EPTTL Mafia LII: JubJub Mafia - Page 72
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sandroba
Canada4998 Posts
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Curu
Canada2817 Posts
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Curu
Canada2817 Posts
I'll post out my reasoning a bit later when I have time but after going through the thread a few times these are who I feel best about. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5239 Posts
On March 20 2012 12:24 sandroba wrote: I'm waiting to see if I'll have to read 70 pages of stuff or not. looks like ur still in for the long haul brudder @layabout any scumhunting yet? | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On March 20 2012 12:00 EchelonTee wrote: My 2 main mafia suspects have been posting in quite a different manner, but the common thread between them is their apathy. There have been a number of lurkers in the game, but these two in particular have tried in different ways to remain under the radar and not stick their necks out, while town shouts at itself into chaos. Mr. Wiggles I've been pming wiggles for a while and I thought he was town for a while, but the more I think about it the more I do not like him. His initial post was pretty strong and logical, but for the rest of the game he does nothing to match this. Wiggles has been in a position of knowledge (able to talk to palmar, myself, a bunch of others through pm network) and has had several days to form opinions and stuff. I hate it when people on D1 say stuff like "oh foolishness ur scum because you haven't exposed the entire scum team yet, GO TO WORK", but by D3/4, known players like Wiggles should have taken a strong stance somewhere. wiggles has not provided any direction, only asking questions of others to appear like he is being pro-town. The only time that wiggles ever takes a stance of any type is when he posts this list, where he also randomly calls deconduo town based off of pms. I wouldn't mind this kind of post D1. On D3/N3, wiggles is essentially saying "lynch into this list and we will strike scum. but uh don't lynch me", while not giving any reasoning whatsoever. The kicker, for me, comes from my conversation in PMs and Wiggles' stance on Palmar: Wiggles and I talked about a number of thread topics, and he always replied with a fairly consistent post length, in terms of content and depth (standard paragraph) Why would I ask you to lynch me? I also never told you to lynch into the list right away, either. I told you that there's scum in the list, and if everyone dies in it except for a few people, then you have a scum there nearly for sure. I don't see why I'd give reasoning for not lynching myself, when I wouldn't lynch myself, and know I'm town. I kept myself on the list for everyone, but took myself and deconduo off for myself, so there's no need to justify not lynching myself, to myself. On March 20 2012 12:08 EchelonTee wrote: EBWOP: Guess post isn't going up yet, last paragraph from my big one should be this: The kicker, for me, comes from my conversation in PMs and Wiggles' stance on Palmar: Wiggles and I talked about a number of thread topics, and he always replied with a fairly consistent post length, in terms of content and depth (standard paragraph). but on the topic of palmar (and mattchew), wiggles posted wayy more analysis and reasoning about why he felt palmar was suspicious, especially considering jackal's town flip. The fact that he put a lot more on this (pm was 2.5x length), while ignoring the fact that palmar took out kurumi, and other aspects of the game in general, makes me feel that he was tryign to get me to push palmar (i had earlier said I would push palmar if jackal flipped green). It's weird that he would put a lot of effort into that push, a push made out of thread and towards a newbie, and if I had gone for it and palmar flipped green, I would take the fall for him completely. overall wiggles don't take responsibility. yah. I put a lot more into that PM, because the PM was mostly hypothesis that needed external confirmation. I never said that Palmar was scum, just that everyone calling him confirmed town was stupid and that I wanted to probe deeper into his reasonings and keep my eye on him. Palmar didn't take out Kurumi, Kurumi took out himself. Palmar made a super-timid wishy-washy post saying that Kurumi claimed to him, and didn't even push the lynch. I even wrote this in my PM, if you read it. If you think this was an attempt to get you to push Palmar, then I don't know what to say. I didn't say he was certain scum, I never asked you to push him in the thread, and I never even proclaimed I had decided for myself that he was scum, because I was still trying to get him to tell me why he shot Jackal. Also, there's no way you'd have been able to lynch Palmar by yourself, even if I asked you to. If I wanted to do that, I'd have had to lead the lynch myself. So, that wouldn't even be a realistic plan. Also, when you're posting a case that has a large basis in your PM communications with someone, why wouldn't you post the relevant PMs? I think that would show a lot more, and let people form their own opinion. + Show Spoiler [PMs] + To: EchelonTee [ Profile | Buddy | Report ] Subject: Re: TL jubjub Date: 3/16/12 15:03 I'm not as sure about Mattchew, but I don't like everyone calling Palmar 'confirmed town'. Here's how things look to me if Palmar is scum, and why I'm trying to press for information in the thread: Palmar mentioned that Kurumi knew there was a Dreamflower role to Curu. Curu said that scum know some roles, so he told him that, and pressed for who the person was. Palmar can't exactly hide him, because that looks way too suspicious. Instead, he reveals him in thread, setting him up for a roleclaim. This is after Kurumi was under a lot of suspicion for being the traitor as well, so it was likely he'd have gotten himself vigged. Note, that this is where people say that Palmar made a case on Kurumi, but Palmar actually didn't say anything about his alignment, and doesn't push for a lynch. On March 15 2012 04:19 Palmar wrote: OK this is super weird. Kurumi claims that he got the information that there is indeed a dreamflower role present in the game with his Role PM. In addition he claims he's a dreamer, ie: gets clues every night. What weirds me out is that I didn't get any information with the role PM, but I know this: I'm just not sure Instead, people pressure Kurumi about his role, and he ends up writing two fake PMs that completely kill him, due to how easy it was to see they were incredibly fake and made up. This is the actual point where Kurumi was labelled as scum by a majority of the thread, and is pushed by people like DrH. Palmar doesn't actually push for the lynch, so it's silly that people are attributing it to him. However, in the meantime, Palmar comes out and uses his king power on Jackal. From what he wrote in the thread, he believed Jackal's claim, and was flip-flopping between people like DrH and Caller. So, to lynch Jackal like that, something must have happened. The only major thing in the thread was that Kurumi claimed, and if I remember correctly, this is before he posted the fake PMs. I want to see if he cites this as the reason for deciding to shoot Jackal, because then the claim could be seen as designed to introduce confusion, and give Palmar another reason to shoot Jackal. Kurumi's claim, didn't actually assure his lynch, until he posted fake PMs. Now, imagine those PMs weren't obviously fake. There was already a lot of resistance to his lynch. If that obviousness wasn't in the thread, there'd have been a lot more resistance, and we probably wouldn't have lynched him. As well, we'd have people trying to crack the clues in his "dream", and wasting their time completely. Also add in Palmar's behaviour in the thread today, which seemed much different than normal, and how he didn't push any scumreads or lynches, even before Kurumi's massive slip. It just adds up to me still being wary of him, and not considering him 'confirmed town'. If everyone does that and he's scum, he's going to wreck the town because they'll just sheep him to mislynches like idiots. Original Message From EchelonTee: we can't know about flips remember. u still think palmar/mattchew are scum now? Original Message From Mr. Wiggles: Yes, Palmar and Mattchew are two likely scum if Jackal flips town. For Kurumi, if he's telling the truth about his PM and flips as Dreamer, I'll be mad at the mods. Original Message From EchelonTee: if they both flip town, then i'm going after palmar. if there's a hide flip my brain will explode. Original Message From Mr. Wiggles: Yeah, I didn't particularly think he was dying. I'm also a bit surprised that he was super quiet all of today, but now that it's approaching the deadline he's flinging shit everywhere. I'm guessing the lynch might be hidden, and if it is, Jackal's alignment will be completely unknown to me. He could be town trying to get suspicions out there, or he could be scum who knows he's going to die and now he's making a bunch of accusations so he distracts the town when he no-flips. If he does no-flip, I'm going to watch carefully for who tries to use his reads to push something, as there's a decent likelihood they're scum. Original Message From EchelonTee: np. i'm of the opinion that jackal didn't lie and shouldn't have shot at night, but that he shouldn't have role claimed that role; should've been able to defend himself with his words. Original Message From Mr. Wiggles: No, I forgot about it, and have been busy. To answer your question, Jackal using his shot basically depends on personal opinion. Some people wanted him to shoot, to clear any confusion about his role, while others wanted him to hold his shot, because there's a much higher chance to hit a townie on night 1, than say, something like night 2 or 3. However, by saying he's holding his shot, he still carries confusion with him, about if he's lying or not, and that distracts some people. It's a tradeoff, and depends on if you think he's lying or not. Original Message From EchelonTee: why no reply? you scum/traitor? And while I'm at it, here's the entirety of my communications with Palmar. For whatever reason, he decided to ignore me, which contributed to me thinking he was scum. + Show Spoiler [Skype Logs] + [3/13/2012 4:04:45 AM] Palmar: so when you wake up [3/13/2012 4:04:48 AM] Palmar: you just roleclaim to me [3/13/2012 4:04:51 AM] Palmar: on your own time. [3/13/2012 2:19:03 PM] Mr. Wiggles: I'm town, but I don't see how my role will help you [3/13/2012 2:19:13 PM] Mr. Wiggles: Will you send me love notes like Pandain? [3/13/2012 2:33:40 PM] Palmar: No sorry [3/13/2012 2:51:20 PM] Mr. Wiggles: So what did you talk to VE about? [3/14/2012 4:03:52 PM] Mr. Wiggles: So were you claiming scum with the Palpatine speech? [3/14/2012 4:47:10 PM] Palmar: no [3/14/2012 4:47:18 PM] Palmar: intentionally dumb? [3/14/2012 4:47:20 PM] Palmar: or just... [3/14/2012 4:47:22 PM] Palmar: derp [3/14/2012 4:47:32 PM] Palmar: can you please be town or something [3/14/2012 4:47:36 PM] Palmar: or at least look town [3/14/2012 4:47:44 PM] Palmar: so I have less people to worry about [3/14/2012 4:47:51 PM] Mr. Wiggles: I'm not being serious [3/14/2012 4:48:13 PM] Palmar: I was claiming emperor btw [3/14/2012 4:48:18 PM] Palmar: I lynch people [3/14/2012 4:48:32 PM] Mr. Wiggles: I"m just laughing, because in the movies, Palpatine was supposed to come in and save the day, and ended up really being a sith lord, so that you do the same thing would be hilarious if you were scum [3/14/2012 4:48:43 PM] Mr. Wiggles: because people wanted you to save them [3/14/2012 4:48:55 PM] Palmar: lol [3/14/2012 4:49:17 PM] Palmar: do you have a useful role?? [3/14/2012 4:49:20 PM] Mr. Wiggles: also pandain 'claimed' scum to me, which made it personally funnier [3/14/2012 4:49:24 PM] Mr. Wiggles: I'm a VT [3/14/2012 4:49:28 PM] Palmar: kk [3/14/2012 4:49:34 PM] Palmar: who do you want to lynch? [3/14/2012 4:50:26 PM] Mr. Wiggles: I'm trying to decide if mattchew is scum or being useless, and kurumi looks like he's most likely lying about his role [3/16/2012 4:29:36 AM] Palmar: ok [3/16/2012 4:29:39 AM] Palmar: now that I'm confirmed town [3/16/2012 4:29:44 AM] Palmar: you need to claim to me. [3/16/2012 7:56:07 AM] Palmar: hey [3/16/2012 7:56:10 AM] Palmar: why you mean to me in thread [3/16/2012 7:56:12 AM] Palmar: is it because I killed your friend? [3/16/2012 8:02:27 AM] Mr. Wiggles: how's that mean? [3/16/2012 8:02:32 AM] Mr. Wiggles: I'm jsut asking a question [3/16/2012 8:02:55 AM] Mr. Wiggles: anyways, I'm off to school, you should answer it [3/16/2012 8:03:09 AM] Palmar: nah [3/16/2012 8:03:10 AM] Palmar: I don't wanna | ||
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Curu
Canada2817 Posts
MISTER WIGGLES? | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
I think Bill Murray is someone we can't let live into the late-game. He's had a complete non-presence in the thread, which could be attributed to being active in PMs, but based on the claims in the thread, he's only talked to layabout, and not for long, either. I don't think he's blue, like Dr. H says, and if he is and has some sort of results, he should probably speak up, but again, I don't think he has anything. Instead, he's only been throwing around reads, but those aren't worth anything with no reasoning behind them, and no thread-presence to back them up. The fact that Dr. H seems to want to let him lurk also puts me a bit on edge about him, and if he flips red, could draw a link between them. Abenson is also someone who should be killed. He's not even playing the game, and just coasting along. If he stays alive until late-game, the outcome will basically become a coin-flip. The fact that he also acquiesces constantly to popular opinion makes him look even worse. This one's a little border-line for how scummy he is, as it's hard to tell scummy inactives from town inactives. The best thing to do with either of them, would be to put actual lynch pressure on them, and see how they react. Not make little cases that don't amount to anything, but seriously threaten them with the lynch until they can satisfy us that they're actually town. ##Vote: Bill Murray These reads are just going through initially. There's other people who are lurking, but I don't have the time to look at them yet. If you want, I can PM you and we can talk about the game tomorrow. Decon, who did you check last night? Also, EchelonTee, what do you think of Curu agreeing with your case? | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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EchelonTee
United States5239 Posts
I'll respond to wiggles tomorrow. Did everyone glaze over palmar's dt check? | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
Expect a big post about these two and EchelonTee tomorrow; i've got you guys, take off your hats, royalty is entering the room | ||
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Jitsu
United States929 Posts
GG | ||
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jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
I would be fine voting for him. | ||
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
Arsonist: Each night sets a prime, following that night can trigger prime at any time. I've also been PMing him and that has strengthened my feelings about his townishness. Finally, most people seem to have missed this: On March 20 2012 01:15 Mattchew wrote: Bill Murray is checked town by Palmar (OMG NEW INFO) he told this to me before his death post Also, my check from last night: Katina chose to PM nobody prplhz has chosen to PM Katina | ||
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jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
Keeps pushing townies. Was against Kurumi lynch. Defends scum (Katina) The only redeeming townie thing he's done is help lynch Kurumi at the end so we would not get a no lynch. Ok If we decide to trust Matt. Then I would like to lynch Katina (Like i have been saying) OR Abenson because hes been pretty much useless. I have a third candidate, but so far I'm not sure if there scum yet. | ||
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
On March 20 2012 21:30 jaybrundage wrote: Hm, the question then is are we going to trust Mattchew. Mattchew, Bill Murray Seems like a very unnecessary and risky gambit to take for scum. If either flip red at any point, we lynch the other. Mattchew, Bill Murray Why would Mattchew claim the check? Just keep quiet and there's one less confirmed town. Mattchew, Bill Murray Unlikely, but the worst case scenario, BM was covered the night Palmar checked him. Mattchew, Bill Murray Most likely scenario. For now I see no reason not to believe Mattchew. As I also said, BM's play and his PMs lead me to believe he is town. | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
Currently it is 10 - 3 If we mislynch it goes to 7 - 3 (unless medic or jailor saves) if we mislynch again it goes to 4 - 3 (unless medic or jailor saves) If we get our first lynch correct it goes to 9 - 2 (only 1 kp) This is a CRUCIAL lynch for us. [3/16/2012 10:52:17 PM] Matt Kaplan: who you checking [3/16/2012 11:27:32 PM] Matt Kaplan: WHO'D YOU CHECK AND WHAT WERE THE RESULTS [3/17/2012 12:05:28 AM] Palmar: bill murray [3/17/2012 12:05:33 AM] Palmar: same as visceraeyes ##vote Mr. Wiggles | ||
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
On March 20 2012 22:12 Mattchew wrote: katina PM'd me btw When? | ||
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