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I have many things to say about that long post. I'll address some now and some after the lynch.
That quote *was* originally mine btw. It keeps getting credited to nreekay and I don't appreciate it. >.>
On April 25 2012 10:07 yomi wrote:
you are being way way way way too passive right now. post. a lot more. don't let anyone lurk. make them just post whatever's on their mind. this is SUPER stressful for mafia. mafia have to re-read their posts 10 times before posting and are super super careful about everything. making them have to give an opinion on everything is awful for a mafia. so punish (really punish, not just threaten) the lurkers hard and anyone that won't come out with near-constant lists of their reads on everyone and why. mafia hate hate hate that environment. on the other hand don't let it get super cluttered. just make everyone come out with frequent clear posts. last game you guys really almost had us on day 2. it was super scary how the posting was going. very organized, very clear, very concise. I just managed to discredit xatalos to win it but otherwise you guys had us made, many of the lists had 3 or 4 players picked of which 2 were mafia.
firm, aggressive, but reasoned and frequent posting is mafia's enemy.
Really good advice that I don't want to go unnoticed. Our last game had over twice the amount of posting by this time, and it's hard to scumhunt when half the thread is inactive.
On April 25 2012 10:07 yomi wrote:
I'll excuse it in AF b/c he played the last game w/ me and I am playing this one very similarly and he has a little grudge against me I guess from last game.
No grudge, but the pattern is eerily similar. My primary point was that, yes, it was similar to your scum posting, but more importantly, a town has no reason to act that way. If all your posts were as useful and reasoned as these past few, nobody would even be thinking of lynching you.
The problem I have is now you've already acted this way, and now *this* is an inconsistency.
I'm curious to see how this turns out now. 35 minutes to lynch. If you survive, I wouldn't be surprised, but I would need an effort much more like these past few posts before I started trusting you as town.
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On April 25 2012 10:38 insectoceanx wrote:
Let's hear some more from the lurkers in the thread on the next day. I guess we shall see if yomi is town or not.
You're one of the lurkers, you know. Is this all you have to say about it?
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yomi, I've just re-read your filter for about the 30th time today. Gah. I have the same problem with you that I had with willz in the last game -- I just can't see a townie acting like that for so long, but then you act like this for the last few posts and make me go "wtf?" in my head. If that was your way of establishing town cred for the first 40~ hours, calling people stupid and antagonizing everyone, it was an awful way to go about it. =/
I guess we'll know for sure in a few minutes. I'm going to be extremely disappointed in your play if you flip green.
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*sigh* gg  As promised, I'm extremely disappointed in your Day 1. I see your thought process, but it's too antagonistic to get people to trust you.
Unfortunately, the result of that is that we've lost an extremely active townie, in a game where most people are lurking like it's the Brood War.
Going mostly silent for the Night. I'll post something close to the deadline, in case I'm shot.
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On April 25 2012 11:03 nreekay324 wrote:
@ yomi- "mafia play to survive, town plays to win" right?
Speaking of lurkers....why the hell were you silent until just now?
I will be coming after all the lurkers on Day 2. Be ready.
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Good morning! Couple things to mention:
On April 25 2012 15:17 Gossemerr wrote:
Please don't do this. Post as much as you can. We need to be active if we want to make an accurate assessment on people's alignments. NOBODY should be worried about dying or saying anything that might get them killed. An active town discussion is what we need. Not posting allows the scum to just sit around without having to contribute.
So, lets get the discussion's, analyses, and POST-based cases going starting this night.
Welcome to the game, Gossemerr! God that was hard to spell. I'ma call you Goss so I don't have to spellcheck it every time I try to type it out.
In general, posting at night doesn't help town out a great deal. Anyone with a blue role should know by now what they're going to do, and mafia are discussing amongst themselves who they're going to shoot -- most of the time, any information given out during the night just helps them to make this decision.
However, the game has been so inactive thus far that I'm not entirely opposed to lurkers showing up and trying to make themselves useful, so long as the posting also continues into Day 2.
On April 25 2012 20:06 oneplus wrote:
The only thing i feel abit suspicious about ArcticFox is he is too active at the deadline which could be either way.
If you'll notice, hardly anyone was active at the deadline, except for me and yomi. In an ideal world, every single town would be active at the deadline. If the vote is already going scum's way, there's little reason for them to show up -- mislynch or no-lynch are both a success in scum eyes, though obviously a mislynch is better for them.
insectoceanx will be getting a lot of heat tomorrow based on that last minute vote switch coupled with his hardcore lurking. After posting exactly 2 things in the course of 2 days, only one of those being useful (a post making a case vs. Zealos and saying "yomi is acting very suspicious"), he comes in and does a vote switch after yomi was already starting to look much more townie in the last few minutes, then refuses to explain anything except:
On April 25 2012 11:07 insectoceanx wrote:
I think zealos is the greatest chance of being scum at this point but yomi is close behind and I changed my vote to him for the sake of getting a lynch.
Which he posted *after* the lynch already went through. It put me in a very difficult position, as I was the only one online (if you actually buy nreekay's post about being online exactly 3 minutes after the deadline came up, which I strongly have my doubts about) at the deadline, so it left it to me as to whether the yomi lynch passed or not.
It's kinda hard for me to fault him though...if yomi had posted something that useful even 2 or 3 hours sooner, with enough time to cycle through a few people who came online, we'd very likely be looking at Zealos' flip today instead of yomi's, as Zealos was certainly the stronger scum read at deadline. Again, I'm very disappointed in yomi's play that spent too long "setting up his trap" that nobody fell into and not enough time showing us that he was town.
That will be my last comment on the yomi issue. We know his alignment now, and that's important.
Day 2's agenda will involve heavy pushing of lurkers and include a re-analysis of Zealos' behavior, including why he also decided to lurk instead of making himself useful at deadline when he was one of the top 2 scumreads for town.
Again, a much longer and more detailed analysis post will come near deadline (I've already posted more than I wanted to for a night cycle  ), in case mafia decides to take me out, so you'll have a baseline of my thoughts to work from. Lurkers, I would not be opposed to you making yourselves useful, as you will be the first ones I call out.
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On April 26 2012 00:10 Zealos wrote:
I lurk at deadline as I am asleep during that time. It's gonna be like that for most days/nights, sorry about that. I agree that you should look over my posts so far if nessesary, and I am happy to respond to issues' - Provided I am awake at the time.
I would say, don't post too many big reads until right before the night deadline, so as not to influence the scum hit. That's what I will be doing.
So which is it? Will you be asleep at the deadline or will you be posting your scum reads right before the deadline?
Mainly because you haven't said anything in over a day, lurking on a day where you were on the hot seat for a lynch, I would be interested in hearing your scum reads relatively soon.
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Alright, because it might have been unclear, let me call out some names, in order of signup on page 1:
insectoceanx
Gossemerr (as St. Daniel's replacement)
mutant
zealos
imallinson
So far, the above list of players REALLY need to step it up and make mafia's job harder.
oneplus and nreekay are starting to post more, but I'm still keeping an eye on them, as they were more or less inactive for the first half of the game.
That means out of 11 alive players, Five are able to be picked out as lurkers for sure, and two are on the edge. That makes mafia's job of blending in so much easier. At bare minimum, 4 of these players (likely 5 or 6) have to be town. Until you start posting, there's no way to pick out the mafia from the town. I don't even mind you guys posting at night, because it would be posting something to work with.
What shouldn't be posted right now would be things like your strongest town reads, or instructions to blue players. That's information mafia will use to decide on their night targets. If you wish to use town reads to make your case, it would be more beneficial to town if you wait until close to deadline for this (there are few times I would publicly post a town read, the notable exception being if they're under pressure for a lynch and I'm almost certain they're actually town)
What SHOULD be posted right now -- your strongest scum reads. Anything you find odd about someone's play. Thoughts on yomi's filter, as he is our only confirmed town (concentrating more on the latter half than the earlier half, unless it's specifically about people's reactions to the first half). Thoughts on the arguments going on between Maju, Dracolich, and Dr3am. Thoughts on insects' last minute switch to yomi, and my and nreekay's reactions to it.
There are SO many topics to pick from, just pick something and start making a logical, reasoned case about it. If you're town, you have nothing to lose from posting like this -- not posting because you're afraid of looking dumb just makes it easier for the scum to hide in the shadows and not expose themselves.
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On April 26 2012 04:03 insectoceanx wrote:
If you werent going to be around you wouldnt be around, if you were gonna be around why wouldnt you just keep posting.
Simple answer here -- most of the advice I've gotten says and from my previous readings I've seen that not a lot usually gets done at night, so I typically avoid posting anything major at night to not give mafia as much information to work with. However, as thin as the posting has been, I reconsidered and decided that any move that would serve to make that discussion even *thinner* probably wasn't a good move. Thus, the increase in posting to try to spark discussion.
nreekay as town and dream as scum are interesting reads to me. I'd like you to elaborate on these for me if you wouldn't mind. Specifically, nreekay reads as a null to me, as there's not really enough information there for me to say either way (plus popping up 3 minutes after the deadline is extremely curious, and would lean more scum than town to me). Also, Dr3am is one of the more active posters we have in the thread (granted, nothing in the last 24 hours...which should say something about the thread activity level, if he's not in my lurker list....). With the hard stances he's taken on everything, and the not being afraid of asking people pointed questions, what specifically about his posting is troubling you enough to make him your #1 scum?
Thanks for contributing. It's a start! Let's get everyone involved and posting! Share that info!
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On April 26 2012 05:40 insectoceanx wrote:
The two lines that I bolded out of his filter I thought could be a little telling. If he is red, he saw an opportunity in yomi as everyone else saw yomi as possibly scum, yet no one had voted for him yet so twice he made comments about how the fact that no one was voting for him seemed like he was scum. Perhaps he was worried he would lost an opportunity to get a townie lynched the first day.
FTD explain what you meant by those two bolded statements above and now that yomi is gone who do you suspect?
And your thoughts on nreekay? You've said you thought he was town, but have given no reasoning thus far.
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On April 26 2012 06:57 ForTheDr3am wrote:
@ArcticFox: I'm very thankful that you try to get the lurkers posting, but I am surprised you have not given a lot of your opinions on other people apart from that. I know, or rather feel, myself that it is hard though, and I hope your deadline post will shine more light onto that.
It's entirely my intention. With the amount of lurkers we have though, I had no intention of quickly posting my scumreads and allowing an easy rewording of my thoughts/bandwagoning of my ideas. We have few enough original posts as it is. My current goal is to get discussion flowing so people have enough to talk to each other about in case I don't live through the night.
Plus, as it stood, with 10 other people alive, I had 7 marked as lurkers. It's really freaking hard to give opinions based off of that. I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt, though, as the majority of lurkers by definition have to be town.
Furthermore, my views on who have been acting suspicious haven't changed much since yesterday's posting -- Zealos was aggressive then went into lurk mode, imallinson is still coasting with 2 posts, and oneplus's contribution since my pressure on him have been a bunch of summary posts with no actual meat or new ideas introduced. With the lurkers not contributing, it's hard to add any new analysis to that.
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EBWOP -- I do have new analysis to add of course, but I have nobody to take off the suspicious list, because they haven't done anything differently to change my mind on them.
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Well, I guess if I'm going to say that much, I might as well list out everything:
Zealos -- Still my top scumread. His first few posts were full of aggressive attacks, followed by a case on Maju that was a trumped up load of crap that Maju deflected fairly well, and his total contribution since has been a post to excuse his lurking. There's been flat out no analysis, just a bunch of attacks and excuses.
imallinson -- 2 posts -- one of which was a throwaway post, the other a useless list of obvious points and parroted cases that were already made. He needs to be pushed HARD to contribute something actually worthwhile.
oneplus -- As mentioned already, his only contributions have been a defense of yomi (while mentioning that he's acting like scum, but still calling him town), followed by a summary post. It's a bunch of useless throwaway while trying to say "I don't fluff my posts," while doing nothing but making a single fluff post in the last 24 hours. This guy reeks of scum right now.
@insectoceanx -- I still have my doubts about you based on how the yomi lynch worked out, but you've doubled your post count today so I want you to keep that up. Your reads for the most part boggle my mind, and have little to no reasoning behind them. It's another curse of doing list posting like that -- if you try to analyze every player of the game at once, you put pressure on nobody, scum really don't have to answer, and you give mafia a really good idea as to which townies are looking most townie. My best advice is to focus on your 1 or 2 best scum reads and make them answer every question you throw at them, while poking the lurkers with a stick to make them active.
Other issues --
nreekay's posting is apparently fooling some people into thinking he's saying something. He hasn't. He made a summary post on Zealos's actions. He showed up 3 minutes after the lynch and took a jab at yomi. He also pulled the same summary post deal that Oneplus did. It's useless. It's either a clueless town or complete scum move. He needs to be pressed tomorrow.
The Maju/Dracolich bullshitstorm that is swirling between them seems to me to be two townies reading too much into each other. The fact that nobody has really stepped in to take sides on it points to mafia not wanting to get terribly involved in it, and the cases themselves are full of nothing but air. I hope they stop the bickering and get back to the scumhunting.
You can consider anyone I don't mention to either be a town read or a null/lurker read.
At this point, add mutant to the lurker list, and move insectoceanx to the semi-lurker. Keep pressing everyone to post. Ask direct questions if you want direct answers, making long listy posts of your reads is generally pointless because scum feels no obligation to answer, while overzealous town feel like they have to defend themselves and you end up bickering amongst each other while the scum can sit back and laugh.
Specifically, if I am going to ask questions:
imallinson -- why should we not lynch you tomorrow? You've been 100% worthless to town so far.
oneplus -- Do you have any actual analysis to add? The list. summary, and parrot posts are scumtells to the core. Where are your actual cases?
zealos -- You've hidden long enough. Best scum read and why. And a real case this time, not the trumped up load of crap you tried to make stick to Maju.
lurkers -- STEP UP AND POST. Town has no reason to be afraid. Post loud and strong, and it will force the scum to not use lurking as a weapon.
Mafia are not winning this game so much as town is just pissing it away right now. Scum fears activity. Be active. We can't catch scum if we don't force them to do anything, and we can't force them to do anything while half the town is silent.
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EBWOP -- If there's any specific questions you'd like answered, like my reads on a player I didn't mention, or my perspective on a situation that I might have glossed over, I'd appreciate the question before the night ends. I'll be monitoring the thread and do my best to answer.
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That was one hell of a blue snipe. =/
Going to bed. It would be awesome if there was a ton of informational posting done overnight while I'm asleep.
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Ok, time to look at the bright side. Lack of night posting means that my morning analysis is much easier and faster. Let's go!
@Zealos -- If you're going to try to discredit the case against you, post the whole case. My argument wasn't that you were aggressive, it was that you are aggressive in an unhelpful way, that you lurked hardcore, and have made a grand total contribution to town of one case on Maju that's about as watertight as the Titanic. That fact that you "didn't vote for the wrong person" means absolutely nil. I can give good town and scum reasons both for not voting yomi. "I made a crappy case against Maju then disappeared from the thread." is not high on the reasons to believe you're town. Step it up and post something useful. Specifically, answer the questions mutant listed that we've been trying to get you to answer for 2 days now.
@oneplus -- Why would I like that post, exactly? Analysis of voting patterns with no conclusion, discussion of blue roles that we can't be sure of, and trying to argue why the guy who flipped town is a town (huh?). It's a bunch of useless junk and moreover, I still have NO clue who you think is scum. How is that helpful? I sincerely hope your next post is better.
@Maju -- Lists are nice, but press your case. Who is your top scum? Why so? Nobody has any reason to answer to anything in your post right now, including Dracolich, who you posted a lot to but never even asked him to post anything in return. If he's reading scummy to you, press him to answer something. If not, end the circular arguments and defenses that, frankly, give me a headache when I try to decipher you two's posts, and focus your efforts on unearthing a scum. Other than that, keep up the activity level and don't disappear on us again. >.>
@Mutant -- At night you can make good reasoning for not posting analysis (though in this game's activity level, I'm for you posting your analyis whenever you damn well please), but during the day there's almost no reason to not post your reads. Be brave, be bold! I like that you have strong opinions, I just want to see them more often. Your reads at this moment line up very well with mine. Keep it up and feel free to press the people who answer your questions if you don't like their answers.
That's everyone. 5 more people who haven't posted yet today. GET ACTIVE.
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EBWOP -- in the oneplus section, meant "WIFOM analysis of voting patterns", as there's no way to be sure about any of it based off the voting placements just yet. I could argue strongly for any number from 1-3 of scum voting yomi yesterday (though arguing 0 voted yomi is a much harder argument). Sadly, the case was strong enough against him that I can't draw anything else out of it, as he even admitted he acted the exact same way that got him lynched in his first game and *expected* to be voted for. I'm not sure what conclusions you can draw when a town's trying to get himself lynched, except by analyzing the reactions to him, and not specifically the voting pattern. Going back and looking at how everyone reacted to him acting erratically is going to be my pet project today, other than "beat lurkers over the head with a stick."
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EBWOP #2 -- "exact same way that almost got him lynched". Day 1 of newbie VIII he would have died acting the same way, except a hero save by a completely stupid townie move saved him -- why he thought he wouldn't get lynched doing the same thing this game even without a meta argument is beyond me.
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On April 26 2012 23:25 sandroba wrote:
Hey if anyone needs someone to bounce off ideas I'll be glad to be of service!
Use these coaching resources if you're only not posting for fear of not being useful. As we've been saying countless times -- the only people who should fear posting are mafia. If you have a read on someone, make it. More information isn't a bad thing -- if we agree, we'll tell you, if we don't, we'll argue with you. That's how this game works.
Be active! It's the only way we're going to make progress in this game.
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EBWOP: I'm receiving coaching advice as well to bounce ideas off of, so I highly suggest everyone makes use of these resources. Then uses that info to POST MORE!
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EPT
