You say that Rad's behaviour before then was suspicious (not his behaviour right now); then you spout some stuff about things Radfield said and only conclude with "Keeping my eyes on you" Nope, I'm sure I'd have noticed something like that when I first read this post in the first place, and there you go I read it again and found the same problems with it as the rest of your posts. | ||
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On June 13 2012 23:10 Radfield wrote: This is actually true enough in a sense. Day 1 I had about 2 hours to make a decision, and didn't really see any strong cases. So yes, I was looking for a reason to vote someone. Yesterday I barely even looked at the thread. As I said, I will spend time tonight. Day 2 is my special day, let me dazzle you with my awe inspiring townieness and scumhunting skills. Until he fulfills this promise, I don't see why he shouldn't be pressured. Hesmyrr would still get lynched for now (has 3 votes, the only way Radfield could get lynched is if chaoser+Hesmyrr vote him and Palmar drastically changes his read to lynch Rad and Rad votes for someone other than Hesmyrr), so there are no problems here. | ||
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Well you have to come back and vote at some point anyways. | ||
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I missed my 1k | ||
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So VE, do you have any thoughts about Rad just leaving us and being lazy as fuck? Like, both Hes and Rad just said they'd disappear....so wtf do we do in the meantime? | ||
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On June 14 2012 11:50 gonzaw wrote: <3 So VE, do you have any thoughts about Rad just leaving us and being lazy as fuck? Like, both Hes and Rad just said they'd disappear....so wtf do we do in the meantime? | ||
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On June 14 2012 13:23 VisceraEyes wrote: What are your thoughts on Palmar? Okay, good we can always use the time to talk about Palmar.. ...but I'm lazy right now so I'll just paste the notes I made in that reanalysis of the thread a while back >_> Thread Analysis: Page 9: I don't like his post here. He basically discredits me, my case on Grey, and says I was doing something similar on Cephiro in Liar Game. Now that I think about it, him going against MZ doesn't seem so scummy afterwards, although a little bit 'd say he's null for now (but could be SK/scum though). Page 11-14: Was absent, said he was asleep. Page 15: I don't see anything inherently scummy about him. He explains his RNG action, he still goes against MZ but he backs it up with reasoning, and even comments on VE. Hmm, seems slightly town because of it Page 16: Gets active in conversations, get's "enraged" and arrogant. Hmm, slighlty town treats Page 18: Hmm he defends himself okay against BB Page 20: Hmm I see he's active in discussion as well From what I can remember of what I read of him, he actually have good explanations for the things he did and said. He thoroughly explained the reasoning behind his RNG thoughts, thoroughly explained why he was voting MZ, answered questions when asked, and I didn't see him try to shit up the thread when BB went full throttle against him (if he was scum it would be a golden opportunity to do so). Like I said there, I think of him as slightly town, but I can't discard the possibility of being SK. I don't think he's scum though. About his behaviour this day: EHmm, I guess he's being retarded thinking I'm scum and voting me but never mentioning me at all or explaining why he thinks I'm scum...but I guess he's doing it on purpose like a "gambit" or something. Even if he doesn't I don't see why he would do that as scum, since it's just something so obviously anti-town he'd instantly know he'd get flak for it sometime. I find him being so defensive of Radfield and arguing with you odd though. Hmm, I'm not so sure, but if I had to guess he's town (mostly based on process of elimination). Like I said before (I think), until both scum are dead I'd mostly refer to everybody as town and just forget about finding the SK, so yeah Palmar could very well be SK (although I dunno why I think he'd be more pro-town if he actually was SK, kind of how he played Arkham Asylum). | ||
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On June 14 2012 18:56 Palmar wrote: Just because people mentioned it, my stance on Radfield has changed. I'm not 100% certain he's scum, but he's looking really bad. Anyone with half a brain would see VE is town now, and Radfield has at least three quarters of a brain. I'm not sure I like the hesmyrr lynch. The fact that I forgot about him in my nightpost means that he's not doing anything of value, or I'd remember, and he seems to kinda avoid confrontations, but he was also stupid in a pretty townie way early in the game. I still think gonzaw is scum, I don't think BB is scum anymore, mostly by virtue of almost everyone else looking worse than him. If I was playing resistance I'd be suggesting a team that doesn't include gonzaw/rad/wiggles/chaoser, picking from the other players instead. For safety I'd probably not include hesmyrr either. I'll make the case on gonzaw when I have time today, I was hoping people would just bandwagon me, but alas... So you actually think I'm scum? Well that was unexpected.... ...but whatever tough luck. @Hesmyrr: What about VE? Would you have considered a VE lynch if VE had more votes on him? Damn I guess you just disappeared again so you won't answer. If Radfield doesn't reread the thread, and "take some time" to analyze people soon then I'll get extremely worried. His last 10 posts or something have been him telling us "I'm not really sure I'll take some time and analyze him later", making promises, but then he just drops off with "Yeah I suck I won't make any analysis". I'm still more confident in a Hesmyrr lynch though (but damn I always hate when I get indecisive ).Wiggles and chaoser are still inactive as fuck, great. | ||
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Radfield is also pretty null for me at the moment, and im going to need to see some genuine scumhunting out of him. overall though, I can't see his motives as scum right now. Right now there have been quite a lot of cases and accusations against Radfield, and defenses of him as well. What are your thoughts on those? Is Radfield still null to you? | ||
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On June 15 2012 04:32 GreYMisT wrote: and Gonzaw, I read the cases and I think rad looks a bit bad, but not worse than hesmyrr looks to me. Could you explain why "rad looks a bit bad" then? @Palmar: You didn't unvote (it doesn't count...I think). Hmm, I agree that VE is pretty townie and Rad would easily catch it...but he did say that "after rereading VE doesn't look so bad", so I'm not sure if he's being "blatantly and probably maliciously wrong". What I'm concerned about is how he spent all Day 2 making promises and only defending himself but then he imploded and said he wouldn't do shit. CHAOSER WHERE THE FUCK ARE YOU? | ||
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*sigh* Like...I think only me, VE and Grey are even active at all and will be until the deadline...that's bad. | ||
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I think both are scumbuddies....but I'm more certain Hesmyrr is scum and if he does indeed flip scum it'd make me more certain Wiggles is scum by their interactions. Wiggles acted similarly (wishy-washy and stuff) in Liar Game and was town there, hence why I'm a little bit more hesitant to lynch him instead of Hesmyrr. | ||
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Also Wiggles towntold Gonzaw, back up off him. I'll leave him alive today based on what I've seen. Focus on Hes. What changed your mind? (I guess you meant you thought Wiggles is town...I don't really get what "towntold" means ) | ||
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I don't think he'd purposefully lurk like this as scum, considering that he hasn't been lurking at all on D1/N1 either. If he doesn't show up he'll get modkilled as well, so he HAS to show up if he was indeed lurking as scum, and he'd get insane pressure on top of him after doing so. It still bothers me that he isn't here, specially when half the players in this game disappear as well. @Wiggles: What in particular makes Hesmyrr your 2nd preferable lynch than, say, Radfield or someone else? You only mentioned him not committing his stance on D1 with a vote and you not liking his case on VE. What else? | ||
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I think chaoser is town based on his D1 behaviour, here: Thread Analysis: He was the 1st to post and seemed non-chalant about it. He jumped on the RNG thing without fear or hesitation, just like a bored townie trying to pass time with that thing. I think he's town for now (page 11). His suspicion of Grey is not that good...but the way he pulls it off seems townie to me. Yes, he ignores my case, and the rest of Grey's behaviour, but I don't think he'd do that as scum, if he was scum I think he'd take the safe way out and refer to my case, or talk more about Grey instead of just risking getting attention onto him by FoSing him over some wording and his reaction to it. For now he's active in the thread. When MZ says something about Rad, he immediately steps in and asks for reasoning. Seems townie. Page 14: The fact that he is willing to give Grey the benefit of the doubt makes me sure he's town. There'd be no reason for him to do that as scum. He is stil part of the discussions and cares about town Page 16: He's still active in conversations and in discussions. Yeah most likely town. Page 19: I agree with what he says about Palmar. Makes sense, is not disruptive. If you just look at his accusations of Grey and MZ perhaps..yeah they don't look too good. But if you look at his attitude and "committal" (sort of speak) it doesn't seem very scumlike. This is why I don't like Wiggles' case on him. Wiggles' case just hinges on specific things chaoser said or did. Like it deals with chaoser voting Ace based on the RNG bit, or chaoser accusing Grey of just the "VE scumslip" issue, etc. But it doesn't deal with chaoser's behaviour at all, just with little things that he could have easily done as town. Not only that, but he seems to be playing more like in BBM2 (just flipped town), and not like...let's say Liar Game (where he just lurked and occasionally posted about plans and nothing else). I noticed he played similar in BBM2 when he was still alive, which is what made me think he was most likely town in both (but of course can't use that as an argument since one can't talk about on-going games >_> ) | ||
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On June 15 2012 08:06 Radfield wrote: I also liked how he backed off Greymist.... but then he goes right back onto him. Yes, the time that Chaoser allotted Greymist passes(he gave him X amount of time to step up his game), but in that time Chaoser makes no attempt to move his focus off greymist, or to look for scum elsewhere. In fact, if you read his filter chronologically he never really skips a beat in his Greymist condemnation. I also don't really mind his RNG stuff at all, even though it's a bit strange. If anything, it's the strangeness that makes it seem townie, as it had potential to throw unnecessary suspicion on him, yet he did it anyways. Generally scum avoid stuff like that. Hmm, I see he did back off Grey, but still thought he was scum because Grey didn't actually contribute. I don't find anything inconsistent there, he'd still be suspicious of Grey (I was suspicious of him as well even though I "backed off", you can see I had my vote on Greymist the whole time as well), but he stopped harrassing him like I did. Yes, I suppose he didn't really make attempt to search scum elsewhere (even though he said he'd be ok with a MZ/BB/Wiggles lynch)...but the other stuff still makes me think he's town. On June 15 2012 08:07 Radfield wrote: MZ's fail post was saying that he found VE scummy but didn't want to lynch him because of previous mislynches. Didn't that happen later though? Palmar posting about MZ's "fail": http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=9#172 chaoser posting about said "fail": http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=12#223 The MZ "fail" you talk about: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=14#272 All those are in cronological order, the mention of the "fail" happens first, then chaoser mentions it again, then MZ makes that post you mentioned. | ||
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Although I didn't think MZ was scum and supposedly he did, but still I don't find him suspicious for that because it's almost exactly what I did. | ||
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1)Today we lynch Hesmyrr 2)We should patiently wait for chaoser to come back and express his thoughts, but not forget about him if he doesn't. 3)Maybe chaoser does fail to vote and gets modkilled, so you guys get your wish. Okay going to gym be back in 2 or so hours | ||
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I'm still confused by the deadlines. Like, in some games they state the deadline in KST, then in other games (or even in the same game) they state it in EST, then in FNT, and then in GMT. It's a fucking nightmare to even comprehend when the hell the deadline is mentally without the aid of a time-zone conversion website....why aren't they all stated in GMT or something? Yeah I don't know when the deadline is today, it already passed? | ||
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Okay, if tonight's kill goes through (scum don't target SK), then we'll be 4-2-1 tomorrow. I guess it would be MYLO. Let's see. If lynch town: it's 3-2-1, then if scum shoot town it's 2-2-1. If the SK plays for town there we can lynch one scum, make it 2-1-1, but then it's a stalemate at 1-1-1. If scum shoot the SK there, it's still 2-1-1, but if we lynch the SK scum shoot and make it 1-1 GG; if we lynch scum SK shoots and makes it 1-1 GG. If we lynch SK: It's 4-2, then scum shoot and make it 3-2, which are 2 consecutive LYLOs If we lynch scum: It's 4-1-1, scum shoot 3-1-1. At worst if we misslynch there it's a draw at 1-1-1, if we don't then it's a 2-1 LYLO the next day (with either scum or SK). So yeah, effectively tomorrow is MYLO Fuck, why the fuck did I go through the trouble of wasting like 2 hours rereading the thread | ||
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I think I might try to find townies instead of scum and get better results I'll take a wager and assume BB and VE are town for now. That'd leave Palmar, Greymist, Wiggles, chaoser and Radfield, with 2 townies in that group. Well, if I had to take a blind guess I'd choose Palmar and Radfield as the 2 townies there. Aw fuck, I need to reread everything again | ||
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Then we figure out the scum/SK out of Palmar/Greymist/chaoser later. | ||
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Scum: Greymist Wiggles SK: chaoser Before night ends I'll reread filters again and see if I can make sense of this. | ||
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Beware of who scum push. Scum HAVE to lynch the SK at some point, and I doubt they'll be happy leaving him alive forever and let him be the last lynch since if they ever get to close to victory he can shoot into them. So I think that scum may have started to or may start to push for a SK lynch (as in, they genuinely believe someone is SK and are pushing for his lynch, they could always be wrong about who they believe is SK though). I dunno why but my gut feeling says that's what's happening with Wiggles/other people pushing chaoser. But like I said, I'll reread things later so take this with a grain of salt it's just a hunch. | ||
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On June 15 2012 11:34 GreYMisT wrote: Ask yourself, what purpose does discussing this serve Finding the SK, what else? | ||
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For instance, scum could very well do with me surviving until a 2-2 phase, they don't give a shit as long as they kill/lynch other townies. So they don't really give a shit about killing me or forcing my lynch, but they'd do it only if it's in their best interests. However, they NEED to kill the SK, it's not just one guy they can take care of only if it benefits them. They actively need to search for him, and not only that, but need to get him lynched (since he's bulletproof at night). So yeah, scum will most likely start to hunt the SK and force his lynch, and I don't see how it isn't be good for town to know this. I wonder what you think of Hes' flip Grey though, and what made you start this conversation in the first place (do you think I'm scum for bringing it up?) | ||
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On June 15 2012 11:56 GreYMisT wrote: yea but the majority of this post isnt about finding the SK. Sure it looks that way, but really you are saying that scum want the SK dead. news flash, scum want us all dead. No...scum don't instantly know who the SK is...but they need to find him, and they do need to get him lynched afterwards. When we lynch some scum in the future, we can use this info to see who he was pushing..and if we find he was legitimately pushing someone with good reasons, then that guy is probably SK (or is probably the guy they thought was SK). You are still dodging the issue, what do you think of this Hes flip? (and why start this semi-pointless argument?) | ||
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Wife-"Hey honey! How was your day!" Husband-"Oh, hes flipped VT, which means I was wrong, which means he thought that VE was scum, changed his mind, and wasn't here at all to contribute, you know, the usual stuff" Really dude? Like, he just flipped VT and you have nothing else to say? How about it completely changing your reads? How about the flip making you desperate because you know tomorrow is LYLO and we need to catch scum fast? How about it phasing you at all in any way? | ||
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Any townie whose FoS just flipped VT would at least feel something and would at least start to think differently. What are your immediate thoughts right now? Like, what is the first thing that crossed your mind when you saw him flip? "Damn I was sure X was town but now I think he may be scum" perhaps? Or "Okay, doesn't matter I already I thought X was a little bit suspicious so now I can still have a coherent scum team and I don't need to change my reads too much" ? Or maybe "AOJALKD WTF??? Okay I give up" ? You are just acting like you don't even care about his flip...or like you expected it. | ||
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On June 16 2012 01:17 GreYMisT wrote: Wiggles worries me, VE, and I actually also get the feeling gonzaw is the SK (I think i mentioned this earlier). Dont have too much behind it, but i imagine the SK this game would be completley unafraid of death, allowing him to appear as townie as possible. Couple this with the fact that gonzaw has tried to start SK hunts, meaning it would be less likely he would be singled out as one if he were leading the charge. Radfield strikes me as town, as does VE. As aforementioned Gonzaw is either town or the SK. BB is more town to me than wiggles, who is moderatly scummy to me. Chaoser is a mystery to me, prp will have to do really good tomorrow. Palmar worries me. People have mentioned his lackluster cases today, and I agree. The palmar I am used to seeing completely dominates the game, has very strong opinions, and gets his way. This palmar is not only completley different, but different in a scummy way. Although I like people thinking I'm SK for now (hopefully scum don't shoot me tonight because of it ), I don't think the SK would be too confident in being "invincible" at night, since if he's too pro-town there's like 80% chance scum will shoot him at night, revealing his identity to them."Wiggles worries me" "Chaoser is a mystery to me" "Palmar worries me" So.....anything conclusive to say? At least from gut feeling? On June 15 2012 19:08 Radfield wrote: Gonzaw, I think you're grasping at straws with the Greymist thing. Do you think Greymist is town? What do you people think about lynching Wiggles tomorrow? | ||
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Well....okay I won't assume anything then (at least until there isn't a night kill or we lynch a scum) | ||
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lol haven't even read filters yet Fuck my homework has to wait | ||
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Fuck | ||
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About Radfield: I'll still bet he's town (I stand by what I said in that "Rad defense" post earlier). I've skimmed his filter again and I just can't get a scum vibe off him. I was getting suspicious of him because he didn't make those "giant cases that nail scum" posts and didn't seem confident in pursuing anybody in particular (like he is in games he plays as town). However, I remember I was convinced he was scum in "I am a cop you idiot!" Mafia exactly for the same reason: he seemed too careful the whole game, was wishy-washy about some people and not extremely confident. He flipped town that game, and just like this game he lived pretty far (until N2 or N3 I think). I guess the same thing is happening to him this game, scum are just playing very good and he doesn't really have an idea of what's going on, so he is trying to do whatever he can. Yeah I think that's most probably the case, he should not get lynched tomorrow under any circumstances (it's LYLO remember?) About VE: Yeah he's very likely town, cba to post reasons (and I don't have time )About BB: Shit don't have the time to reread his filter again. I'll just take that bet from before and assume he's town for the moment (for those reasons I said earlier, and his behavior on D2 as well.....although now that Hes flipped scum I'm not so convinced, but well whatever) About Palmar: Gut instinct tells me he's not town, he could be the SK/scum substitute of chaoser/Greymist. His play reminds me of Liar Game in a way, he was very apparent townie on D1 and N1, coming up with plans, being confident, not seeming to push a scum agenda and just acting like normal Palmar. But in Liar Game as time went on he just stopped being active and a force in town and basically disappeared, ocassionally posting his thoughts and then disappearing again. I get the feeling he might be doing the same here, I don't see a reason for a Town Palmar to drop his level of play at this time, even though I get a town read off him when I reread his D1 filter. Of course he still thinks I'm scum and hasn't done shit, and I think Rad's find about Palmar subtly hinting Hes was town or something is kind of incriminating as well. About Wiggles: He just made idle chat about the RNG bits (and I already mentioned why I got a red flag from one of his posts there). He also likes to make GIGANTIC posts full of fluff. Like really there was a post of his with like 10000 lines that discussed his stance on RNG and didn't bring anything new or interesting to the table. His activity is not consistent, he basically disappears for batches of time, then comes back and disappear again. He spend almost 80% of his time pushing chaoser or talking about chaoser, nothing else. Other than that he just mentioned Hesmyrr a little bit (in his "I'm keeping my eye on him" post, and then in the "He's my 2nd candidate I'll change my vote to him" post as well) But again, then he just tunnels chaoser and nothing else. Doesn't really comment on what's happening on the Hesmyrr vs Radfield discussion, he just points out he still wants to lynch chaoser and Hes is his 2nd choice for a lynch, doesn't really bring anything new to the table regarding the argument and doesn't comment on anything else. He doesn't really take a strong stance on Palmar, Radfield, BB or others, and it appears to me he doesn't even care about it or something, his #1 purpose in life is to lynch chaoser and then the rest of the world could burn if it were for him. Yeah I'm running out of time so I'd say lynch Wiggles tomorrow. About Grey/chaoser: Hell whatever I don't have time I'd say Grey is more scummy than chaoser...but I guess I can trust Radfield on this one (I'd like him to post a more thorough reasoning on why Grey is town though, like why he's all wishy-washy and doesn't seem to care, etc). I guess chaoser could be SK like I said, I don't really think he's scum, but well I could be wrong. Prplhz's 1st post wasn't pretty good either. Whatever if I die I'd recommend you guys lynch Wiggles, but keep Palmar/chaoser/Grey as alternatives and see how it unfolds. Fuck fuck it's already deadline fuck. Yeah hopefully scum think I'm SK and don't shoot me....this has been the longest I've been alive as town yet (I was alive until D2 in LI, but as soon as N2 started the game ended in draw (thanks to Mattchew ), so yeah living until the end of N2 is the longest I've lived in a TL game as town).So yeah, let's see, hopefully they shoot the SK or something (I doubt it though). | ||
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[quote].although now that Hes flipped town I'm not so convinced, but well whatever)[quote] | ||
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Fuck .although now that Hes flipped town I'm not so convinced, but well whatever) | ||
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FUCK YEAH FIRST TIME ALIVE IN D3 AS TOWN BABY!!!! WOOHOOOO! Oh yeah damn about VE | ||
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I don't think the lynch should be anybody other than those 3 for now (I guess Grey could substitute one of them). Which one do you choose and why? I'm leaning towards Wiggles for now, but I made that intent clear last night and I wasn't shot, so I'll tread carefully here. | ||
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Actually I'm reconsidering a Palmar lynch right now...hmm BrownBear, would you like Palmar lynched today? If not who would you prefer? | ||
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##Vote: Palmar <<<<Reasons for why I think Palmar is scum on last page>>>> | ||
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On June 15 2012 04:38 Palmar wrote: yeah i wont be able to get this together today. voting radfield for being blatantly and probably maliciously wrong about visceraeyes. On June 13 2012 10:49 Palmar wrote: damn, I was all ready to lynch ace, guess I'll have to lynch intelligently now. ##Vote gonzaw I think you're scum bro, what do you think about that? also I told you, radfield is doubleconfirmed town. | ||
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Why was VE killed instead of me? Is there anything that catches your eye or something? Like scum trying to kill VE because he was onto something, or WIFOMing about it and trying to misdirect town? Why wouldn't they kill me? Because I was on the wrong track or perhaps because they thought I was SK? Or perhaps because they wanted to push my lynch in the future? (I doubt this). Grey, would you want a Palmar lynch today or not? What about Wiggles? | ||
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The way you can usually use them is like this: "I think X,Y,Z,etc are scum, do night kills contradict that? If so then it's likely they are not the scumteam; if not then it doesn't really tell me anything, but it doesn't contradict it. However...there are times where some night kills do seem odd (like VE one last night, at least from my POV). Perhaps it doesn't tell you anything about exactly why scum did it...but I think it can tell you something about scum's "comfort" in the game and their "versatility" in a manner of speaking. Basically, if a night kill happens and you don't seem to really understand it, it most likely means that perhaps scum are content and comfortable (for instance, in Newbie IV me/Ceph/etc as scum just night killed suspicious people because we were trolling town, and because we were pretty comfortable, even though the kill itself wouldn't say anything in particular about the game). That's what I believed happened with the Ace kill, and what I believed happened with the VE kill as well, from my POV, which I think means that scum are comfortable and using their shots just to induce WIFOM/create chaos/just get rid of annoying people, and not because they are shooting people that are on the right track and are a danger to them. I may be overanalyzing it, but that thing made me reconsider my reads (again >_> ), and I think Palmar has a great chance of flipping scum because of it (a Palmar scum would be pretty comfortable this game). Thoughts on this? Palmar has been absent since he cast his vote on Radfield like 30 hours ago or something, do you think he'd act like this as town? | ||
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BrownBear prphlz I'm waiting the thoughts of these players even more than the rest. | ||
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On June 16 2012 10:37 GreYMisT wrote: You are overanalyizing it. I played a game where I just killed a random person as scum, and town screwed themselves for an entire day trying to figure out why. I already mentioned my suspicion of Palmar, we talked about it remember? Now, however, I feel I have more concrete material on Radfield. Exactly my point. Why would you kill a random person as scum? Because you are comforable in the game If your whole scum team was gunned down by 1 townie for instance, and he was systematically slaying all of you each day, you wouldn't shoot a random player would you? If you did it would heavily play against you unless you were a real smooth-talker, it would still be risky as hell. For instance, if you and Wiggles were scumbuddies, I think you could have shot me last night, and you wouldn't shoot VE as hell considering he would most likely push a misslynch on Palmar or prplhz. If that was the case, then I doubt you guys were comfortable, which would mean that if you took a shot at night, you wouldn't make it to confuse town or just to improve your comfort, but to try to actually improve your chances at winning by shooting me. It's not set in stone and I won't use it as 100% proof of anything, but it made me say to myself "Wait, why did this happen? Maybe I should reread the thread with a clear head" Grey, do you still think Rad is scum...even though he's been active pretty much the whole game, has been in part of every discussion, tried to get people to post, seemed cheerful about it, and even recognized he was playing bad and tried to remedy it later with his case on Palmar and thoughts on other players? If so, what scum motivation do you find there? Do you think he may be acting similarly to another game of his as scum perhaps? (one that wasn't AC...I don't know which other game he was scum in >_> ). | ||
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Like I said, that's what happened on "I am a Cop you Idiot!" Mafia, which is what made me rethink my "subcutaneous" (wut?) suspicion of him. I knew the night kill would basically boil down to VE or me, but I thought I was more "apparent" townie than VE and I thought I was on the right track, meaning I thought I'd get instantly shot. But well we know the rest of that story. Also Grey, answer that question, do you find Rad's specific behaviour scummy as well? | ||
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First of all, I don't think his stance or actions regarding RNG have anything to do with his alignment, and he could have done them regardless of it. On June 11 2012 06:14 Palmar wrote: Just for the record, I think MZ failed already and I'd be willing to lynch him. Piggybacking on Greymist's thoughts on RNG to express your own thoughts while making sure you're not the original argument for the idea is terrible. Let's do this. This could have been a good way to start pressuring him, but is in no way a definite case against someone. On June 11 2012 22:21 Palmar wrote: To clarify, the logic is terrible, but that doesn't make him scum. While using bad logic may be an indicator of someone being scum, it's not conclusive, because townies tend to be well... dumb. The point is that he's using bad logic to avoid reaching a conclusion. If he was using bad logic to actually do something with it, like conclude someone he wanted to lynch, or decide that someone is town, I'd not be so eager to kill him. It's the fact that he's basically saying nothing for no reason that makes him scum. Now, about VisceraEyes, there isn't a case against him yet, and meapak is much more likely to flip scum anyway. VE has a nice habit of looking ridiculously much like town when he is one, so we'll know soon enough. The reason VE has been getting mislynched is because mafia has been pushing the idea he's scum, not because he has been scummy, or that was at least the case in Liar Game. I was scum myself and just chose to ignore the fact he was looking pretty towny. Again, this may seem like a good way to pressure someone, but it's not that good either (he even says MZ could have used that bad reasoning as town). That's because these are the only 2 times he mentions reasons for voting MZ. He never really comments anything else about MZ from then on, specially when between Rad, VE, etc other lynch candidates were being discussed (VE, Hesmyrr, etc). On June 12 2012 05:27 Palmar wrote: This game sucks, everyone is trolling me or being scum. I don't think anything wiggles said is irrelevant. He's usually pretty easy to figure out when he's scum so... dunnoh. I'm not sure about you as I haven't played with you enough to know the difference between your scum and town play, all I know is your scumplay is pretty good. I would be willing to lynch BB now though, but I prefer meapak. He still prefers a MZ lynch, but seems disconnected from the discussion surrounding it as well. Like he just posted his reasons for voting him at the beginning-middle of the day and that's it. Not only that, he says he's willing to lynch BB On June 12 2012 07:50 Palmar wrote: if it's brownbear I'm willing to make it happen. Here he mentions him again. He's showing hesitance in lynching MZ and wanting to lynch BB instead, however he does NOTHING to accomplish that. Not only that, but as soon as MZ flips town he does nothing to push BB at all. His interaction with BB is weird as well, BB makes his horrible "first" case against Palmar and he posts this: On June 11 2012 18:19 Palmar wrote: That's not a scumtell. What makes you think Ace is scum because of this? Take note that I'm not saying he's town, I'm just saying that this particular argument tells us nothing about his alignment. Supporting an RNG lynch is not a bad idea. It's a net gain for town, as long as you settle the target early enough. It will actually help a lot trying to figure out what really is going on in the game. It creates an unusual situation that most people aren't sure how to react to, and it's in an unstable environment it's easiest to catch mafia. The point is that you can't really explain that in the thread (hence why I didn't) because as soon as everyone realizes you're meant to argue about whether you actually follow through with the random lynch, instead of just executing it, everyone will start thinking about it like a normal case based on analysis, and the advantage will have been lost. I'm hoping some of you remember this for future games, I've yet to successfully push through the idea of a RL because of it's inherent flaw that you can't explain it. It's like why arguing about LAL is dumb as shit. As soon as you argue about it, you've given people an excuse to lie. You just shut your stupid face and say that it's a 100% solid policy and liars WILL be lynched, while secretly keeping yourself in check and being ready to go against that position. Anyway, enough about how to play mafia. @BrownBear, The information I withheld is crucial to the execution of the plan, as I explained above. You seem to be going after a pretty easy reason to lynch someone, is this because you're being lazy or cause you're scum? He's casting doubt on BB....but he never does anything with it. He never pressures BB, not even when BB finally shows up, where Palmar just casually argues with BB (when BB FoSes him). This doesn't even seem to faze Palmar at all, like BB makes a case and goes apeshit against Palmar...and he just brushes it off and only says "I'd be willing to lynch BrownBear". He doesn't react at all in a manner one would expect a townie to react, and just casually wants him lynched....but again he does nothing at all to push him, since he's just content with his vote being on MZ. On June 13 2012 05:39 Palmar wrote: Can you stop textwalling? Radfield and Ace were much more fun. Also, in case I die, this is the list of town from towniest to scummiest. Radfield VisceraEyes Greymist Ace chaoser mrwiggles gonzaw BrownBear Here he mentions BB as scum as well....and again he utterly fails to do anything about it. In D2, he does nothing, absolutely nothing to push a BB lynch, hell he even makes a fucking joke about it However, one could have said his D1 play was just "usual Palmar", shitting on everybody and stuff. He can be apparent townie and pro-town when town, but I guess one could say that he could act like that as town. However his behaviour on D2 was an absolute joke. On June 13 2012 10:49 Palmar wrote: damn, I was all ready to lynch ace, guess I'll have to lynch intelligently now. ##Vote gonzaw I think you're scum bro, what do you think about that? also I told you, radfield is doubleconfirmed town. Here he just starts creating chaos by making unfounded assertions. He votes me for being scum and states Rad is confirmed town. He would know that surely would create at least one shitstorm that would fuck up the thread. Again, he doesn't even mention voting for his #1 scumread at that time: BB. On June 13 2012 18:26 Palmar wrote: Radfield gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside. His entire demeanor looks like townie Radfield. He wasn't lying when he mentioned that I generally had a good read on him early in games. I can usually tell when Rad isn't being townie-Rad, there's just something about the way he's posting that feels strange, but I'm not seeing much of that strange this game. I'd prefer if he started posting more decisively, but I don't think he's being indecisive in a scummy way. The reason I think/thought you're scum (bb) is not that you disagreed with me about the RL. While historically it's mostly been scum who has opposed a RL, it's in no way proof that someone is scum. And it also seems strange (if you're scum) to be so willing to reconsider your position on people, that's fairly unusual. The reason I was out for you was mostly your overreaction to me calling you useless, which you in all honesty were at that point in the game, you even made excuses for your inactivity, so it seems like a really defensive and self-aware move to actually become insulted when someone calls you useless when it's true. I'm not sure, what are your thoughts on gonzaw BB? First time he even expresses what the hell he thinks of BrownBear....and now he seems to not think he's scum anymore... This is not how I'd expect town Palmar to act. If Palmar thought BB was scum because of the bolded bits, he would have called him out on the spot and pushed for his lynch instead of a MZ one. Or at least lynch MZ but keep pushing BB later. He basically posts his "reasoning" for thinking BB was scum (only thinking, not acting on it or anything) like 50 hours later when it's completely irrelevant, and not only that, when he actually seems to start to think BB is town Also, notice that he says he thinks Rad is town (but still doesn't mention the "doubleconfirmed" part). On June 13 2012 18:27 Palmar wrote: read post above. I think it's very unlikely Rad is scum. btw, I noticed I actually forgot about Hesmyrr in my night post... that's not good for him. Hes had a bandwagon against him (well, like 3 votes but still) and was very likely going to be the lynch. However...that is the only thing he thought to mutter about Hes at all. He never addressed the case I made against him, nor addressed the fact that Hes was fucking getting lynched. He did seem to care enough to respond to VE's case on Radfield.....when Rad only had 1 vote on him while Hes had like 3-4. He spends the remainder of D2 just discussing about Radfield and nothing else. He spends a whole lot of time defending him....yet somehow changes his read on Rad only because Rad insinuated that VE was suspicious to him as well? On June 14 2012 18:56 Palmar wrote: Just because people mentioned it, my stance on Radfield has changed. I'm not 100% certain he's scum, but he's looking really bad. Anyone with half a brain would see VE is town now, and Radfield has at least three quarters of a brain. I'm not sure I like the hesmyrr lynch. The fact that I forgot about him in my nightpost means that he's not doing anything of value, or I'd remember, and he seems to kinda avoid confrontations, but he was also stupid in a pretty townie way early in the game. I still think gonzaw is scum, I don't think BB is scum anymore, mostly by virtue of almost everyone else looking worse than him. If I was playing resistance I'd be suggesting a team that doesn't include gonzaw/rad/wiggles/chaoser, picking from the other players instead. For safety I'd probably not include hesmyrr either. I'll make the case on gonzaw when I have time today, I was hoping people would just bandwagon me, but alas... Yep that's the sole reason he thinks Rad is scum now...even though Rad specifically said he wasn't actually sure about VE and would refilter him later (and later said that VE did actually look good). He barely mentions the Hes lynch which was basically going to happen. And again, he still thinks I'm scum but is doing absolutely nothing to push me. Apparently he thinks his time is more important to defend someone that won't even get lynched than actually to push the guy he thinks is scum. On June 15 2012 04:38 Palmar wrote: yeah i wont be able to get this together today. voting radfield for being blatantly and probably maliciously wrong about visceraeyes. Again this is funny because that's exactly what he's doing with me, he's blatantly and probably maliciously wrong about me and pushing me for no reason whatsoever. Okay, that was basically a PBPA and those are not really useful, it was just done to show that what he actually did on D2 wasn't particularly helpful at all. The worst thing is that he basically disappeared and only showed up on D2 to divert attention and create mostly useless discussions. He doesn't care about the lynch itself, since he basically never mentioned Hes at all and only Radfield when Rad had only 1 vote at that time, while Hes had like 3. He doesn't care about his scumreads since he never mentions me at all the whole freaking day He just seemed to care to post enough to appear he's contributing on the Radfield issue, and to find a place to park his vote. Again, just like in Liar Game. His D1 or so play may be "strong" and "pro-town", but as the game goes on he just stops caring and doesn't even try. He was absent for like 30 or more hours as well, just like he'd be in Liar Game. Not only that, but when he is indeed active it doesn't seem like he actually cares about finding scum and contributing, even on D1. On D1 he just posted 2 reasons for wanting to lynch MZ and that's it, never mentioned it at all and spend the rest of the time disrupting the thread with one-liners. He throws accusations without backing them up, but not only that, he throws those accusations without even caring about them. He FoSes BB but does nothing to push him and just forgets about him and ignores him He FoSes me but does nothing to push me and again just ignores me or hopes "someone bandwagons" him. I also said on D1 that Palmar seemed to be "on his own little world" since he ignored all current discussions as well. For instance the whole me+chaoser vs Greymist feud was going on and he never even felt the need to comment about it, other than say "I think gonzaw is more likely scum than Greymist". Hell, he didn't even feel the need to comment on discussion relating to MZ...you know...the guy he wanted dead, nor discussion relating to BB..you know...the other guy he wanted dead (for instance he never commented on my case against BB in the whole game). So yeah, sorry for making this long though. I think he's acting like in Liar Game, doesn't care about town at all, is scum and we should lynch him today. I'm more reserved against lynching Wiggles now because of the things I said before (about the nightkill and stuff), | ||
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*sigh* | ||
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On June 16 2012 19:06 Palmar wrote: Meta is the worst thing to try and hang someone on. Let my flip be a lesson of that. I'm very short on time this weekend. Even if you don't have time, you can ALWAYS take 10 seconds to post your thoughts as town (whatever thoughts you have). You don't need to reread the thread, you don't need to read filters, you can still post what's on your mind. So "not having time" is no excuse at all. Hell, I've read like 5 filters and made cases in like 15 minutes right before last night ended. Also like Rad said it's not based on meta. You were found scum on Liar Game for the same reasons...that doesn't mean it's because of your "meta", it's because it's a fucking reason for you being scum. The meta part comes because you wouldn't act as this as town, but did act like this as scum. In fact, I already said that your D1 play is almost indistinguishable from your town play in terms of meta, since you always act the same (cocky and arrogant). On June 17 2012 03:07 GreYMisT wrote: Anyway, You me and Gonzaw appear to be it as far as activity goes. might as well assume we are all town right? ( )I think this might be more likely (you can stop the whole "you going against me is old" thing, I'm just trying to figure out your alignment > : ( ) I've reread your filter, and I've seen that your D3 play this game seems pretty townie (even though it's not strong as I'd like, based on how you'd play as town it seems like it). I've also reread BB's filter, and I'm not so sure he's town right now. I thought he was town because of his "genuine" backing off of Palmar....but if Palmar is scum, that doesn't mean he's town at all (read the thread and you'll know what I'm talking about). Based on this speculation, then the 3 scum/sk are in the group of these people: Wiggles Palmar BrownBear prplhz So yeah, prplhz is very likely anti-town, because perhaps BB or maybe even Wiggles could be more likely town than him. However like I said I'm not so sure of him being scum but rather SK. Also I'm not very sure about Wiggles being scum either (fucking Wiggles making me doubt my read on him every single time ).Like....the way he's playing is so similar to how he plays as town, but also as scum. Like I can't fucking read that guy (except in Aperture Mafia). On June 17 2012 02:59 prplhz wrote: I'm up to date on the thread now but my head is spinning. Ask me anything. I kind of want to kill Radfield/Brownbear and subsequently gonzaw. Post on your own, we aren't your babysitters. Also the questions we need you to answer are completely self-evident ("What do you think of X?" "Who do you want to lynch and why?" ) | ||
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On June 17 2012 03:19 GreYMisT wrote: I mean behavior that makes sense if that player knows VE and MZ to be confirmed town. Speaking of which: On June 11 2012 18:19 Palmar wrote: That's not a scumtell. What makes you think Ace is scum because of this? Take note that I'm not saying he's town, I'm just saying that this particular argument tells us nothing about his alignment. Supporting an RNG lynch is not a bad idea. It's a net gain for town, as long as you settle the target early enough. It will actually help a lot trying to figure out what really is going on in the game. It creates an unusual situation that most people aren't sure how to react to, and it's in an unstable environment it's easiest to catch mafia. The point is that you can't really explain that in the thread (hence why I didn't) because as soon as everyone realizes you're meant to argue about whether you actually follow through with the random lynch, instead of just executing it, everyone will start thinking about it like a normal case based on analysis, and the advantage will have been lost. I'm hoping some of you remember this for future games, I've yet to successfully push through the idea of a RL because of it's inherent flaw that you can't explain it. It's like why arguing about LAL is dumb as shit. As soon as you argue about it, you've given people an excuse to lie. You just shut your stupid face and say that it's a 100% solid policy and liars WILL be lynched, while secretly keeping yourself in check and being ready to go against that position. Anyway, enough about how to play mafia. @BrownBear, The information I withheld is crucial to the execution of the plan, as I explained above. You seem to be going after a pretty easy reason to lynch someone, is this because you're being lazy or cause you're scum? On June 12 2012 07:59 Palmar wrote: I don't think Hes is scum. On June 12 2012 08:00 Palmar wrote: how is the timing relevant, also there's one more hour until the deadline? I was just pointing out in response to your idea of lynching hesmyrr, that I don't think he's scum. BB and Meapak are good lynches. On June 13 2012 18:27 Palmar wrote: read post above. I think it's very unlikely Rad is scum. btw, I noticed I actually forgot about Hesmyrr in my night post... that's not good for him. On June 14 2012 18:56 Palmar wrote: Just because people mentioned it, my stance on Radfield has changed. I'm not 100% certain he's scum, but he's looking really bad. Anyone with half a brain would see VE is town now, and Radfield has at least three quarters of a brain. I'm not sure I like the hesmyrr lynch. The fact that I forgot about him in my nightpost means that he's not doing anything of value, or I'd remember, and he seems to kinda avoid confrontations, but he was also stupid in a pretty townie way early in the game. I still think gonzaw is scum, I don't think BB is scum anymore, mostly by virtue of almost everyone else looking worse than him. If I was playing resistance I'd be suggesting a team that doesn't include gonzaw/rad/wiggles/chaoser, picking from the other players instead. For safety I'd probably not include hesmyrr either. I'll make the case on gonzaw when I have time today, I was hoping people would just bandwagon me, but alas... Palmar does seem to act way too confident about Ace and Hes being town without any reason at all. | ||
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Wiggles, what makes you feel better about BB than you did? | ||
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Scum: Palmar prplhz SK: Radfield My list for now would be like this: Scum: Palmar BrownBear SK: prplhz I'd go more into detail why I get the feeling BB is scum, but I want to lynch Palmar first and not distract town. | ||
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We are at LYLO, if Palmar is town then we will surely lose...you don't care about that? You said you were up to date with the thread.....so? Do you plan on doing anything? You just replaced into LYLO, you can be a fresh mind with new ides to get town to win this game...yet you just stay back, say "Yeah ask me questions", and ignore everything else? Not only that, you think I'm SK (for shitty reasons), and focus your attention on it...when we actually need to lynch scum? Why don't you focus your attention on catching scum then? | ||
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I think you are likely SK, because chaoser didn't seem to act like scum (at least like how he acted in Liar Game), but he didn't seem to care about town that much either. I wouldn't mind a lynch on you since it wouldn't be a misslynch, and there's a chance I'm wrong and you are actually scum with Palmar. Also, you say you want Radfield dead for still being alive, then answer me these questions: 1)If Radfield is being alive this long, how do you distinguish a scum Radfield from a town Radfield that can be pushed as a misslynch and is in the wrong track? 2)Radfield was alive in this game for a pretty long time, and actually wasn't killed on the 1st 2 nights (like in this game). Do you think his play here is different like that one? Do you think something similar may or may not have happened in this game? 3)So...what else makes Radfield scum? I've already showed you a game where Radfield was alive for a long time as town, therefore the "Radfield is alive by D3->He's scum" theory doesn't apply; you need to come up with something else. | ||
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prplhz, do you plan on doing anything? You said you think Palmar is town, you see Palmar will get lynched today, therefore you know that today will be a misslynch and we'll lost the game. Do you care about that at all? I don't see you reacting at all to the fact Palmar is getting lynched, and I don't see you trying to do anything at all to actually push a Radfield lynch. I don't expect you to do the "heavy lifting" and lead town one way or the other, but I expect you to have thoughts, opinions and act on them. If you think someone is town, it is LYLO and that guy is getting lynched, then it's your obligation to either rethink your stance on him or try to stop that lynch (like I did on the Radfield lynch of D2) and/or push forward a lynch on someone you think is scum. I don't see you doing anything like that at all, so even if you "suck", but your own POV you should be acting completely different than you are acting right now. Unless there's some deep psychological issue here (like you replaced into a game you didn't want to play so you don't actually give a fuck about anything and you know you are likely going to lose, so why even try? Or maybe something like that), then there's no reason for you to behave like you are doing in LYLO. | ||
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If you are town, your behaviour doesn't make sense to me for the reasons I described above, but if you were scum/SK I think you'd try to blend in a little bit more, or at least try to do something instead of complaining the minute you replace into the game, and do nothing at all and even acknowledge that Hmm, any thoughts on this people? Rad/Grey/Wiggles what do you specifically think of prphlz's behaviour and how it would fit in as scum/SK behaviour? | ||
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+ Show Spoiler [About SK] + One thing about the SK is that if we misslynch today (I doubt it...but anything can happen), he can "help" us by shooting scum tonight so both town and SK have a chance to win in a 2-1 LYLO later. Kind of like this D3: 4-2-1 Misslynch N3: 3-2-1 If scum shoot town and SK doesn't shoot: D4: 2-2-1 Here scum can easily get the SK/town lynched, making it N4: 1-2-1 or 2-2 In #1 they shoot the remaining townie, the SK would shoot at scum (may miss and shoot the townie), and immediately vote for the SK as soon as the day begins (or if that doesn't count it's a draw). In #2 SK instantly loses. Even if in D4: 2-1-1 town+SK join together to lynch a scum, it would become 2-1-1, and 1-1-1 or 1s-1sk if the night shots go in a certain order, which means the SK would still not win (for him to win he'd need scum to shoot a townie and him accurately shooting the scum). The point is that I don't think a 2-2-1 situation would be good or comfortable for the SK, which leads me to: If we misslynch today, the SK should shoot someone he thinks is scum (it shouldn't be too hard for him) However, if in N3, the SK shoots scum, it's something like this: D4: 2-1-1 The SK can help us lynch the remaining scum, leaving us in a D5: 2-1 LYLO with the SK If we lynch the SK we'll be in 2 LYLOs in a row, and I don't like that. I want to lynch scum today, and as time goes by I get more confident Palmar is scum by him not showing up or acting satisfactorily. Wiggles, what do you thing about prplhz behaviour up there? And what about that question I presented to you guys in the top of the page? prplhz seems to just not care about anything right now, do you find that compatible with him being scum or SK? In what scenario? | ||
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Today we lynch Palmar, he flips scum. Tomorrow we lynch prplhz: -If he's scum, we hunt for the SK -If he's SK, we figure out who the remaining scum is. Do you think Palmar may be town? Or even SK? If not then we lynch him. | ||
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I think prplhz is SK, you think prplhz is scum. Why isn't Palmar a better lynch by that reasoning of yours? | ||
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On June 17 2012 08:44 Mr. Wiggles wrote: The point is that if we lynch mafia today there are situations where we must lynch the other mafia tomorrow. If we dont we lose. We disagree about the last mafia, so that means we could lynch the wrong one. Lynching prp assures that we either have both scum, or that we have two cycles to find the last one. What youre saying to do is wrong because it relies entirely on the actions of the mafia and the sk. Youre taking the power out of our hands and putting it into scums which is dumb. My plan works in all possible scenarios regardless of what kind of scum prp flips as and regardless of what actions scum take tonight. Yours relies on the sk or mafia taking certain actions so that we dont lose Wait..how does lynching scum today "relies on the sk or mafia taking certain actions so that we don't lose"? If the SK shoots a townie tonight? I doubt the SK is that stupid, unless he's in great danger of getting lynched instead of scum or something, but then again if that was the case he'd have the chance of getting lynched in that 2-1-1 situation you mentioned. I think having a "safe" lynch on prplhz because maybe the SK shoots a townie tonight and maybe scum shoot a different townie tonight and maybe the SK gets himself lynched or we misslynch a townie on D4, then we'd lose. Palmar is scum, we lynch scum, end of story. I'm actually not that convinced on prplhz either, I'm not convinced he's scum...and to be honest I'm not that convinced he's SK either because of his behaviour (nobody answered that questions I posed above, explain prplhz' behaviour to me from a SK or scum perspective). On June 17 2012 08:30 prplhz wrote: Okay screw that. gonzaw is not scum and no matter if he is SK or town he wants to lynch scum today. He's also putting in quite a bit of effort so maybe he's right. Palmar isn't doing much and I don't really have a huge town read on him. He just seemed townie when I read the game. Anyway, lets just roll with this Palmar lynch today. I'm just going to sheep gonzaw on an opinion I don't really agree with but that's how it's going to be for now. ##Vote: Palmar If gonzaw is scum then gg wp. You should try replacing into a game where everybody thinks you're scum by default, it's not really all that fun. You are not making things any easier. | ||
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I think having a "safe" lynch on prplhz because maybe the SK shoots a townie tonight and maybe scum shoot a different townie tonight and maybe the SK gets himself lynched or we misslynch a townie on D4, which would mean we lose, is not a good plan at all either | ||
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I'll say this only once: I want to lynch scum, both in succession preferably Palmar is scum →I want Palmar lynched I don't want to follow plans that says "Oh prplhz might be SK in which case even if he was we'd still be in a good position, so lynching that guy who has less chance of flipping scum but could still flip either scum or sk is better than lynching the guy that's basically confirmed mafia" | ||
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Grey, Rad (BB perhaps) post your thoughts about prplhz and this "plan" of Wiggles. | ||
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Anything can happen by that time, Palmar can come up with a case against someone, then cause more shitstorm, have people doubt their reads on him, and he may even survive. If we all agree to lynch him today I don't see why we shouldn't. Yes, if tonight SK shoots a townie (I don't see this happening either, but lets assume it will happen), we can argue tomorrow about who is scum, prp or BB or someone else. That's what's supposed to happen, we lynch one scum and then argue about who the other one is, but if the SK doesn't shoot tonight (most likely), then we could still lynch prplhz if we think he's either SK or scum. If prplhz is scum, the real SK won't shoot a townie tonight because he knows that if he does, we'll most likely avoid lynching prplhz tomorrow, while if he doesn't, we'd most likely do, so he'd not shoot a townie tonight, let us lynch prplhz, and then try to win solo. You are making too many assumptions, you just assume the SK will shoot a townie tonight if we lynch Palmar no matter what and be successful.. Like where the fuck does that come from? The SK could even shoot the other scum if he feels like it and try to survive 2 lynches, he could just not shoot, or he could try to shoot a townie but shoot the same one as scum or scum can shoot him or not shoot at all. You say your plan is better because "We lynch Palmar today"->"SK and mafia will shoot different townies, so we'll have a hard time trying to lynch the remaining scum":
You still haven't answered me the question about prplhz's behaviour. | ||
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like who you want to lncH?c ro sorry VV BB? On June 17 2012 11:59 BrownBear wrote: Alright, I'm back. My resoning behind the Palmar lynch is basically what gonzaw and others have posted. He's not playing the way he normally does when he's town, but he was definitely trying to act like he was Day 1. He's switched his opinion on everyone all the time, without ever providing reasons, and hasn't been called on it until now. He's basically skated, and I don't really understand why we didn't call him on it sooner. He's definitely my target for today, unless something crazy happens, so I'm gonna look forward. One thing I was considering was the possibility of SK choosing to shoot tonight (and I think someone else mentioned that possibility). Given that the game is winding down, I thought it might be a possibility we'll have to account for. In the end though, I really think SK will not shoot tonight, because it's in his interest to shoot at the last possible moment (preferably when it will end the game). If we mislynch and Palmar is town, then SK will be forced to shoot red to keep the game alive (I think) but given the unlikelihood of that possibility, we're going to have SK KP to worry about. So I think we lynch Palmar today, then worry about who's SK starting today and tomorrow. My "group of scum" would be: Palmar Radfield prphlz Wiggles Palmar, case is proven. The other three I'm much less sure about. I'm certain the SK is one of them, though. All 3 have been trying very hard to play pro-town, but little things about their play have just thrown me off and made me question them. lol why did you call yourslef scvum? lolololo | ||
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like who you want to lncH?c ro sorry VV BB? On June 17 2012 11:59 BrownBear wrote: Alright, I'm back. My resoning behind the Palmar lynch is basically what gonzaw and others have posted. He's not playing the way he normally does when he's town, but he was definitely trying to act like he was Day 1. He's switched his opinion on everyone all the time, without ever providing reasons, and hasn't been called on it until now. He's basically skated, and I don't really understand why we didn't call him on it sooner. He's definitely my target for today, unless something crazy happens, so I'm gonna look forward. One thing I was considering was the possibility of SK choosing to shoot tonight (and I think someone else mentioned that possibility). Given that the game is winding down, I thought it might be a possibility we'll have to account for. In the end though, I really think SK will not shoot tonight, because it's in his interest to shoot at the last possible moment (preferably when it will end the game). If we mislynch and Palmar is town, then SK will be forced to shoot red to keep the game alive (I think) but given the unlikelihood of that possibility, we're going to have SK KP to worry about. So I think we lynch Palmar today, then worry about who's SK starting today and tomorrow. My "group of scum" would be: Palmar Radfield prphlz Wiggles Palmar, case is proven. The other three I'm much less sure about. I'm certain the SK is one of them, though. All 3 have been trying very hard to play pro-town, but little things about their play have just thrown me off and made me question them. lol why did you call yourslef scvum? lolololo lol wait you are BB i though you we Rad hahaha hey BBw what od you thino of think of me thinking you are scm .. .. sum scum wot with Palmar? huh? LIke, I've read both filters of you and you botsem to planmned abuss ou you both seemed to plan a buse you bot hseemed to plan a bus. yea hthat's tight, it seems your "outbusrts" against pPLamarar was abus, because it was very werid I though yoiu were town becaues you backed off Palmar, but if palamr is scum that's not a town tell, because of the above what do you hintthink about it? | ||
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gonzaw
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I dunno why thers' something in the inside of my head that etlls me "Wiggles is cum with Palmar and aats watns to let him live a little longer, this seems like a distraction"; but on the other hand I could see a town willggglles pushignp prlhx lyn lych lynch him lynch lie lynch lie like he did if he was town and using "his plan" that he used /about prplhz being scum/Sk anmd ,e me thinking prplhz was Sk/ if wiggles though p pp prllhz was scum wiggles pirates ARGGHH!!! uyesh!!!! yes somethi gng like that? Do youa aggree? | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 17 2012 18:25 gonzaw wrote: lol yo who lycnch=? like who you want to lncH?c ro sorry VV BB? lol why did you call yourslef scvum? lolololo lol wait you are BB i though you we Rad hahaha hey BBw what od you thino of think of me thinking you are scm .. .. sum scum wot with Palmar? huh? LIke, I've read both filters of you and you botsem to planmned abuss ou you both seemed to plan a buse you bot hseemed to plan a bus. yea hthat's tight, it seems your "outbusrts" against pPLamarar was abus, because it was very werid I though yoiu were town becaues you backed off Palmar, but if palamr is scum that's not a town tell, because of the above what do you hintthink about it? It seemed werid Palmar backed of f you so fast and you bakced of f him so fast as well I ahve notes archived insidemy brain and PC but i'ts very diffucult to find the mso I'l possite them later. Tham amn Damn, okay I think I can ewrite okay now,...sort of, yeah that thing from above. | ||
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gonzaw
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Like, I don't know why Wigles nosw sodduenly wants to lync hprplhs with all his might even though eh things Palmar is scum. Like, he think s Palmar is uscm ,I think Palmar is sucm, everyitob0dy pthis Palmar is sucm....why not lynch Palmar? But dam,n,I if Palmar flips scum I have evidence BB is sucm, but Wiiggles could be as well (Uhe could be town by the above thing I've writtcen). ALso I'm not really sure if prllhz is town or not....nobody answer ed my wuestion/question from above. | ||
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gonzaw
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BEVHAIOUR BEHAVIOUR FROM NOW PUSH? | ||
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gonzaw
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gooby plz sorry for spam | ||
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gonzaw
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so I do't post afterward.s...look at his outburst with PAlamr and palmar's interacitons with him....I think it could be a planned bus..which is why I spout all that "oh yeah VE's kil made me change my midn" and what made me think Palmar was scum in the fist place Damn well I think I should have not told you guys thihs abd and waited t fo for BB's reaction more, perhaps? _ Well..:Grey Rad I think you are both town (if youre are scu sk then fuck well after scum are lyncehd they acn can deal with you)( ) what do you8 htink abotu a CC BB+Palmar scum team? H Here are my bnotes: Note: Notes: BrownBear: Hmm, his behaviour seems townie...but there's something about his interactions with Palmar that seem off. First of all, voting Palmar for the RNG deal is just stupid, and if he was scum he'd know it'd be stupid and wouldn't convince anybody to vote for Palmar. Second, he goes against Palmar pretty heavily...but doesn't actually call him scum. He just calls him a "cancer to town", votes him and just argues and argues and says "we need to cut it or ignore it", never says he wants to lynch him because he thinks Palmar is scum or anything. Even so, his 1st vote on him was a "preliminary vote", again, there was no strong accusation or anything. That seems fishy. He does seem VERY upset against Palmar...but to be honest I can't see BB being actually frustrated like that regarding Palmar's play. Like, if he had been arguing for 10 pages with Palmar, with Palmar ignoring him or something, then yes I'd think it was justified; but like, he votes Palmar for disrupting town and the RNG bit, and IMMEDIATELY gets frustrated and annoyed by him, for instance these posts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=18#359 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=18#360 Like, getting so worked up because Palmar called him "useless" seems weird to me. He keeps saying that he's "annoyed right now"...hmm. In N1, he immediately starts to think Palmar is "just BM-style town - annoying, misleading, and should be ignored." So...he starts to think Palmar is town now...when he spent 100% of his effort on D1 trying to get Palmar lynched for that specific behaviour he mentioned. Like I said, I guess he "could" have acted like this as town, realize his mistake and then ignore Palmar. It's also possible it's a planned bus to increase BB's credibility. I'll try to find out and see how BB responds to my vote on Palmar. I guess he is willing to bus him though, so I'll have to be careful with what he does. Of course, I already have a "case" made against him...so I don't need to point those things out again He's wishy washy about Radfield, casting doubt on him as soon as N1. He finds him suspicious but says he doesn't want to "tunnel" so he'll look around some more. He then goes against Palmar for voting me, asks him if he has a case. I think he ignores that later and doesn't follow up on it He changes his vote on Hesmyrr and doesn't even consider voting Palmar for instance. Yesh this seems fishy Not only that, he took Palmar's joke "seriously" and as a reason to go against Palmar as well....but still doesn't vote Palmar and never mentions him again later at all. The fact he took his "joke" seriously is weird as well (although chaoser and Grey thought I was being legit with my "joke vote" on VE >_> ) He's been absent throughout all N2, avoiding any discussion whatsoever, even though he was active on N1 and D2. To be honest, his behaviour from N1 and D2 hasn't been as good as I thought, he does seem "nice" and all with some smileys and stuff,but he just wagons on the Hesmyrr vote (for not that GREAT of reasons), and somehow manages to completely ignore Palmar yet still go against him. If Palmar flips scum then I'd find this VERY fishy, enough to warrant a lynch on him. However, if Palmar flips town....for one we lost, but at least BB is town as well. The more I read their interactions the more suspicious I get. BB also seems to ignore Palmar accusing BB of being scum...but never doing anything about it. Every time Palmar accuses BB, he just throws a hissy fit against Palmar...and then goes on with his usual business. He never mentions why Palmar would cast suspicion on him without any reason and not pushing it, etc. Palmar: Interaction with BB: His first interaction with BB is mentioning there isn't a case on him and calling him "fucking useless", just like he called Ace. When BB calls him out, he seems to act casually regarding it, however later he says he thinks BB is scum (in one of those one-liners of his). His response here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=18#349 That doesn't seem the tone of someone that thinks the guy he's responding to is mafia. However he then says he'd like to lynch BB...but says he prefers a MZ lynch (and lo and behold his vote stays on MZ). He later says that he'd be willing to make a BB lynch happen...but doesn't do anything. VE said he'd like that as well, but he just ignores it and later says he thinks Hes is town...nothing else, until the day ends and MZ is lynched. That kind of interaction is fishy as fuck, because it's Palmar appearing to push a lynch on someone but not actually taking the effort to do it, which is classic scum bus. In this post he mentions BB as his "greatest scumread" (implicitly): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=24#467 But...? He does nothing about it. If he was town he'd push that read...if he was scum and BB town he'd push that read even more (like he did with MZ). However in D2 he NEVER AT ALL pushes the BB lynch...only "votes" him as a joke. More proof: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=27#535 He basically tells BB he's scum...and again does nothing to push that lynch. He still has his retarded vote on me. Then however, he just blatantly says that now he thinks BB is town for reconsidering his reads and because "historically scum oppose RL" or some shit. Like, it seems convenient that now both of them "reconciliated" and think each other is town...after both were going full against each other without actually doing it. Hmm, he seems to "know" Ace, VE and Hes are town, or subtly imply it. His read on BB later is this: "I don't think BB is scum anymore, mostly by virtue of almost everyone else looking worse than him." That's wishy-washy as hell, and very fishy as well. Palmar doesn't care about anything, not even on D1. He FoSes MZ but never even mentions him again or cares about the discussions about him. He FoSes BB but doesn't care about pushing him or anything. He just goes around throwing useless one-liners and stuff. On D2 his behaviour is a joke. He only appears to: -Say he thinks I'm scum -Talk about Radfield -Say he now thinks BB is town He doesn't care about the Hes lynch or case, he doesn't even care about pushing me, he doesn't even care about Radfield either since he changes his stance on him based on Rad thinking VE was scum and nothing else, just disregards everything he said about Radfield before. He's acting like in Liar Game where after D1 he just disappears and shows up just to post and blend in. | ||
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gonzaw
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fuck oh well...Wiggles that's why I think BB is scum now f go try on convince me prplhz is sucm. | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 17 2012 22:29 Radfield wrote: I don't think there is necessarily a connection between BB and Palmar. They've had a lot of interaction, and I didn't really find much of it contrived. This exchange in particular seemed legit(open the quotes for the full convo). I do agree that if Palmar flips scum, it casts Wiggles in a worse light. But looking at Wiggles actions and arguments from a scum perspective doesn't seem to fit. If Wiggles and Palmar are scum, then Wiggles is playing completely wrong. Consider: Palmar has basically gone MIA, everyone thinks he is scum and he's almost surely going to get lynched.... What's the proper scum play? You bus obviously. You certainly don't try to play for the immediate win with an ally who isn't even around. You just bus, and then push the mislynch on whomever defended your teammate. Trying to defend Palmar right now just risks throwing the whole game away. That's my gut thought anyways, but I'm going to do some reading. That's the part I find odd as well....Palmar just called him "useless" because he wasn't doing anything (and he was right)....it seems a little strange for BB to get so worked up just for that single fact, considering Palmar responded to BB's case in a calm manner. The whole interaction seems strange to me, BB votes Palmar for a shitty reason (the RNG thing), then starts bickering against him but doesn't actually call him scum (at one point he even says "we should figure out if you are frustrating townie or ignore you") or makes an effort to get him lynched, he gets all worked up and "frustrated" for no reason, all the while Palmar just acts as calm as possible, and just says "I'd like to lynch BB"....but never pushes his lynch, even when he had a chance of being lynched. I put my vote on BB, so BB had a chance of being lynched. At one point Palmar expresses his thoughts about changing the lynch, and casually says we should lynch BB, but doesn't do anything to push it. Of course, then BB pulls out the "I was frustrated, now I think Palmar is town" card, and even Palmar pulls out the same card later. On D2 the thing I found odd was how: -BB misinterpreted Palmar's joke (I thought it was obvious) -BB started calling Palmar out for things and getting worked up again, but after bickering against Palmar he just completely ignored him, it seemed just for show. So yeah, Palmar "going against BB" without a single effort in trying to get him lynched, and their interactions made me think it was a bus, so then I kept reading their filters and just figured out Palmar was scum, and there was a high chance BB was scum as well (I can post that half-case I had ).Of course we lynch Palmar today, no objections | ||
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gonzaw
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prplhz didn't actually vote....does he get modkilled? Also, okay Palmar didn't even show up, I guess he gave up so that gives me a better feel for today. | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 17 2012 07:28 gonzaw wrote: Although I find your behaviour weird. If you are town, your behaviour doesn't make sense to me for the reasons I described above, but if you were scum/SK I think you'd try to blend in a little bit more, or at least try to do something instead of complaining the minute you replace into the game, and do nothing at all and even acknowledge that Hmm, any thoughts on this people? Rad/Grey/Wiggles what do you specifically think of prphlz's behaviour and how it would fit in as scum/SK behaviour? I'll repost this waiting for a response Can someone post their opinion on prplhz, and more specifically his behaviour? | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 18 2012 07:23 GreYMisT wrote: I think he could be either, I think he is scum before SK though just because he isn't playin it like I would. He has pretty much resigned himself to the town, even though it is palmar getting lynched. With this breathing room he should be helping more, but he chooses not too. You think he could throw that "I don't care you guys are better then me I give up I'll just sheep gonzaw" tantrum as scum? Like Rad said, at this point scum would likely bus Palmar and try to win on their own....prplhz doesn't seem to act like it (bussing Palmar by "sheeping" me and "going against his read" seems kind of odd for a bus). He also doesn't seem to act for his own survival if he was scum. He basically admitted he wouldn't do shit and he's playing like shit, etc; and I don't think I'd expect that of him as scum. If he was scum I'd expect him to push someone else (like Rad) and come up with reasons to cast doubt on him, etc to set up a misslynch on D4 that could win him the game. Or at least he'd try to defend himself a little bit more and be more cautious, specially since a lot of people want him dead. Yes, he could act like this as scum to confuse us or something, but I'm trying to see all possibilities here....and prplhz being town is one of them, so I want to be sure. On June 18 2012 07:33 BrownBear wrote: Well, yes. Hence why I said "I will go do that", implying I would go read his filter and decide. Until then, though, I see him as someone where I don't know if he's scum or not, hence, I make no accusations against him. Erm, duh. And gonzaw, I have an issue with direct attacks like calling someone "fucking useless". Saying someone is not contributing is a different matter. So I don't have an issue with what Palmar said, I have an issue with the way he said it (and frankly, I don't understand why we let him be as openly hostile as he is). Why did you just ignore Palmar on D2 even though he attacked you and you attacked him back? On June 13 2012 12:24 BrownBear wrote: Also, Palmar, srsly you think I'm scum every game. Find a new target to tunnel bro. On June 13 2012 18:17 BrownBear wrote: Couple things I'd like to see you talk about more here. Firstly, why do you think gonzaw is scum? Could you give us a case? Secondly, do you have any reason for thinking Radfield is town other than "he agrees with me"? If so, please say it. --- Anyway, I think Hesmyrr is who I'm gonna vote on now, before I go to sleep. gonzaw's case has a couple good points. Namely, during the first day cycle he really did only pop up when he was being talked about. This indicates he was reading the thread very closely, but trying to avoid actively posting in it - usually only done by players who have something to hide. Since this setup has no blues who benefit from obscurity, that casts some serious doubt on Hesmyrr. Secondly, Hesmyrr also is doing the same thing I accused Radfield of doing earlier: He's subtly getting other people to contribute in his stead. Example: He was the original guy to push VE, but he wants (i think) gonzaw to do the analysis? That's very strange. If he couldn't find enough concrete agruments to merit an analysis post, why does he expect another player to find it for him? Either he's very unsure about his analysis skills (not true, it's Hesmyrr, he's a veteran mafia player) or he doesn't want to post analysis out there himself. It's enough for me right now to vote for Hesmyrr. He and Radfield seem the most suspicious right now, and I think the case against Hes is slightly stronger, so... ##Vote: Hesmyrr One final thing: Cute. Now how about you contribute, like I said above. Why do you think I'm scum? Is it because I disagree with you? Because that's the only reason you've got so far. And it's a shitty reason, and I'm beginning to think you've just stopped giving a shit about this game and you aren't trying, which is unacceptable in a mini. Ok, I gotta get up in 6 hours, so I'm off. Night, all! You got pretty worked up in that 2nd quote. Even though it was a joke and was explained to you later, at that time you thought it wasn't, and you began attacking Palmar ("I'm beginning to think you've just stopped giving a shit..." , etc). However after the joke is "explained"...you never dwell on that again and keep ignoring Palmar until D3. Why is that? Why do you and Palmar take shots against each other on D2 but not act upon them? (well...Palmar did that because he's scum, but I'm asking about you). That whole "I FoS Palmar for a stupid reason. I get angry at him for a stupid reason as well and waste the whole D1 on it.But now I think he's town. Now I'm harrassing him and say he doesn't care about the game and take shots at him for thinking I'm scum. Now I forgot about that and never mention him again. Now he's obvious scum let's lynch him" act of yours seems weird to me | ||
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gonzaw
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Omg....first lynch I lead that ends up in a scum lynch....so proud :D | ||
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gonzaw
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prplhz, you should spend the rest of this night convincing everybody else why they shouldn't lynch you (you see, I'll most likely die tonight...and when I do everybody will want to lynch you), and contribute more. | ||
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gonzaw
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Basically, each of you 3 should post reasoning on who of that group of 3 (barring yourself) is scum and why and defending yourself as well. All 3 of Wiggles, BB and prplhz could be scum for different reasons (yeah I'll explain my stance on BB and stuff more thoroughly later), and one of those 3 should be tomorrow's lynch because I'm sure the scum is in one of those (Grey and Rad are not scum...one of them could be the SK, but I don't care let's kill all scum first). | ||
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gonzaw
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Like always I'll reread the thread and see if I catch something else (damn I've been changing my mind so many times this game >_> ). I need to reread chaoser's filter some more, I still don't get the feeling he was scum, and I have a gut feeling prplhz's is town by his behaviour last day. That leaves BB or Wiggles to me....and damn I can see both of them as scum Rad, what do you think of prplhz's behaviour? Could you respond to those points I made above about how prplhz's behaviour seems too weird if he was scum? | ||
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gonzaw
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If prplhz is the SK , well a Wiggles+Palmar scumteam makes sense as well if Wiggles actually thought prplhz was town. BB/prplhz/Wiggles we are almost there and all 3 of you need to step up your game and comment on everything that's being discussed. At least 1 of you is town so make the effort. Discuss on the BB+Palmar interactions I caught, the prplhz lynch Wiggles wanted us to follow last day, and prplhz' behaviour last day and connections between chaoser and Palmar for instance. | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 18 2012 09:25 Radfield wrote: You feel fairly strongly that Greymist is Town Gonzaw? Well...no, not as strong as you. But if we just go with a process of elimination then yeah I think he's town. However, if I have to guess yeah he's town. His play is not so strong, he's wishy washy at times, only asks questions, doesn't take firm stances, etc and those things are what make me slightly suspicious of him. But then there's the fact that he's active in almost every conversation, the fact that he seems to care what's going on even if he doesn't comment much on it. Also, even though his case against Rad was kind of bad on D3, his discussion with you and unvote seemed genuine. If he was scum then he had all the chances in the world to push for your misslynch instead of Palmar, or for someone else (WIggles perhaps). He was too inactive last day to be scum, before and after I made my case against Palmar. I think if he was scum he'd either try to push someone else's lynch to save Palmar...or just straight bus him from the start. Granted....when I made my initial case against him on D1 Palmar came to his rescue almost instantly by discrediting my case and diverting attention towards MZ....but I don't know if that's too damning or not. | ||
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gonzaw
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The things I find damning is his total absence in N2 and most of D3. In D2 he was very active. Once I made my case against Hes he was always there to comment on it, or comment on the Rad issue, or argue against Palmar. After N2 he basically disappeared....along with Palmar.. On D3 his only post was basically voting Palmar and being very confident Palmar was scum, even though he said that Palmar was most likely "Bill Murray townie" back in N1. Basically, since N1 he was very inactive and had quite a change of heart regarding Palmar he didn't really explain at all. I found that even more damning. Of course, not talking about his actual interaction with Palmar that for me seemed very off (what exactly makes you think he's town by that interaction?) | ||
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gonzaw
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Today it's 4-1-1 right? I'll most likely get shot (or maybe something weird happens and Grey/Rad get shot for some reason), making it 3-1-1 tomorrow. If we lynch town, then it will be 2-1-1 on N4. These are the things that can happen:
As you can see, if we lynch town tomorrow, it will be almost impossible for scum to win the game So I think the scum will actively try to get the SK lynched tomorrow, because a misslynch on a townie is as bad for him as it is for us (if the scum didn't figure this out by now....hey now you know! Go catch the SK for us tomorrow okay?) So again, like I said on N1-N2 I believe, pay close attention to what everybody does and who they push, since it can give us info about scum+SK. Wiggles said that the SK could shoot a townie tonight. Just read what I put up there, if tomorrow we misslynch a townie (3/5 of remaining players) he basically has his win guaranteed; if tomorrow we lynch scum (1/5 of remaining players), then he'll arrive at a 3-1 D5 MYLO and have a pretty good chance to win as well. Basically, the only thing the SK has to do tomorrow is avoid the lynch and he has very good chances of winning. If he shoots a townie tonight, then it will be 2-1-1 on D4. Here, there are 3 things that can happen: 1)SK lynch: He loses. There is 1 less suspect than in a 3-1-1 D4 so it may be harder for him to survive it as well 2)Scum lynch:In this case it will be 2-1 for the whole N4 and D5. That's 2 cycles he has to hide his identity in a 2-1 LYLO. Not only that, winning in a 2-1 LYLO is more difficult than doing so in a 3-1 LYLO (like he would in one of those situations from above). 3)Town lynch:Then it will be 1-1-1 at N4, scum shoot the remaining townie and it's 1-1 (SK can't shoot the scum since he already shot) and it's a draw. As you can see, if the SK shoots a townie tonight he'll considerably worsen his chances to win the game than if he doesn't shoot at all (Of course he can shoot the scum tonight, but well that's good for us so I don't take it into account here) Conclusions:
So I think tomorrow could be a good day, since we'll have 1 faction trying to lynch the other one, the other faction trying to get that faction lynched as well (he has to correctly identify and kill the scum in one way or another, so it's in his best interests to hunt for the scum at day as well, trying to look townie in the process and getting rid of his opposition in one go), and us having some idea of who could be scum or not. What do you people think? | ||
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gonzaw
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Proposal to scum and SK: To Scum: What I want you to do is push for a SK lynch tomorrow and try to get him under as much pressure as possible. Of course don't fuck up and push someone you think is SK that ends up being a townie. Chill, relax, take some time off, reread the thread, and accurately pinpoint who's the SK okay? We can't really do that since we are trying to hunt your ass down as well as his, so it will be difficult for us to determine if someone is scum or SK, but you can catch him easier. Why would I ask you this? Because the other alternative is for you to push for a townie lynch. A townie lynch is bad for us, because we automatically lose. A townie lynch is bad for you, because of the reasons I stated above. To SK: I want you to not shoot tonight, and to push for a scum lynch tomorrow. Why not shooting? Because it's bad for both of us. If you shoot a townie, then we will likely lose, but you'll give scum a greater chance of winning (like I explained above) Why push for a scum lynch? Because it will make you look better and make it easier for you to hide by being "pro-town" and stuff. You'll also get us rid of the scum, but you'll be in a 3-1 situation, which makes it easier for you to hide than in a 2-1 situation for instance. Yes, I already said that if we misslynch a townie you have pretty good chances of winning......but think of it like this: Yes, if you push a townie and we misslynch him, then you basically win....but if you push a townie and we don't misslynch him and lynch scum instead, you may look bad. Also we will try to catch the scum, and may have a good idea of who he is, so you going against the flow of things to try and get a townie lynched, while the other 2 factions won't (town wants to lynch scum, scum will try to lynch you) will make you stand out, and very likely out you as SK. Not only that, but scum will try to get you lynched. If you try to push a townie lynch, you'll give him more reason to FoS you and push your lynch, making you more vulnerable and likely to get lynched yourself. I'm making this proposal because I know both of you want the other one dead, and town really, but really really wants you to accomplish said objective; so as long as you want to kill the other faction we'll help you all we can. Once you kill the other faction, well then it becomes a completely different game between us and you, but I'm sure you won't feel dishearted by that right? I'm sure you know that playing against 1 faction is easier than playing against 2 factions right? Think about it.... Sincerely, Town | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 18 2012 09:09 gonzaw wrote: BrownBear you should spend the rest of this night convincing me why we shouldn't lynch you tomorrow and who you think the remaining scum is. prplhz, you should spend the rest of this night convincing everybody else why they shouldn't lynch you (you see, I'll most likely die tonight...and when I do everybody will want to lynch you), and contribute more. I don't see you here BB. I'd like to know something.....why were you so active on D2....yet so inactive on D3 and now? It wouldn't be about time-zones and you having to sleep/go to work/etc because it's only days apart but they happen at the same time (i.e you were active at a certain time in D2, therefore you would be active at that certain time in D3 72 hours later). It was weekend so perhaps you had to go somewhere else...but you never stated that you would, so I am to assume that there wasn't something that really took off your time IRL. You were pretty active on N1 as well...but completely absent on N2 (and what's left of N3). Same deal. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
prplhz: I had a town read on chaoser for his behaviour on D1/N1, or at least a "non-scum" read. Prplhz' behaviour last day doesn't seem consistent with him being scum and knowing Palmar would die. If he was scum he'd know Palmar was going to be the lynch that day, so he'd try to bus him or heavily push another candidate to try to save him...he wouldn't basically resign and say "Yeah I think Palmar is town and Rad is scum...but I won't do anything". If he'd actually given up like that then perhaps scum itself would have resigned instead Wiggles: Well, 2 reasons for this: 1)As Rad said, Palmar was going to be the lynch so his scumbuddy had to bus him and it would be the correct play. Wiggles trying to heavily lynch prplhz instead of Palmar and making his "plan" to do so would not have been a good scum play, because: -If Palmar was lynched, he'd look really bad and would most likely be lynched soon -If prplhz was lynched, he'd flip town (or SK if he was lucky), again making him look bad for taking the lynch off Palmar. If prplhz flipped town it would basically out him and Palmar as scum for the SK to shoot at and town to lynch later, if he flipped SK it would have not put him in a good place either. Wiggles pushing for prplhz's lynch is consistent with what he's done all game too (even though he just seemed to tunnel chaoser ever since N1 >_> ). 2)The VE kill. VE was heavily pushing prplhz the night when he died....but I was the one telling everybody that Wiggles was going to be D3's lynch. Palmar was already under a little suspicion, I was basically "confirmed town" by that point (everybody thought I was town...or kind of SK but still they didn't think I was scum), so shooting me would be their best option. They get rid of an "obvious townie", a town influence, and someone that was on the right track since I was trying to do all my best to kill Wiggles, and they don't give town that much info. If WIggles was lynched on D3, Palmar would know he would easily get caught and lynched later. I said this already, but I think VE was killed because scum were comfortable. If Wiggles was scum, scum wouldn't be comfortable at all. If prplhz was scum, I guess scum wouldn't be comfortable at all and decided to kill an "obvious town" that was trying to get prplhz lynched (VE), while leaving me alive in the hopes that I get Wiggles lynched. However, see reasons above why I don't think prplhz is scum. A Tale of 2 scum (speculation): A Palmar+BB team would be comfortable as hell by N2. D3 would be LYLO, and Wiggles/prplhz were the only lynch candidates being discussed, with VE/Wiggles mainly pushing a prplhz lynch, and with me mainly pushing a Wiggles lynch. Killing me or VE would benefit them the most (we were considered town by many, we had great influence with town, and our deaths would give town the least info basically); so yeah they were comfortable enough to just kill whoever they decided. Since I was pushing a Wiggles lynch more and influenced town even more, I guess they decided to keep me around and kill VE instead. That would incriminate prplhz, while I'd still be alive to go forward with a Wiggles lynch, so they'd have 2 lynch candidates under fire for a misslynch and subsequent win on D3. I truly meant that what I said on D3 and that's what made me change my mind: scum were comfortable these past few days and that's what the night kills showed; and I think that if prplhz or Wiggle were scum they wouldn't have been so comfortable. Anyways, what do you guys think of this? Do you agree with any of the points about Wiggles/prplhz I said above or not? Again, these are other tiny-bits that make me think BB is scum. Rad once you reread BB tell me your thoughts about this. Hmm, I'd say Wiggles looks the best out of those 3 (although I can't really say anything for his behaviour alone, he just constantly disappears and appears again and makes those fluffy walls of text he always does and is very wishy-washy at times) P.S: I'll still reread chaoser's filter later and prplhz as well (along with Wiggles). These are the thoughts I have right now and nothing is set in stone, this doesn't make BB the automatic D4 lynch or anything. Just want to put everything onto the table for analysis (and kind of play devils advocate as well, at least regarding prplhz) so we exhaust every option. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
)This will be a huge wall of text that will have EVERYTHING I think of BB and why I think he's the last scum, so bear with me. The hidden case against BrownBear: On June 10 2012 15:04 BrownBear wrote: however, we aren't gonna learn anything by just going 'lol rng'... without that argumentation, we can't get any reads on people, so we start day 2 as if it were day 1, except down one person - and logically, that person is most likely to be green. i just don't think it's a good idea. On June 10 2012 15:15 BrownBear wrote: another thing i don't like is the idea of 'lets kill ace because he is best scum player in game'. ace is fantastic scum, but he's also very very competent town, so we're basically saying 'lets remove one of the best players in the game while he has almost no evidence against him, on the 3/11 chance he's working against us.' not like i have any better idea, i just think we should think and debate some more before we start throwing tons of votes around. I find these 2 posts weird in the context of the thread. I get the feeling he's trying to blend in by going the "pro-town" approach of dissing RNG and the "Ace policy lynch". Like, yeah, one would agree with what he says, because it is "pro-town" (by the definition of the above). But he's not contributing anything new, not even in the context of the discussion (he's not even proposing new ways to RNG, or proposing an alternative, etc). He just complains and takes the easy way in his post. Of course, this alone shouldn't be anything bad itself, Grey and MZ posted about not liking RNG too. However Grey and MZ did try to add something new, or at least interact with other people from the discussion. MZ did try to propose an alternative (trying to lynch Radfield for being "unRadfield" ), and Grey was at least discussing and actively asking people what the benefits of RNG were. I don't see that with BB, I only see him posting some generic advice while detaching himself from the conversation. He then makes the "spark discussion" post, but now I realize he said his internet was down afterwards, so even if he was eager to "spark discussion" he wouldn't be able to. So that's null. On June 11 2012 14:30 BrownBear wrote: These two posts are enough for me to throw a preliminary vote on Palmar. I don't understand why he is witholding the information of why he exactly thinks RNG is giving town a better chance, and I in fact disagree with him for reasons stated above. Caveat, of course, is I haven't fully read past page 8, and have skimmed the rest due to time constraints so this may change. ##Vote: Palmar Internets are down, posting from a friend's house. They should be fixed tomorrow so I can post more then. On the bright side, new keyboard! So, he votes Palmar (although not in the real voting thread), based on a bad reason. Palmar withholding information to town about the RNG has absolutely no bearings with him being mafia. Specially after he explained why he chose not to give said info. He doesn't take anything else into account (about Palmar's behaviour, etc), and just decides to vote him on that reason alone. Why the rush? Why not comment on at least some other things? Like that thing you wanted to "spark discussion from"? (Which was about the Ace issue, and chaoser's relation to it). On June 12 2012 05:10 BrownBear wrote: If you'll look back at page 14, I voted Palmar there, not realizing the voting thread exists. Way to try to direct attention away from yourself. Overexageration and casting doubt on others On June 12 2012 05:13 BrownBear wrote: Hope that answers your question. Sorry I haven't been too active. I find odd that he apologizes about it. Him being absent is out of his control (his internet was down), why apologize? I hate plans that rely on "withholding information from town" because it casts doubt on the guy who's doing the withholding. Which would be you. It's great you have this awesome plan and all, but as far as I'm concerned, you could be scum trying to mislead the town, you could be a townie with good intentions but a shitty plan... any plan we take should be out in the open for people to discuss, dissect, and modify, because even the act of discussion around the plan forces scum players to come out into the open and argue against it (if it's a good plan) or for it (if it's a bad plan). The reason PMs aren't in this game is so that information stays in the thread. You're trying to keep us in the dark. For what reason? Also, you still haven't addressed the issues I have with the inherent shittiness of RNG lynches. If you did post about it and I missed it, could you enlighten me? Palmar, I get that you like to play aggressive and by your own rules, but everything you've done so far this game makes me suspicious of you. Not to mention you've insulted me directly several times. As far as I'm concerned you're a cancerous influence on this town, and we need to either lynch you, or decide that you're just frustrating townie and ignore you. Like I said in my other "case", now he goes against Palmar, but only takes into account the RNG bit. The thing I found weird was this: BB reads up to page 8, finds Palmar scummy for some reason and "votes" him. Palmar explains his reason for doing that BB then catches up to the thread, yet the first thing he does is dwell on that "unfinished" accusation of his, and knowing his accusation was "unfinished" because Palmar hadn't responded about it, he now jumps on Palmar's explanation about it in the same way? Like, he found Palmar scummy before, and now after Palmar explained himself he still finds him scummy...but it seems like he found him scummy like that since the beginning (which was not true since his accusation was baseless in the sense that he hadn't read Palmar's explanation about it first). Of course, he still hinges on it when it's still a bad reason to vote for someone. He makes a whole post about it. Again, he ignores other things that had happened in the thread, and just straight goes to attacking Palmar. On June 12 2012 05:33 BrownBear wrote: You see, I'm not dampering discussion. I'm pointing out that Palmar is. I'm not sure why you don't understand this. Let me throw up a few examples. Post contributes nothing. Great, MZ "failed" by agreeing with Greymist? How about you explain some more exactly why and how he failed? How about you provide a logical, well constructed argument about why Greymist and MZ are "wrong" rather than just say "welp, they don't agree with me, they fail, LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH". So instead of complaining about it, why don't you change it bro? "Thick" is not an accusation many would say about Radfield, particularly players who have actually played with him. There's a reason scum target him early on rather than let him play entire games. I think he's just as confused as I am - he wants to know your reasoning for supporting RNGs. I do too. Let's hear them? This is the response of someone who's actually worried that they look like they aren't playing. If Palmar were playing and were secure in this fact, why wouldn't he just link to a bunch of his earlier posts where he was playing and contributing? That would be a much more airtight defense than a simple "screw you". Also, Palmar's too smart to mistake the volume of posts he's posted for actual, meaningful contribution. He's posted like 25 times: I count maybe 2 or 3 of those that are actually useful to town. This is a classic scum tactic (I used it in Mafia XXX, if you're curious) where volume makes a player look active, while clever words or subtle rehashes of earlier topics disguise the fact that none of the posts have much meaningful substance to them. Direct attack on me and Ace aside, isn't the point of mafia to build cases on people? A weak case is still a case, saying it isn't is stifling town discussion. If you think a case is weak, rather than dismiss it out of hand, you should maybe point out the weaknesses in it or the holes in logic. This builds town cohesion and stronger cases. Direct attack against another town player (gonzaw) trying to shut down a valid point: Palmar ISN'T PLAYING THIS GAME. He's trying to appear that he is, and he's trying to tie up town conversations he doesn't like by directly flaming the people making them, but he is not contributing anything meaningful of his own. Now, some people may say "oh, that's how Palmar plays lol" but that shouldn't be acceptable. Like I said earlier - his behavior is a cancer to the town. We need to either cut it out or ignore it. What I see here is him being condescending on Palmar ("Isn't the point of town to make cases?", etc), and straight up attacking him. To be honest, I could see him making a similar case as town too, it's not the case itself I'm worried about. What I'm worried about is the timing. Again, he was without internet connection, he read the whole thread, but now he just starts to tunnel Palmar ignoring everything else that had happened. Not only that, but he attacks him but doesn't even call him scum, he just calls him a cancer to town, and that may have been an exageration as well (Palmar certainly wasn't a cancer to town at that time): As far as I'm concerned you're a cancerous influence on this town, and we need to either lynch you, or decide that you're just frustrating townie and ignore you. Like I said earlier - his behavior is a cancer to the town. We need to either cut it out or ignore it He also seems to imply that he doesn't actually think Palmar is scum...since he says "...or decide that you're just frustrating townie and ignore you". ******************************************************* Post-Case: This does seem awefully like foreshadowing of what he does later...which is actually decide that Palmar is a frustrating townie and ignore him. Seems like an awful coincidence, but if it's a planned bus it makes sense for BB to plant the foundations for his switch on Palmar later. If after he makes his change of heart about Palmar someone calls him out, he could always point out to that post and say "Well, I had a feeling he was a frustrated townie in this post here [shows post], see? My change of heart regarding Palmar makes sense" ******************************************************* On June 12 2012 06:16 BrownBear wrote: I'm assuming you read through my argument and don't agree with it, which is legit, I'll admit I'm a little annoyed right now. However, I'd like to see some reasons why you think I'm misrepresenting his actions. Also, Hesmyrr, the reasoning is because MZ has posted a couple times: and This is when people are starting to say "hey there's no resistance to MZ this is bad guys". I know Palmar got the ball rolling on that, but it's kind of out of character for him to not tunnel someone to death. At the time I posted this, the only person who was still supporting the MZ lynch (albeit sarcastically) was MZ - everyone else was either not supporting it or just didn't care. He talks about the MZ wagon, but he doesn't take any stance on it. Does he agree that MZ is scum? Or not? Would he be content with a MZ lynch or not? He doesn't say; he only talks about the MZ wagon like some outside occurrence he that has nothing to do with him. Afterwards he keeps on a flame war with Palmar just shitting up the thread. On June 12 2012 11:33 BrownBear wrote: Still figuring that one out. I will post when I have a clearer picture. There isn't really a time crunch at the moment, so I hope you don't mind if I take my time during the night cycle and read carefully. The only one he attacked or even commented on was Palmar, nobody else. Now he backs off Palmar, and when asked about other scumreads he has none, but says he'll have a "clearer picture" later and read carefully during the night cycle. The night cycle ended and he didn't find anything apparently. That's a false promise My thoughts on BB's play from D2 onwards and his interaction with Palmar: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=42#834 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=43#843 A couple more things: On June 13 2012 02:42 BrownBear wrote: Did I miss something, or did Ace and Radfield just both claim SK? ok, ok, i know that isn't true. Anyway... Something about this passage seems off to me. Radfield addresses ace's insinuation that he's scumteam with Palmar by talking about a hypothetical situation in which he isn't scumteam with Palmar... am I missing something, or does that smell kinda fishy to me? I don't like the way he casts suspicion on Rad here, since it basically boils down to something that's weak and doesn't make much sense (Rad completely outting that he's scumbuddies with Palmar) that he blows out of proportion, and actually keeps going on with it on D2 as well. Again, seems to cast doubt on Rad while having something to talk about to make it appear he's contributing. Of course, we know Palmar is scum....so from a scum POV it makes sense to accuse Radfield of such...since if Palmar is lynched and flips scum, BB can always point out to that post and say "Hey, Palmar is scum, and in this post Rad implied he's scumbuddies with Palmar! I was right it was a scumslip, Rad is mafia! Let's lynch him" He continues it here: On June 13 2012 12:23 BrownBear wrote: Your case on me is without merit and awful. I posted this earlier, wondering what people think about it: I think Radfield is ducking something here... On June 13 2012 15:44 BrownBear wrote: Also, real quick, we have the same number of posts now, so ha And I see what you mean now. Still though, something about it weirded me out. If Ace were still alive, we could ask him to clarify, but he isn't, so... On June 13 2012 17:19 BrownBear wrote: I did not have time, unfortunately. With 72 hours to go at the time, I thought I would be okay not sacrificing sleep to get through the thread. I'm feeling like Radfield or Hesmyrr would be a good target. gonzaw already built a case against Hesmyrr that has some salient points (example: only appearing when his name comes up means he was reading the thread closely, but not contributing information unless he has to, which is a scum trait). I'm not 100% convinced yet because of hesmyrr's complete absence, but dude's got some 'splainin to do when he gets back. As to Radfield, I've mentioned a couple things about him that make me iffy, but one other thing I noticed. Take a look at a sampling of Radfield posts around lynch time and in the night after: All of these posts raise questions, which are a good thing. However, the number of Rad's posts that raise questions is far greater than the number of posts that provide answers. This isn't scummy in and of itself, but it could be a way to hide a lack of contribution - you can say you're contributing by "provoking town discussion" by asking questions, but in actuality, you aren't contributing anything, which could be seen as a scummy action... Gah, I dunno. It's a ton of little things about Radfield's play this game that make me suspicious. But none of them are actually big enough for me to outright point at and say "this is good evidence for you being scum". I need to stop tunneling and look around some more. Seems like a setup for a Radfield lynch (which would explain the Ace kill as well, specially when BB uses Ace's kill in his conversation with Rad). He's wishy washy about both Rad and Hes, since he actually doesn't think there's enough evidence for thinking Rad is scum, and he says "I need to stop tunneling and look around some more". This seems inconsistent for a few reasons I'll say below (basically he completely forgets about Radfield later, which would mean he wasn't actually "looking around some more"). However the Rad lynch is not happening so he switches to a Hes one: On June 13 2012 18:17 BrownBear wrote: Couple things I'd like to see you talk about more here. Firstly, why do you think gonzaw is scum? Could you give us a case? Secondly, do you have any reason for thinking Radfield is town other than "he agrees with me"? If so, please say it. --- Anyway, I think Hesmyrr is who I'm gonna vote on now, before I go to sleep. gonzaw's case has a couple good points. Namely, during the first day cycle he really did only pop up when he was being talked about. This indicates he was reading the thread very closely, but trying to avoid actively posting in it - usually only done by players who have something to hide. Since this setup has no blues who benefit from obscurity, that casts some serious doubt on Hesmyrr. Secondly, Hesmyrr also is doing the same thing I accused Radfield of doing earlier: He's subtly getting other people to contribute in his stead. Example: He was the original guy to push VE, but he wants (i think) gonzaw to do the analysis? That's very strange. If he couldn't find enough concrete agruments to merit an analysis post, why does he expect another player to find it for him? Either he's very unsure about his analysis skills (not true, it's Hesmyrr, he's a veteran mafia player) or he doesn't want to post analysis out there himself. It's enough for me right now to vote for Hesmyrr. He and Radfield seem the most suspicious right now, and I think the case against Hes is slightly stronger, so... ##Vote: Hesmyrr One final thing: Cute. Now how about you contribute, like I said above. Why do you think I'm scum? Is it because I disagree with you? Because that's the only reason you've got so far. And it's a shitty reason, and I'm beginning to think you've just stopped giving a shit about this game and you aren't trying, which is unacceptable in a mini. Ok, I gotta get up in 6 hours, so I'm off. Night, all! It doesn't seem he's really convinced by the Hes lynch. He says that "gonzaw's case has some good points", and makes it seem he's not actually confident on it. It seems odd he doesn't actually call him scum either, here: Since this setup has no blues who benefit from obscurity, that casts some serious doubt on Hesmyrr and I think the case against Hes is slightly stronger Instead of saying "Since this setup has no blues who benefit from obscurity, that means Hesmyrr is scum". No, he tries to take a defensive position and accuse Hesmyrr but still try to make it safe but not actually call him out, because he knows Hesmyrr will be the lynch so he knows Hes will flip town and a lot of attention will be on him if he actively calls Hes as scum. Also again, "I think the case against Hes is slightly stronger". It's like he's picking ice-cream flavors or something. We are talking about a lynch that could put us in LYLO and he just "picks the strongest case". Again seems to buffer the effects of Hes misslynch later and try to blend in a little bit more. Something interesting is how he still mentions Radfield as a suspect....yet he never mentions Radfield again on D3. On June 17 2012 11:59 BrownBear wrote: Alright, I'm back. My resoning behind the Palmar lynch is basically what gonzaw and others have posted. He's not playing the way he normally does when he's town, but he was definitely trying to act like he was Day 1. He's switched his opinion on everyone all the time, without ever providing reasons, and hasn't been called on it until now. He's basically skated, and I don't really understand why we didn't call him on it sooner. He's definitely my target for today, unless something crazy happens, so I'm gonna look forward. One thing I was considering was the possibility of SK choosing to shoot tonight (and I think someone else mentioned that possibility). Given that the game is winding down, I thought it might be a possibility we'll have to account for. In the end though, I really think SK will not shoot tonight, because it's in his interest to shoot at the last possible moment (preferably when it will end the game). If we mislynch and Palmar is town, then SK will be forced to shoot red to keep the game alive (I think) but given the unlikelihood of that possibility, we're going to have SK KP to worry about. So I think we lynch Palmar today, then worry about who's SK starting today and tomorrow. My "group of scum" would be: Palmar Radfield prphlz Wiggles Palmar, case is proven. The other three I'm much less sure about. I'm certain the SK is one of them, though. All 3 have been trying very hard to play pro-town, but little things about their play have just thrown me off and made me question them. This is the post where he mentions all his reads.....but Radfield is suspiciously absent from them. Like Rad said earlier, he basically just says "I think gonzaw is town and haven't read Grey's filter yet...so yeah the remaining scum is in the group of the remaining players here [posts list]" The fact that his suspicion on Radfield completely disappears specially considering Radfield is still alive on D3 Like, wasn't that the sole reason prplhz thought Radfield was scum? Because Radfield was still alive? Wouldn't that be a huge detail BB failed to take into account? Wouldn't that make him more suspicious of Radfield? Why doesn't he mention it at all? He was suspicious of Radfield....and now that he has another reason to be suspicious of him he completely ignores it? It seems to me that they also let Rad live to set a Radfield misslynch (considering how Palmar voted Rad and several people were suspicious of Rad because of him flip-flopping on VE, killing VE makes sense to incriminate Radfield). However after the Palmar wagon started, I think they forgot about that and BB just tried to go for the full-fledge bus to increase his town cred.....the thing is that he forgot he set up the Rad misslynch in the first place, so his actions aren't consistent with what he's been preaching before (that Rad was suspicious) On June 13 2012 15:42 BrownBear wrote: Good idea. Since it's a small thread, pretty easy to do, I'd encourage more people to do this as well! I'm off to do the same thing. This is another thing funny, because he specifically says he's doing the same thing (rereading the thread completely)...but I never saw any conclusion from him about it. His next posts all seem like he didn't reread the thread to gain new conclusions...he's just suspicious about Rad a little bit, and reads my case against Hesmyrr and agrees with it, those are not signs of rereading the thread. Another little thing: On June 11 2012 03:39 BrownBear wrote: and radfield, who ninja'd me to a certain extent. so, let's spark some real discussion. chaoser, what do you have against ace this game. question mark goes here. He is the one that starts this discussion but he never mentions chaoser at all in the game. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On June 18 2012 15:19 BrownBear wrote: I knew I was jumping on Palmar at the slightest provocation because I was pissed at him still, so I felt like I needed to stop that before it became a distracting issue. Also, like I said earlier, I said even when I thought he was town, at best he was a cancerous town player who was contributing nothing but terrible ideas, and who should be ignored. Hence I ignored him. He actually played a pretty good scum, and was really good at causing chaos on the first day. I wish I'd been more insistent about my squidgy stomach feeling day two, but at that point I was thinking "I don't want to keep being a dick to Palmar when he doesn't deserve it because I'm mad at him" so I distanced myself. You are way off base with you thinking I am scum. I don't really know what sort of reasoning "process of elimination" is, because you can be off base with your town reads on people, and that doesn't automatically make me scum. That's terrible play. If you're ever down to people "by process of elimination" you really need to go back and read filters again. And seriously, not all of us can be on TL all day. 7 hours in between posts was basically my entire work day today. Chillax on that. I don't believe that you'd get so worked up against Palmar just because he called you "fucking useless" ONCE. He also called Ace "fucking useless", so he didn't even single you out. The "process of elimination" is a perk for me thinking you are scum even more (I've already wrote essays about you and your interactions with Palmar before, so I didn't think you were scum just because of a "process of elimination"). Also, you seem to ignore the issue as well. Who's scum? You are defending yourself a little bit too much ever since D3, but you are not scumhunting at all. We are in another LYLO tomorrow and you don't seem to care about it Also have fun defending yourself against that giant case I made against you  | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Rad if you still think BB is town and prplhz or Wiggles is mafia, then try to convince me, I won't just dismiss that situation at all since I don't want to screw up like with the Hes lynch. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Hmm, now that I think about it prplhz's behaviour does seem consistent with a SK that just gave up and forfeited If he's SK, he knows that he has to survive like 3 more lynches, but as soon as he stepped into the thread everybody were already thinking he was scum (because of chaoser) and he could do nothing to remedy that. When he posts he doesn't seem to care about town, for instance like when I said here: On June 17 2012 07:23 gonzaw wrote: Palmar has 3 votes on him, the only other guy with votes on him is me (Palmar voted me). prplhz, do you plan on doing anything? You said you think Palmar is town, you see Palmar will get lynched today, therefore you know that today will be a misslynch and we'll lost the game. Do you care about that at all? I don't see you reacting at all to the fact Palmar is getting lynched, and I don't see you trying to do anything at all to actually push a Radfield lynch. I don't expect you to do the "heavy lifting" and lead town one way or the other, but I expect you to have thoughts, opinions and act on them. If you think someone is town, it is LYLO and that guy is getting lynched, then it's your obligation to either rethink your stance on him or try to stop that lynch (like I did on the Radfield lynch of D2) and/or push forward a lynch on someone you think is scum. I don't see you doing anything like that at all, so even if you "suck", but your own POV you should be acting completely different than you are acting right now. Unless there's some deep psychological issue here (like you replaced into a game you didn't want to play so you don't actually give a fuck about anything and you know you are likely going to lose, so why even try? Or maybe something like that), then there's no reason for you to behave like you are doing in LYLO. We are in LYLO, a guy is accused and is going to be lynched; and not only that but it's a guy he has a town read on, but he doesn't care, even though from his POV we'd be heading towards a certain loss. However his behaviour from a scum point of view doesn't make sense for reasons mentioned early (about him and chaoser). Unless scum already conceded I don't see him acting like that, and I don't think Palmar would have let him concede by then. So yeah, I think BB is scum and prplhz is SK for now, anything else would need me to seriously reconsider my reads; although if I'm alive by D4 I'll try to reread everything again to be sure. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On June 18 2012 16:01 BrownBear wrote: It wasn't just that. He was offensive, loud, irritating, and generally an abrasive player all of day 1. When I called him on it once then disappeared because I was at work, he called me fucking useless. I can't tell if it's just the quality of play has fallen so low that doing something like that is now considered acceptable, or if you're just incapable of realizing that the people you're playing with have feelings, those feelings can get hurt, and that can cause people to be angry. Either way, you need to lay off that, it's a complete misread/red herring/what have you. As to your case - man, I'm gonna have to read through that tomorrow. I'm going to say this though - if town loses because they lynch me, I know exactly who to blame Let's be honest, you can't delude yourself any longer - despite your constant assurances to town that you aren't tunneling and you're open to anything, you've been tunneling me for the last day and a half. Explain that, sir. I'm starting to think gonzaw is at least suspicious, if not scum. The amount he dominates town discussion worries me. I'll let my other smart town partners figure out what's wrong with this post | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On June 18 2012 16:05 gonzaw wrote: About prplhz: Hmm, now that I think about it prplhz's behaviour does seem consistent with a SK that just gave up and forfeited If he's SK, he knows that he has to survive like 3 more lynches, but as soon as he stepped into the thread everybody were already thinking he was scum (because of chaoser) and he could do nothing to remedy that. When he posts he doesn't seem to care about town, for instance like when I said here: We are in LYLO, a guy is accused and is going to be lynched; and not only that but it's a guy he has a town read on, but he doesn't care, even though from his POV we'd be heading towards a certain loss. However his behaviour from a scum point of view doesn't make sense for reasons mentioned early (about him and chaoser). Unless scum already conceded I don't see him acting like that, and I don't think Palmar would have let him concede by then. So yeah, I think BB is scum and prplhz is SK for now, anything else would need me to seriously reconsider my reads; although if I'm alive by D4 I'll try to reread everything again to be sure. There's also the fact that he spent way too much time explaining why I was SK: On June 17 2012 06:31 prplhz wrote: Like, gonzaw just did two huge posts on Palmar. One of them says that Palmar is scum because he is too confident in himself, lol have you never played with Palmar before? Anyway, then in his next post he's like "We can lynch prplhz, whatever". At the same time, when I ask for help after having replaced into the middle of a game and expressing my insecurities about playing with you lot, he doesn't seem interested at all. He doesn't appear to want to help me get started or anything. GreYMisT thinks I'm scum but he's been pushing me for something at least. gonzaw doesn't look like he cares and for absolutely no reason. It looks to me like he's just doing whatever this game and that seems 3rd partyish to me. 8 page filter and then I still don't get the feeling that he actually cares about town this game. He spends too much effort to explain to people why I'm SK. He doesn't think I'm scum though, just SK. Also take into account he said he wanted to lynch Rad and BB first...but he doesn't go into detail on why they are scum, yet he does go into detail on why I'm SK. This seems like an obvious attempt to shift attention off the SK to someone else, so people don't start thinking he himself is SK. Okay I've posted EVERYTHING I've got, people do well with this info once I die (if I don't die I'll be completely baffled by scum''s play) | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 18 2012 17:10 BrownBear wrote: Tunneltunneltunneltunneltunneltunneltunnel Seriously how do you get away with saying something then not even a page later saying something entirely different? Aw would it make you feel better if I say that perhaps prplhz would be a better lynch than you? (I for once agree with Wiggles here that I don't think prplhz is town at all, although I think he's SK, but a SK lynch wouldn't be bad either). Anyways BB, your behaviour right now since being called out reeks mafia, so it's making me more confident in you being one (for more proof of this check BB's last post). If I change my mind on something it happens because I reread filters and the thread and I changed my mind. Something you promised to do several times here: On June 12 2012 11:33 BrownBear wrote: Still figuring that one out. I will post when I have a clearer picture. There isn't really a time crunch at the moment, so I hope you don't mind if I take my time during the night cycle and read carefully. On June 13 2012 15:42 BrownBear wrote: Good idea. Since it's a small thread, pretty easy to do, I'd encourage more people to do this as well! I'm off to do the same thing. On June 13 2012 17:19 BrownBear wrote: I did not have time, unfortunately. With 72 hours to go at the time, I thought I would be okay not sacrificing sleep to get through the thread. I'm feeling like Radfield or Hesmyrr would be a good target. gonzaw already built a case against Hesmyrr that has some salient points (example: only appearing when his name comes up means he was reading the thread closely, but not contributing information unless he has to, which is a scum trait). I'm not 100% convinced yet because of hesmyrr's complete absence, but dude's got some 'splainin to do when he gets back. As to Radfield, I've mentioned a couple things about him that make me iffy, but one other thing I noticed. Take a look at a sampling of Radfield posts around lynch time and in the night after: All of these posts raise questions, which are a good thing. However, the number of Rad's posts that raise questions is far greater than the number of posts that provide answers. This isn't scummy in and of itself, but it could be a way to hide a lack of contribution - you can say you're contributing by "provoking town discussion" by asking questions, but in actuality, you aren't contributing anything, which could be seen as a scummy action... Gah, I dunno. It's a ton of little things about Radfield's play this game that make me suspicious. But none of them are actually big enough for me to outright point at and say "this is good evidence for you being scum". I need to stop tunneling and look around some more. On June 18 2012 00:57 BrownBear wrote: I think Greymist is town because I haven't really been able to read through his filter, and don't have much of a read on him. I will do that. Also gonzaw, don't try to play when you're drunk. Bad things happen. I'll wait for you to come back when sober and clarify what you meant by all of that. But never fulfilled your promises. | ||
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gonzaw
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*cries* | ||
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(you know, some thoughts on BB would be nice) | ||
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gonzaw
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Proposal to scum So scum, have you figured out who the SK is already? I'm sure you have some ideas...but I'm also sure you have some doubts. I myself have some doubts as well. Some people expressed doubt that Rad or Grey could be SK, and well....they could. Wiggles could be SK as well, prplhz is an obvious choice, but also I could be SK in the minds of many people. So...who's SK? Have you figured it out yet? If you did...are you confident in your read? Remember, tomorrow you NEED to lynch the SK if you want to have a chance to win this game, so your whole game rests on that read of yours. Now I tell you....why risk your whole game on that read of yours? Even if you play perfectly tomorrow and get the SK lynched, if you had a bad read and ended up lynching a townie you will lose (as well as we). Now, I have an alternative for you: Shoot the SK tonight So, let's say you think prplhz or Grey or Rad is the SK.....I want you to shoot who you think is the SK tonight. Why? Well, let's analyze the different scenarios: You shooting a townie and you shooting the SK
Now....can you see why this is better for you? Here I'll point out the mayor differences: Shooting a townie: 1)You have to lynch the SK, but you don't know who he is 2)If you do lynch him, you'll be in a 2-1 LYLO situation Shooting the SK: 1)You have to lynch the SK, but you DO know who he is 2)If you do lynch him, you'll be in a 3-1 MYLO situation Do you see the benefits? For one, you'll be 100% confident on your push on the SK and will know that you only have to get him lynched. On the other hand, you'll arrive at a 3-1 MYLO instead of 2-1 LYLO, meaning it will be easier for you to hide along side that 1 new suspect. Maybe you are asking yourself: Why should I trust you? Don't get me wrong...I want to kill you as well. However, I already said this before: We have a common enemy. Therefore, I'll do all I can to help you kill that common enemy of ours, while giving benefits to both of our factions. Benefits to you: The ones said above, you are 100% sure who the SK is to lynch him, and you'll arrive at a 3-1 MYLO instead of a 2-1 LYLO Benefits to town: We won't have a townie killed tonight, and because you know who the SK is we can gain info from this to get him lynched tomorrow, or at least to get him lynched later See? It's a win-win situation, so I'd suggest you take this proposal. Now, who would be the SK? Well, if you ask my humble opinion, I think it's prplhz, so I'd suggest you shoot prplhz tonight. Here are some reasons I think prplhz is SK We still have 5 minutes before the night ends, so you can still change your night kill. I suggest you take 1 or 2 minutes to think about it and hopefully choose wisely your night kill. Think about it... Sincerely, Town | ||
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gonzaw
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gonzaw
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People, reread everything I posted and take it into account....but don't sheep me, take it into account but make your own analysis' to catch the remaining scum/SK. I've said everything I needed to say this night, so au revoir | ||
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gonzaw
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GL town | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 21 2012 11:15 wherebugsgo wrote: LOL lesson learned for everyone involved: if Radfield isn't dead by n1, and rarely n2, he's scum. But he wasn't scum........so scum didn't know who he was yet still didn't shoot him Argh Wiggles....why do you have to play so similar as both town and scum >_> Also I said this in Obs QT; but damn you Rad for your "I am a Cop you Idiot" game, it was basically the only thing that made me think you were town Damn I was happy when Palmar flipped but then the 2 guys I pushed before dying were actually town, what a letdown Basically I figured Rad wasn't scum because the Rad-Palmar thing just didn't seem right and all night kills+people pushing him seemed like they were incriminating Rad; but if he wasn't scum then it meant that him surviving until D3 was just a coincidence, and his behaviour seemed consistent with his "Cop" game one, and considering prplhz was just acting like he gave up and drawing attention to the SK and stuff I couldn't think of him as SK. prplhz wtf did you do? >_> Also BB bad luck that the guy you backed off had to be scum I read your "case" against Palmar and found most items were just you bickering against him for "being disruptive" and shit, however you did mention some good points in passing (that were basically buried in the other stuff) that you wouldn't have said if you had bussed him. Of course I figured that out after I died | ||
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gonzaw
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lol (temporary) bad streak continues | ||
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gonzaw
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LOLOLOLOLOLOL | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 21 2012 11:52 Ace wrote: you need to stop relying on meta and just read the game. That goes for everyone. You guys misuse "meta" so much it hurts. Well, I got the "meta" thing right with Palmar, which was basically one of the most important things that made me rethink my stance on him (specially after Liar Game). | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 21 2012 12:12 Ace wrote: And what about Palmar's meta did you discover? That when he's scum he puts some effort in activity and contributing in D1 but then by D2 and later he just stops caring and goes inactive/trolling/etc (or he fails to keep up with the façade he put up in his early game). I actually had a town/null read on him until I reread his filter with that in mind. So yeah, I misuse meta....except when I don't EDIT: It was also the main thing that convinced most people to vote him as well. I was also doubting Wiggles was his scumbuddy at first....because he was one of the first ones to point that out If he was scum with Palmar I don't think he'd point that out to use it later against Palmar.......although perhaps if I hadn't started the Palmar wagon maybe Wiggles wouldn't (and maybe then it would have been easier to catch both......damn I fuck up even when I catch scum ) | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 21 2012 12:24 GreYMisT wrote: This game frustrated me more than anything else really. GG, thanks iGrok. Dude you almost gave me a headache rereading your filter each time and trying to figure out if you were scum or not. Also...now I see why Rad didn't immediately go for a prplhz lynch (I thought that if he was scum/SK he'd take the initiative and just go lynch whoever he wanted, since nobody suspected him at that point, there was no activity and he could do whatever he wanted). I guess Rad thought that prplhz could be town so he wanted to figure out who the scum was. Since he already used his KP, misslynching a townie wouldn't put him in an "automatic victory" like I speculated, which means he'd still need to lynch scum with 2 less suspects and that would have been hard. I don't know why he backed off a Wiggles lynch though (maybe he wasn't sure Wiggles was scum?). | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 21 2012 12:30 GreYMisT wrote: When you get that aggressive on a player that early on, its almost impossible for them to not appear mafia It wasn't just then, it was later as well when I reread the thread/filters. Like you were so passive the whole time I had a hard time not pinpointing you as scum. Luckily I found some tiny bits and stuff that made me think you were most likely town (for instance you backing off Radfield on D3, and some other stuff). | ||
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gonzaw
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Also in hindsight I could have voted Palmar instead of BB on D1 to get Palmar lynched......but well I thought he was town then Well, waiting for iGrok's analysis then EDIT: Oh yeah, why did you guys kill VE on N2? Since Wiggles was scum and I was saying "We'll lynch Wiggles on D3 no matter what" the whole night I thought if he was actually scum I'd get shot instead (which is another thing that made me think he was town later). | ||
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gonzaw
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I kind of think that each game scum have these "talks" where they discuss everything, about who to kill, about what plans to make, what to do, etc. ....maybe I'm the only one that does that as scum >_> | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 21 2012 14:20 iGrok wrote: I don't really have analysis. gonzaw played excellently. People are too scared of Ace, not because he can't figure everything out, but because he doesn't like to babysit players. Radfield is fucking scary. VE is really good as well. Honestly I think most people played really well this game. Well...I lead a misslynch on Hes and had my 2 last reads utterly wrong, so I'm not exactly that happy with my play (although I wasn't alive to lead that last misslynch, so I guess it could have been worse >_> ) @Prob: Yeah I think he was talking about Palmar, perhaps this post: On June 15 2012 04:38 Palmar wrote: yeah i wont be able to get this together today. voting radfield for being blatantly and probably maliciously wrong about visceraeyes. Or maybe it was this: On June 14 2012 10:17 Radfield wrote: blech I suck. coast coast coast, lurk lurk lurk, post post post. One day I will have time, but that day is not this day. EDIT: I don't know if he included the SK in that "scum" thing he said...meh I guess he meant real scum. | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 21 2012 14:25 Probulous wrote: It depends on your team. Ive had the same experience and it is really frustrating. I'm thinking the best solution if you're scum and this happens is to ignore the fact that you have a team and play like a you normally would. If that means bussing your non-responsive team mate on day 1, so be it. But yeah as town it it is always a waste of time to try and work out what scum are thinking because ultimately you are guessing. Yeah because of that I started thinking "Wiggles nor Grey are scum because they would have shot me. Not only that if scum was someone else they would have shot me as well, so them killing VE was them taking the piss on us and just killing whoever they wanted because they are comfortable, a Wiggles+Palmar team wouldn't be comfortable therefore Wiggles wasn't scum", so I doubt I would have figured out Wiggles was scum even if I was left alive | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 21 2012 15:26 Probulous wrote: Which if you think about it has nothing to do with his posting. Your thinking was the reverse of what I would expect. It seems like you were saying "Wiggles is scummy as hell but I am still alive and his posts don't fit with the night actions so he must be town." It's the wrong way round. Wiggles is always scummy as hell Well....the thing is that if scum did talk that night I think they would have killed me I just assumed they talked these things through and it wasn't Palmar randomly choosing VE as the kill just because (maybe because VE was pushing Palmar the most out of the remaining players). I guess if we had to make a hierachy of evidence it would go
So that means that if Radfield is alive by endgame he's not scum? Meh I just use everything at once. I don't say "Oh X voted a townie->He's scum even though his posts make sense"; you have to take everything into account. | ||
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