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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Actually in his case I don't really disagree in generalities because he does similar things as town. The nub of the matter is that it is ALL he does. I could quote several super-long posts where he does it. But says he is too lazy to filter and analyse. That's an inherent scummy contradiction. | ||
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Meapak_Ziphh
United States6786 Posts
On June 12 2012 22:59 marvellosity wrote: Meapak, I meant gonzaw himself said that plans/setup speculation were a null tell. Actually in his case I don't really disagree in generalities because he does similar things as town. The nub of the matter is that it is ALL he does. I could quote several super-long posts where he does it. But says he is too lazy to filter and analyse. That's an inherent scummy contradiction. Alright then, the refusal to do analysis is certainly pretty bad. As for plans, I don't actually recall playing a game with gonzaw as town. Have any prerequisite reading I could do? Probably would help to take a look at it to make my final decision. Actually I think gonzaw should name the game so I see something that he personally believes is representative of his town play. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
I'm more than happy for him provide his own best representative of course. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On June 12 2012 23:08 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Alright then, the refusal to do analysis is certainly pretty bad. As for plans, I don't actually recall playing a game with gonzaw as town. Have any prerequisite reading I could do? Probably would help to take a look at it to make my final decision. Actually I think gonzaw should name the game so I see something that he personally believes is representative of his town play. gonzaw definitly is the kind of townie that wants to be in controle. A little bit like palmar but way more paranoid without having the funny stuff palmar recently does. So yeah as town he forces people to talk about stuff HE wants to talk about as well to a point were he's shitting up the hread incredibly bad if people refuse to do that. I don't know if he actually does a lot of plans as town but it would certainly fit the general scheme so that's not indicating for me at all, but the incredible amount of omgus and unwillingness to argue and analyse is. As mentioned several times: This is a fast game, a really fast game, no matter if we get people to do what we said (no ninja-shots). Even the op says so and instead of doing something he basicly says the discussion we have had so far is not worth analyzing. Those two "facts" just don't add up as a townie mindset. | ||
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MrZentor
United States1648 Posts
Originally, I was leaning toward Gonzaw being scum, but his posts have gotten more townie. However, he's still the most suspicious person, so I agree that we should have him shoot. If we can't find an optimal person to shoot, I would encourage him to shoot into risk.nuke, Kenpachi, and payl. Obviously we wouldn't allow him to choose who he shoots. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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Dirkzor
Denmark1944 Posts
On June 12 2012 23:17 MrZentor wrote: RoL is most likely miller, as I doubt the mafia would make up something like that; the only suspicious thing is that now he appears exactly like a normal mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), we might want to kill him in the future if we don't kill anybody who has the gun stealing role. Originally, I was leaning toward Gonzaw being scum, but his posts have gotten more townie. However, he's still the most suspicious person, so I agree that we should have him shoot. If we can't find an optimal person to shoot, I would encourage him to shoot into risk.nuke, Kenpachi, and payl. Obviously we wouldn't allow him to choose who he shoots. I'm confused... You want to shoot Gonsaw as he is the most suspecion to you right now. But you also want to shoot one of the lurker if we fail to find an optimal person to shoot. Isn't gonsaw an optimal person if you find him scummy? Or are you just covering your ass in case we do end up shooting gonsaw and he flips scum so you can say "Yeah I was totally supporting that lynch!" | ||
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MrZentor
United States1648 Posts
If you really want to shoot me or something at least wait 24 hours into D1 so you don't waste the whole day and so we can put some sense into you. His insistence on waiting until most of the day passes before shooting. I personally don't find people's opinion on certain plans (or policy lynches, etc) alignment telling at all. So no matter how much someone talks and talks about plans, I can't analyze their alignment based on their behaviour, if everybody else is discussing plans as well. This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say. + Show Spoiler + What if all of us claim if we have a gun to shoot or not? Like said before, most blue roles are not that strong (the good ones don't know their sanity); but the VT/Miller roles are the strongest since they control the "lynch", and are our only way to win this game (other than a random vigilante out there). I think they did it like this: 1)Everybody claims if they have a gun or not 2)The people that claimed they have a gun, take turns each day to shoot the most scummy one from the pool of the guys that don't have a gun Here we can use that "random thingy" site Palmar made for iGrok's game (if someone's good enough to copy the script and shit, maybe make it public): Each day we make a list of all the people that claimed they have a gun, and randomize it. That way we randomly choose who to shoot from that list. That way mafia can't try to fake-claim that they have a gun and manipulate their way to never shoot at all, because the process of choosing who to shoot is random so if it's their turn to shoot they can't get away with it (this will disencourage scum fake-claiming they have a gun). This is the beauty from the plan: Yes, all the VTs/Millers will be outed for SK/scum, and so will the blues.... ...however the blues will be mostly intact and survive the whole game. Why? Because in the pool of blues most of the scum (goon and RBers, etc) lurk. If they shoot blues at night, that pool is reduced so they have more chances of being shot at day. Not only that, but because of what I said earlier they'll most likely shoot VTs (check that post I made). So blues are free to make their actions at night (not all of them can be RBed, plus they shouldn't claim their roles either) to help us with what we can, while we systematically kill those scum in their group. Once we kill all scum in the "blue" group (3 of them right?), we are set, leave the rest of those blues alone and take a look at the VT/Miller claims to get the GF and the SK. Since only non-gunners will get shot at day, and only gunners will get shot at night by scum, the blues in the non-gunners group can use: 1)Their medic saves on the gunners 2)Their watcher/tracker/cop checks on the gunners 1)Because those are the only ones getting shot at night, so they have a greater chance to save them 2)Because once all the scum from the non-gunners are killed, we need to find the SK/GF. If blues check those players, then it's more likely they can find the SK/GF for us so we have it easier later. That was the way it would work in the 1st game. Now that I think about it the "SK or scum can steal guns at night" thing if RoL says the truth can change it a little bit What do you guys think? Any way to improve it if it's worth it? Or is it unworthy? This is an excellent plan, which I believe would give town a great chance of winning; I doubt a mafia would suggest it. Also, something I found along the way. Pretty sure 1) We'll run out of things to say or just go in circles 2) Ace will probably put a limit on like 48 hours and then we just "no shot" and move straight to night 3) Someone will probably get trigger happy and shoot anyway. I want gonzaw to shoot. We already had 24 hours of discussion since night 0 happened, we've got our suspicions. Let's go gonzaw, chop chop. Chaoser wanted Gonzaw to shoot at dawn, effectively killing 24 hours of discussion. That's exactly what scum would want to happen. | ||
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MrZentor
United States1648 Posts
On June 12 2012 23:37 Dirkzor wrote: I'm confused... You want to shoot Gonsaw as he is the most suspecion to you right now. But you also want to shoot one of the lurker if we fail to find an optimal person to shoot. Isn't gonsaw an optimal person if you find him scummy? Or are you just covering your ass in case we do end up shooting gonsaw and he flips scum so you can say "Yeah I was totally supporting that lynch!" You misread what I said. I wanted to have Gonzaw shoot somebody else. | ||
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Dirkzor
Denmark1944 Posts
On June 12 2012 23:41 MrZentor wrote: You misread what I said. I wanted to have Gonzaw shoot somebody else. Oh... Carry on.... | ||
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MrZentor
United States1648 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On June 12 2012 23:40 MrZentor wrote: His insistence on waiting until most of the day passes before shooting. This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say. + Show Spoiler + What if all of us claim if we have a gun to shoot or not? Like said before, most blue roles are not that strong (the good ones don't know their sanity); but the VT/Miller roles are the strongest since they control the "lynch", and are our only way to win this game (other than a random vigilante out there). I think they did it like this: 1)Everybody claims if they have a gun or not 2)The people that claimed they have a gun, take turns each day to shoot the most scummy one from the pool of the guys that don't have a gun Here we can use that "random thingy" site Palmar made for iGrok's game (if someone's good enough to copy the script and shit, maybe make it public): Each day we make a list of all the people that claimed they have a gun, and randomize it. That way we randomly choose who to shoot from that list. That way mafia can't try to fake-claim that they have a gun and manipulate their way to never shoot at all, because the process of choosing who to shoot is random so if it's their turn to shoot they can't get away with it (this will disencourage scum fake-claiming they have a gun). This is the beauty from the plan: Yes, all the VTs/Millers will be outed for SK/scum, and so will the blues.... ...however the blues will be mostly intact and survive the whole game. Why? Because in the pool of blues most of the scum (goon and RBers, etc) lurk. If they shoot blues at night, that pool is reduced so they have more chances of being shot at day. Not only that, but because of what I said earlier they'll most likely shoot VTs (check that post I made). So blues are free to make their actions at night (not all of them can be RBed, plus they shouldn't claim their roles either) to help us with what we can, while we systematically kill those scum in their group. Once we kill all scum in the "blue" group (3 of them right?), we are set, leave the rest of those blues alone and take a look at the VT/Miller claims to get the GF and the SK. Since only non-gunners will get shot at day, and only gunners will get shot at night by scum, the blues in the non-gunners group can use: 1)Their medic saves on the gunners 2)Their watcher/tracker/cop checks on the gunners 1)Because those are the only ones getting shot at night, so they have a greater chance to save them 2)Because once all the scum from the non-gunners are killed, we need to find the SK/GF. If blues check those players, then it's more likely they can find the SK/GF for us so we have it easier later. That was the way it would work in the 1st game. Now that I think about it the "SK or scum can steal guns at night" thing if RoL says the truth can change it a little bit What do you guys think? Any way to improve it if it's worth it? Or is it unworthy? This is an excellent plan, which I believe would give town a great chance of winning; I doubt a mafia would suggest it. Also, something I found along the way. Chaoser wanted Gonzaw to shoot at dawn, effectively killing 24 hours of discussion. That's exactly what scum would want to happen. note to self for next time playing as mafia: Agree to something 99% of the thread has agreed to (well kind of, noone is stupid enough to say "I don't want to wait 24 hours. I want to shoot 5 mins into the game!!!!"), say you're not able to read something out of something so early and you'd therefore like to not analyze a thing yet and when being called scummy say nothing but "me not scummy! You scummy or SK!". Apparently that's interpreted as genuine townie these days. | ||
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MrZentor
United States1648 Posts
Check your facts. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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MrZentor
United States1648 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Because clearly no-one else agreed, EVERYONE else wants the day to go on quite long. This had already been established. It seems evident that's the case. No point in scum pushing an alternative agenda that wouldn't be accepted by town. | ||
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rastaban
United States2294 Posts
On June 12 2012 23:40 MrZentor wrote: His insistence on waiting until most of the day passes before shooting. This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say. + Show Spoiler + What if all of us claim if we have a gun to shoot or not? Like said before, most blue roles are not that strong (the good ones don't know their sanity); but the VT/Miller roles are the strongest since they control the "lynch", and are our only way to win this game (other than a random vigilante out there). I think they did it like this: 1)Everybody claims if they have a gun or not 2)The people that claimed they have a gun, take turns each day to shoot the most scummy one from the pool of the guys that don't have a gun Here we can use that "random thingy" site Palmar made for iGrok's game (if someone's good enough to copy the script and shit, maybe make it public): Each day we make a list of all the people that claimed they have a gun, and randomize it. That way we randomly choose who to shoot from that list. That way mafia can't try to fake-claim that they have a gun and manipulate their way to never shoot at all, because the process of choosing who to shoot is random so if it's their turn to shoot they can't get away with it (this will disencourage scum fake-claiming they have a gun). This is the beauty from the plan: Yes, all the VTs/Millers will be outed for SK/scum, and so will the blues.... ...however the blues will be mostly intact and survive the whole game. Why? Because in the pool of blues most of the scum (goon and RBers, etc) lurk. If they shoot blues at night, that pool is reduced so they have more chances of being shot at day. Not only that, but because of what I said earlier they'll most likely shoot VTs (check that post I made). So blues are free to make their actions at night (not all of them can be RBed, plus they shouldn't claim their roles either) to help us with what we can, while we systematically kill those scum in their group. Once we kill all scum in the "blue" group (3 of them right?), we are set, leave the rest of those blues alone and take a look at the VT/Miller claims to get the GF and the SK. Since only non-gunners will get shot at day, and only gunners will get shot at night by scum, the blues in the non-gunners group can use: 1)Their medic saves on the gunners 2)Their watcher/tracker/cop checks on the gunners 1)Because those are the only ones getting shot at night, so they have a greater chance to save them 2)Because once all the scum from the non-gunners are killed, we need to find the SK/GF. If blues check those players, then it's more likely they can find the SK/GF for us so we have it easier later. That was the way it would work in the 1st game. Now that I think about it the "SK or scum can steal guns at night" thing if RoL says the truth can change it a little bit What do you guys think? Any way to improve it if it's worth it? Or is it unworthy? This is an excellent plan, which I believe would give town a great chance of winning; I doubt a mafia would suggest it. Also, something I found along the way. Chaoser wanted Gonzaw to shoot at dawn, effectively killing 24 hours of discussion. That's exactly what scum would want to happen. Regarding the plan of guns and not guns claiming, don't you think even the mafia without guns will claim they have guns (maybe 1 won't) so we just end up shooting all our blues for a few days? We don't know how many blues town has so we won't even know if mafia is the group. I don't see how that plan helps anything it isn't like the goons are going to admit they have no guns. We end up have some people claiming to have guns, who don't have guns, but how do we decide who it is? We are back to square 1 but now they know which townies have guns and who doesn't so they can shoot acordingly. We just give them even more information while we are just as confused as before. Unless I am missing something this is a very bad plan, plus we should worry less about plans and more about about posts. I agree Chaoser trying to push the shot so fast was very very bad. Chaoser, why did you want to stifle so much discussion? | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
On June 13 2012 00:01 MrZentor wrote: Do you agree that Chaoser is scummy? I'm ok with gonzaw shooting me right now. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
why are you ok with that? | ||
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