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I never said I wouldn't vote to kill her off. In fact that's where I'm leaning now (lynching a lurker). At this point I don't love any of the cases we have developed. My post was directed at Milton in regards to the elaborate case he was making against a lurker.
In response to your specific points Milton, really the only thing of substance is the timing. A busy player who's name pops up is going to feel extra incentive to chime in. This is true if the player is either town or scum.
Any analysis of content is futile, as there is basically no content. She could easily be half-assing it by popping in to the thread, taking the current temperature, and accuse the most scummy person at the time. This could also be lurking scum. If she isn't actively pursuing her win condition, then she's either a useless townie, or is lurking scum and actually IS pursuing her win condition. Either way, the answer is to lynch. This is obvious, and it struck me as strange that you would write up a huge post about it.
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Xatalos asked me how I felt about Unforgiven in light of his defense.
I'm leaving my FoS where it is. When he finally had a little time to scum hunt, he pointed the finger at suki. It was a novel idea at the time, but to me it lacked effort. Look at sciberbia's post compared to his. Now, not all accusations have to have a big word count to be effective, but his effort just looks lazy. Does the reasoning he laid out really warrant a vote? Not to me.
He says Suki never pressured anyone, which is ironic because a big part of sciberbia's case is that he bandwagon pressured a lot of people. Whether he was first on the scene or not, he has pressured milton, unforgiven, vivix, and superouman. Saying he hasn't pressured anyone is just false.
His case is just 4 short points. The first I just discussed. Past that, his other points are a short filter, safe day 1 play, and some nonsense about taunting cattivik to butter him up for a day 2 vote. It's just not a lot to go on. Keep that in mind.
In his defense posts, he says we should discuss everything and nothing at the same time. Don't throw FoS around, or votes. Don't use meta arguments. What is his idea of hunting scum? Those two things are very important tools for applying pressure. He says we need structure, but never says what that is outside from some leader emerging to tell us what to do. His message remains totally unclear. Wait, be smart about scumhunting, and let people talk...but don't use half the tools in your arsenal to get them to talk.
He doesn't follow his own rules. He posts a 'meh' case on Suki and then votes right away. If he was following his own rules, I'd think he'd at least wait for a defense before throwing his vote around.
Bottom line is I like that he has started to make some effort to hunt scum, and I realize that he has had to spend a lot of time defending himself, but there are still so many inconsistencies in his play that my FoS stays put. I will keep watching.
On refresh I see there's a lot of other stuff going on right now so I'd better hurry up and post!
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Ange777,
Like heist said, the only way I think you are going to save yourself is to do some actual, hardcore analysis on the game so far. You didn't give yourself a lot of time, so the odds are against you posting something that's going to be good enough.
Stop defending yourself and hunt scum.
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Milton,
Your accusations on me are accurate. I realized earlier that I have spent too much time considering other cases, and the players they involve. In my view, helping defend someone I think is town, and lending or subtracting weight to ongoing cases corresponding to my own reads is pro-town, but I need to hit the filters and work a lot harder on finding scum. I'll share my results as soon as I can.
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Just a short note while I'm reading...
sciberbia, the issue that is causing Ange to lurk will still be there after today. She claims she will post more, but saying and doing are not the same.
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##Vote Ange777
I'm satisfied with a lurker lynch in light of the fact that there just aren't any other strong cases at the moment.
Ange seems capable of doing analysis, but there is no guarantee she will devote more time in the future. Could be busy townie or lurking scum.
Superouman is just a rogue vote, could be clueless towny or tricksy scum.
I wish we could lynch both at once, but Ange777 is a start.
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On June 02 2012 04:06 Ange777 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 03:47 s0Lstice wrote: Ange seems capable of doing analysis, but there is no guarantee she will devote more time in the future. Could be busy townie or lurking scum. I hereby proclaim that I will dedicate the weekend to playing Mafia!
Don't spend your whole weekend on the computer but yes, more is definitely needed.
The analysis on Suki was good. Especially good considering it was rushed. I spent time in his filter when sciberbia posted his case on him, and saw a fair amount of the same things he saw. I added a few more points to it, as I thought (and still do) that there is something there. The point you added is important. Saying you have a sure scum read and not fighting for it when there is ample time is really scummy. I'm not sure why I didn't lock on to this as well; perhaps because I was strongly considering lynching you at the same time he switched his vote to you.
To everyone else, consider now what Ange spending more time here would look like. I think in light of her posts we should strongly consider keeping her alive for the time being.
I want to instead suggest that we return to Suki. Sciberbia, myself, and now Ange have spent some time on the case against him, and I think it stands up pretty well.
I see now that sciberbia has posted about voting for Suki. My answer is yes, I will vote for him.
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This is chaos. We are badly split up right now. The only chance we have at a majority now as I see it is Suki.
Ange777 made some good points about him, but then flung shit at everybody who continued to question her. I asked for analysis, there was enough time and plenty of content in the past to comment on. Instead you made a snap judgement on unforgiven and then basically insta tunneled him.
I hate how this day is ending. Heist, if Suki flips scum, you're in deep. You came in late and changed your vote to another pointless vote, splitting us further.
I'm in an awkward position because I've suspected both Suki and Unforgiven. Vivax makes a good point about suspecting both being logically unsound. With that said, I'm not feeling too great about Suki being lynched, as my read on unforgiven is stronger.
I just don't see the Unforgiven lynch happening today. It has to be Suki, here and now, or nobody.
## unvote ## Vote: Suki
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On June 02 2012 06:37 heist wrote:
I changed bacause I was not very condifent in either a Suki or Ange77 lynch and my Superouman lynch was useless. You agree that Unforgiven seems more scummy. I don't like how you are giving up to commit to a worse read.
That's cool, because I don't like how you don't like it. What fantasy world are you living in where an Unforgiven lynch is possible right now? If I vote with my stronger read, there is a serious threat of a no-lynch. I choose Suki over this alternative.
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Golden not voting means ShiaoPi is in does it not?
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Rock and roll. Sorry about your buddy Heist.
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Have a look at the events before that lynch. Heist comes in at the 11th hour to to push hard on Unforgiven, and before that he really didn't do much. I need to look more at the filters, as this is more of a gut reaction, but I feel my direction is good.
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Welcome ShiaoPi. Another familiar face is a good thing.
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Vivax, an important note about Heist defending Ange777. He did so AFTER she switched over to attacking Unforgiven. Look at the times. + Show Spoiler +On June 02 2012 04:37 Ange777 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 04:29 Unforgiven_ve wrote:This extended mayority lynch will fuck us pretty bad, mafia are theonly ones benefiting from this i think... This new case (and votes) against Ange777... i did told you mafia would come at last hours for some activity uh? She's is now on my list, but suki remains number one, specially after this On June 02 2012 01:45 suki wrote: I feel that lynching unforgiven at this point would give us a sure mafia lynch, but from the tone of the thread it doesn't seem like it will pass. I'll put off this discussion until day two.
Ange777 already has four votes on him, and by lynching him we rid ourselves of a lurker. To guarantee a Day 1 lynch I will vote for Ange777.
##Unvote Unforgiven_ve ##Vote Ange777 Same random blind vote agains a case someone's else stated For me, suki is still number 1, if Ange777 flips red this will just convice me even more, i bet they are wishing for a NL. I will change my vote before deadline if neccesary, i still have a couple hour to burn. As always, if anyone has any question please ask Okay ... seems like I have to step back from a Unforgiven defense ... What are you implying here? That if I flipped red you would be even more convinced that Suki is scum? If you truly think both of us scum there would be no way Suki wants to vote for me. He could easily stick to his vote on you and claim that he is still 100% convinced of you being mafia. High chance for other people to vote for me anyway, so why would he have to vote for me, make himself suspicious of vote switching and bandwaggoning? Furthermore, losing a scum buddy on day 1 would be awful for him. He would indeed prefer a NL instead of my lynch and therefore NOT vote for me! You just made yourself highly suspicious!
+ Show Spoiler +On June 02 2012 05:37 heist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 04:29 Unforgiven_ve wrote:Danm...i thought this language thing would not be a problem, i see im mistaken... I see my first post still is a problem for some players, i will try to summarize my response (for the last time) taking this post... he states that you shouldn't use past games as a guide, yet he references two past games in the same post. He states that blue people shouldn't roleclaim, and yet they should roleclaim (as a last resort!). He states that mafia is more active during the last hours of the day, yet he slips in that he'll save his vote for the last hours as well, as if by stating it early he alleviates all suspicions on his actions later on. He's really against bandwagons, yet he asks for a town leader for people to follow. when i say "dont use past game as a guide" i mean personally, dont look for the other games some especific player has played (¿sp?), they can change their way of playing very easily. I just had played 1 game, blue roleclaiming at the end of the game is pretty obvious for me. I said i will save my vote for the last triying to show the town how is my style" of play, like i said, watching all the post, getting information, etc...but i see maybe i was wrong, one should adapt to the way the TOWN plays. When i say town leader i ment someone who are good at making indepth anaysis and posts, who could get people thinking, who can sumarize 10 pages in one post... i think i did not made it very clear, but for a mafia this would be VERY hard to do, thats what i ment when i said "structure" just one or a couple of good players, not someone we will blindly follow...i forgot im in a newbie game ;D. Now to all the new information... __________________________________________________________________________ This extended mayority lynch will fuck us pretty bad, mafia are theonly ones benefiting from this i think... This new case (and votes) against Ange777... i did told you mafia would come at last hours for some activity uh? She's is now on my list, but suki remains number one, specially after this On June 02 2012 01:45 suki wrote: I feel that lynching unforgiven at this point would give us a sure mafia lynch, but from the tone of the thread it doesn't seem like it will pass. I'll put off this discussion until day two.
Ange777 already has four votes on him, and by lynching him we rid ourselves of a lurker. To guarantee a Day 1 lynch I will vote for Ange777.
##Unvote Unforgiven_ve ##Vote Ange777 Same random blind vote agains a case someone's else started. s0Lstice: + Show Spoiler +On June 02 2012 02:37 s0Lstice wrote: Xatalos asked me how I felt about Unforgiven in light of his defense.
I'm leaving my FoS where it is. When he finally had a little time to scum hunt, he pointed the finger at suki. It was a novel idea at the time, but to me it lacked effort. Look at sciberbia's post compared to his. Now, not all accusations have to have a big word count to be effective, but his effort just looks lazy. Does the reasoning he laid out really warrant a vote? Not to me.
He says Suki never pressured anyone, which is ironic because a big part of sciberbia's case is that he bandwagon pressured a lot of people. Whether he was first on the scene or not, he has pressured milton, unforgiven, vivix, and superouman. Saying he hasn't pressured anyone is just false.
His case is just 4 short points. The first I just discussed. Past that, his other points are a short filter, safe day 1 play, and some nonsense about taunting cattivik to butter him up for a day 2 vote. It's just not a lot to go on. Keep that in mind.
In his defense posts, he says we should discuss everything and nothing at the same time. Don't throw FoS around, or votes. Don't use meta arguments. What is his idea of hunting scum? Those two things are very important tools for applying pressure. He says we need structure, but never says what that is outside from some leader emerging to tell us what to do. His message remains totally unclear. Wait, be smart about scumhunting, and let people talk...but don't use half the tools in your arsenal to get them to talk.
He doesn't follow his own rules. He posts a 'meh' case on Suki and then votes right away. If he was following his own rules, I'd think he'd at least wait for a defense before throwing his vote around.
Bottom line is I like that he has started to make some effort to hunt scum, and I realize that he has had to spend a lot of time defending himself, but there are still so many inconsistencies in his play that my FoS stays put. I will keep watching.
On refresh I see there's a lot of other stuff going on right now so I'd better hurry up and post! ç Some tother time would say you are not good at reading and throw a light insult ;D but at this point of the game i (think?) know is me not knowing how to make a proper post. Im not good at writing long posts thats why i try to resume and point to the precise stuff i find scummy. Suki voted for Ange77 to enforce a day 1 lynch especially since YOU had only a single vote. For me, suki is still number 1, if Ange777 flips red this will just convice me even more, i bet they are wishing for a NL. I will change my vote before deadline if neccesary, i still have a couple hour to burn. As always, if anyone has any question please ask You are literally going after everyone who has found you suspicious. And these are all pretty weak claims. You start going off on Ange77 for "siding with you too strongly"? I think you are taking bandwaggoning a bit too far. She had her own analysis. You somehow tie together both suki and ange77 as mafia scum? What??? You explicitly state that you are going to disregard Solstice and don't bother to defend yourself. I am not completely convinced about Suki and the main accusation right now seems to refer to the switch vote to Ange77. We decided we wanted a day 1 lynch. We needed a majority. Perhaps he wanted to lay down his vote incase he missed the deadline. Bandwaggoning I find is useless accusation in and of itself. In a complete body of work it can greatly support a claim. But we need this majority for a lynch and I can completely see him changing his vote with Unforgiven's case rapidly losing steam. My vote is currently useless. I will be changing to Unforgiven_ve. His recent behavior is really undermining my previous judgment. ##Unvote##Vote: Unforgiven_ve
So no, I don't think I'll be backing off him, thanks though.
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EBWOP: misquoted Ange, in her post at the end is an FoS on Unforgiven
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On June 02 2012 07:38 Unforgiven_ve wrote: Lolz, I rule, bunch of noobs
This is just rude. Cut it out. It takes 7 votes to lynch someone, and you spent the time before the lynch flopping around like a fish out of water, reduced to pleading for votes. It's not our fault you drew so much suspicion for playing like shit.
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This is the last I'm going to say on this. It has nothing to do with this Mafia game. I'm even going to spoiler it. Unforgiven + Show Spoiler +Do you see anybody else here calling other people names? Want to know why it's just you? Because you're being an asshole. Assholes insult people, and then tell them not to take it personal, like that makes it ok. This being a game doesn't give you license to be condescending and disrespectful. In fact, it's the opposite. If you want respect, you show respect. I can't speak for everyone else, but for me, you have made this game less fun with your recent posts.
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EBWOP: sorry zelblade, didnt refresh before posting that. if you want me to edit it out I will
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Concerning Heist, I want to get this case out there on the off chance that I am the N1 kill.
Lets have a look at what he has been doing to hunt scum:
+ Show Spoiler +For most of day 1, he has had one target, and that is Vivix. His first accusation against him contained the following points: a perceived contradiction, and his views/defense of sciberbia. This is the contradiction. Vivix says he sees the reason behind sciberbia's no-lynch argument, but still prefers to lynch. Seeing the logic and worthyness of considering of an idea, but still coming down on the other side of it is not a contradiction, provided you supply the reasons for doing so. Vivix does; he says he still wants to lynch to get rid of lurkers right off the bat or act on a strong scum read, and get lynch information earlier rather than later. His views and defense on sciberbia have been covered a lot, so I'll just say one thing about this. Vivix has been steadfast in his convictions consistently. At the time, the sample size was small and no pattern had developed yet, so the suspicion is warranted. As the game goes on however, nobody should be surprised that Vivix was so sure on his first town read. He is consistently steadfast in all of his opinions. Moving on. He posts some filler before addressing Vivix again. The filler is basically asking Eishi_Ki to clarify his thoughts on Vivix, asks Vivix to post more, and pressures the lurkers. Nothing really scummy here, he is just doing due diligence on his case. His second address to Vivix has one repeated point and one new one: Vivix' sure read on sciberbia, and his hasty vote on Eishi_Ki. His read on sciberbia I've talked about already...his vote on Eishi_Ki represented his first scum hunting target. He went after him full force and voted. Again, these are consistent with Vivix' aggressive play. He defends a town read aggressively, and pursues a scum read aggressively. Next he addresses someone new, and its Unforgiven. He chimes in with his thoughts, which is fine. It's the current subject matter. He uses a lot of words to say that he agrees on the suspicions, but will reserve judgement. It's a very safe stance. He follows this up with further safe pressure on the lurkers. His third address to Vivix. He again uses a lot of words to say basically: I don't agree that your high activity and extremeness makes you absolutely town, and you may be doing it to obscure the scummy things you do. This is trumped up WIFOM + Show Spoiler +Vivix as scum thinks, I'll be careful but still contribute. But wait! That is what they are expecting! I'll be aggressive to throw them off my trail. But wait, maybe they are expecting me to expect that so I'll be more careful. But wait! etc etc There's a reason constant aggression reads as town: because in more cases than not, it is town. His fourth address to Vivix. He harps again on Vivix' opinion of sciberbia. He keeps driving this point, and damns him for finding a townie and not hunting scum. Except....Vivix has been hunting his top scum read: Eishi_Ki. This just makes no sense. Vivix scum hunt was aggressive and obvious. There is no excuse for ignoring it in this context. You know who else kept harping on Vivix' opinion of sciberbia? SukiSomething else Suki did was to drop his main suspicion in favor of another target. Heist does this too, stating that he is giving Vivix the benefit of the doubt, and then votes for a lurker. Not the lurker that has had the most buzz going for a policy lynch, but Superouman. Essentially a wasted vote. In summary: -Pursues case on Vivix on the basis of three weak point -his fast read and defense of sciberbia -WIFOM on how his aggression is a scum ruse -spending time confirming townies and not hunting scum, even though he is -Only other scum hunting is lurker pressure, and 'wait and see' on Unforgiven -Drops his main read on the basis of 'giving the benefit of the doubt' -votes for a lurker that had no policy lynch buzz as of yet
Events surrounding the lynch: + Show Spoiler +I'll start here, when the votes counted thusly: + Show Spoiler +Day 1 Votecount
Sciberbia (1): Miltonkram, Superouman
Eishi_Ki: Vivax
Unforgiven_ve: Xatalos, Suki
Suki (2): Unforgiven_ve, Sciberbia
Ange777 (5): Miltonkram, Vivax, Xatalos, Eshi_Ki, suki
Superouman (1): Heist This is shortly after Ange shows up. She takes the time to defend herself some and promises a scum read soon. While she is away doing that, sciberbia makes a post trying to organize everyone onto one person, and the votes on Ange go to 6 when I vote. Ange comes back and posts her read on Suki. It is solid, compelling, and, as we know now, dead on. She votes Suki right away, giving him 3 votes. Xatalos responds that he likes her contribution, and sciberbia comes back trying to illustrate how lynching suki is the best option for us as a group based on our stated convictions. Unforgiven chimes in to reinforce his Suki vote. I mention as well that her case is pretty good, and combined with all else, would draw my vote if he was our choice. The atmosphere at was pretty anti-Suki, and only getting worse. With Ange posting a very solid scum read, and a couple people suggesting she should live. If this goes further, Suki would definitely replace Ange as the consensus choice. Now Ange pursues Unforgiven, and pretty hard too, dropping a quick FoS. Xatalos follows up with his earlier suspicions and votes for him. This is a shake and bake counter movement to the building case on Suki. While this is going on, Suki draws another vote from Milton. That makes 4. This is when Heist enters, when Suki is in a lot of danger, and there is a counter-movement swelling. He jumps all over Unforgiven. He went from non-commital on Unforgiven to all out war without any in-between, right at the time when the case was countering Suki's. He flat out yells at Vivix to not vote for Suki. He removes his vote on Superouman citing it as useless, only to place it on another useless case that had the third most votes. The only conceivable use it has is to stop the lynch of Suki. With 12 minutes left, he switches to Suki once it is clear that he is the consensus choice. This gave us majority on Suki, but Xatalos had already agreed that he would vote to ensure a lynch vs a no-lynch if it came to it, so it was going to happen anyway. What it also does is give him some deniability when Suki flipped scum. Not a lot, but some. In summary: -swoops in when the pressure on Suki is getting bad -pursues a useless counter-case vigorously against a player who he has been ambivalent about -switches his useless vote from one place to another useless place -was one of the very last to come in to vote for suki
I think he has tied himself pretty strongly to Suki. What do others think about this?
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EBWOP: The in-summary section for the scum hunting portion should read as follows:
In summary: A) Pursues case on Vivix on the basis of three weak points i) his fast read and defense of sciberbia ii) WIFOM on how his aggression is a scum ruse iii) spending time on confirming townies and not hunting scum, even though he is
B) Only other scum hunting is lurker pressure, and a 'wait and see' on Unforgiven
C) Drops his main read on the basis of 'giving the benefit of the doubt'
D) Votes for a Lurker that had no policy lynch buzz as of yet
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