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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Hyshes, the gist is that it is far easier to scumhunt if you can first establish your innocence.
1. If you do not establish your innocence, and have to spend your time defending yourself, you have much less time actively searching for scum. In addition, it can be difficult to scum-hunt when everyone is debating your alignment. You become biased.
2. It is far easier to build a case and gain support for your cause if you have already established an air of innocence. Why would I listen to someone I think is probably scum?
3. Getting lynched Day 1 is generally the worst failure of a town-aligned player. All townies should seek to eliminate their name from the short-list of lynches.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I like how we used progressively more words to explain that 
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On December 04 2011 23:03 Radfield wrote:
Toad, what do you think is our best strat for finding a lynch today. Where does lurker lynching rank for you?
On the random voting thing matter. I got to disagree as well. There's just no advantages imo.
While I don't want to talk about the odds themselves because that's not going to help us I think the most weird thing about lynching someone rnd would be the possible information gain. There's just nothing we're getting out of it.
The reason day1 is weird imo is because there's not much to go by just because there wasn't a confirmed flip yet so everyones kind of a coinflip.
If we end up rnd-lynching we get to the exact same situation on day2. We got someone lynched who may be mafia or town but since it was a rnd-lynch there's not really much to read out of it. So I got to disagree here
On the lurker question: My past 3 games I went something like that
1. Lynch a scummy lurker
2. Lynch someone scummy
3. Lynch a lurker
While 1 is our best option imo and 3 is the thing we should go for when we got nothing really. The reason behind this is that it's going to improve town quality no matter what because we tell people to talk or they run the risk of getting lynched which is the only possibility for mafia to slip in the first place. Additionaly I think if we got some lurkers mafia may try to hide in there and let's face it, worst case in lynching a lurker is going to be a dead, useles townie which is still not as bad as lynching someone active who was helping town.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
What about no lynching? That is an option in this set-up.
Where would you rank it?
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On December 04 2011 23:18 Radfield wrote:
What about no lynching? That is an option in this set-up.
Where would you rank it?
Worst possible option imo. a no-lynch would just make mafia get a couple of freekills while we end up being in the same position we had problems with on day1 with less townies left.
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Brazil5259 Posts
"establishing innocence" is a vague term on this setup IMO. Chances are that there are third party roles out there(ie. Incognito was "black" while Ver and Qatol! were green on the day1 post). If you are town, you probably realize that as well from your role; and if you aren't it doesn't matter because we'll make you lose.
That said, it's important to establish innocence, but more so to find third parties and scums. Just don't go apeshit day1 scumhunting like some people do just to end up getting wrongly lynched later.
And I agree with Toadesstern:
Worst possible option imo. a no-lynch would just make mafia get a couple of freekills while we end up being in the same position we had problems with on day1 with less townies left.
My day1 plan is probably to find out who is going to be my enemy, and who is enemy of who.
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hyshes why are you voting for syllogism?
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Brazil5259 Posts
On December 04 2011 23:33 Refallen wrote:
hyshes why are you voting for syllogism?
Ditto
And are you whose's smurf are you, Refallen?
(for the unwarned, you could join as a smurf if you contacted the hosts about that)
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Brazil5259 Posts
EBWOP
And whose's smurf are you, Refallen?
(dat fail english)
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Not a smurf; I lurk TL while watching SC2, discovered this forum, and enjoyed reading through TL Mafia XLVII!
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Though it gets tiring to read the huge wall of texts sometimes though
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Good morning. Role confirmed. Game on.
Random lynch on day 1 seems counterproductive to me. On day anything really. What would you perceive as a benefit to doing that Palmar?
Posting lists right out of the box about players who are likely on the scum team due to the hosts balancing reminds me a bit of Zodiac lists that have been posted in previous games. More often than not those lists were posted by scum. At least in the games I've seen them used in. You scum Palmar?
The only way to 100% establish your innocence is to die.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Or have a cop die in an open set-up. Sadly inapplicable in this game.
I actually quite like the idea of zodiac lists. Some players have very strong town abilities, and mediocre or weak scum abilities. By placing those players on a list, you let them know that they are being held to their high town standard in this game, and that coasting is not an option.
Unfortunately more than half the players in this game I have not played with before, and half of the rest I have only played with once or twice. My personal zodiac list is Palmar, syllo and sandro, as I know those three players can play to a certain standard, and I expect them to this game as well.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
Sigh I hate zodiac lists they let players such as myself skate by too easily -.-
Also radfield is it really needed to establish a throw away vote so early on?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
A zodiac list is a term coined many games ago. It refers to a list of players, typically the stronger vets, who are held to a high standard. I can't remember the specifics of the original plan, but it was a way to organize blue roles like detectives and medics by directing them either into or away from the zodiac list.
Technically I'm misusing the term here. All I am really talking about is a list of players who playstyles I am familiar with, and who I am going to be keeping a close eye on.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 05 2011 00:20 Drazerk wrote:
Sigh I hate zodiac lists they let players such as myself skate by too easily -.-
Also radfield is it really needed to establish a throw away vote so early on?
Who said it was a throw away vote? Prplhz belongs to the class of players who have the potential to be strong players, yet are not well known enough to draw medic protection or dt investigations. I'm genuinely interested in his response and Day 1 contributions.
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Ya sort of.
It is a list that basically ranks players in a game. Using those rankings you determine who the scum team is by who is getting night killed. Strong players on the list should be dead by day 3 or so. If they're not they're scum.
What it really is is a pile of day 1 wifom that scum can use to push lynches with later in the game.
The games I have played in when a Zodiac list was presented, that list was proposed by scum 3 out of 4 times. So I have a developed a bit of a suspicious nature towards anybody that puts forth a "likely scum list" on day 1.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 05 2011 00:35 Radfield wrote:The original zodiac list plus a follow up comment several years later. Show nested quote +On March 19 2009 22:43 Ace wrote:
*Once again steps up on podium, adjusts tie and waves arms to quiet the crowd down*
Ladies and Gentleman, I present to you - The Plan.
I came up with this while making a sandwich last night, so I'm pretty sure this is going to work.
The idea from this plan sprang from the mindset of the DTs not being able to be rallied. It also comes from the realization that medics can not protect enough vet players this game, so unfortunately some of us will die. We've got to use this little disadvantage and turn it into something positive, and I've come up with an idea.
I'm going to put myself in the shoes of a Mafia player for a second. If I wanted to kill any vet players this game, this is a list of players I'd target for Night 1 death above all else.
Camlito
Qatol
BloodyC0bbler
Ver
Caller
Bockit
iNfuNdiBuLuM
Ace
MrBabyHands
Versatile
Scaramanga
JL13
That's a list of twelve potential targets, for fun let's call them the The Zodiac Brave.
This list is important, because it gives us a place to start. I've got a feeling that somebody on this list is mafia, in fact 3 of them wouldn't be unreasonable. since these are the prime players in the game - if any of these players die during the Night it tightens the suspicion noose on the remaining ones. It also gives the medics a place to focus protections. Sure, the mafia could ignore this list and kill off other players but I'm sure they know letting any of these people live for too long is dangerous.
Now for the hard part - Detectives. I'm going to ask you to ignore these players. Literally, just don't even investigate them unless something like a major clue points to them, it's obvious something fishy is wrong with them, or you need to confirm their ID to speak with them about something critical. Focus your investigations on people not on the list.
Secondly, to the Town in general. Use this list as the start of your clue referencing. Clues are much easier to link when you already have a name in mind. Instead of looking through every profile and trying to match every little clue up - you've got this list of 12 names right here. After Night 1 goes away, the second set of clues + the first Day's clues should be enough to find something on someone listed.
Also, we have to decide who the Sheriff should lock up for the night. It has to be one of these 12. No matter what we try to do, the medics can't protect everyone and the Mafia will stack kills even with RoL dead to take out some vets. Whoever we lock up out of the vets, has to be plain green Towny. Sure they might have to role claim but we can't afford to lock up any critical blue roles on Night 1.
And last but not least - semioldguy. While lynching RoL was a good thing it says nothing about whether he is innocent or not. In fact, I think he's innocent but it doesn't matter. Do not send him any information. His innocence will be proven based on his actions during the game. Same goes for BC. Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 16:16 Ace wrote:
That Zodiac list was just something I devised for a game years ago. Why is that even being used as a strategy at all now? I thought we were at the point that protecting sensible players > protecting people that have experience. No need for that kind of stuff as a concrete thing to follow any more.
Setup discussions are good. That is, until you have silly townies or scum that end up outting Town power roles. As town trying to find a way to break the game is a smart thing to do.
There is no Day 1 guide though. What you do or talk about Day 1 depends on the setup, and most importantly depends on the ability of the people in the game. Even letting people randomly vote 4 hours up until deadline is going to be effective in some games (which I'll talk about in a second). Day 1 the typical town player goal is to A.) not get lynched B.) start looking at the people causing trouble and C.) keep the discussion going about who is scum and what is scummy
Players accomplish these in different ways, but it is a solid way to catch the terrible scum players and eliminate the terrible townies. As I always say, players who tend to get lynched early a lot die like that for a reason - they are bad players.
Now the problem with Day 1 besides the fact that half the town is doing ridiculous things like trying to convince Scum they are Scum - they aren't getting votes on people. Part of the problem with this is that majority of these games are using Deadline Lynch which at this point needs to just GO AWAY. Majority lynch rules should be standard from now on. When people are getting lynched with 3 votes then the Scum don't really need to worry about much, and the town is just offing everyone even though they can't agree on suspects. That's terrible. If players were forced to consolidate their opinions to get a lynch off then you'd see more interesting games.
Get rid of Deadline lynch and things will start to improve. Even if it favors Mafia a bit, that won't be a problem if the Town thinks about what they are doing before reacting too fast.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On December 05 2011 00:25 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 00:20 Drazerk wrote:
Sigh I hate zodiac lists they let players such as myself skate by too easily -.-
Also radfield is it really needed to establish a throw away vote so early on? Who said it was a throw away vote? Prplhz belongs to the class of players who have the potential to be strong players, yet are not well known enough to draw medic protection or dt investigations. I'm genuinely interested in his response and Day 1 contributions.
I dislike randomly voting people at the start of day to spark discussion as it just allows the person to do a blind omgus rather than focusing on everyone. Your not going to stick with Prplhz throughout the entire day at any rate and if you do you will just be tunnelling him which has too many drawbacks.
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EPT
