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On December 07 2011 19:36 TruthBringer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 19:23 Palmar wrote:On December 07 2011 19:15 TruthBringer wrote:
I made a decision at the start of this new day that I would give Palmar a second chance to prove his townliness, but as I suspected he would, he started day 2 off being just as worthless as he was on day 1.
Some guardian angels saved him yesterday when he was receiving lots of votes ("let's switch to zero suspicion hier!")
Bring it on, try and save him again without giving yourselves away.
##vote Palmar Such a safe vote, I wonder if you're just ignorant, or if you're being maliciously ignorant. You will be called out on this so you better be damn sure you know what you're doing. If you're town, you haven't read the game well enough, and you're actively sabotaging your team. If you're scum I don't really care. I wonder how you were expecting me to play day 2? I think I've brought up very valid points regarding annul's claim and syllo's death. But apparently to you that's being useless. Did you even read what I posted before throwing your vote and opinion out like that? That's what the game is all about, being suspicious. Everybody was asking themselves the same things. Did annul really get shot or is he trying to trick people into thinking he is a good guy? Your analysis just sidetracks the issue. We don't know the mafia KP. We don't know if syllogism shot annul. Who cares? Even if syllo shot annul, that doesn't mean annul is good or bad. Syllo was a vigi, he didn't know the role of anybody he shot. Your posts are consistently doing the same thing, exploring irrelevant avenues to deliberately shift the focus from scumhunting. Then there are the frequent, "you suck" style posts. Yes, Palmar, I am the one actively sabotaging the town, not YOU.
The important issue is the fact that it make zero sense to protect annul in this situation. I full well believe annul got shot during the night, there is no reason for him to claim it if he didn't get hit. Looking at how I'd assume this game is balanced, I simply cannot believe mafia has 3kp on top of their already unusually high numbers.
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That post was aimed at VisceraEyes, not you TruthBringer.
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On December 07 2011 19:59 TruthBringer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 19:45 Palmar wrote:On December 07 2011 19:36 TruthBringer wrote:On December 07 2011 19:23 Palmar wrote:On December 07 2011 19:15 TruthBringer wrote:
I made a decision at the start of this new day that I would give Palmar a second chance to prove his townliness, but as I suspected he would, he started day 2 off being just as worthless as he was on day 1.
Some guardian angels saved him yesterday when he was receiving lots of votes ("let's switch to zero suspicion hier!")
Bring it on, try and save him again without giving yourselves away.
##vote Palmar Such a safe vote, I wonder if you're just ignorant, or if you're being maliciously ignorant. You will be called out on this so you better be damn sure you know what you're doing. If you're town, you haven't read the game well enough, and you're actively sabotaging your team. If you're scum I don't really care. I wonder how you were expecting me to play day 2? I think I've brought up very valid points regarding annul's claim and syllo's death. But apparently to you that's being useless. Did you even read what I posted before throwing your vote and opinion out like that? That's what the game is all about, being suspicious. Everybody was asking themselves the same things. Did annul really get shot or is he trying to trick people into thinking he is a good guy? Your analysis just sidetracks the issue. We don't know the mafia KP. We don't know if syllogism shot annul. Who cares? Even if syllo shot annul, that doesn't mean annul is good or bad. Syllo was a vigi, he didn't know the role of anybody he shot. Your posts are consistently doing the same thing, exploring irrelevant avenues to deliberately shift the focus from scumhunting. Then there are the frequent, "you suck" style posts. Yes, Palmar, I am the one actively sabotaging the town, not YOU. The important issue is the fact that it make zero sense to protect annul in this situation. I full well believe annul got shot during the night, there is no reason for him to claim it if he didn't get hit. Looking at how I'd assume this game is balanced, I simply cannot believe mafia has 3kp on top of their already unusually high numbers. Maybe you should state your conclusions in order to be a little bit more helpful rather than sidetracking the issue. So . . . "the important issue is the fact that it make zero sense to protect annul in this situation," therefore . . . redff is mafia (for example). What is the point of going down this path if going down the path does us no good? Is your point that some medic did a bad job? Good point. Everybody let's agree that one of the medics did a bad job last night.
No, my point is that barring further evidence, I have a reason to believe annul was protected by a scumdoc. The reason I'm being ambiguous is that apparently when I'm straight to the point people panic and shoot townies. I don't think a medic did a bad job. I don't think any town medic who actually read the interchange between syllogism and annul during the night would even consider protecting annul.
My point is that I think annul is mafia.
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My initial thought was either a town roleblocker or jailer, because it seems very strange for mafia to perform a roleblock and counterclaim it. Which in turns probably means that both claims are genuine, but it says very little about their alignment.
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On December 07 2011 21:26 redFF wrote:
Palmar's defense of himself doesn't even address the points made against him. His defense basically consists of calling everyone who votes him bad while falling back on a dead confirmed town not thinking he was mafia. Except syllo never said palmar wasn't scum, the closest he came to talking about palmar's alignment was "i hope you're not mafia" or something like that. Palmar's mentioning of how all the good players stayed away from his wagon day 1 serves to make any of the newer players stay away from voting him because it would make them "bad". dude has done no scumhunting and has been attempting to fuck up any pro-town atmosphere we try to create.
##Vote Palmar sorry if I'm terrible.
I've addressed everything that isn't VisceraEyes's case, because that one is really stretching it (read it yourself).
I pressured v7 because I didn't believe he was taking notes, because of the inconsistency between him being willing to paste stuff directly from them regarding radfield, and then refusing syllogism's request for the notes based on them not being formatted well enough. Remember, before he shot Soap I had confirmed to him I retracted my claim, he even specifically asked and I answered. Before the shot.
Syllogism says that shit all the time because he doesn't want to look like an idiot if I flip scum. Read his filter if you're in doubt he was willing to soft-defend or straight up defend me.
Yes I fucked around, does that make me scum? You should know better than this redFF.
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On December 07 2011 22:12 VisceraEyes wrote:
Palmar continues to discredit by dismissal. VE continues to not be surprised. Details at 11.
You were asked about your other scumreads. How about you pull your head out of your ass and answer that?
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On December 07 2011 22:18 prplhz wrote:
@Radfield I already answered that question in my Mattchew analysis.
Some points I'd like everybody to consider:
On Palmar
Palmar was being attacked all night long by VisceraEyes and he hadn't escaped suspicion by a lot of other people even though his bandwagon was very suddenly abandoned yesterday. Why would Palmar as scum shoot syllogism, when syllogism not only found the case on Palmar very weak, he was also one of the most townie players in this game so far? Why would Palmar shoot supersoft, who game after game does not stop sheeping Palmar and thinking he is innocent, this game included? In face of serious accusations, Palmar decided to shoot his two biggest supporters in town. This makes no sense.
On annul
Why would annul claim if there was a scum medic protecting him?
Because if there is another vigilante and not syllogism who shot him, then that person would immediately know he's scum from not claiming. He could gamble that syllogism took the shot, but there is no way of knowing if that's right or wrong. In addition, generally when people claim shots, it gives them town credit.
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Do you think I'm being unrealistic in my assumption that it's both very likely syllogism has the confidence to shoot night one, and that his target of choice would be annul? I know syllogism was pretty mad after xlvii because he was unable to use his shot. He knows he always dies early as town, so he wants to shoot early. When I first read through the daypost I went "wtf? Why the hell didn't syllo shoot?" right up until I saw annul's claim.
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I think it's a bit of a logical leap to assume that since you don't have a read on annul, syllogism can't have a read on annul.
The first thing you do when townies die, is to re-read the game with the knowledge they're town. Town lost cosmic horror because after the most pro-town people were dead, town ignored everything we said. I didn't say a word about annul until syllo flipped. But if you read their exchange during the night, the fact that annul claims a shot and annul's generally worse posting than in XLVII, I think you'll come to the same conclusion as me.
Notice that in XLVII there was a fuckton of controversial stuff surrounding me as well, but in that game annul was one of the people who easily saw past the clusterfuck that was town, and managed to make sense of the situation. This game he seems to be pretty happy riding a fairly dumb train onto me.
##Vote annul
Regarding your analysis against Mattchew, I think there's not enough information from him on the table to accurately judge him at the moment. He did make the right call when he flat out refused to vote for me, that doesn't mean he's town though, because scum know my alignment.
I think killing off annul is going to clear up a lot of issues. Especially regarding my own alignment.
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On December 07 2011 22:42 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 20:38 Radfield wrote:
Palmar, I don't think it all that heinously unlikely a town medic would target annul. However, 2 people claiming roleblock seems too high, which makes me think we might have a jailkeeper. But of course if we have a jailkeeper we don't have 2 medics.
More importantly, does Annul look like scum? I honestly can't tell. I can certainly see a lot of mafia motivation in his posts and actions(jumping on Palmar, casting suspicion on me multiple times, thinking Soap was red and then getting super upset when he died), but his tone looks genuine.
I actually agree here. If I were a medic I probably would have protected rad or annul. I was sitting there yesterday, looking at rads list and thoubt about our options. Syllo was kind of weird. Everyone said he's doing fine but I can't see a lot he did for town, so he was a nullread for me. Palmar was not going to be shot no matter what. He screwed day1 and still a lot of people think he's mafia (he calls them bad but players but still). Why would mafia want to hit that? What's left on rads list would be me, rad and annul. As I'm talking about what I would have done as medic I obviously am not able to protect myself. So it would be either rad or annul. Yeah a close one, I think rad's more important if he's town but some people attacked him and called him out. While palmar gets called out mostly by new players those guys who question his style are more experienced players. I think red, jackal and erandorr kinda-a-fosed him? So I'd either protected rad or hoped they let him live because there's some people attacking him. This goes out to V7: Annul claimed he got shot and protected. Did you get shot and protected? Dza... already claimed he protected you so if you got shot as well it would be some weird 3KP mafia + vigi which makes 4 KP (syllo, ss, annul, V7). Right now it looks like annul was the 3rd KP of mafia or shot by a vigi or he's a liar. Your answer to that question would at least give us some information V7.
Syllo was far more pro-town than anyone else on Rad's list. I think I said back on day 1 I was willing to sheep him because I had a strong town read on him.
As for the v7 thing, that doesn't even make sense. v7 would already have claimed it if he was hit. Trust me on this one, mafia does not have 3kp in this setup. They have 2kp and annul was shot by a vigilante, and I think that vigilante was mr. syllogism.
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On December 07 2011 22:53 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 22:47 Palmar wrote:On December 07 2011 22:42 Toadesstern wrote:On December 07 2011 20:38 Radfield wrote:
Palmar, I don't think it all that heinously unlikely a town medic would target annul. However, 2 people claiming roleblock seems too high, which makes me think we might have a jailkeeper. But of course if we have a jailkeeper we don't have 2 medics.
More importantly, does Annul look like scum? I honestly can't tell. I can certainly see a lot of mafia motivation in his posts and actions(jumping on Palmar, casting suspicion on me multiple times, thinking Soap was red and then getting super upset when he died), but his tone looks genuine.
I actually agree here. If I were a medic I probably would have protected rad or annul. I was sitting there yesterday, looking at rads list and thoubt about our options. Syllo was kind of weird. Everyone said he's doing fine but I can't see a lot he did for town, so he was a nullread for me. Palmar was not going to be shot no matter what. He screwed day1 and still a lot of people think he's mafia (he calls them bad but players but still). Why would mafia want to hit that? What's left on rads list would be me, rad and annul. As I'm talking about what I would have done as medic I obviously am not able to protect myself. So it would be either rad or annul. Yeah a close one, I think rad's more important if he's town but some people attacked him and called him out. While palmar gets called out mostly by new players those guys who question his style are more experienced players. I think red, jackal and erandorr kinda-a-fosed him? So I'd either protected rad or hoped they let him live because there's some people attacking him. This goes out to V7: Annul claimed he got shot and protected. Did you get shot and protected? Dza... already claimed he protected you so if you got shot as well it would be some weird 3KP mafia + vigi which makes 4 KP (syllo, ss, annul, V7). Right now it looks like annul was the 3rd KP of mafia or shot by a vigi or he's a liar. Your answer to that question would at least give us some information V7. Syllo was far more pro-town than anyone else on Rad's list. I think I said back on day 1 I was willing to sheep him because I had a strong town read on him. As for the v7 thing, that doesn't even make sense. v7 would already have claimed it if he was hit. Trust me on this one, mafia does not have 3kp in this setup. They have 2kp and annul was shot by a vigilante, and I think that vigilante was mr. syllogism. Why do you think mafia got 2KP? The usual thing is (#mafia / 2) rounded up so I thought it's not that far-fetched to believe they got 3KP. Also vigi's can't shoot n1 can they? Last game (the 80player thing) I was a vigi for the first time and it specifically said I can't shoot n1 and I had to wait until n2 to shoot the fuck out of Drazerk.
The usual amount of mafia in a 25 player game is 5, which is probably why we have things like my double vote, as the mafia are 6 in this game.
And your last game was the exception, vigilantes can always shoot night 1 unless specified otherwise (and there is no limitation of any sort in syllo's role, except him only being able to fire one shot per night).
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(I placed my anon vote on annul, ZBot can process it now, so it should update faster if I decide to change it).
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On December 07 2011 23:01 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 22:57 Palmar wrote:On December 07 2011 22:53 Toadesstern wrote:On December 07 2011 22:47 Palmar wrote:On December 07 2011 22:42 Toadesstern wrote:On December 07 2011 20:38 Radfield wrote:
Palmar, I don't think it all that heinously unlikely a town medic would target annul. However, 2 people claiming roleblock seems too high, which makes me think we might have a jailkeeper. But of course if we have a jailkeeper we don't have 2 medics.
More importantly, does Annul look like scum? I honestly can't tell. I can certainly see a lot of mafia motivation in his posts and actions(jumping on Palmar, casting suspicion on me multiple times, thinking Soap was red and then getting super upset when he died), but his tone looks genuine.
I actually agree here. If I were a medic I probably would have protected rad or annul. I was sitting there yesterday, looking at rads list and thoubt about our options. Syllo was kind of weird. Everyone said he's doing fine but I can't see a lot he did for town, so he was a nullread for me. Palmar was not going to be shot no matter what. He screwed day1 and still a lot of people think he's mafia (he calls them bad but players but still). Why would mafia want to hit that? What's left on rads list would be me, rad and annul. As I'm talking about what I would have done as medic I obviously am not able to protect myself. So it would be either rad or annul. Yeah a close one, I think rad's more important if he's town but some people attacked him and called him out. While palmar gets called out mostly by new players those guys who question his style are more experienced players. I think red, jackal and erandorr kinda-a-fosed him? So I'd either protected rad or hoped they let him live because there's some people attacking him. This goes out to V7: Annul claimed he got shot and protected. Did you get shot and protected? Dza... already claimed he protected you so if you got shot as well it would be some weird 3KP mafia + vigi which makes 4 KP (syllo, ss, annul, V7). Right now it looks like annul was the 3rd KP of mafia or shot by a vigi or he's a liar. Your answer to that question would at least give us some information V7. Syllo was far more pro-town than anyone else on Rad's list. I think I said back on day 1 I was willing to sheep him because I had a strong town read on him. As for the v7 thing, that doesn't even make sense. v7 would already have claimed it if he was hit. Trust me on this one, mafia does not have 3kp in this setup. They have 2kp and annul was shot by a vigilante, and I think that vigilante was mr. syllogism. Why do you think mafia got 2KP? The usual thing is (#mafia / 2) rounded up so I thought it's not that far-fetched to believe they got 3KP. Also vigi's can't shoot n1 can they? Last game (the 80player thing) I was a vigi for the first time and it specifically said I can't shoot n1 and I had to wait until n2 to shoot the fuck out of Drazerk. The usual amount of mafia in a 25 player game is 5, which is probably why we have things like my double vote, as the mafia are 6 in this game. [...] Do mafias have 2 KP like you said in those 25v5 setups or 3KP? That's the important question.
in 20 vs 5 mafia usually has 3 kp until 1 mafia is dead, although it's not a rule. in 19 v 6, I have a hard time mafia KP rule applies because it means we'd have to kill 2 mafia to get it down to 2 kp.
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On December 07 2011 23:07 vaderseven wrote:
kingjames, keep in mind that when palmar started his whole lie that there was a small wag,on forming on me for voting corrupt. I said my notes are bad and then he lied to push the issue. He was never in danger of being labeled the start of a wagon. What he did was lie in the optertunistic fashion possible and then trolled till the days end to avoid getting lynched. A town player would have just voted for me as that would have most certainly placed me in the running for being lynched.
He is a lair, he is purposefully unhelpful, and he is scum.
His play during the night was a calculated move to transition to a non troll state to avoid a policy lynch situation today.
Two issues with this post. One is that simply voting you and moving on is actually very anti-town. All I wanted was to get you to post your notes, as has been pointed out multiple times. I didn't want you lynched, I wanted to know your alignment and check if you were lying about the notes.
The second is that you call my transition to normal play a calculated move, I wonder what I could have done in order to get you to start believing I'm town? Or are you just that far tunneled in because you're projecting your anger at yourself for being rash yesterday onto me, that you're clinging to the desperate hope I'm scum so you can have some justification, if only to call me bad.
I assume that if I kept trolling, you'd have said I was scum too, and when I stopped trolling, I'm also scum. What are the requirements for you to actually give the game a second read?
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On December 07 2011 23:15 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok next thing came to my mind: How likely is it that there's two different medic roles in this game?
Drazerk claimed he's a RB-immun-Medic that has to claim n1 as far as I recall. At least that's the reason he claimed I think.
He said he protected V7 and yet we have, according to annul a successful save that's not V7. So that means we got a 2nd medic in this game if both claims are correct. The 2nd medic however does not seem to have to claim like Drazerk did.
On top of that I still think mafia would like to get something like V7's role out of this game. A dayvig that's able to also do other stuff is pretty awesome. Radfield already mentioned the Chances of a Mafia visit on V7 are like 99%. Do you really think mafia let's a claimed blue role that has already proven that he's not bullshitting alive?
Drazerk's claim may as well be bollocks. If you think I troll mafia games, you should read Drazerk's history of playing. It doesn't even tell us anything about his alignment if he's lying. However, after what has happened I'm more willing to believe he's not scum, although trying to tell his alignment is kinda.... meh.
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Yes, and because of how this day seems to be playing out, his alignment and his role is irrelevant for now. The focus of the discussion should be me and annul.
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On December 07 2011 23:40 Zephirdd wrote:Right off the bat, it's clear that he won't follow any advices regarding his playstyle. When town was told to worry about establishing innocence, redFF goes straight into an aggressive instance voting on Palmar before all the bullshit. Every single post of his is a bad post. filter. One-line, simple, double-posting(to generate volume on the filter), mostly zero content. Reminds me of someone on another game.
Not a scumtell. Being aggressive and independent is if anything more likely to be something townies do. While his case on me was terribly forced because there was no content to analyse, it doesn't automatically make him scum. Not to mention, the game you're pointing to, Serejai was town.
His "tunneling" of Corrupt ceased very soon, he didn't push him any more than after the huge post Corrupt made, despite "still being suspicious of him". It just goes with my idea that Corrupt is also scum.
You can't determine anything about anyone from the actions of others, if you allow yourself that, then you're opening up a new arsenal of weapons for scum. Analyze each one of them individually, but not together.
He goes on of how much we need a lynch of some sort, and then goes with this Exactly how much is that true? I don't disagree that it was good to lynch Hier, but how is not being on a wagon anti-town and not anti-scum? What bugs me the most is how much thought he puts into his posts: none. He doesn't expand on that thought and doesn't explain why a no-lynch would be bad in his opinion, not even to echo somebody's else opinion.
Putting no thought into your posts concludes the person is trolling, dumb, or an asshole. None of these can be directly associated with that person being scum.
Later, he goes back to Palmar, not because he "thinks he is scummy", but because "he is fucking around and is detrimental to town. plus we need a lynch."; Inconsistency to fit what looked like the easiest wagon at the time.
And of course he switches to Hier in order to achieve that lynch, that was soooo useful for town.
Some people hold the belief that a lynch must always be achieved very highly. Many of those people do it as town too.
Corrupt then tries a mildly bad case on him during the night, that is just answered with an all-caps post. Nobody picks it, and they move on - Corrupt doesn't continue with it, everything is gone and people just ignore both.
Stop creating links you cannot know exist.
Day 2 had his best posts all game long: appealing to new players the same way he says Palmar did. He even tells how Palmar has done no scumhunting and is trying to fuck up any pro-town atmosphere "we" try to create, when in fact his own posts aren't creating any town atmosphere and even warranted a couple of mod warnings.
Grats, you've successfully proven redFF is a moron. That doesn't make him scum.
redFF is scum
If you don't think so, at least take your time to take a close look at his actions, and ask yourself whether those actions are good for town or not.
My vote goes to him, obviously.
Now go put your vote on annul.
I'm not ruling out the possibility of redFF being scum, there just isn't any concrete evidence for it at the moment, so I think you'd do much more good voting for annul.
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On December 07 2011 23:43 vaderseven wrote:
Can we lease stop wifoming the night kills? It accomplishes nothing.
The bottom line is that, gasp, every single night the scum will attempt to hit, you guessed it, town. Seeing as they know who the scum are its really not hard for them to choose a correct target. Any other speculation on thier choices is wifon to the largest degree.
You're wrong, but that's ok.
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Hey Mattchew, vote annul.
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Any town medic should not step up unless it's absolutely certain that annul will be lynched otherwise. Hopefully no medic will step up because mafia won't like having 2 people owned today.
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EPT
