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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On June 19 2012 08:16 Probulous wrote: Hmmm, that is going to be difficult to argue. Alternatively, you look at the way the buses took place and try to determine if he has knowledge that the people he is pushing are scum. Most of the time, busing your entire team puts you way too far behind to have a chance late game, however, in this game there were enough mislynches that he stood a decent chance. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
 edit: like, I didn't come into this game thinking "lol i'm gonna bus my whole team". I went with what I thought was optimal play at the time | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On June 19 2012 08:26 marvellosity wrote: Correct, in this particular instance having plenty of confirmed town helped me out a shit-ton. Imagine I went through say the last 2 nights surviving while a bunch of random other dudes died, but I somehow lived. At some point the question is "why is he alive?". But as there were so many confirmed townies I avoided that fate That is my problem and that is why it will be hard to argue. Assuming I am end gamed and so in a position to argue this point, surely you could turn the arguement around and say "Well, you're alive. You must be scum." I fail to see how that is a convincing argument. It seems like a free kill for mafia. Step 1: Bus entire team but play a little scummy Step 2: Keep one obvious townie alive till end game Step 3: Call him out for not dying Step 4: Profit? Is end game a time when being rational is no longer a reasonable position to take? As in why assume the biggest townie around is actually scum bussing his whole team, over scum chose their shots for reasons we cannot know? I'm failing hard here >< | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
edit: because if you 'caught' the whole scumteam the argument can just be thrown back in your face you can't have your cake and eat it too | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On June 19 2012 08:35 Probulous wrote: I fail to see how that is a convincing argument. It seems like a free kill for mafia. Step 1: Bus entire team but play a little scummy Step 2: Keep one obvious townie alive till end game Step 3: Call him out for not dying Step 4: Profit? Is end game a time when being rational is no longer a reasonable position to take? As in why assume the biggest townie around is actually scum bussing his whole team, over scum chose their shots for reasons we cannot know? I'm failing hard here >< In most games if you're busing the entire game, its going to be 12v1 at step three and its going to take more than free kill to win. Even worse, in third party setups, you get shot for looking incredibly townie and don't even have a chance to turn anything into profit. Just remember its always the correct decision to lynch a Radfield who has not been shot by night two. | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On June 19 2012 08:39 kitaman27 wrote: In most games if you're busing the entire game, its going to be 12v1 at step three and its going to take more than free kill to win. Just remember its always the correct decision to lynch a Radfield who has not been shot by night two. Well we'll get to test that theory very soon. Marv, you can play a little scummy by pushing easy miss-lynches. You played me really well this game because you defended VE hard core when I started defending him. To me you were the only one making sense and so naturally you gained points in my book. Then Zealos flipped and you looked even better plus you were right about supersoft. By the time that information was known I had come to same conclusions and so you were my biggest town read. The manason miss-lynch has a lot to do with his terrible play. If you look at it, if maju had been lynched first, would manason have gotten off scott free? I doubt it. So you were not going to be lynched over that. I guess the big play you made was defending VE when you replaced in. It allowed you to legitimately say you came with fresh eyes and don't believe the case (like me). When he flipped you gain a lot of cred which allowed you to hide among the "confirmed" townies but not be too confirmed. It was great play, I am just trying to figure out what I should do next time we play together. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Honestly I thought the VE thing was fairly neutral, bussing Zealos super-early was what helped me really Probability says next time we play together I'm town, so np <3 Edit: I went after manason for 2 reasons, 1) i needed to get a mislynch in between all the scum falling, and 2) i needed to be shown not to be right all the time | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Kita claiming medic removed him from the scum suspect list unless something weird happened the night after. At that point if maju and papanda die back to back you've flipped four relatively new scum. Wiggles was next. The only question mark was the last scum who happened to be marvellosity. Certainly the game was winnable but both the hyaach and manason lynches were really really bad. | ||
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Meapak_Ziphh
United States6786 Posts
On June 19 2012 09:19 wherebugsgo wrote: The manason lynch was awful when there were two better targets in maju and papanda. Kita claiming medic removed him from the scum suspect list unless something weird happened the night after. At that point if maju and papanda die back to back you've flipped four relatively new scum. Wiggles was next. The only question mark was the last scum who happened to be marvellosity. Certainly the game was winnable but both the hyaach and manason lynches were really really bad. idk, even if you remove the hyaach and manason lynches I still have a hard time seeing town win this one. Marvl was just in too good of a position. gg all, ty for hosting grey/sloosh :D | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Also toward lylo you're dealing with the townies who, all game, have been wrong or haven't been reading properly, so it's not likely they'll start to read any time soon. At that point because reading is imperative it's over unless you have a blue. Kudos to marvellosity for staying alive to that point; the hardest part is killing all the scary townies and getting away with it. Thanks again to sloosh and greymist for a great hosting job. Sorry for all those inactives you were forced to modkill/replace. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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EchelonTee
United States5254 Posts
Thanks for hosting Greymist and sloosh, it turned out pretty kewl~ | ||
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jaj22
United Kingdom1376 Posts
On June 19 2012 08:48 Probulous wrote: You played me really well this game because you defended VE hard core when I started defending him. To me you were the only one making sense and so naturally you gained points in my book. This was actually a rather dubious switch from Marv. Earlier in the day, he'd been hedging on VE in a slightly scummy manner. Once the lynch was virtually sealed he switched to throwing suspicion on people for voting VE, while not really pushing the case for an alternate lynch. It's why I didn't give either you or Marv as much credit for day 2 as some players did. Remember when I called for players not on Zealos or VE to switch to Zealos? That's what was needed for a vote switch. There was a bare majority on VE (~16) and about 4 votes on Zealos at the time. No-one was going to break the majority on VE without a serious alternate lynch. Wiggles probably had a better chance of getting a switch with his Maju stunt. Essentially Marv pushed Zealos hard at two points: When the majority opinion was for a lynch on Zealos and Gambit was the alternate lynch, and then again when it was too late to get a lynch on Zealos. That's a pretty soft bus. Note that if Marv hadn't pushed Zealos, he'd have been open to accusations given how he nailed him in MTG. So tactically it was an optimal bus, and you just have to consider whether Marv is a good enough scum player to fake-rant. I think he's proved that previously. Then there's the question of whether the rest of Marv's play was sufficiently townie. He maintains a high activity level, but there was a lot of buddying (and not just the proposal), quite a lot of scum agenda and a generally weak late-game contribution. Nothing particularly damning, but I'd have lynched him before Hyaach or Kenpachi. I think the lesson here is that you have to judge players on their own standards. You shouldn't lynch Kenpachi before Marv just because he never made a case longer than two lines. You shouldn't lynch Hyaach before Marv just because he wasted a day on conspiracy theories. Hell, I called the guy "paranoid loner newbie town" on day 2. Once you factor in players' weaknesses, it's a lot easier to work out whether they're actually scum. And yeah, I made the same mistake on Kitaman. I should have figured that he had a terrible weakness against newbie lurkers  | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On June 19 2012 10:12 jaj22 wrote: And yeah, I made the same mistake on Kitaman. I should have figured that he had a terrible weakness against newbie lurkers hahaha I was just about to post how much trouble I have seperating townie inactives and mafia lurkers, refreshed the thread, and saw this :p Someone wanna explain what they look for? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
I buddy as either alignment And you don't qualify your 'quite a lot of scum agenda' that I was apparently pushing I'll give you a weak late-game but really nothing was going on to be strong about :/ | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5254 Posts
You have the flavor of posters who have really bad ideas. These are the ones who come up with weird plans, really bad claims, or outlandish cases. Here is a good example of this type: + Show Spoiler + Hi everybody! Im the friendly neighbourhood gum on your shoe! Today I come to you with a plan that'll hopefully shed some light on the certainly vile nature of the scum infesting our sacred house...OF GAMBLING! The plan is a simple anonymous poll asking wether your a townie or a scumie. Now in the case of the townie there is no risk whatsoever in voting townie, on acounta a) you are a townie and b) no one can say otherwise cause your voting anonymously. In fact I very much so ask that you don't say which one your voting for or wether or not your even voting at all. All I ask is that if you're a townie vote townie, or don't vote, please don't troll and say your mafia I REPEAT NO TOWNIES VOTE MAFIA, IT SHALL BE THE END OF US ALL!!!!!! This only works if all the townies voting vote townie so please do so if your a townie. If your mafia feel free to vote as well, in fact the whole purpose of this exercise is to see if you as a group abstain from voting, vote as you please, or all vote townie. This is an experiment to study the mafia and I promise to only do this once, so whata ya say newcomers! Watcha gonna be? I'd just likely to repeat one last time there is ABSOLUTELY no way I or anyone else can ascertain your alignment through this vote, so please give it a shot, it might very well teach us something useful. These are the easiest to spot IMO. They will often be called scum by other players with arguments like "that plan is anti-town, so he's scum", or "that player's plans are so bad, they can't be town". This is easily refuted with the logic that a scum noob wouldn't be brash enough to come up with a plan and present it to thread like that. Most newbie scum are more timid and scared; by putting themselves out there like that even with a lolsy plan, it's obvious they are noob town. Then you have the flavor of posters who are very stubborn and unyielding. These are the ones who will remain deadset in a certain mindset, even when confronted with conflicting logic and stuff. Here's an example: ##Vote: prplhz BAAWW I DIDN'T SPEND ENOUGH TIME EXPLAINING MY VOTE. Cry me a fucking river scum. I've suspected this joker since his first post. The last flavor is the trickiest; the newbie townies that are timid and unsure of themselves. They often post big lists of random ass reads, sometimes lurk a lot, and in general seem wishy washy. I can't find a good example of one of these atm, but you should know what I'm talking about. They often get accused because they display general scum traits like "doesn't make a lot of cases", "lurks", etc. The best way to figure these ones out, unfortunately, is probably associative tells. If this player type was scum, they would be very unlikely to bus. I also look and see if their lynch is going way too easily, or if people are making really ill-conceived cases to lynch the person. Things like that smell of an easy mislynch. Also, you just have to try and read their tone and see if their noobiness is genuine. Overall, regular scumhunting techniques still apply to newbie players. The biggest thing you have to ask yourself when reading their filter is "Is this person actually interested in scumhunting?". Even if they are really wrong with their logic, bad =/=scum. With the first player type, it's pretty obvious that they are, even if their method is wrong. With the second type, it is also pretty obvious. For the last, you just have to try and read if their newbiness is genuine, or if they are scared. It also helps to have experience with that particular newbie. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On June 19 2012 10:16 kitaman27 wrote: hahaha I was just about to post how much trouble I have seperating townie inactives and mafia lurkers, refreshed the thread, and saw this :p Someone wanna explain what they look for? what do you mean? | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5254 Posts
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
On June 19 2012 10:35 EchelonTee wrote: how do you tell if a scummy lurker is noob scum or noob town Vigilantes | ||
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jaj22
United Kingdom1376 Posts
On June 19 2012 10:28 marvellosity wrote: jaj; I'd have pushed people on their reasons for voting as either alignment That was the point there. People read your activity there as a town tell, while tactically it's good play for scum unless there's a genuine chance of switching people to a Zealos lynch. On June 19 2012 10:28 marvellosity wrote: And you don't qualify your 'quite a lot of scum agenda' that I was apparently pushing Off the top of my head: - Multiple defenses of Wiggles - Pushing Manason over Papa/Maju - Lumping in Gambit with phagga/cwave - Bad case on Hyaach I think Austin had a higher proportion though Honestly I've seen you play scummier as town, and I can't say I ever had a scum read on you. It was all relative. I doubt I'd have lynched you before 2-1, so it's an academic point. The players left at 3-1 weren't going to lynch you. | ||
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