EPTPick Your Power Insane!
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
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Kavdragon
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Puppeteer Gets a smurf. The player is able to use two accounts, his main account and his smurf accounts. The smurf account will be publically known to all, however, the smurf cannot die or be targeted by any action. Basically he will be two people. If the Puppeteer dies, his smurf will die. In addition, his smurf's vote will not count for voting purposes. Messages to LSB for Insane 2. Original Message From Kavdragon: I was doing a little thinking, and came up with a few ideas for Insane. (Possible roles for me.) Puppeteer: + Show Spoiler + Basic Idea: Player smurfs in insane, as well as playing with his main account. The effect being that he has two different names that he can go by in-game. Variables to be adjusted for balance: (Pick one or two to balance the role if you feel it's too powerful. Or let me pick one or two...) Voting: Ghost Vote: One of the accounts do not count for voting purposes. (Not public information, Player can decide which account's vote counts. (Can change which counts between days?) Death: Lover's Remorse: If one account dies, the other also dies. (I disslike this one because it removes a lot of strategy that you have if Puppeteer's Weakness or Smurf's Trick is used.) Puppeteer's Weakness: If your Main account dies, your smurf also dies. Smurf's Trick If your Smurf account dies, your main also dies. I think it would be fun if the puppeteer had the choice between Puppeteer's Weakness and Smurf's Trick at the end of day one. LOL. Did LSB tell you about this in balance discussions for Insane 2? On May 04 2011 08:06 Kenpachi wrote: oh man.. this game has such fun roles.. If i was good enough, id aim for Puppeteer because of how incredible that role is.. otherwise, id get vengeful player cause i get lynched a lot.  ..I take full credit for the role. =D Here are a few other ideas for roles, since you're throwing balance out of the window: Confessor + Show Spoiler + Basic Idea: Player may be PM'd by anyone in the game. (May not PM back) Variables to be adjusted for balance:(Pick one to balance the role if you feel it's too powerful.) Oath of Silence: May not publicly reveal any information gained through PM's. (Kinda negates a lot of the use, but would force the player to find creative ways of getting around it.) Informant's Discretion: May not reveal the person who PM'd them, but may pass on information. Ambassador: (x4?) + Show Spoiler + Basic idea: You and a known ally are able to communicate with two members of the opposing team. You will all have aliases, and communicate on a quick topic. Variables to be adjusted for balance: One Way Glass: The identity of the town allied ambassadors is not hidden from the mafia. (They will receive no alias.) Half Empty: There is only one ambassador for each team. Never Alone: If the opposing team does NOT pick up the ambassador role, someone will be picked to take up the position. (This may or may not overwrite their previously picked role.) | ||
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Kavdragon
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Looking forward to playing with Chezniu. Also, should I announce my Mayoral campaign yet? | ||
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Kavdragon
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On May 10 2011 13:33 kitaman27 wrote: If you do, the Kavdragon Sucks Party will be back in full force. Excellent. If i recall correctly you the KSP ended up being one of my chief supporters. Glad to have you back. The only people I'm really afraid of are the "Lynch Kav Day One" party members. They know how to get it DONE. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On May 10 2011 21:33 Caller wrote: some asshole told me to sign up so here i am Oh wow. Caller and Ace. Now, to get rid of BC's 1 game ban... | ||
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Kavdragon
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Kavdragon
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Kavdragon
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The mafia know who is on their team and in a normal game this is a big advantage for obvious reasons. However when you introduce many power roles, the ability to communicate and coordinate with team mates becomes much, much more valuable. 1KP for mafia In normal games, the town has two main advantage: Numbers, and power roles. In this game, there are many more power roles, so I think it should be balanced with a smaller number of town players. (Or rather, a smaller ratio of town/mafia). 6 players for mafia My half cent. | ||
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Kavdragon
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Kavdragon
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On May 13 2011 09:29 Barundar wrote: What win condition would a mafia Village Idiot have? Seems like choosing VI would be playing against your mafia win condition, but it's a good question to ask. | ||
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Kavdragon
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...or we can get down to business: Node. On May 14 2011 09:19 Node wrote: Role received. DUN DUN DUUUUUNNNNNNNNN Cool story. What role did you get? On May 14 2011 10:19 Node wrote: I question whether it's a good idea to specifically deny the mafia powerful roles. There are certainly a few roles that would be extraordinarily powerful in the hands of the mafia, but there are enough good-to-very strong roles that if they didn't feel comfortable picking top-tier they could just go elsewhere. In addition, there's the more "quirky" roles where a well-executed tactic could be disastrous (for instance, check out the synergy between the mason and the agent of chaos) but difficult to predict and deny. I'd rather see the town prioritize the roles that would be really powerful in the hands of the town. For instance, the Assassin could basically be used as an alignment-checking DT that kills mafia when they find them. There's very little risk in having the role going to a townie. Other potentially good town roles include Cupid, Priest, and Jailkeeper. I haven't extensively gone into any other possibilities, but there's definitely good stuff out there. Node's ideas are wrong, and wrong in a way that benefits mafia. Mafia wants to get the powerful roles, and the will try to get them. Anything beyond this is WIFOM. We can build a list of roles that the mafia will likely try to obtain, and have town go after those roles. If a townie and a mafia try to get the same role, town wins: The ratio of mafia to townies is 1/4, so if we send one townie to block a role that the mafia want, we only allocate 1/4 of the manpower that the mafia has to in order to try for the role, and they have no better chance of getting that power than the townie does. This is very similar to the reason that 1-1 trades work well. I'm not saying that we should not go for pro-town roles, but that we need to also go for anti town roles. We have a manpower advantage over the mafia, and we should utilize it. Compound this with the fact that node states his opinions very tentatively, and you've got yourself an FOS: node. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On May 14 2011 14:24 Node wrote: Let me put it this way. There are over twenty roles with the power to kill. There are 7 - 10 (depending on how you define them) with the ability to kill or give somebody else the power to kill every cycle. There are at least 5 roles that are only powerful when used by the mafia. If you think we can realistically keep all of those out of the hands of the mafia, well, there's not much I can do for you. I think the courses that the other PYP games took show that it's pretty hard to make things go according to plan, and those had closer to 25 roles as opposed to the ~65 available here. Which is why I think it's important that instead of limiting the choices of the mafia (because they have enough choices that it's almost pointless to try aside from a select few really really powerful roles), it would be better to maximize the powers the town would have to work with. That's what GMarshal is suggesting though. Of course we arn't going to be able to counter every move by the mafia. But there are those roles that are especially good for the mafia, and we need to try to deny them. KP roles may be good for the mafia, but they aren't the best. I'm talking about PoD, janitor, etc... | ||
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Kavdragon
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The end goal being that we can more effectively counter the mafia's plans, or at the very least, make them wifom about it. I haven't had time to think about it enough to advocate actually coming up with a public plan to set in motion against the mafia, because it otherwise seems to me that mafia could easily manipulate/counter most public plans. But I do think that the town would benefit from that sort of discussion more than mafia would. For instance, My first thought for what I would do as mafia would be to blanket as many of the top spots as I can. For instance, pick 1-4 (or 5, depending on the number of mafia). There' a fair chance that one of those won't be conflicted, so they have a good chance of getting the top pick. (For instance, #4 wasn't conflicted in PYP3, so decon got top pick.) The second idea for me would be less risky, and that would be to pick very high numbers to ensure that there is no conflict between them and others. This would ensure that they all get in above those who conflicted. In PYP3, this would have resulted with the mafia getting the 4th-8/9th picks. With that sort of draft, they could very easily pick up several powerful roles, even if they missed the best ones. Of those two, I think that the latter is more likely, so I think that conflict will be a bad thing for the town. Obviously if we plan for the latter, the former becomes more powerful, and they will likely chose that. Because of this, I don't think that any sort of number theory will be that useful in public. (Though there might be some delicious wifom cake in there somewhere for us to throw at them) But again, the discussion about what mafia would do is not for making a public plan based on it, but to help private plans. Anyone else have ideas on what mafia will try as far as number picking goes? | ||
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Kavdragon
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On May 15 2011 04:08 Node wrote: Also, is there anywhere we can see the numbers people have previously picked for the draft? I looked through the previous OPs, and they have the draft orders, but not the numbers themselves. Because I think it'll only add to the wifom within your scum team. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=176529¤tpage=17#340 | ||
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Kavdragon
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On May 15 2011 06:34 Ace wrote: Good idea but trying to figure out what the mafia will pick is pretty much a crapshot at this point. There are just too many roles that are dangerous. Like Radfield iirc said - our best bet is to lynch anyone caught with clearly anti-town roles. This way no one can get away with " I was just picking this to deny Mafia from it" excuses. Imo the top spots should hog as many as the detective roles as possible, and let the middle pickers take prot roles. Mafia having extra KP isn't that scary if there are many prot + known investigation roles to stop them. In essence everyone could literally role claim and just go down the line forming investigations and without a brutal amount of KP Scum would be powerless to stop it. Right, but it's not just about figuring out what the mafia will do. By nature of the fact that it will be a public discussion, it's nearly impossible. But it gives us something else to talk about, put more information and opinions out there which will be very helpful for analyzing afterwards. In addition, if we find out that the #1 draft person is mafia, then it's likely that they blanketed the top picks, and didn't chose the high numbers. This will give us information that there will likely be mafia in those tied up in the conflicting high numbers. Alternatively, if we find a mafia who picked a high number then we gain the information that it's less likely for there to be mafia tied up in conflicting high numbers. (The specifics might be wrong, but the general idea is not. We stand to gain information on how the whole mafia worked by looking at what some of them did.) The only way to avoid this sort of profiling is to not make an organized attempt on the numbers, in which case we win anyways. | ||
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Kavdragon
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This wouldn't work because the vote rigger is a 1 shot power, and over all is more dangerous to the town than helpful. The lists from a default vote will be useful enough that I think the advantage gained by the vote rigger is not worth the risk. | ||
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Kavdragon
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Kavdragon
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Kavdragon
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[2][1]. I KNEW I should have just picked 3141592653589793238462643383... | ||
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Kavdragon
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On that note, I'd like to swear my undying loyalty to the co-host. Something tells me that someone that powerful isn't going to necessarily have a alignment. Is it possible that FW holds some role similar to that of the instructor in Dr.H's battle royal? | ||
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Kavdragon
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1. Flamewheel 2. Scamp [7][11] 3. Caller 4. Barundar 5. Radfield 6. GMarshal 7. Deconduo 8. Foolishness 9. bumatlarge 10. Kavdragon [2][1] 11. Chaoser [2][x] 12. Fishball 13. KillerSOS 14. Eiii [6][x] 15. Infinitestory [6][10] 16. Dreamflower [4][1] 17. Mr.Wiggles [4][x] 18. Original Name[4][6] 19. tnkted [4][12] 20. Chezinu 21. Ace [9][9] 22. Kurumi [9][x] 23. Incognito[9][x] 24. Node [9][1] 25. kitaman27 [9][1] Just to note, this list isn't going to help all that much now, but hopefully later on after some mafia flip, we will be able to analyse the drafting behaviors. | ||
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Kavdragon
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Kavdragon
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Lol. Apparently i fail at typing. It has been fixed to [9][11] on my list now. | ||
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Kavdragon
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As I see it there are two general ways that each side can go: You can deny the other team's power roles, or you can gain your team's power roles. Statistically it's a horrible idea for the mafia to try to deny us, rather than gain power roles. (Because of the limited number of players on their team) Even though the mafia has the advantage of being able to communicate and organize, I think that the town still has a huge advantage at this stage because of sheer manpower. We have three times the number of players, and I think that using that advantage is going to be key in getting the upper hand in this drafting phase. What I mean is this: We have enough players to both block the mafia from getting their most powerful roles, AND still pick up our most powerful roles. The only thing that we need to figure out is what order we need to take those roles. As mentioned earlier, the mafia can't afford to get any roles that are powerful for the town, unless they are also powerful for the mafia. Because of this, I think that any powers that are weak for the mafia should NOT be chosen early even if they are very powerful for the town. The top picks should be roles that are powerful for both sides, followed by roles that are very powerful in mafia hands (but not so much in town hands), followed by roles that are powerful for town (but not so much for mafia). People have said that we should just not pick mafia roles, and lynch anyone found with them. I disagree strongly, as it is that sort of passive play that will allow the mafia to get exactly what they need, and rofl stomp us. Those role will very likely be taken regardless, so I'd rather do something like Radfield is suggesting, and assign them to people, so that we know where those roles are. Sorry if it covers some things that have already been talked about. Radfield: Even if Flamewheel isn't willing to take thief, it would still work if we just shifted everything down a position, right? | ||
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Kavdragon
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On May 16 2011 23:41 Incognito wrote: Whoever is the vote rigger should rig the votes into 4 sections of roughly equal sizes. Try to spread out the people with the same numbers onto different lists. I disagree. If the vote rigger is the one who decides where people go, we gain no knowledge about the person that they voted for. For instance, if we check a list of 6 people voting for the second or third place lynch, and none of them are mafia, then we get a list of cleared townies, and a huge fos on the person they were voting for. We can only check one list at a time, and while checking a small list is much more helpful, I see no reason why the voterigger needs to get involved to create one. If he messes with the votes, then we lose most of the information we would have gotten from the voting that cycle. Mafia 2 det should be checking mid to small sized lists. (Maybe 4-7 people), They should NOT be checking the list of those voting for the person who was lynched. (As busing is likely to occur once a mafia is the top lynch spot.) | ||
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Kavdragon
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I have held this opinion for a while now: I don't like lynching potentially valuable players day 1. Day 1 is easy to mess up, it's not worth the risk. I'm sure there are better targets out there, like, for instance, Node. I'll post more on that later though. | ||
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Kavdragon
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Also, I | ||
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Kavdragon
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On May 17 2011 00:34 GMarshal wrote: While I'm glad you don't want to lynch me, I have to ask, what part of my behavior is "suspicious"? You aren't acting like your normal townie. In all the games I've watched you in, you've been really obvious when you are townie, and I'm not getting that yet. My current read is that you are on a mafia team that knows/thinks that if you talk a lot, you will be obvious scum, so they are telling to be quiet. But again, day 1 reads are iffy, so I'd rather not lynch a player who has the potential to help the town a lot. | ||
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Kavdragon
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No plans for vote rigging or checking. Let's scum hunt.[/QUOTE] This. On May 17 2011 02:54 Ace wrote: I think right now it's best to just get a few main suspects, and then attempt to split all of our votes between them. Scummiest gets the lynch, vote checking DT gets a few lists. How is this different than what we would do anyways? Would you mind contributing? You wanted to sleep when the town was making plans, and that bugs me. You are the most skilled player as mafia in this game, and that means that you, better than anyone else can figure out what the mafia is most likely to do. I was really hoping that you would put some of that skill forward and help with plans. At any rate, the day is started and it's time to wake up. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On May 17 2011 04:48 Foolishness wrote: No plans for vote rigging or checking. Let's scum hunt. This. On May 17 2011 02:54 Ace wrote: I think right now it's best to just get a few main suspects, and then attempt to split all of our votes between them. Scummiest gets the lynch, vote checking DT gets a few lists. How is this different than what we would do anyways? Would you mind contributing? You wanted to sleep when the town was making plans, and that bugs me. You are the most skilled player as mafia in this game, and that means that you, better than anyone else can figure out what the mafia is most likely to do. I was really hoping that you would put some of that skill forward and help with plans. At any rate, the day is started and it's time to wake up. I was hoping that this wouldn't become an issue, but I can see that it is, and since the mafia will likely try to hide behind it, I want to deal with it asap: On May 17 2011 04:17 GMarshal wrote: ...In this roster of players the majority are experienced people I haven't played with in the past. Incog, fw, dreamflower, etc, are all players I know to be excellent, and who I don't really have a meta read on because they haven't played in a while, so I really don't know how to handle them. Maybe intimidation is not the word, I just don't really have a handle on the situation yet. Also I'm terrified of running afoul of Ver's "don't spam" rule, so I'm trying to make each one of my posts at least somewhat substantial, rather than replying to every post I see/ No. This is a misconception, and I think you know it. These players are known as good players, and time has since turned them into legends. Yes, they are good, but no they are not gods. Don't treat them that way. I don't plan on letting any of them get away with no contribution, or one-liners, and neither should you. I will say it again, even with all the vets, this is not the townie GMarshal I know. That line about not wanting to spam is BS, and you know it. Let ver tell you if you are spamming, but until then start contributing. On May 17 2011 04:39 Caller wrote: i'm going to ignore all of your posts to say this: Nope. Not letting you get away with that. There are a lot of vets in this game, and if we start getting complacent about this style of play, it will be our downfall. "i'm going to ignore all of your posts" is an extremely anti-town attitude. Part of the game is reading the thread, so get with it. I'm not going to say anything if I don't need to say it. And quite frankly, I don't see a need to start jabbing at suspects on day 1, the day where historically we're most likely going to end up lynching a townie. I'll let you guys run rampant for a bit because I'm not familiar with a lot of you guyz posting styles. this is how I roll. Regardless of whether historically day 1 is a good or bad lynch, pointing fingers are "jabbing at suspects" is generating information. The whole reason why day 1 is a hard lynch is because there's not enough information, and you are suggesting that we stop one of our primary sources? That's exactly what the mafia want. They want nothing meaningful to happen day one so that there's nothing to go on day 2. The game started a long time ago, and we have tons of information to start pressuring people with. That generates more information which we use to pressure more people with. If I say something, pay close attention to it. This game isn't about roles, its about peoples, so trying to play to roles is silly. Sure roles are nice and all, but its not mafia if there was no serious analysis done. And trying to do Day 1 analysis without any other information is stupid. I completely agree. If we rely on roles we are doomed from the beginning. It doesn't matter how big of a mod PYPI is on the normal mafia, the game is still about analysis. To say that we shouldn't start analyzing day 1 is ridiculous, and will deny us of some of the juiciest information that we can get our hands on: Reactions and strong opinions. I will say it again, we start scum hunting NOW. Not day 2, not once someone claims, not when ace wakes up. With all the power roles in this game, it's going to be moving fast, and we need to work hard to keep up with it. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On May 17 2011 05:05 Radfield wrote: It's possible that the reason Incognito is proposing his vote rigging plan is because he took the M2DT role and wants the vote rigger to follow his plan. Either way, that's for the vote rigger to decide, so there's no point in discussing it. As far as our day 1 lynch goes, we need to be wary of the Copy Cat role. I think in both PYP games I've played, copy cat was taken by mafia. With a town strategy of role denial, this is again a likely choice for mafia. As such, I think the top players in the draft should not be the focus of our Day 1 lynch. I also realize that I'm in the top part of the draft, so my bias is clear, but hopefully my reasoning makes sense. Therefore, if you want to build a case against someone in the top 6-8 picks(as I do), I recommend you wait until Day 2, when the Copy Cat role has been allocated. In addition we need to worry about the VI. That would be a popular role as I see it, and If someone up high didn't pick it. In general I think we need to be careful about lynching the higher ups if not altogether avoiding it for at least the first day. | ||
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Kavdragon
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Chaoser[2][2] Flamewheel[3][3] Wiggles[4][2] KillerSOS[5][11] Of those Wiggles seems the scummiest, so I'll look into him first. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On May 17 2011 05:36 GMarshal wrote: We don't need to worry about the VI in the sense that its irrelevant if we lynch him as we don't lose, its obviously better that we lynch mafia, but if someone is acting scummy we should not refrain from lynching them out of fear that they are the VI, in my opinion at least. On lynching the higher ups, again I think its a matter of how sure we are, if we are pretty sure someone is scum then I don't think we need to worry about them being a "power role" as long as we believe them them to be mafia. At the very least we can start to build cases against them for tomorrow, even if we decide to avoid lynching them for today. @Radfeild and clashing, I think it best if we assume that the mafia would not *intentionally* clash, thus if we find a mafia in a group of numbers its less than likely that they have another team member in the same number cluster. I like Kav's current idea, while he looks into wiggles I'll look into KillerSOS You misunderstand my idea though, I want people to build their own lists so that they have to put their own ideas out there. I put out my opinion that the mafia would likely go 2,3,4,5,(,6), and then from those numbers I said who I though was the most suspicious. Make your own list, tell us who you think is most suspicious. Don't sheep behind my list, it's the safe thing to do if you want to hide something. | ||
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Kavdragon
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He doesn't make scum slips, he doesn't contradict himself as far as I see, but all of his contributions and posting are very "safe". He doesn't come out with any opinions that are unique, and seems to sheep behind a lot of people in an attempt to blend in. The one thing that sticks out about Mr Wiggles is that he doesn't want to stick out. It seems like he's doing his best to get by with minimal contribution, and that fits my pattern for scum. | ||
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On May 17 2011 07:27 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Now, here's an opinion for you: Trying to figure out mafia numbers with no information is useless. It is complete conjecture, and the very fact you're trying to use it to find people to analyze seems weird to me. There's as much validity in saying, mafia chose 1,2,3,4,5,6, as there is in saying mafia chose 9,9,9,9,9,9. It's useless at the moment, and only gains some kind of validity after at least two mafia are killed, because you'll get an inkling of an idea what their number strategy is. That said, it's still and inkling, and not very much to go on, so using that as a basis for analysis is weak. I'd rather see something behavioural or strategical before anything based off numbers already. You miss the point entirely. The numbers were never something I used to figure out who was scum, but simply a way for me to narrow down who I will focus my posting on. It makes me (and hopefully others) post opinions on who they think is scummy. The numbers add NOTHING to my argument towards someone, they simply were the means by which I selected someone to analyse. | ||
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That being said, I think that the more reasonable course of action is to ignore him for now. | ||
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On May 17 2011 10:47 Ace wrote: Kavdragon's posts. Seemed like more bs to me so I was deciding on which one of them I wanted to spend my next nap dreaming about. Then a host of other people started pointing fingers so I decided to go back to the #1 finger pointer himself. Um...Duh? As I've said before, it's day one, and reads are pretty sketchy because of the lack of information. I'll say it again: The best way to get information is to pressure people and look at the response. Any pushes at this point are obviously going to be pressure, not actual attempts to get someone lynched. (Well. Depending on the response...) Look at my posting: that's pretty much all I've done, from my very first post (pressuring Node) to now, pressuring caller and Wiggles. I have a scum read on you too, but I don't trust myself to make anything close to an accurate read on you (especially since I automatically associate you with scum) so I'm leaving you alone. In general i think that only mafia have something to fear from people applying pressure, as townies will be judged by their reactions. Incog telling pointing fingers and telling FW to nuke is exactly the sort of thing that generates discussion and information on people. For instance, if me and incog start pressuring a townie (esspecially if there's not a much of a reason to) and someone else jumps on, then you've just got your self someone who's looking awfully scummy. This tactic has been used by skilled players to great effect so don't tell me it doesn't work. Also, what you said about putting on scum goggles is a very real danger, but it's something that I've been accepting full knowing because again, it's not about making a real case, it's about pressure. If that requires me to purposefully misinterpret posts, then I'll do it. Of course now that you've made me say this my pressure will be less effective... | ||
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On May 17 2011 12:33 infinitestory wrote: do you realize that there is no way Incog could have known Flamewheel had America unless they were communicating outside of thread, + it looks like Incog is even wrong about it. That's not generating discussion, that's just distracting people, fishing for a claim, putting unreasonable suspicion on fw, etc. Of course FW didn't have a nuke. That was obvious to me from the moment that i saw incog request it. If they were communicating out of thread, then why would they be talking about it in thread? I 100% doubt that Incog thought FW had america either. It was all just a play to put pressure on GMarshal, something that I think was a good idea as he is one of the easier players to read. | ||
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Draft Order: 1. Flamewheel [3][3] 2. Scamp [7][11] 3. Caller [10][4] 4. Barundar [13][1] 5. Radfield 6. GMarshal [17][1] 7. Deconduo 8. Foolishness[1][1] 9. bumatlarge [1][18] 10. Kavdragon [2][1] 11. Chaoser [2][2] 12. Fishball [5][3] 13. KillerSOS[5][11] 14. Eiii [6][7] 15. Infinitestory [6][10] 16. Dreamflower [4][1] 17. Mr.Wiggles [4][2] 18. Original Name[4][6] 19. tnkted [4][12] 20. Chezinu [4][x] 21. Ace [9][11] 22. Kurumi [9][13] 23. Incognito[9][1] 24. Node [9][1] 25. kitaman27 [9][1] Is anyone else still wondering why all the 4's are behind the 5's and 6's? | ||
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Kavdragon
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On May 17 2011 13:05 chaoser wrote: While pressuring is pretty much the best way right now to go about getting people to talk, it's not really pressure when you try to work 4 different people at the same time. Information doesn't come out of that, confusion and multiple people responding to that fingering pointing does. Oops lolol I wrote this up, went to boil some water for tea, and forgot to post lol Yes, but I've not been doing it at the same time. I pressured Node, and got a reaction: Two people also pressured him, and for the most part people didn't have that big of a problem with it. Node disappeared. I moved on. I called caller out on some stuff, and then pressured Mr.Wiggles. People started getting angry about the finger pointing. That's a reaction. I gained information from it. This makes me think that the mafia are getting uncomfortable with the finger pointing that's going on. Am I wrong? | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On May 17 2011 16:23 Caller wrote: I wasn't going to say anything, but then I realized that I've seen a similar so-called "pressure" strategy many, many times before. What happened? It was a mafia trying to out Blues, and sure enough, Cop got outed Day 1, game went downhill from there: There's applying pressure, and then there's trying to win arguments. What you are doing here is just trying to win an argument. My intention has been never been to just "win" arguments. It has been to get information. If it appears differently, then it is because of my poor skill at this game, not out of any malicious intent. If this has been a strategy for mafia in the past, I was unaware of it. If I am mafia, I think that it will become pretty clear soon as I am both in the spotlight, and posting a lot. I've been looking around and I've noticed three types of people (many exceptions of course, cough Chezinu cough), which I'm going to group into three categories. A) People who are taking risks. These are people like Incognito and Flamewheel. B) People who are pussyfooting around and not committing to anything. This should be fairly obvious. C) People who claim to be doing things because it is pro-town while at the same time doing B. This includes people like you. Your argument is this: if we can get information, it is a good thing. This is the same argument certain players have made before-namely, lynching people is good for information. Yes, my argument is that more information benefits the town. No, I disagree with lynching for information. I've never said that before, and it's not something that logically follows from my ideals. As I stated earlier, the pressure was never there with the intent to get someone lynched, it was there to evoke a response. Mafia are not the type of players that take risks. They in fact avoid risks because they have certainty available. Why rely on risk when you have less resources? If every lynch was a 50/50 coinflip between Mafia and Town, Mafia would lose very quickly. Therefore, it is natural for Mafia, whom have an information advantage in this game, to rely on certainty and to avoid risks whenever possible. To that extent, Incognito and Flamewheel both are giving off town vibes. But they are also tricky bastards, so they're still on notice. On the other hand, we have people who aren't committing to anything. This is a sign of either stupid townies or stupid mafia. More likely mafia, because as I said above mafia don't take risks. But they don't matter right now because both of those parties are relatively ineffective this early in the game. Then we have people that are like you. You have played very interestingly-sure, you have been pressuring people, including me, so this could easily be seen as an OMGUS, except it's not. In your very words, you have been pressuring people to get a reaction. That's nice and all, but you yourself have given a reaction in response to Ace's pressure per se. What is this reaction, you ask? It's this: You do three things here: A) Said because I did X, therefore I am not fishy. B) Said to the pressurer that you yourself are fishy, therefore your opinion doesn't count C) Said "I find you suspicious, but I'm not going to do anything about it and instead go after other people." D) Have essentially provided cover for yourself through saying Not at all. First explained my behavior, and summarized it for Ace. Then I told him that I was suspicious of him, which is true, but at the same time I publically acknowledge that I don't trust my read of him. If I didn't think his opinion counted, why would I continue to talk/respond to him? Like I said, I don't trust my ability to read someone who is as skilled a player as Ace is. It's not something that anyone could accurately read day 1, so I'm leaving it alone. I said all that to show him that I am indeed thinking reasonably, and not blindly donning "mafia goggles". therefore justifying any consequences that may potentially result of your actions. Your entire argument basically boils down to "I'm doing this, therefore I'm advancing town's cause, therefore I'm a townie, therefore anything bad that happens is not my fault because I'm a townie." No. That's a terrible excuse, and not one that I can claim. Townies do bad things all the time. Look at what Dr.H did to me in my last game: He lynched me day 1. I still hold that his play style created a hostile environment. Townies can still do bad things, and it is still their fault when it happens. Except this is the scummiest possible argument possible. You don't commit to anything, in the interest of just "getting reactions," and absolve yourself from say, the likelihood that your scum team is going to use the fruits of your "pressure" to figure out who has the stronger roles and shoot them first. You even proceed to make intentionally weak arguments such as using numbers to find mafia-in your own words you even admit that it was a shitty strategy. Would you say that I have not committed to this strategy of getting information, even when ace criticized me for it since my very first post? In addition, don't think that I didn't mean the FoS's that I put out. Those were actual opinions on who I think is scum. I don't apply random pressure, but I wasn't willing to wait for a full case to be found on day one either. And you admit that's how you argue, as well: So we have someone who's playing safe, making shit arguments so people can argue them, never commits to anything-just "pressures until he gets a reaction"-claiming this is all in the name of the greater good, that everybody else should follow suit, and so on and so forth. You've layered your arguments with lots of defenses and absolve yourself of responsibility. This isn't something town does-look in this post, made by someone whom is quite possibly a sneaky bastard but is giving out strong town vibes: I claim all responsibility for my actions. For instance, when I started throwing fos around, I never intended for lots of people to follow suit. If everyone is doing what I am, then it just becomes a confused mess. So I consider myself responsible for starting random fos's, and I'll try my best to shut them down without being hypocritical. This man has balls. Shrugs off an accusation by doing the most direct thing possible. Personally takes responsibility for any holes in his actions. Isn't afraid in general. Seems a bit different, eh? In any case, given the above, I'd like to continue the fingerpointing. ##FOS Kavdragon As I said, it wasn't about getting everyone to point fingers. I'm not saying that people shouldn't point fingers at me, but that we don't need everyone pointing fingers. I welcome both the spotlight that you say I have been avoiding, and the FoS, and under pressure, I am confident that my town alignment will be clear. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
My strategy early game of using bad arguments was because of the lack of information to start with. I don't think that there is any point to continuing this sort of play at this point in the game, so I'll stop. Barundar had a good point: We pressured some people for the first half of the day, but it's time to consolidate targets. The time for lightly pointing fingers is over. It's time for votes to go down. The last thing we need is 10 lynch targets. @Barundar: Where are you getting that the copycat gets to pick a role if a vanilla is lynched? The copy cat gets the first powerrole to die. Vanillas are ignored. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On May 18 2011 02:13 Ace wrote: I've got problems with all of those bolded claims. 1.) Doesn't matter where we lynch right now. We have no idea about where Mafia got their spots, and if Barundar is indeed the scummiest person then he gets the lynch. No tradeoffs. Thing is he isn't scummy at all. All he did was ask for people to stop throwing out scum accusations every other post - and I agree. It will be too easy to just get a random person lynched with this much division. 2.) Effort does not equal pro-town behavior. If you make mistakes, especially blatant ones like mass accusations or using terrible arguments under the guise of generating discussion then you aren't much different than Scum trying to act like they are getting things done. If he has played in games before then this should be clear by now that doing this is not good for town. 3.) No one is too good to not lynch in this game. More so than Kavdragon, Incognito threw around accusations and even worse reasons. The vote for Killsos (omg kill sauce?!). @flamewheel: Being silly is no excuse for getting a free pass. Either way we've got more than enough "contributions" from enough people already. Asking any more people to contribute for now will just serve as clutter because honestly - nothing new is coming from anyone today. It's time we consolidate our votes on a few suspects, get the lynch off, and get the DT to check the list. Yo guys are wasting time with this senseless finger pointing. Incognito is the scummiest person so far. I like how he even told everyone to "go back and read the thread", while not even pointing out what in the thread is so important it requires a re-read. Pretty much just giving orders and no follow up in an effort to look active. Kavdragon is scummy too, but since some people like bumatlarge want to play daddy day care guess he can't be lynched yet. 'tis ok, I've got my gun though. I would dare you to shoot me tonight, but I've already found out what happens when I assume that people are smarter than they actually are. What you suggest is a very passive style of play, which in a high KP game like this, is suicide. We cannot stop working to find scum, even day one, even after a good deal of information has been gathered. You are suggesting that we just sit back, relax and take a break until the lynch so that the DT can check the lists? You are saying that we should rely on the Mafia 2 dt, and other blue roles to win the game for us. It's been said by BC, Ver, Foolishness and countless other vets: WE CANNOT RELY ON BLUES. Sitting back and just chilling till the Mafia 2 dt does their work is not an option. Really? You know better than this. Shutting down the thread is like giving the mafia a free extra night. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On May 18 2011 02:13 Ace wrote: Either way we've got more than enough "contributions" from enough people already. Asking any more people to contribute for now will just serve as clutter because honestly - nothing new is coming from anyone today. It's time we consolidate our votes on a few suspects, get the lynch off, and get the DT to check the list. Yo guys are wasting time with this senseless finger pointing. How do you suggest that we get more information then, Ace? The way I see it, the only people generating discussion (and thus information) have been pestered by you from the start, and you haven't been helping get ANY information. What am i supposed to think? | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On May 18 2011 03:44 Ace wrote: You've got 30+ pages of discussions on plans, tons of accusations, and votes. What more do you need? Stop this "lets get more information" bullshit. You've got enough. The only people I've "pestered" are you and Incognito because both of you are bsing. Who else have I pestered? Show me my posts where I haven't contributed while ignoring all the discussion I've generated. You say I haven't been helping to get any information? Show me what you've gathered then. And don't give me some bullshit "this guy is scum because I can see through his posts" bs. That post Caller made against you was a decent example of how to break down what's going on. Notice he didn't come back 5 minutes later with another accusation? So show and prove hombre. You won't have the chance to post on Day 2. I don't want there to be understandings as that leads to chaos, which benefits mafia, so let me be clear. This is how I play town. Go look at XXXVIII. Look at XXXVI. I'm not that great at picking up on small scum tells, and I know this. I can't do very much with limited information, so it is vital for my scum hunting for me to get as much information as possible. Sorry I'm not as good as the pro's, but I'm not going to let that stop me from trying my best. I don't think that what I have done has hurt the town, and I KNOW that it has helped me. Am I wrong? I admit that I was frustrated with your play earlier, and after looking back at your play, you do contribute some to the discussion, but not as much as I would like. You're not as bad as most people so I'll leave it be, but so you know, these are the types of posts that really frustrate me: + Show Spoiler + On May 14 2011 10:12 Ace wrote: accountability? lol did you read the last 3 PYP games? This exchange with Gmarshal. You use deconstructive criticism to bash his plan. Regardless of whether it was a good/bad plan, it is in the town's best interest to create a positive environment, and the way you go about refuting his plan is doing the exact opposite. This is evidenced later by Gmarshal stating that this was one of the reasons why he stopped posting. Even if he's bs'ing about that, you gave him something to hide behind. More of this. That's not helpful at all. On May 14 2011 12:35 Ace wrote: *nods in agreement with bum's post* I'm not doing any work though. I feel like relaxing this game. This is what your attitude has felt like most of the game. Now, what have I gained from my pressure? Honestly? Not a lot. Node dissapeared, but no one seemed to mind that three people fingered him without much to go on. Node's reaction seems scummy to me, but the fact that no one cared (other than you) makes me think that he's just bored town. When I fingered Mr.Wiggles, many more people started getting upset. This makes me think that Mr.Wiggles is scum, more than his reaction which I wasn't able to read. The most beneficial thing that I have done was get lost of people upset about my fingering, because many people posted opinions, and gave information about how they think, which will be useful later as we can cross-reference what people are saying then, with what they said now. @Node: The way I read ace's post was that we should stop posting or feeling around for information until the lynch. What I was suggesting was that we, as a collective, start posting to apply pressure to those who are in the spotlight. Out of curiosity, Ace, would you be shooting me because you think I'm mafia, or because you're just annoyed? If you think I'm mafia, would you mind bringing up a case? (Other than "he's bs'ing") | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On May 18 2011 08:02 Radfield wrote: Kavdragon, you need to cool it and not respond to every single attack against you. Someone will always disagree with what you say, and keep in mind that some people are actively trying to mess with you. Arguing, which is what you're doing, is not good for the town in general, especially at the end of a Day when we need to find a lynch target. You need to focus less on yourself, and more on the other players in the game. What I'm trying to say is: if someone wants to attack you, they're probably not going to be swayed by any counter-arguments you make. So wait to defend yourself until several people are ganging up and questioning you, or until someone makes a serious case against you. What you're doing is cluttering up the thread a bit, and making it harder to focus in. No hard feelings or anything, I just want to slow down your posting a somewhat. Generally speaking I don't like getting into arguments like that, but there were two other things i wanted to accomplish: The first was to give more information on myself, become more transparent and easier to read. The second was to get more public information on Ace. I still don't trust myself to read ace, but that doesn't mean that the other vet's can't. Ace is the best scum player in this game as I've said before, and I saw a chance to get him to talk. So I continued to argue with him with the hope that it would draw out useful information. Of course he'll probably say that that ^^ is BS, but I don't care anymore. The argument has reached the end of it's usefulness. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On May 18 2011 08:32 Incognito wrote: Also Kavdragon, who has this strange fixation to defending himself without saying anything about me or pushing an alternative. Um, firstly, I HAVE talked about you. I've been defending my style of play, something very similar to yours early on. I've mentioned you in many of the examples I pointed out to ace where he was putting down early "bs" pressure. I'm not pushing you as an alternative because, as I have already said several times, I don't like lynching good players day 1. Day 1 reads are hard, and I've never been in favor of risking them on valuable players. You are a valuable player AND I supported what you were doing, so why would I suggest you as an alternative? On May 18 2011 08:59 Incognito wrote: Incorrect. Here's a post from XXXVIII. This comes early Day 1. Notice how bold and confident it is. Was he wrong? Yes. Honestly, his case is made off of very little information and many assumptions. But that didn't stop him. After his first accusation post he keeps pushing. Even after this, he keeps mentioning his thoughts. All throughout the day he points out scum. Not "gathering information", but real accusations. He accuses at least 5 people throughout day 1. Even when DH says he will consider lynching him, Kav remains aggressive, maintains his focus on DH, and dares DH to lynch him. That is aggressive, risky play. Now look at this game. Kavdragon suddenly retracts into his hole, is "afraid" of good players, and needs to poke for information. He doesn't follow a coherent train of thought, and his defense isn't anywhere near convincing either. He doesn't strongly accuse anyone of anything, and his defense shows that he cares a lot. Overall, strong case for red. ##Vote Kavdragon The reason why I kept pushing was because the Dr.H thing was NOT a pressure play. I honestly thought that he was mafia, and I was making a serious attempt to lynch him. And regarding Dr.H saying he'll lynch me? How is that any different than Ace saying he'll shoot me? I continued to argue with him long after he threatened that. I've never said I was afraid of good players. If that were that were the case, why would I have picked a fight with Ace, and why would I be responding to you? On May 18 2011 09:29 Incognito wrote: For the sake of completeness, lets compare Kavdragon's play in XXXVIII and this game to XXXIV (Pokemafia). In Pokemafia, Kavdragon comes up with a long LSB accusation. Nice and all, except that he doesn't follow up. A few posts later, almost nothing is mentioned about LSB, and he goes off to vote some other random person. Compare to this game, where Kavdragon makes an accusation on Node, and then lets it get buried in the thread. Now I'm 100% certain Kavdragon will be lynched, so here's my suggestion. Keep the votes close among the 4 candidates, with Kavdragon in the lead. If any "save Kavdragon" agenda appears to be occuring, everyone has my full blessing to ignore the assigned vote lists and ensure that Kavdragon is lynched. You fail to mention that I brought the case against LSB well after day one. I've never been aggressive as scum day one. Are you looking through mafia goggles? Honestly, lynching anyone who is vocal day one is a bad idea. I've said this in previous games, when I was town. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
If I'm dead when I get back, I still hold that node and wiggles look scummy. Wiggles more so than node. I wish that we could lynch him tonight, but time is probably too short. Wiggles is doing a good job of looking like he's contributing without actually doing anything substantial. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
Do you honestly expect me to repeat that same behavior? Also, since I won't be able to post this after my death: All newer players, please take note of the fact that Incog, Ace, and Caller all read me wrong. Vet's are not as good as anyone thinks, including themselves. The only thing you should be afraid of is their egos. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
You know what? Screw this. Vet's are overrated and I'm done giving them any sort of special consideration. My case for Ace Ace has done little to help the town, and done lots to hurt it. He's suggested scummy plans, and discouraged good ones. Town agrees that the less Kp is good for the town, Ace picks a KP role . Ace thinks like mafia better than anyone, so the time that he could be most useful to the town is durring the planning phase. Instead of contributing, he deconstructively bashes Gmarshal for his plan. Gmarshal's plan was PRO TOWN and a GOOD IDEA, but poor in the details. Allowing the mafia to take power roles is, and was a bad idea. Instead of helping him refine the plan, or suggesting something different, he says this: On May 14 2011 10:05 Ace wrote: here we go again. Assigning roles before people pick. Disaster incoming. When Gmarshal takes the time to explain his reasoning, he ignores him, replying with On May 14 2011 12:07 Ace wrote: I fell asleep reading this This is an absolutely useless post for the town, and discouraging to a player who is posting opinions. Gmarshal clammed up after this, and stopped posting his ideas. What ace did was damaging to the town atmosphere. Later he posts this: On May 14 2011 12:35 Ace wrote: *nods in agreement with bum's post* I'm not doing any work though. I feel like relaxing this game. I didn't say anything at the time because I figured it was just a vet with an attitude, but since then I've decided that I'm through with letting this sort of thing by. He finally comes in and agrees with something, but he contributes NOTHING at all to it. Wtf? Then he states that he's feeling lazy, and wants to relax this game? If he didn't want to play he shouldn't have signed up. This sort of attitude is anti-town, and shouldn't be allowed. After that he attacks the next thing that happens in the town: The fos's that Incog and myself started. Ace waltzes in and dismisses the behavior with one of his "I'm going to sleep" lines, and adds nothing to the discussion. He doesn't care to explain himself. He just pops in, says "lol" then leaves. This continues for some time where he makes no real contribution. He made this post talking about how I was look at things through "mafia goggles", On May 17 2011 10:09 Ace wrote: Find 1 post - make it look like someone is scum. Look at 5 posts by said person with "they have to be scum goggles" and find things that aren't there. Then he posts things like this, where he does the exact same thing to me: On May 17 2011 13:10 Ace wrote: All you're doing is throwing more suspicion around on aeveryone within your vicinity and hoping for a lucky hit. Big difference between "generating discussion" and "lets see where this dart lands". You're playing darts, I'm playing Connect Four. --------------And now I'm going to be lynched, so let me be brief.---------------------------- Ace continues to be furstratingly negative towards most activity, and starts waving a gun around. I feel like Ace is being useless, but at this point I don't think that he's mafia. I think that he just doesn't know how to play a good townie. I don't think that a mafia ace would have argued the way that he did with me, and I think that the whole gun thing was just a bluff (or not, doesn't really matter) that he used to pressure people. Maybe that was his way of getting information, but whatever. Please look at those people who said that they were uncomfortable lynching me, then voted for me anyways. (Hint: Gmarshal) | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On May 18 2011 11:57 GMarshal wrote: I'm ignoring your analysis of Kav, because as I said its all based on meta considerations. While those are nice to supplement already solid analysis they are a bad thing to base your cases exclusively on, as peoples attitude and style can change from game to game. As I read it your analysis boils down to "he played more aggressive last game, he isn't as aggressive this game". The only thing that might sell me on that lynch is the fact that he isn't pressing any of his accusations, he fingerpoints and then doesn't push for that targets lynch, which, *independent* of meta consideration is a trait of mafia who look to be contributing without contributing. Especially considering all the time he had to "gather information", however I don't think that that alone is damning enough to push for his lynch (and before people say that that's what I did with df and killerSOS, I left killer to the vigis, and am not going to push df and thus derail what seems to be a decent selection of lynch targets). I'm not ignoring your arguments, just saying that in my mind they don't seem to be that solid, come back with posts that show pushing for mafia objectives or a non-town mindset behind them and I'll get behind the kavdragon lynch, but you are going to need something more solid than "he is playing different" to sway me. Ace plays different every game, do we lynch him for that? This turn around is BS. On May 18 2011 12:45 GMarshal wrote: Fuck it, I read callers argument against Kav, and I think its the most solid piece of analysis in this thread, no meta considerations, just behavioral analysis. And frankly it makes sense... Here's hoping that Caller isn't mafia and is just swaying my vote. If you are town, I apologize profusely Kav, nothing sucks more than being the day1 lynch, but it needs to be someone and the case against you makes sense to me. Plus we need to consolidate our votes, we are far too spread out at the moment. ##Unvote ##Vote: Kavdragon | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On May 29 2011 13:49 Incognito wrote: I don't get why my Ace analysis was pretty much ignored after I got shot. I really thought that was a good analysis, as well as a nice instructional guide on good mafia thread control, but oh well. That analysis was GOLD. My favorite post in the game. To those who lynched me day one: You fail at meta reads. The biggest thing to pull from my town meta is that I make lots of mistakes. I'm not careful about what I say, so I end up messing up some things. Like my defense when incog attacked me. My scum play is much more careful. I don't say things that will make people suspect me, but as town I disregard any risks. Also, RoL kept telling me to pick VI, but I wanted to make sure that the most imba role ever (M2DT) got picked. Would have been so funny if i had listened to him. Oh, and my scum list immediatly after dying was: Ace (Or possibly incog, but not both. Ace for not voting me and calling people on my vote list "scummy", after attacking me and calling me scummy) Dreamflower (for hiding behind the "i'm not used to PYP stuff" too much, I must have missed her analyses of Ace and Caller...) Tnkted (For lurking) Mr.Wiggles (Because people reacted when I pressured him) | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On May 29 2011 22:14 Ace wrote: And thats exactly why you got lynched. This isn't a meta problem - it's just you making mistakes. The town would be foolish to say "oh its just the way Kavdragon plays, let him get a pass". When you screw up chances are you get lynched if the town is playing correctly. I never said in there that my play was something that should have kept me from being lynched, but people were pushing me because of meta reasons, and they missed the biggest point from my meta. I agree that the mistakes I made were what lead to my lynch, but the people pushing for my lynch because of my meta were getting my meta wrong. Oh, and I agree that the Scum played a good game after the roles were picked. I think that not organizing your numbers so that they didn't clash was a dangerous game to play, and in the end it hurt you much more than it helped you. You needed better roles with all the power roles out there, and you couldn't do that with most of your team on the bottom of the list. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On May 30 2011 01:45 Kurumi wrote: Kurumi does not understand because every sentence has "meta" in it ;u; Meta is a players background in the game. If i know that Ace likes to lurk in the shadows as scum, but comes out and is really vocal as a townie in all his past games, then I can compare that play to this current game and say "Oh, he's lurking. His meta tells me that he is scum" (fictitious example ^^) Kitaman: -_- I've learned my lesson. I'll be VI every game from now on. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On May 29 2011 22:43 Ace wrote: The chaoser, Barundar and KillerSOS wagons were all so damn ridiculous and they weren't even scum driven. I didn't even VOTE on the Kav wagon and it still happened to my amazement. But Kav made many mistakes. Somehow, some way even with the Kav/Barundar/Incog wagons going on no one sat down and looked back at how they were formed. The only person to bring it up later was Incognito iirc when he said I was pushing the wagon and then didn't even vote for Kav while also undermining him. Of course it got ignored. That was one of the things that I facepalmed about several times after I died, because I noticed it but didn't point it out. You called me scummy, you pushed me, and then when it came time to lynch, you didn't vote me, and you called people voting me scummy. I was going to point it out (actually typed it up) but for some reason it ended up not getting posted. I think IS pointed it out, but he too was ignored. | ||
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