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On September 22 2011 04:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 04:24 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On September 22 2011 04:17 chaoser wrote:
Yeah it's WIFOM but not all WIFOM is the same. Everything in the game is technically WIFOM, even someone pushing intensely for a mafia's lynch. This one literally makes no sense. Agreed, I don't think chaoser and iGrok are part of a scum team together. If he planned to bus his teammate, he would have kept his vote there. On September 22 2011 04:18 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2011 04:03 chaoser wrote:On September 22 2011 04:00 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2011 03:57 chaoser wrote:On September 22 2011 03:55 Jackal58 wrote:On September 22 2011 03:37 chaoser wrote:On September 22 2011 03:25 kitaman27 wrote:On September 22 2011 03:13 chaoser wrote:
iGrok's claim makes no sense as a mafia, it makes more sense as a third party trying to fulfill their wincon early. I'm ok with a jackal lynch. He's posting a lot in the pony thread, not a lot here. Everything else radfield has said. If wherebugsgo is a mafia hit then it makes sense for jackal to push for the ring to be given to wherebugsgo. WBG gets ring, dies to mafia.
##vote: Jackal58 Could you explain how your opinion shifted from lynching igrok to letting him live in such a short amount of time? How did the claim go from scum to no sense as mafia? Also, what in specific about radfield's case makes you think jackal is scum? I never said he was scum. I was thinking how it was protactinium all over again (black role saying it would help town if town helped it) and voted him on a jerk-knee reaction. 5 minutes later I remembered that the way we dealt with the prot case was to just let him die and not wasting a lynch. We're here to lynch mafia, not waste time on third parties. A third party lynch is a lynch that mafia loves. They get to pile on to the vote with almost no repercussions since black role is "anti-town" and it also gets rid of a competitor. Let the mafia deal with it, I assume iGrok is balrog=SK since he's apparently bulletproof (syg day shot him). This part got me convinced: He also claims that he's fine with lynching either Prp or WBG and that both are scummy.
Although after prplhz's last post he is putting forth a 100% complete scum agenda. I'm ok with lynching either of them. (WBG or prplhz)
Yet later in the thread jackal makes two things very clear. One: WBG is very likely third party(pushes this multiple times) and Two: Jackal would vote for a scummy player but doesn't find anyone else scummy:
Oh the one where I thought lynching a 3rd party suspect was better than a mislynch? I can understand if there was a transition between the two but there wasn't. He goes from "I think prp is a good scum vote straight to "vote wbg!". What about you? Put it in the context it was posted in. On September 18 2011 21:44 Jackal58 wrote:
Then I suppose it's time for a paradigm shift Mr. jcarlsoniv.
Although after prplhz's last post he is putting forth a 100% complete scum agenda. I'm ok with lynching either of them. (WBG or prplhz) You've just flip flopped on iGrok and me. I guess that makes you scum. I posted my reasoning for the switch (he's probably third party, let mafia deal with him). You didn't. He wins with mafia, why would mafia deal with him? He wins by SURVIVING. That's with either party, town or mafia. If he's bulletproof (which apparently he ISN'T anymore) then he would only die by being lynched. That makes it easier to ally with town so we wouldn't lynch him. At that time, I wrote that post based on the information then (he got shot, survived, he looked like he was lying in his claim). Yeah, he wins with mafia TOO, so why would mafia kill waste a KP on him over townie? He can pick his side and he sure will pick a side that suits him best. Also no townie can confirm 100% that iGrok actually isn't mafia. On September 22 2011 04:05 syllogism wrote:
He is still claiming to be Balrog the Neutral Survivor who had to kill a townie (wait woops he doesn't even have to personally kill him despite having abilities specifically designed for it!) before he wins and then he can win with either alignment! And our win con is to purge all Evil so if Balrog isn't evil, well Curu really messed up Also this. Something stinks about iGrok's claim for sure. ##Vote iGrok iGrok i still would like to hear your response, why do you find sandroba scummy? If we use his ability and hit a scum, it puts us in a very advantageous position. Mafia might kill him in the hopes that he doesn't choose to use his kill. Can you confirm 100% iGrok is not mafia?
Can you confirm 100% anyone is not mafia?
The question you want to be asking is "Can you attest that the chances of X being mafia are higher than the chances of Y being mafia?"
If Y was iGrok, I would say yes for the following current candidates
-Palmar
-TranceStorm
-I'm undecided on Jackal and pyo
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On September 22 2011 04:28 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 04:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Can you confirm 100% iGrok is not mafia? You are blue fishing so fucking hard right now
Yeah, sorry about that. I meant to say:
What makes you and Cyber_Cheese think iGrok would ally town over mafia?
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On September 22 2011 04:28 Jackal58 wrote:I really don't like revisiting this: Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 08:41 Jackal58 wrote:
You're about as much fun to play with as a burning bag of catshit.
Replace me Curu.
What part do you fail to comprehend?
On September 20 2011 14:15 Curu wrote:
After discussion with Mig and BC I have decided to modkill xtfftc, Navillus, chaos13 and DoctorHelvetica. I will discuss the decision after the game. Modkill post will be coming up shortly. Anybody requesting future replacement, simply announce it in the thread and send me a PM with your reasons. Do not post something like chaos13 did, that is blatantly affecting people's reads on you when replacing out.
Don't try to use your asking for a replacement as some sort of "town cred" bullshit. I already called chaos13 out on it, don't you do it too.
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On September 22 2011 04:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 04:28 chaoser wrote:On September 22 2011 04:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Can you confirm 100% iGrok is not mafia? You are blue fishing so fucking hard right now Yeah, sorry about that. I meant to say: What makes you and Cyber_Cheese think iGrok would ally town over mafia?
Town is the majority, his kill would end the game faster if it were to hit a mafia, and that brings his victory closer as well as ours.
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On September 22 2011 04:33 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 04:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2011 04:28 chaoser wrote:On September 22 2011 04:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Can you confirm 100% iGrok is not mafia? You are blue fishing so fucking hard right now Yeah, sorry about that. I meant to say: What makes you and Cyber_Cheese think iGrok would ally town over mafia? Town is the majority, his kill would end the game faster if it were to hit a mafia, and that brings his victory closer as well as ours.
Or then he can wait to the late game and see which side is more powerful. Right now mafia is doing far better then town.
And town still can't be sure he is not mafia, only mafia knows that.
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On September 22 2011 04:33 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 04:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2011 04:28 chaoser wrote:On September 22 2011 04:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Can you confirm 100% iGrok is not mafia? You are blue fishing so fucking hard right now Yeah, sorry about that. I meant to say: What makes you and Cyber_Cheese think iGrok would ally town over mafia? Town is the majority, his kill would end the game faster if it were to hit a mafia, and that brings his victory closer as well as ours.
That's wrong. We are the majority, but mafia has a much higher killpotential. They only lost DrH. We lost many more people. Right now, the scumteam is in an advanteogus position.
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On September 22 2011 04:40 supersoft wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 04:33 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On September 22 2011 04:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2011 04:28 chaoser wrote:On September 22 2011 04:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Can you confirm 100% iGrok is not mafia? You are blue fishing so fucking hard right now Yeah, sorry about that. I meant to say: What makes you and Cyber_Cheese think iGrok would ally town over mafia? Town is the majority, his kill would end the game faster if it were to hit a mafia, and that brings his victory closer as well as ours. That's wrong. We are the majority, but mafia has a much higher killpotential. They only lost DrH. We lost many more people. Right now, the scumteam is in an advanteogus position.
Only because we seem to be concerning ourselves with the third parties, don't forget the scum kp usually goes down as they die, and we can try and find one today to kill. If iGrok's kill isn't on the person we want it on, we lynch him tomorrow and he loses. We don't have to hand over the ring and seal the deal he proposed, he's going to value his survival and eventual victory more than he will value the spite of wasting his kp on one of us.
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On September 22 2011 04:37 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 04:33 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On September 22 2011 04:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2011 04:28 chaoser wrote:On September 22 2011 04:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Can you confirm 100% iGrok is not mafia? You are blue fishing so fucking hard right now Yeah, sorry about that. I meant to say: What makes you and Cyber_Cheese think iGrok would ally town over mafia? Town is the majority, his kill would end the game faster if it were to hit a mafia, and that brings his victory closer as well as ours. Or then he can wait to the late game and see which side is more powerful. Right now mafia is doing far better then town. And town still can't be sure he is not mafia, only mafia knows that.
I'm not sure about you, but that applies to everyone in the game for me.
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On September 22 2011 04:48 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 04:40 supersoft wrote:On September 22 2011 04:33 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On September 22 2011 04:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2011 04:28 chaoser wrote:On September 22 2011 04:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Can you confirm 100% iGrok is not mafia? You are blue fishing so fucking hard right now Yeah, sorry about that. I meant to say: What makes you and Cyber_Cheese think iGrok would ally town over mafia? Town is the majority, his kill would end the game faster if it were to hit a mafia, and that brings his victory closer as well as ours. That's wrong. We are the majority, but mafia has a much higher killpotential. They only lost DrH. We lost many more people. Right now, the scumteam is in an advanteogus position. Only because we seem to be concerning ourselves with the third parties, don't forget the scum kp usually goes down as they die, and we can try and find one today to kill. If iGrok's kill isn't on the person we want it on, we lynch him tomorrow and he loses. We don't have to hand over the ring and seal the deal he proposed, he's going to value his survival and eventual victory more than he will value the spite of wasting his kp on one of us.
You are kinda right there, but as i see it, i'd give iGrok 0% chance of flipping town, 80% 3rd party, and 20% mafia.
That's the best case i got, and i dont think i can come up with anything better until final votecount. That's why iGrok needs to come back from the shadows and try to say at least something, becouse every second i'm more convinced that he is actually mafia and about to earn a free pass for many days.
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On September 22 2011 04:48 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 04:40 supersoft wrote:On September 22 2011 04:33 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On September 22 2011 04:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2011 04:28 chaoser wrote:On September 22 2011 04:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Can you confirm 100% iGrok is not mafia? You are blue fishing so fucking hard right now Yeah, sorry about that. I meant to say: What makes you and Cyber_Cheese think iGrok would ally town over mafia? Town is the majority, his kill would end the game faster if it were to hit a mafia, and that brings his victory closer as well as ours. That's wrong. We are the majority, but mafia has a much higher killpotential. They only lost DrH. We lost many more people. Right now, the scumteam is in an advanteogus position. Only because we seem to be concerning ourselves with the third parties, don't forget the scum kp usually goes down as they die, and we can try and find one today to kill. If iGrok's kill isn't on the person we want it on, we lynch him tomorrow and he loses. We don't have to hand over the ring and seal the deal he proposed, he's going to value his survival and eventual victory more than he will value the spite of wasting his kp on one of us.
There's a slight problem with this scenario. The issue is that if iGrok's kill goes off on the wrong target, then lynching him would waste a valuable lynch that would be used for another target. (Much like how lynching him now would waste a potential lynch - the difference is that he can't act in any way in the future).
iGrok's advantage to the town is that he can search for two very specific targets and has a single night kill which could be used in any way, but besides that he becomes quite useless.
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On September 22 2011 04:56 TranceStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 04:48 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On September 22 2011 04:40 supersoft wrote:On September 22 2011 04:33 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On September 22 2011 04:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2011 04:28 chaoser wrote:On September 22 2011 04:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Can you confirm 100% iGrok is not mafia? You are blue fishing so fucking hard right now Yeah, sorry about that. I meant to say: What makes you and Cyber_Cheese think iGrok would ally town over mafia? Town is the majority, his kill would end the game faster if it were to hit a mafia, and that brings his victory closer as well as ours. That's wrong. We are the majority, but mafia has a much higher killpotential. They only lost DrH. We lost many more people. Right now, the scumteam is in an advanteogus position. Only because we seem to be concerning ourselves with the third parties, don't forget the scum kp usually goes down as they die, and we can try and find one today to kill. If iGrok's kill isn't on the person we want it on, we lynch him tomorrow and he loses. We don't have to hand over the ring and seal the deal he proposed, he's going to value his survival and eventual victory more than he will value the spite of wasting his kp on one of us. There's a slight problem with this scenario. The issue is that if iGrok's kill goes off on the wrong target, then lynching him would waste a valuable lynch that would be used for another target. (Much like how lynching him now would waste a potential lynch - the difference is that he can't act in any way in the future). iGrok's advantage to the town is that he can search for two very specific targets and has a single night kill which could be used in any way, but besides that he becomes quite useless.
How do you know there are two targets he could search? He stated himself he's not sure if Radagast even is in the game.
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On September 21 2011 20:11 Radfield wrote:
##Vote Jackal
You didn't actually vote in the vote thread radfield
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
We are not lynching third party today and iGrok is far more likely to be third party than scum.
First off the terrible claim: There is zero motivation for mafia to make a claim like this. Contradictory, bullshit wincon, doesn't fit the rest of the facts of the game. Despite recent games, mafia almost always tend to play to their best strat, and a third party claim makes no sense. iGrok's claim makes him MORE likely to get lynched today, when he was under very little pressure. There is no way that a whole scum team vetted that claim, especially not with a whole team full of safe-claims to use.
Drazerk's claim is equally strange. If iGrok IS scum, I see no reason for Drazerk to go to the wall for him, as iGrok is dead tomorrow at the latest if he is scum. Frankly Drazerk's claim seems legit given his breadcrumbing, despite the fact that medic protecting iGrok is terrible. It also fits with iGroks reaction to being hit.
I think it highly likely that iGrok is a third party with either a 'get the ring wincon' or an assassin type role. The whole "give me the ring and i'm bulletproof" seems completely out of line with the rest of the claim. It makes no sense for a survivor to have a condition like this, as presumably they could be done and won long before the game is over, yet still kicking around the game. That makes no sense. Conversely If iGrok is an assassin it obviously makes sense he would not claim assassin and would instead claim some other role.
If iGrok is scum, then he'll be confirmed scum by tomorrow and we lynch him then. If there are third party assassins in the game then iGrok will be dead by the morning. If his wincon is getting the ring then he's harmless. Lynching iGrok today does nothing to help us.
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On September 22 2011 01:30 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 01:10 Radfield wrote:On September 21 2011 20:17 syllogism wrote:
But does Balrog the SK make sense to you? Balrog the mafia seems more realistic and I don't know why he would voluntarily claim balrog instead of his real role (that is, he would then be SK with a more fitting character). He was going to get lynched unless his claim was very good and if this claim buys him that one day, it's a success. He could have a vital scum role that he can use tonight, though I'm not sure how I could reconcile that with him surviving a shot. The problem is there is no impetus for scum to claim third party. Why not just claim town power role, as that is far easier to pull off. Not to mention that towns absolutely LOVE piling on a confirmed third party. Buying himself an extra day is possible, but if that's his strategy then this is a terrible way to do it. Here's the thing, if iGrok was confirmed Third Party, we would absolutely NOT be lynching him. Thing is, this is a totally bullshit claim, and nothing stacks up in that claim. One thing is for certain, iGrok is certainly not town as no townie would ever make that claim. If no one is willing to back me on Jackal(or Pyo) then we should bring the hammer down on iGrok. Why am I scum again? You're not answering me. Why are you not answering me?
I posted the reasons why I think you're scum, I'll post them again here for you, and add to it: Since start of Day 2 you have exactly 1 post with more than 3 lines. You have no scum reads, you have no town reads. There is no way you are not scum.
For emphasis(and because i forgot to actually vote last time):
##Vote Jackal58
+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2011 20:11 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +Alright guys, well you've heard me out. Give me the ring, and I'll start working a hell of a lot harder this game, hunt down Saruman, and give a DT an unblockable shot. Otherwise, I'll basically keep doing what I've done so far. Your move. How bout no. Your claim seems like so much bullshit, yet I see very little motivation for your claim from a mafia perspective. Your claim buys you maximum 1 day if you are scum. Here's what's going to happen: You're not going to get the ring, and you're not going to wait for a dt check. You are going to shoot a target of our choosing tonight, and that target is going to flip with your fancy flavor text. In the event that doesn't happen you are going to get auto-lynched the next day, end of story. If you want to contribute or not, I could care less. Frankly at this point you're just a distraction. You are either mafia shitting things up, and will be confirmed scum tomorrow, or your third party shitting things up and will deliver us a kill. ______________ I'll have more time later on today, but need either Jackal or Pyo to get lynched today. + Show Spoiler +On September 18 2011 21:08 Jackal58 wrote:
I'm just gonna watch this thing grow.
Syllogism is right about my activity in this game. Up to this point though I have had little to nothing to say. Most of you insist upon going back and creating scenarios for the mechanics of the game. I have had no desire to comment on your speculations. He's wrong about my alignment though. But that's ok. It's getting late in the day and votes are scattered all over. Will be interesting to see who all wants to jump all over me. Won't it Heist? On September 18 2011 21:25 Jackal58 wrote:
My vote is going on Bugs. Having played a couple of games with him now I know he is aggressive as town. He has not trolled any games to this point. His activity level is the same but his style is different. I don't believe he is mafia but I do believe he is 3rd party with a separate win condition from town. Right now I see two options for him. Lynch him or give him the ring and see what happens.
If he and the ring leave the game that is probably not a bad thing. If we lynch him and the ring stays in the game that's probably not quite as optimal but still not a bad thing. Worse case scenario is they are both still here tomorrow.
If you have the ring give it to Bugs. I can't believe that will end the game. The ring is inherently evil anyways.
Other than Bugs the only person that has struck me as off is Heist. I'm more sure of Bugs not being town than I am of Heist being scum so Bugs is getting my vote. I cannot reconcile these two statements with a town player. First statement makes an excuse for inactivity in that you don't want to "create scenarios for the mechanics". The second statement, and your reason for voting are based on creating scenarios for the ring mechanic. Add to this that you have refused to weigh in on the major lynch candidates, and have no real scum reads other than heist(who's obviously not getting lynched anytime soon). You have zero contributions this game other than a poor analysis on heist(who you've been poking since day 1). Are you really trying to claim that your only read this entire game is Heist? Jackal and Pyo are both very likely scum, iGrok as well but he will confirm his own alignment(via his night kill) for us. We lynch Jackal first as that narrows down our list of vets. Presumably some of me, chaoser, sandro, syllo, palmar, ON will die tonight which will leave several players out in the open. ##Vote Jackal
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On September 22 2011 05:26 Radfield wrote:
If iGrok is scum, then he'll be confirmed scum by tomorrow and we lynch him then.
How do we will he be confirmed scum?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On September 22 2011 04:53 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 04:48 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On September 22 2011 04:40 supersoft wrote:On September 22 2011 04:33 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On September 22 2011 04:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2011 04:28 chaoser wrote:On September 22 2011 04:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Can you confirm 100% iGrok is not mafia? You are blue fishing so fucking hard right now Yeah, sorry about that. I meant to say: What makes you and Cyber_Cheese think iGrok would ally town over mafia? Town is the majority, his kill would end the game faster if it were to hit a mafia, and that brings his victory closer as well as ours. That's wrong. We are the majority, but mafia has a much higher killpotential. They only lost DrH. We lost many more people. Right now, the scumteam is in an advanteogus position. Only because we seem to be concerning ourselves with the third parties, don't forget the scum kp usually goes down as they die, and we can try and find one today to kill. If iGrok's kill isn't on the person we want it on, we lynch him tomorrow and he loses. We don't have to hand over the ring and seal the deal he proposed, he's going to value his survival and eventual victory more than he will value the spite of wasting his kp on one of us. You are kinda right there, but as i see it, i'd give iGrok 0% chance of flipping town, 80% 3rd party, and 20% mafia. That's the best case i got, and i dont think i can come up with anything better until final votecount. That's why iGrok needs to come back from the shadows and try to say at least something, becouse every second i'm more convinced that he is actually mafia and about to earn a free pass for many days.
Spending a lynch on a third party is awful town play. Options:
a) survivor: harmless
b) Assassin: dead by morning
c) Serial Killer: Needs to kill scum at this point
d) Ringgrabber: harmless
e)Scum: dead come tomorrow
Lynching iGrok is a poor play. Jackal is a far better lynch today, and we need to consolidate on him. Pyo/Palmar are decent lynches but we can't split 3 ways as that lets mafia lead the lynch.
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no i think we're lynching 3rd party today
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Added to that fact is, at the moment, iGrok has offered to help us detect Saruman (if he is in the game) and use his ability to kill him for us. even though he can win with either town or scum, we know who he is now, and thus can just lynch him later if he becomes unhelpful or detrimental.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On September 22 2011 05:29 TranceStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 05:26 Radfield wrote:
If iGrok is scum, then he'll be confirmed scum by tomorrow and we lynch him then.
How do we will he be confirmed scum?
If he is scum he needs to follow through with the shot we direct in order to stay clean for tomorrow. If he does not, then he gets lynched. If he claims he was 'roleblocked' then he gets lynched. If for any reason his target does not die, he gets lynched. If the target we choose is a townie, and scum kill him, AND his flavour comes up with 'consumed by shadow and flame etc" then so be it, as we are successfully directing scum's targets. If scum want to act as a double lynch for us, so much the better. If anyone else ever dies by the same flavour, or if the KP isn't matching up, we lynch him.
It's like in PYP1/2 when scum got the compvig. IT DOESN"T MATTER AS LONG AS WE ARE DIRECTING THE SHOTS.
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okay i am convinced that killing iGrok is suboptimal. I trust his claim. There are no contradicitons in his whole behaviour to it. His play is no VT play, but it also isn't scumplay. Before the claim, he was just useless and a little bit distracting. I guess he wanted to prevent mafia to shoot him and us to lynch him.
What we need is a better target. More than 2 hours to go.
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I'm awake now, and I've calmed down a bit.
First: Palmar, you try to meta me from a game I was BLUE. Dumb.
Now, some of you don't get why I claimed. So look at it from my perspective.
You have a check. You have a oneshot unblockable kill. If you get the ring, you become bulletproof.
If you get the ring, you're fucking set, and you become a town-aligned Bullet-Proof Vigilante with a bonus check.
I doubt mafia have a SECOND unblockable shot, it died with Sauron. Which means I really am unkillable by mafia, which makes me town-aligned.
I'll prove it. I'm not listening to syllogism or Palmar. However, syllogism, who do you think is the most town - I'll let them pick.
Fair compromise?
This is so similar to the Protactinium situation chaoser - but its better for town, and thats why I thought it would work this time.
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EPT
