EPTWhy would I pick Janitor and then deny it. Especially if I was mafia. Hypothetically If I was mafia I would had belived Sentinel was going to pick it so if I were to take it he would confirm that I had it so I could never have used the abillity. But by picking it and denying it (rather then picking any role I wanted) the best thing I could hope for is a 1:1 trade.
Pick Your Power: Redux - Page 37
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
Why would I pick Janitor and then deny it. Especially if I was mafia. Hypothetically If I was mafia I would had belived Sentinel was going to pick it so if I were to take it he would confirm that I had it so I could never have used the abillity. But by picking it and denying it (rather then picking any role I wanted) the best thing I could hope for is a 1:1 trade. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On May 18 2012 04:52 Toadesstern wrote: Would a vig-role without a bullet left return "has a gun" to bullet-bob if he's a town-vig without a bullet left or would he return "has no gun" ? Also I'd say risk is the liar and if he is he's town. which still means: I'd rather not lynch into any of those 3. Sentinel looks good without a doubt, so no lynching that. Risk and Marv are somewhat weird but with Sentinel's action I'm not 100% sure one of them has to be mafia. It could be 1-1 or 2-0 right now, maybe even 0-2 idk. No lynching them unless we have more information and more analysis about them. | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
On May 18 2012 04:52 Toadesstern wrote: Would a vig-role without a bullet left return "has a gun" to bullet-bob if he's a town-vig without a bullet left or would he return "has no gun" ? Also I'd say risk is the liar and if he is he's town. Toad.. what? there is no reason for town to lie about that. Imo whoever is lying is scum. also I believe questions should be sent via PM... | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
On May 18 2012 04:55 Toadesstern wrote: which still means: I'd rather not lynch into any of those 3. Sentinel looks good without a doubt, so no lynching that. Risk and Marv are somewhat weird but with Sentinel's action I'm not 100% sure one of them has to be mafia. It could be 1-1 or 2-0 right now, maybe even 0-2 idk. No lynching them unless we have more information and more analysis about them. what possible town motivation could there be for sent's claim if he is lying. what possible town motivation would there be for risk or marv to hide the fact they picked a role that withholds info from basically only town (other than roles maybe, but knowing the alignments is way more important imo) | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On May 18 2012 05:01 Mattchew wrote: what possible town motivation could there be for sent's claim if he is lying. what possible town motivation would there be for risk or marv to hide the fact they picked a role that withholds info from basically only town (other than roles maybe, but knowing the alignments is way more important imo) I don't think sent is lying because he's busted if he does as mafia. We can confirm that really easy within 1 or 2 days. So for me it's more about the question wether or not he would have a reason to lie as mafia and I don't see that happening. For risk and marv it's a bit complicated but there are a bunch of good reasons to lie as a townie in that situation if you ARE the janitor. Janitor is COMPLETLY useless for town so you might as well lie (read: "hey guys I don't have janitor and I am #2 or #3 so I've probably got a REALLY AWESOME BLUE POWER" ) to draw some hits because getting the janitor out of the game is all we wanted to achieve and if one of them is town and already managed to do that they're happy. If they can "protect" another guy who is very likely to be shot early on due to awesome blue role or awesome mafia sKiLlZ that's awesome for town. So yes, I see a lot of reasons for them to lie as town. Could be wrong which brings me to the point: Leave them alive, I want to figure out what's going on in that constellation rather than just randomly lynching into them, having a coinflip on wether or not we hit mafia and on top of that gain 0 (!!!!) information because everyone would be like "duuuh, that's a mess" if one of them flipped town or "nice hit" if one of them flipped mafia. Noone is willing to lynch them because of analysis. People want to lynch them because of bullshit they haven't figured out yet. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
(I'm trying to account for the possibility that Nuke picked janitor thinking he had convinced everyone he wasn't going to, and then got fucked by sentinel saying that he would pick janitor) Funny thing is that if I were scum in nuke's position, I would have taken vigilante straight up no question. you had already told people that you weren't going to take janitor - now you get to take vig. and mafia has 3 potential KP right off the bat - they might not even need to use the CPR doc right away if they're scared of trackers or roleblocks. | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
On May 18 2012 05:08 Toadesstern wrote: I don't think sent is lying because he's busted if he does as mafia. We can confirm that really easy within 1 or 2 days. So for me it's more about the question wether or not he would have a reason to lie as mafia and I don't see that happening. For risk and marv it's a bit complicated but there are a bunch of good reasons to lie as a townie in that situation if you ARE the janitor. Janitor is COMPLETLY useless for town so you might as well lie (read: "hey guys I don't have janitor and I am #2 or #3 so I've probably got a REALLY AWESOME BLUE POWER" ) to draw some hits because getting the janitor out of the game is all we wanted to achieve and if one of them is town and already managed to do that they're happy. If they can "protect" another guy who is very likely to be shot early on due to awesome blue role or awesome mafia sKiLlZ that's awesome for town. So yes, I see a lot of reasons for them to lie as town. Could be wrong which brings me to the point: Leave them alive, I want to figure out what's going on in that constellation rather than just randomly lynching into them, having a coinflip on wether or not we hit mafia and on top of that gain 0 (!!!!) information because everyone would be like "duuuh, that's a mess" if one of them flipped town or "nice hit" if one of them flipped mafia. Noone is willing to lynch them because of analysis. People want to lynch them because of bullshit they haven't figured out yet. so lets say risk is janitor... why is he voting sent?... why would a townie lie to allow us to mislynch someone? | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On May 18 2012 04:41 Mattchew wrote: oh wait not as much KP as i thought... marv wouldn't you agree that a 2town for 1scum is good for town In the original posts, if the janitor uses his role, will the team members alive numbers be updated or will they become question marks? (referring to + Show Spoiler + On May 06 2012 03:06 GMarshal wrote: 4/4 Mafia Remain 1/1 Serial Killers Remain 15/15 Vanilla Townies Remain Mafia Alignment KP = 1 SK Alignment KP = 1 Question marks. Thats part of the point of the role On May 18 2012 04:42 Snarfs wrote: If the janitor uses his role and dies the same night, are roles revealed or concealed? Concealed, the power still goes off. Would a vig-role without a bullet left return "has a gun" to bullet-bob if he's a town-vig without a bullet left or would he return "has no gun" ? If you are a vigi role you always return "has gun" even if you are out of bullets. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On May 17 2012 12:44 PaqMan wrote: As I said, I'm not going to contribute if I have nothing to contribute. You yourself were just complaining of spam earlier. When the number selection started, by the time I had logged on and checked the thread, discussion was in full throttle. Plans were already pushed and people's minds already set. Am I honestly getting scolded for asking questions about plans that were discussed and settled on while I was absent? 1) "why would he post something like this?" I think the answer's quite obvious here. I was curious about what would be the best thing to do should that scenario occur. Should all three people choose to completely disregard the plans that everyone decided on and someone lower on the list, such as #8 or 9 or 10 or etc, ends up with CPR/Janitor, should they claim it? Am I really getting scolded for thinking ahead? My complete misunderstanding of how PyP works during the start of the game is better explained by the fact that I've never done a pyp. 2) That comment was a question on the plans that were laid out while I was away. + Show Spoiler [my opinions] + On May 15 2012 14:11 PaqMan wrote: If scum obtain the CPR role then it's definitely worth taking out of play, I don't understand how you could argue about that. They already start off with the upper hand and denying them one of the strongest roles in the game is a plus for town. On May 17 2012 09:20 PaqMan wrote: It's possible he's just trying to bait scum into picking janitor so that they end up being vanilla. You have a good point but I really can't imagine scum waiting until after the draft order is posted then purposely act against a plan that was agreed upon by everyone. Throw in the fact that he's making a huge deal about it as well. He could have just as easily not told us his intentions. On May 16 2012 13:21 PaqMan wrote: Yepp, I don't understand that. Some discussion is always better than complete silence. Makes it too easy for scum. That said, my numbers were [2,2]. I didn't give much thought when I was choosing my numbers. I was originally going to do [4,2] but risk declared that as his number and I didn't want to end up at the bottom. Also, lol at deconduo. Assuming that he went through with [1,1] I'm surprised no one else picked it. Idk why, I just thought that someone would troll him and pick the same number. Would have been pretty funny. Please tell me that those aren't opinions. I've contributed nothing at all? Well D1 literally just started only a few hours ago. Of course I'm not going to be slapping down cases and FoS's. If you mean contributing to plans, of course I had nothing to contribute. You had quarter-page long posts covering the role plans, so what the hell is left to say besides "I approve!". Believe it or not, but my questions did contribute. Perhaps they were a little idiotic but they kept the discussion from going stagnate and they raised a good point. I'm not sure what to say regarding this part of your case because I see no difference between my posting at all. It's already stated above but I'll say it again. My questions did contribute to discussion. I was looking for potential flaws in the plans and I was questioning possible scenarios and what would be the best course of action if said scenarios occurred. -not scared, didn't have anything useful to contribute to plans that everyone already agreed on. -I dont care? I lost the first mafia game I've played in over 6 months. My 2nd game is ongoing. And I'm definitely not down to start my 3rd with getting mislynched D1 because a vet pushed me for asking questions. TL;DR I'm town and you're wrong. If those are your only points for thinking I'm scum you need to do better than that. First of all, notice what PaqMan is really saying. He's just saying that I'm wrong, but he still isn't going to change what he has been doing so far this game. And like Sloosh pointed out, his way of saying that I'm wrong is by misrepresenting my words. I'm not criticizing him for asking questions. I'm criticizing him for not bringing anything material to the table despite acting like he's part of the discussion, which is a significant change from how he acted in a previous game, even though, by all indications, he was just as fired up about this game as he was the other one. As he says, he isn't going to post if he has nothing to contribute. Then why does he have 16 posts up to this point without a material contribution to the game? He has given us more updates about his schedule than he has given us opinions about what has happened so far! He says he is just asking questions about things which were discussed while he was absent. While this is true, I'm pointing out that this is a very big change in demeanor compared to how he was acting in a previous game (and other games he has played in as well for that matter - ignoring the ongoing game of course, but I figured the posts in Area XLIII showed my point well enough without forcing me to bring up his Cthsazsa posts which show the same behavior). However, that was not my only point, there was a HUGE change in demeanor compared to how he was acting before the game started as well! Before the game started, he was eager to be a part of it. After the game started, he's acting almost like a disinterested observer. Snarfs, I see you mentioned that the situation in which people didn't follow the picking plan actually happened. However, you can't read that post with this sort of backwards-looking logic. You have to look at it in the context of when it was made if you want to use this form of analysis. At the time, there was no indication of anyone dissenting to the plan at all. On May 15 2012 12:44 PaqMan wrote: So notice how he immediately dropped his objection in a relatively timid fashion and essentially dropped out of the conversation for the rest of the phase. Why didn't he push his question to trigger more discussion if he was genuinely concerned that it was a possibility? Because he didn't want to make waves and he didn't want to draw attention to himself. Who acts like that? Anti-town players trying to blend in and timid/disinterested townies. But we have already ruled out that he is disinterested because of the way he was posting before the game started. And we have ruled out that he is timid because of how he has posted in previous games. That only leaves Anti-town.+ Show Spoiler + On May 15 2012 11:37 Qatol wrote: Who are you thinking wouldn't follow the plans? Nobody is even arguing against them right now. Are you suggesting that there are 3-5 people who think it is better to disagree and silently act on their own rather than talking about their concerns openly right now? That's pretty anti-town behavior on their part. If anyone has reservations about assigning the roles as we are discussing, please bring them forward now. However, if the plan isn't followed and someone lower in the queue happens to get the Janitor or CPR Doctor (as I mentioned earlier, you should consider all roles fair game just in case, no matter where you are in the queue - use your judgment based on your reads on the people above you and your location), then yeah, they should claim after the Copy Cat has been assigned. It creates accountability, which is never a bad thing. Note: this is only with regards to the CPR Doctor and the Janitor roles. This is not an invitation to claim your role (or lack thereof) for no reason later. It's possible that these plans won't work if the top 3 picks are all mafia/SK, but then we can figure them out via the KP numbers. And it isn't like they won't drop like flies once we figure out what happened. This is the whole point of slowing down the game - to give the town time to organize. That's why I said what if. I slightly misstated my point when I said that he doesn't give his opinion on things. He does. However, they're always extremely "safe" opinions, all of which have either been stated in this game, a previous one, or they doesn't help the town any more than the mafia. Note the 3 posts he points out: + Show Spoiler + On May 15 2012 14:11 PaqMan wrote: If scum obtain the CPR role then it's definitely worth taking out of play, I don't understand how you could argue about that. They already start off with the upper hand and denying them one of the strongest roles in the game is a plus for town. This was stated by pretty much every player in the game. This isn't an opinion, this is him parroting the logical course of action as agreed upon by everyone (at the time). On May 17 2012 09:20 PaqMan wrote: It's possible he's just trying to bait scum into picking janitor so that they end up being vanilla. You have a good point but I really can't imagine scum waiting until after the draft order is posted then purposely act against a plan that was agreed upon by everyone. Throw in the fact that he's making a huge deal about it as well. He could have just as easily not told us his intentions. Note that this post doesn't actually help the town or the mafia. This is because the post doesn't give any additional positive direction to the town or reduce any options for the mafia. All it does is tell us that PaqMan is thinking about players baiting the mafia into taking picks. It's pure speculation and may actually help the mafia more than the town by pointing out the potential mind game! Finally, he makes a post talking about posting our numbers. This has been done in every single PYP to my knowledge because "it can't hurt the town." I don't see how this is contribution at all. However, the one time he has a chance to voice a real opinion on something or at least make sure the town thinks about a potentially material issue, he backs off right away. In the next part, he discusses his posting from another game and mentions that he doesn't see a difference at all. I see a big one. Read the post again: On April 21 2012 12:01 PaqMan wrote: Notice the tone he takes in this post: it's assertive. It's helpful. He's standing by an unconventional idea. Once again, compare that to his attempt to join the discussion when we were talking about the CPR/Jailkeeper plan - he is the exact opposite! The major difference is he didn't give us his opinion on the best course of action if the scenario he mentioned (people not following the plan) happened. But I do agree with you VE. Giving scum any more info puts them in an even greater advantage over us. A mass vig claim would be the same as handing them a hit list. some of gonzaw's points however are pretty valid (no late-game chaos with vig claiming before lynch, etc etc). Either way, I can't see a vig following either one of y'alls policies. He claims, town lynches him and nothing is gained. He claims, chance of mafia taking him out or keeps him alive, either way there's chaos. I suggest that our vigilante (if we have one) doesn't claim at all. If he's about to be lynched then he needs to defend himself as a normal townie because claiming vig is going to create a shitstorm for us, which gives scum the upper hand. If he's going to use his kp one someone, he doesn't need to claim before or after the kill. It's going to create too much confusion and WIFOM and finger-pointing and shit. So I think that vigilantes should not make any claims this game. Finally, Sloosh makes an excellent point about his defiant tone while trying to turn his defense into an accusation of me. Where did that come from? Why wasn't he posting like that earlier? Because he's grumpy that he got shoved into the spotlight while trying to blend in. And because he got caught on day 1 in his first game with an Anti-Town role (unless I'm mistaken, and not commenting about the game going on, of course). He's Anti-Town. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On May 18 2012 05:11 Mattchew wrote: so lets say risk is janitor... why is he voting sent?... why would a townie lie to allow us to mislynch someone? Do you think it's something that is necessarily scummy? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On May 18 2012 05:16 Toadesstern wrote: Do you think it's something that is necessarily scummy? Are you asking if lying in order to mislynch a townie is scummy? | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On May 18 2012 05:20 marvellosity wrote: Are you asking if lying in order to mislynch a townie is scummy? nah I am asking if he considers lying as a townie (wtf?!?!) as someting scummy. Obviously the mislynch part is bullshit and I ignored it. The guy has 2 votes and already flipped town according to mattchew. | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On May 18 2012 05:11 Mattchew wrote: so lets say risk is janitor... why is he voting sent?... why would a townie lie to allow us to mislynch someone? 1) We've got 2 votes on sent 2) We don't know if it's a mislynch if it were to happen, although I agree that he's looking good. That's why I ignored that part. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On May 18 2012 05:55 Mattchew wrote: Oh ok I get it why would risk lie to push a lynch onto sent Wasn't that your point already?? | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On May 16 2012 20:59 deconduo wrote: We had agreed on a plan. There was plenty of opportunity to voice any objections to it before the draft list was revealed. It was also mentioned that there would be no changing after the draft was revealed. And yet you come out of nowhere saying you might not follow the plan, and you give no reasoning behind it. It looks a lot like a scum wanting to be able to use janitor without having any consequences. 'Oh janitor was used? I didn't like the plan so I didn't take it, it wasn't me.' Might be because my initial plan was to take GF, when I figured it was a bit stronger than it actually is. However its pretty obvious that I abandoned that plan ages ago, and agreed with the current one. No idea why he would bring it up again now. On May 17 2012 01:11 deconduo wrote: Yeah and so the only reasons for risk not to want the plan to succeed are: -He's town that wants to take traitor safely -He's scum that wants to be able to use janitor without getting lynched -He's SK that wants a better role than janitor On May 15 2012 01:40 deconduo wrote: Oh yeah, I forgot about dropping roles down. I'll try to think of a way to compensate for that, maybe a check on me first night? Though with a possible framer as well it gets annoying. My hope was to have the framer as the only possible way for scum to fuck with DT checks. On May 16 2012 07:20 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Dammit didn't think that through. Well there's another point for the town rolecop. Next question - Why would Hider be an important defensive role? From my point of view it seems like an information role or a role that defends others would be much more important. The only use I could see for Hider is an active/veteran player being able to voice his opinions without getting shot. Worth noting that deconduo gives the exact scum reasoning for why you would say you're not going to take janitor when in fact you do. Could mean that this plan was already afoot, although pointing out in the open like that is somewhat brazen. | ||
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