EPTI'm a cop you idiot mafia - Page 6
| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
|
Bluelightz
Indonesia2463 Posts
| ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On April 14 2012 09:46 Tunkeg wrote: Yeah, BH you will just post town on anyone you have claimed to check tomorrow. I on the other hand will post town, scum or doc even. That's interesting, because my checks only return as town or scum... | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On April 14 2012 10:20 johnnywup wrote: EBWOP: That's enough to make me confident you're scum. Scum. ##vote Tunkeg ._. 1) n0 2) 5. This game uses instant majority voting. As soon as someone is hammered they're dead. Please be respectful and stop talking immediately even if a host is not around to flip you. Just say GG and wait for the flip | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
| ||
|
wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
| ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On April 14 2012 11:36 wherebugsgo wrote: BH and Tunkeg CC each other, yeah? Yes, but not precisely. Tunkeg claims to be a rolecop, and I'm just a regular cop. | ||
|
wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
| ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On April 14 2012 11:40 wherebugsgo wrote: so he's a liar? There are no rolecops in this setup Frankly? Yes. When he gets back though I'm sure he'll have some excuse for why he claimed rolecop. | ||
|
johnnywup
United States3858 Posts
I still think tunkegs scum. | ||
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Lets first consider mafia motivations for this game. You KNOW that it's all about the cop, and counter-claiming the cop. If I rolled mafia, first thing I'm doing is discussing which of us is going to claim as the cop. Also consider this: mafia want to be the first out of the gate to claim cop, because whoever claims second generally looks like a pretty lame counter-claimer. So mafia will try to be johnny-on-the-spot and snipe the claim before the actual cop. Anything that gives you a measure of credibility is worth it, considering one has to assume this game will be decided on the slightest misstep. Hence mafia will be looking for an excuse to claim early. I'd like to talk first about why I think Blazinghand is scum, then I will talk about why I think Tunkeg is the actual Cop. Those two points are mostly exclusive. There are several reason I think Blazinghand is scum and first is his demeanor. First is his response to me on page 3: + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2012 08:46 Blazinghand wrote: That doesn't make his idea wrong though. Look, here's what's gonna happen D1: we'll be at lylo. Our cop needs to claim NOW, and get medic protection, and NOT call who he is checking. Scenario A (cop does not claim): We enter D1 and the mafia has possibly shot the cop. The cop can claim at this point and we have 2 confirmed town, or 1 confirmed town and 1 confirmed scum. If the cop got shot, though, we're flying blind. Scenario B (cop DOES claim): We enter D2 and the mafia cannot have shot the cop, because the medic protected him overnight. THE COP CANNOT HAVE BEEN SHOT, meaning we have 2 confirmed town, or 1 confirmed town and 1 confirmed scum. I think that even though it's gonna be LYLO tomorrow, the cop should claim, and the medic should just protect him. On April 14 2012 08:51 Radfield wrote: I want to discuss this Tunkeg, but NO ONE claim yet. There are pro's and con's to each claiming + counter-claim, and not claiming at all. At the moment I'm leaning towards it being better to not claim. Keep in mind that barring a hero medic protect, we are in constant lylo no matter what. I'm at work right now, but will be home in just over 2 hours. I would like to discuss this in depth. After typing that, it's possible that claiming IS the best call because it forces a 50-50 lynch, which is decent. I'm not sure yet though, so hold off until we discuss. Stick around for two hours(or 2.5) though and I'll be here. On April 14 2012 08:53 Blazinghand wrote: Ok. Bear in mind that the night is pretty short (only 10 hours left). I'll be around for some time. The only reason I brought this up again was that an N0 claim could be more advantageous than a D1 claim-- mafia has no RB. His response to me is deferential and defensive. He gives an excuse for why he brought it up, when no excuse was needed. There was nothing even really wrong with his post, except for the fact that he completely leaves off mentioning a counter-claim scenario. How can you entertain the idea of a cop claiming but not notice the obvious counter-claim scenario. It's conspicuous in it's absence. Fact is, I wasn't even responding to BH, I was talking to Tunkeg, as you can see by my next post. Second is the contradiction between this: On April 14 2012 09:31 Blazinghand wrote: I agree strongly. In this setup the cop will basically HAVE to claim D1 since we'll be at lylo, and claiming N0 is superior to claiming D1. Guaranteeing the cop surviving the night is worth it. I am the cop. and this: On April 14 2012 09:45 Blazinghand wrote: See, this is what doesn't make sense to me. This game clearly is about the cop claim. It's even called "I'm the cop you idiot." Let me explain MY thought process up until my claim: "whether or not I claim is important. I will discuss it with other players until it's clear what the optimal strategy is, then I will execute it immediately". I don't really understand what you were thinking, adding that big about claims to the discussion then bailin out hard. wouldn't a cop be more worried about the implications of his role? Wouldn't, a scum player, in fact, try to lay some groundwork for his claim but not want to? Which of us has played like he wants the town to win? Keep in mind that Blazinghand's claim came apprx 2 minutes after I posted my analysis of 'to claim or not to claim'. If his strategy was truly to 'discuss it with other players until it's clear what the optimal strategy is", he most certainly did NOT do that. What he did was leap at the first opportunity to claim cop that he had. There was basically no discussion of the pros and cons or potential merits of claiming or not. Just me stating that one was better than the other, when I had JUST posted that I was feeling muddled about the potential cost-benefit analysis and was asking for people's thoughts. Remember that mafia are looking for a reason to claim first, and my post is an easy excuse. In this post BH also states the the game is "clearly about the cop", yet in his initial post he completely fails to talk about counter-claims, which is bizarre. From there on out it's just a shoving match between Tunkeg and Blazinghand. The crux of my argument truly comes down to the contradiction. Blazinghand claims that his whole mindset was to discuss and wait for the optimal strategy, and then claim. However he waits only for my opinion, and then claims. But what if I am scum and being intentionally misleading!? BH gives no thought to that(because he knows i am town), but immediately claims in thread. I hold that the immediacy of that claim is due to not wanting to be the second claimer, because BH KNOWS there will be two claimants. Tunkeg on the other hand, I have a fairly town read on. First his opening post shows he cares about and has thought about the game. It includes things such as medic save percentages, which is something that isn't an obvious pro/con at first glance. His post also reads like a cop just begging for someone to say "Hey Cop! TIme to claim!". He then follows it up with trying to encourage discussion, which doesn't happen. Second, Tunkeg claims he first sent in a check on Blazinghand, and then changed once the CC happened. He follows up by saying: Why did I pick you for my first nightaction check - Well I consider Radfield and WBG the best players in the game. I assume scum kills one of them if both aren't scum, and I therefor chose the one I consider third, which is you. This is actually pretty good logic, and shows that either he has been thinking about his check, or is just really good at making shit up on the fly. Lets compare and contrast BH and Tunkeg's claim-posts: On April 14 2012 09:31 Blazinghand wrote: I agree strongly. In this setup the cop will basically HAVE to claim D1 since we'll be at lylo, and claiming N0 is superior to claiming D1. Guaranteeing the cop surviving the night is worth it. I am the cop. On April 14 2012 09:36 Tunkeg wrote: Lie, I didnt go to bed, I am the real cop! There you have it! One is well structured, with blue font and a couple well reasoned sentanced. The other is slapdash and spontaneous. Speaking as a player who has played as scum before, I would NEVER make a post like Tunkegs as a fake counter claim. My post would look exactly like BH's. Safe, Neutral and most important: First. On April 14 2012 09:38 Blazinghand wrote: Well, that was quick. So you went to bed, but you were actually here watching the thread so you could counter claim the cop, huh. I know you're scum. BH accuses Tunkeg of being scummy for not going to bed, and returning to the thread. However this is the exact opposite of typical scum play. When you say you're going to bed as scum, you go to bed. It's when you say you are going to write an analysis or something is when you actually don't follow through. Town players are constantly drawn back to the thread, while mafia players are constantly looking for reasons to leave it(usually). Look at my posting this game, I stated I was going to wait until I got home, but then just kept posting from work at the expense of my work(hint: it's because I am town). Look at the demeanor of each player. Tunkeg seems relaxed and come-what-may. BH seems wound tightly and defensive. I'd like to write more, but frankly I'm tired. Here's hoping the medic sees me along to Day 1 (I doubt it though!  ).Additionally(upon refreshing the page) I think the rolecop thing is likely a red herring. The OP states this: "Cops can investigate someone's alignment every night". Which means that no, Tunkeg will not be able to get back 'medic' as a result(which I had thought). However, I think one would only know that if you read the OP carefully because.... It doesn't actually say anything in the cop PM! Blazinghand states this: On April 14 2012 11:08 Blazinghand wrote: That's interesting, because my checks only return as town or scum... And he states it as if that information is written into his role PM and not just publicly available. As we know, the role PMs only state this: "Welcome to Idiot Mafia. You are a Cop/Vanilla Town/Doctor/Mafia Goon". So it's perfectly understandable that Tunkeg could mistake how his role works, particularly with me stating the same thing(and him only agreeing with me). Again, I think it more likely that a scum player will be meticulous about the fine detail of the fake claim, and not unlikely that the actual cop might miss that blurb. I'd give about 70-75% chance right now that BH is scum. | ||
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On April 14 2012 11:36 wherebugsgo wrote: BH and Tunkeg CC each other, yeah? On April 14 2012 11:40 wherebugsgo wrote: so he's a liar? There are no rolecops in this setup You busy or something bugs?  It's only 6 pages..... | ||
|
Dracolich70
Denmark3820 Posts
| ||
|
wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
| ||
|
wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
| ||
|
Dirkzor
Denmark1944 Posts
 ) What I learned from DF2 was keep it simple. What that means here is to resolve the BH/Tunkeg thingy. While Radfields case is making sense I'll try to make my own case and own conclusions. On April 14 2012 07:17 Tunkeg wrote: So this have been churning in my mind all day: COP CLAIM. Now that we have doc protection on night 0, cop should claim and doc should heal him. Why do I think this is a great idea: Pros: 1. We get a confirmed town or a counterclaim. 1. a. We got a confirmed town, which makes it easier for us to scumhunt. 1. b. We get a 1 for 1 trade with scum. Which isn't as great is pretty great considering there are only 2 scums in this game. 2. Scum will be shooting in to the 4 townies leftover (Doc must protect cop after claim obviously). They will then have a 1/4=25% chance to hit one of our important blue players, instead of a 2/5=40% chance of hitting one of our blue players. 3. As long as cop is alive we get a new confirmed town for every day or a scum. Cop should post his checks as vanilla town=town. Scum= scum. Doc= Checked doc will not reveal. On day one this narrows the field to either 2 confirmed town and 4 remaining players giving us a 50% chance to lynch scum (which should increase by reasoning). Or it gives us the first scum to lynch. Cons. 1. Scum knows our Cop (obv). 2. Scum can lynch into any other town at night, securing guaranteed kill knowing doc is on cop. This also include picking of the ones Cop reveals as confirmed townies the night after they are reveales. 3. If Doc is killed or lynched we lose our Cop, and we will be in some real trouble. So guys any thoughts on this? I am for a Cop claim. Tunkeg first post is solid. It makes sense. But why does he assume the Medic should be on the cop? He was expecting a counterclaim which means the Medic have to choose between the 2 cop claims on who to protect. From a scum perspective it would be fine since they get 25% chance to hit the medic out of the last remaining townies. A medic save besicly wins the game for us. But I get a town feeling from this. It just stood out to me. Then he go to fake-claim going to bed (lol). BH comes in supporting the claim. On April 14 2012 08:46 Blazinghand wrote: That doesn't make his idea wrong though. Look, here's what's gonna happen D1: we'll be at lylo. Our cop needs to claim NOW, and get medic protection, and NOT call who he is checking. Scenario A (cop does not claim): We enter D1 and the mafia has possibly shot the cop. The cop can claim at this point and we have 2 confirmed town, or 1 confirmed town and 1 confirmed scum. If the cop got shot, though, we're flying blind. Scenario B (cop DOES claim): We enter D2 and the mafia cannot have shot the cop, because the medic protected him overnight. THE COP CANNOT HAVE BEEN SHOT, meaning we have 2 confirmed town, or 1 confirmed town and 1 confirmed scum. I think that even though it's gonna be LYLO tomorrow, the cop should claim, and the medic should just protect him. If BH is cop. Why didn't he just claim right here? He already seemed convinced that it was the best choice. (Bolded) He also doesn't mention counter claiming at all. Scenario B will never happen since scum are forced to counter claim. I find it weird that being a cop you would not think about a Radfield post his super logic about claim or not to claim and BH instantly claims Cop. It lines up with him having already made up his mind. On April 14 2012 09:33 Blazinghand wrote: This makes me think BH thought about what being a cop would mean but since it very basic anyone could have brought it up. I'm not calling my check beforehand since mafia will just kill who I'm checking. I'll announce my result as soon as D1 starts. Tunkeg counter claims the cop claim. I don't get why he had to fake-claim going to bed in order to be able to counter-claim. It just seems very townie-like to stay up like that. I've never been scum, but as town I have set my alarm in the dead of night to vote just to be sure I did everything I could as town. Tunkeg and BH goes at eachother. Most post are entirely useless to us. But some stands out: On April 14 2012 09:45 Blazinghand wrote: See, this is what doesn't make sense to me. This game clearly is about the cop claim. It's even called "I'm the cop you idiot." Let me explain MY thought process up until my claim: "whether or not I claim is important. I will discuss it with other players until it's clear what the optimal strategy is, then I will execute it immediately". I don't really understand what you were thinking, adding that big about claims to the discussion then bailin out hard. wouldn't a cop be more worried about the implications of his role? Wouldn't, a scum player, in fact, try to lay some groundwork for his claim but not want to? Which of us has played like he wants the town to win? But BH didn't discuss it? His first post he was already dead set on that the Cop should claim and he instant claimed after Radfields post (where Radfield himself was asking for discussion and not just stating: "Do this!") On April 14 2012 09:51 Tunkeg wrote: Lol, I would never ever in a million years suggest a cop claim N0 as a scum, as the cop claim is what wins us the game. But if I am not to claim I will pretend to be normal vanilla who brought it up, and who leaves the thread when no one is interested in continuing discussing it. It is currently 02:48 here, I could not sit around and wait for the thread to heat up. So I typed it up in thread, sent in my nightactions about 40 mins later, played some dota, and waited to see if we got some nightpost. Then Bluelightz comes in right after me to post, I continue to lurk, you come in and type your stuff, and then Radfield. Why did I pick you for my first nightaction check - Well I consider Radfield and WBG the best players in the game. I assume scum kills one of them if both aren't scum, and I therefor chose the one I consider third, which is you. Anyone in this game should suggest a cop claim. The game revolve around the cop. It's WIFOM to say "I would never as scum..." I find it interesting that he think (and points out) that scum would never suggest a cop claim. We have 2 people who were both for the claim and one of them have to be scum. So scum would suggest the claim. Looks to me like he is saying he is town with very very poor logic. On April 14 2012 11:08 Blazinghand wrote: That's interesting, because my checks only return as town or scum... I would, if I were cop, go back and read the OP very carefully to fully understand my role. It's weird that Tunkeg assumed he was a role cop. His PM doesn't say and as far as I'm aware alignment cops are the norm? This can be a misunderstanding but it could be a "slip". I don't think we should put much focus on this since we won't know which it is. To conclude something. Both have done things that I find scummy or "weird-if-town". The biggest point for me is that Tunkeg stayed up. Radfield naiiled when he said that scum is always looking for a reason to NOT be active. Sleeping is the best and most valid reason. I went to bed and I live in the same timezone as Tunkeg. Why wouldn't he do it? Because he know the game revolved around the cop and he was the cop so he HAD to stay up to make a difference. A big scumtell on BH is how he, in his first post, was dead set on claiming. But didn't. Then when Radfield made logic work he claimed. Later he claimed his mindset was to "wait and discuss". His words and actions just didn't add up. I would say that BH is the best guess of who is scum right now. But we have plenty of time tomorrow to figure it out. Don't be hasty with your votes btw. If 2 townies vote for wrong one scum can hammer and we loose. So first we agree and then we vote. | ||
|
Tunkeg
Norway1235 Posts
Also the key to reading our claims as both Radfield and Dirkzor have pointed out before me is how the claim is made. I make a post willing to discuss it before considering to claim (Post game note: I think a cop never should claim without the support of the town first in this kind of setup). I sort of give up claiming n0 because of not everyone beeing able to chip in and I "leave" the thread. I counterclaim once there is a claim. This way of playing do not indicate a townclaim or scumclaim. I would say if I as a scum were to post my first post (which I have stated before I wouldn't) I would probably follow it up in the same manner I did. What I think is to be focused on is BH's claim: He starts his posting with: On April 14 2012 08:46 Blazinghand wrote: That doesn't make his idea wrong though. Look, here's what's gonna happen D1: we'll be at lylo. Our cop needs to claim NOW, and get medic protection, and NOT call who he is checking. Scenario A (cop does not claim): We enter D1 and the mafia has possibly shot the cop. The cop can claim at this point and we have 2 confirmed town, or 1 confirmed town and 1 confirmed scum. If the cop got shot, though, we're flying blind. Scenario B (cop DOES claim): We enter D2 and the mafia cannot have shot the cop, because the medic protected him overnight. THE COP CANNOT HAVE BEEN SHOT, meaning we have 2 confirmed town, or 1 confirmed town and 1 confirmed scum. I think that even though it's gonna be LYLO tomorrow, the cop should claim, and the medic should just protect him. Saying Cop should claim period. If he was cop he should be his own logic just claim straight from the get go. But he doesn't meaning he wants to discuss it. If he wants to discuss it he should wait for more players to chip in but he doesn't, he doesn't even follow Radfields advice to wait before claiming: On April 14 2012 09:31 Blazinghand wrote: I agree strongly. In this setup the cop will basically HAVE to claim D1 since we'll be at lylo, and claiming N0 is superior to claiming D1. Guaranteeing the cop surviving the night is worth it. I am the cop. He then proceeds to say his logic is to DISCUSS whether or not he should cop claim, when in fact such discussion never happened: On April 14 2012 09:45 Blazinghand wrote: See, this is what doesn't make sense to me. This game clearly is about the cop claim. It's even called "I'm the cop you idiot." Let me explain MY thought process up until my claim: "whether or not I claim is important. I will discuss it with other players until it's clear what the optimal strategy is, then I will execute it immediately". I don't really understand what you were thinking, adding that big about claims to the discussion then bailin out hard. wouldn't a cop be more worried about the implications of his role? Wouldn't, a scum player, in fact, try to lay some groundwork for his claim but not want to? Which of us has played like he wants the town to win? I think this should tell you that his claim is the false one, and that it is damn sure more likely for scum to do a claim this way then a townie to do it this way. I am biased though because I know the truth here, so do BH and his scumbuddy, but I think this is the greatest indicator of who is scum and who is not. | ||
|
Tunkeg
Norway1235 Posts
You say: "Tunkeg counter claims the cop claim. I don't get why he had to fake-claim going to bed in order to be able to counter-claim. It just seems very townie-like to stay up like that. I've never been scum, but as town I have set my alarm in the dead of night to vote just to be sure I did everything I could as town. ". The reason for me saying I am going to bed was that I wouldn't send in my nightactions and then go to bed, only to see that straight after I go to bed the nightpost goes up. Pretty much revealing to the scum that I had a nightaction. I did not stick around to counterclaim, I stuck around because I wasn't going to bed yet, but wanted to avoid what I wrote above. You also say: Anyone in this game should suggest a cop claim. The game revolve around the cop. It's WIFOM to say "I would never as scum..." I find it interesting that he think (and points out) that scum would never suggest a cop claim. We have 2 people who were both for the claim and one of them have to be scum. So scum would suggest the claim. Looks to me like he is saying he is town with very very poor logic. I think scum wouldn't want to bring attention to a cop claim from the get go, but thats my opinion, and it is impossible for you to see whether I reallly mean it or if it is some scumtactics trying to portray my first posts as only something a townie would do. When it is allready out there well then it is just a matter of what the scumteam prefer, do they support a copclaim (which then will lead to a CC) or do they try to shut it down. I would go for the latter. | ||
|
johnnywup
United States3858 Posts
| ||
|
Dirkzor
Denmark1944 Posts
On April 14 2012 17:49 Tunkeg wrote: @Dirkzor: You say: The reason for me saying I am going to bed was that I wouldn't send in my nightactions and then go to bed, only to see that straight after I go to bed the nightpost goes up. Pretty much revealing to the scum that I had a nightaction. I did not stick around to counterclaim, I stuck around because I wasn't going to bed yet, but wanted to avoid what I wrote above. You also say: I think scum wouldn't want to bring attention to a cop claim from the get go, but thats my opinion, and it is impossible for you to see whether I reallly mean it or if it is some scumtactics trying to portray my first posts as only something a townie would do. When it is allready out there well then it is just a matter of what the scumteam prefer, do they support a copclaim (which then will lead to a CC) or do they try to shut it down. I would go for the latter. I just don't understand why you'd have to lie about going to bed. Wouldn't it have been easier to just stop posting? It seemed you wanted to lure a reaction but at the same time you later wrote that you didn't think scum would claim cop so it just doesn't add up. The cop claim is already on the spotlight due the nature of the setup and the name. There is no avoiding a cop claim at some point during this game. All we had to figure out was when it was the best time to claim. So I don't agree with you here at all. With your logic anyone who talked about the cop claim and tried to figure out how it worked best/worst for us is town? Or am I mistaken here? Or is it only because you were the first one to bring it up that you are town? | ||
|
wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
| ||
| ||
