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chaoser seems to be legitimately inactive I think.
I don't think he'd purposefully lurk like this as scum, considering that he hasn't been lurking at all on D1/N1 either. If he doesn't show up he'll get modkilled as well, so he HAS to show up if he was indeed lurking as scum, and he'd get insane pressure on top of him after doing so.
It still bothers me that he isn't here, specially when half the players in this game disappear as well.
@Wiggles: What in particular makes Hesmyrr your 2nd preferable lynch than, say, Radfield or someone else?
You only mentioned him not committing his stance on D1 with a vote and you not liking his case on VE. What else?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 15 2012 07:21 gonzaw wrote: What have you concluded about Greymist and Wiggles so far Radfield?
nothing yet, though I was leaning town on Greymist and null on wiggles. I haven't got to them yet.
However, I'd be willing to lynch chaoser today as well, and not just due to his inactivity(though that is a strike, how ironic...). His reasoning on Gremist Day 1 was garbage, in particular this: + Show Spoiler +On June 11 2012 10:19 chaoser wrote:MZ* gonzaw, i think your original "case" on him that he wasn't posting analysis was silly. It's too early in the game to post analysis, the first 24 hours haven't even passed yet. I saw it as you just trying to put pressure on him. The thing that made me suspicious of him was his post about his suspicions of Wiggles Show nested quote +I am suspicious of Wiggles. Its not much at the moment, but His major post (which was fairly recent) discusses really nothing that happened recently. He states he is against a RNG lynch, but then says cases where he would be OK with it. Its this kind of indirectness that I don't want to see. while asking Palmar: when MZ's "fail post" is WAY WORSE than Wiggle's post: Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 02:40 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On June 11 2012 00:26 GreYMisT wrote: I would rather not lynch a player based on how good they might be as scum with no evidence.
And yes chaoser, there are other ways. In a world where we would RNG the lynch, we would need to pick someone to do it, or have everyone RNG and then pick the person who showed up the most. Even though you provided a screen shot we don't know how many times that RNG was run, or your parameters This post is smart. Unlike RNG, which is dumb and useful for scum seeing as all they need to do is "RNG" someone who already has a couple votes. It leaves no accountability for who gets lynched because everyone will say the same thing "I just RNG'd it." So why suspicion on wiggles and not MZ?
First off, the comparison doesn't really make sense. Greymist is talking about how Wiggles was scummy because of his indirectness and wishy-washy statements regarding RNG. The post of MZ's that Chaoser posted is absurdly direct in it's condemnation of RNG.
Second, Chaoser has completely missed MZ's ACTUAL fail-post. The true fail post was MZ's remarks in regards to VE, not anything to do with his stance on RNG.
He then goes on to use Greymists response to the VT thing as further reasoning to vote him, which is incredibly poor.
On June 12 2012 02:16 chaoser wrote: I'm ok with either a MZ lynch or a BB/wiggles lynch. This is an invite only game that was very exclusive from what I can tell from pre-game and so for people to be as inactive as BB or wiggles are is very disappointing.
But even then, lynch wise it would be greymist>>>MZ>>>>>>>>>>BB/Wiggles
This post also jumps out at me, as it's basically just Chaoser listing all the players who have been named scummy, yet he's not stating why or adding anything to the discussion. He also doesn't add Ace to his list, even though Ace had been pretty inactive as well. He is doing precisely the thing that he(incorrectly) called Greymist out on earlier: accusing some people but leaving others equally guilty in the clear.
That being said there are a few things that Chaoser has done that I don't mind, and I'd rather lynch Hesmyrr.
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On June 15 2012 07:40 gonzaw wrote: chaoser seems to be legitimately inactive I think.
I don't think he'd purposefully lurk like this as scum, considering that he hasn't been lurking at all on D1/N1 either. If he doesn't show up he'll get modkilled as well, so he HAS to show up if he was indeed lurking as scum, and he'd get insane pressure on top of him after doing so.
It still bothers me that he isn't here, specially when half the players in this game disappear as well.
@Wiggles: What in particular makes Hesmyrr your 2nd preferable lynch than, say, Radfield or someone else?
You only mentioned him not committing his stance on D1 with a vote and you not liking his case on VE. What else? I mentioned the stance on Day 1, and his case on VE as my own reasons. That he doesn't commit to what he said with a vote shows that he wanted to distance himself somewhat from the lynch, and the VE case doesn't follow logically from what VE posted. It just looks like he decided to make a case on VE and needed reasons to call him scummy; it's grasping. I also agree with what you and BB wrote about the wishy-washiness and wanting to just sort of blend in. I also like when it was pointed out that Hesmyrr just sort of pops up whenever he's being talked about. That's pretty much the definition of active lurking, and is also a strike against him.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Actually, in this setup SK should be firing with impunity. Until 1 scum is dead, SK is in permanent danger of taking a hit, and later getting outted when a scum dies. That means SK HAS to find and kill a scum before he takes a hit, or else his game is over.
Reading Wiggles, and wiggles I'll comment on your Chaoser case once I get to it.
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Also, I forgot to mention, but besides the one thing I pointed out, nothing's really stood out to me as that scummy about Radfield. At least not when compared to Hesmyrr, so I'd much rather lynch him first.
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Wait..that wasn't MZ's fail post?
I think chaoser is town based on his D1 behaviour, here:
Thread Analysis: He was the 1st to post and seemed non-chalant about it. He jumped on the RNG thing without fear or hesitation, just like a bored townie trying to pass time with that thing. I think he's town for now (page 11). His suspicion of Grey is not that good...but the way he pulls it off seems townie to me. Yes, he ignores my case, and the rest of Grey's behaviour, but I don't think he'd do that as scum, if he was scum I think he'd take the safe way out and refer to my case, or talk more about Grey instead of just risking getting attention onto him by FoSing him over some wording and his reaction to it. For now he's active in the thread. When MZ says something about Rad, he immediately steps in and asks for reasoning. Seems townie. Page 14: The fact that he is willing to give Grey the benefit of the doubt makes me sure he's town. There'd be no reason for him to do that as scum. He is stil part of the discussions and cares about town Page 16: He's still active in conversations and in discussions. Yeah most likely town. Page 19: I agree with what he says about Palmar. Makes sense, is not disruptive.
If you just look at his accusations of Grey and MZ perhaps..yeah they don't look too good. But if you look at his attitude and "committal" (sort of speak) it doesn't seem very scumlike.
This is why I don't like Wiggles' case on him. Wiggles' case just hinges on specific things chaoser said or did. Like it deals with chaoser voting Ace based on the RNG bit, or chaoser accusing Grey of just the "VE scumslip" issue, etc. But it doesn't deal with chaoser's behaviour at all, just with little things that he could have easily done as town.
Not only that, but he seems to be playing more like in BBM2 (just flipped town), and not like...let's say Liar Game (where he just lurked and occasionally posted about plans and nothing else). I noticed he played similar in BBM2 when he was still alive, which is what made me think he was most likely town in both (but of course can't use that as an argument since one can't talk about on-going games >_> )
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I also liked how he backed off Greymist.... but then he goes right back onto him. Yes, the time that Chaoser allotted Greymist passes(he gave him X amount of time to step up his game), but in that time Chaoser makes no attempt to move his focus off greymist, or to look for scum elsewhere. In fact, if you read his filter chronologically he never really skips a beat in his Greymist condemnation.
I also don't really mind his RNG stuff at all, even though it's a bit strange. If anything, it's the strangeness that makes it seem townie, as it had potential to throw unnecessary suspicion on him, yet he did it anyways. Generally scum avoid stuff like that.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
MZ's fail post was saying that he found VE scummy but didn't want to lynch him because of previous mislynches.
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On June 15 2012 08:06 Radfield wrote: I also liked how he backed off Greymist.... but then he goes right back onto him. Yes, the time that Chaoser allotted Greymist passes(he gave him X amount of time to step up his game), but in that time Chaoser makes no attempt to move his focus off greymist, or to look for scum elsewhere. In fact, if you read his filter chronologically he never really skips a beat in his Greymist condemnation.
I also don't really mind his RNG stuff at all, even though it's a bit strange. If anything, it's the strangeness that makes it seem townie, as it had potential to throw unnecessary suspicion on him, yet he did it anyways. Generally scum avoid stuff like that.
Hmm, I see he did back off Grey, but still thought he was scum because Grey didn't actually contribute. I don't find anything inconsistent there, he'd still be suspicious of Grey (I was suspicious of him as well even though I "backed off", you can see I had my vote on Greymist the whole time as well), but he stopped harrassing him like I did.
Yes, I suppose he didn't really make attempt to search scum elsewhere (even though he said he'd be ok with a MZ/BB/Wiggles lynch)...but the other stuff still makes me think he's town.
On June 15 2012 08:07 Radfield wrote: MZ's fail post was saying that he found VE scummy but didn't want to lynch him because of previous mislynches.
Didn't that happen later though?
Palmar posting about MZ's "fail": http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=9#172
chaoser posting about said "fail": http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=12#223
The MZ "fail" you talk about: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=14#272
All those are in cronological order, the mention of the "fail" happens first, then chaoser mentions it again, then MZ makes that post you mentioned.
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I think we very likely have a chaoser/hesmyrr scumteam.
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Wiggles wrote of chaoser: First, he did that weird thing with the RNG. I have no idea how that was supposed to work though, because RNG doesn't work with just someone posting a number and saying that's who we're lynching. But, after not enough people supported him, and I called him out on it, he says that it was for pressure and to see how Ace reacted. That sounds silly though, because the pressure would always be weak, and Ace didn't back off RNG but Chaoser still pushed him for it. Like I said, false pressure.
Second, I don't understand his initial case on Grey at all. I don't know what he means by "you show no suspicion to the usage of terms", but I guess he's saying that he's not suspicious of different names and that makes him scummy? But this is an iGrok game. I lost Sleeper Cell I because I lynched a guy for having a green bolded name when no one else did. I learned my lesson, and I know iGrok has done similar things in lots of his games since then with regards to flavour and role name, because flavour hunting is just stupid. So, it makes sense for GreY not to necessarily question that they have different names, which makes Chaoser's accusation weird and off-base. Then he calls out GreY for wanting to lynch me and not MZ. The thing is though, there's nothing stopping GreY from thinking I made a bad post even if MZ made a worse post, so that's not really a valid for saying he's scum. Just because something is worse than something else doesn't mean that other thing can't still be bad (On a side note, I don't think my post was bad, this is from GreY's PoV ). So again, I don't like Chaoser's reasoning for voting GreY.
Third, Chaoser didn't change his vote from GreY to MZ. There wasn't enough support for the GreY lynch it seemed, and the votes between Palmar and MZ were very close. Chaoser said he'd prefer an MZ lynch after a GreY lynch, and that he thought Palmar was playing well. However, he never ended up changing his vote to ensure someone he thought was scummy would get lynched instead of someone he thought was playing well. That stinks.
On your first point, I kinda took that as a joke - most everyone (at least in this game) knows that one person just picking a number doesn't work. It's for that reason that I took his screengrab of random.org and vote of Ace as a joke. I mean, obviously that's subjective, but that's just how I took it. I didn't find anything scummy about this, as we were all trolling a little bit at the beginning of the game (except you Wiggles, you're always super-serious. )
On your second point, that depends on the player. Palmar caught me as scum in AC because of how I was overlooking blatently scummy things by people and calling others out for less scummy things. That being said, I'm not sure I'd classify someone like GreY as one you can catch in that manner. If he'd called out like Palmar or Radfield for this same thing, I'd be more inclined to take the accusation seriously - but for GreY....he could just be overlooking it. No offense intended GreY, I just haven't seen you post really good results in a game...if I'm mistaken let me know.
I agree with you that this looks like an odd coming from chaoser. It feels like stretching to make something scummy.
On your third point, this could be inactivity or it could be something more sinister. I mean, if he's town and was genuinely suspicious of GreY, the votes have been so close the last couple of lynches that his one vote could have been all it took to get GreY lynched. I don't really see this as alignment-indicative.
So the question becomes: did chaoser REALLY find GreY suspicious? To answer this, I'm going to filter chaoser. You think no, right Wiggles?
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Maybe I'm biased because chaoser did almost the same things I did (find Grey suspicious, back off him but still kept his vote on him, didn't actually try to "find" another lynch candidate since he'd still prefer a Grey lynch, keep his vote on Grey, etc).
Although I didn't think MZ was scum and supposedly he did, but still I don't find him suspicious for that because it's almost exactly what I did.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Wiggles looks pretty decent. His early play, while neutral, is fine. His activity also picks up when he said it would, which is a point in his favor.
Everything Day 2 and onward I like, and I see very little that points to him being scum.
I checked back to my notes from PYP:Insane, and my suspicions basically boiled down to him playing very neutral(he was town).
As far as the Chaoser case, I think I've commented on all the important points already. I particularly like this point though:
It doesn't matter that MZ flipped town, because he wouldn't have known it at the time unless he was scum. I'm saying that a townie would have changed their vote when they saw their first candidate wasn't getting lynched in order to get their second scum candidate lynched and to avoid the lynch of someone they think is playing well/town. He doesn't do that though. That way he doesn't take any of the heat for mislynching MZ. He avoids responsibility completely, while looking like he did something on Day 1. He said MZ was his second choice, but he never voted for him, so there's nothing to actually hold him to that read.
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Hmm....well, I think we can all agree on these things though:
1)Today we lynch Hesmyrr 2)We should patiently wait for chaoser to come back and express his thoughts, but not forget about him if he doesn't. 3)Maybe chaoser does fail to vote and gets modkilled, so you guys get your wish.
Okay going to gym be back in 2 or so hours
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
You're right Gonzaw. I fail on the fail post.
However, the point still stands that the comparison makes no sense, as the two posts in question(Wiggles and MZ) completely contrast each other in their directness.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Upon further review, I don't think Chaoser's activity level can really be used as a strike against him. In PYP:Insane he was quite inactive as town, which came immediately on the heels of a town game where he ripped it up. IN PYP:Interesting he was scum, yet was fairly active both in the thread and in PMs on Day 0/Day 1(though he might have only been active in his own defense, I can't remember).
At any rate, the crux of a case against Chaoser is not due to his inactivity.
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Yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking Rad - chaoser is like RoL or BC in that they're likely to lurk the fuck out of whatever alignment they get.
I'm taking my daughter to the sprayground + Show Spoiler +Have you guys seen these things? They're badass and I'm shitty they didn't have them when I was young... and I'm bringing my phone to filter chaoser. My interaction with the thread will be limited, but I'll be watching.
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No yeah I'm okay with killing chooser X(
How do you guys wanna handle this?
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