EPTPick Your Power Insane! - Page 68
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Chezinu
United States7432 Posts
me me SO EXCITED! + Show Spoiler + That I'm alive... this is no way spam!  On May 17 2011 06:47 Chezinu wrote: define useless...exactly.. no one really knows... at least no one has yet to inform me.. You see you have to entertain the crowds and win them over. For instance, let's say i want people to keep me around and want to form bonds of friendship. Well, i could tell them about what I did to the last town I lived in or I could show them... + Show Spoiler + Then I could tell everyone how I covered everything up and created this story that the lands remains ruined because the water became salty from agriculture produce when really I blew everything up and had wiggle chase people out of their homes with his zombie-like qualities.. I could say these things.. but would they believe me? Hmm, seems like the same thing happened to my new town as the old one…hmm, what story should I make up this time? Anyways, down to serious business: Why am I still alive? Is it because my lover is a mafia? Is it the fact that I may be the mole? I do not know these things... | ||
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KillerSOS
United States4207 Posts
come on guys. fail. Good luck. | ||
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Meapak_Ziphh
United States6784 Posts
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Fishball
Canada4788 Posts
On May 21 2011 14:28 Ace wrote: Speak on it Fishball. The only thing I'd comment on for now is to have whoever is the King to lynch Chezinu right off the bat, since you are shooting Incognito already. It would be better to deal with, possibly finishing off the list as early as possible since there are only four left (not counting GMarshal). - Caller - Incognito - Chezinu - Node If two of them flip red? Great. Even if one of them flip red, we'll only have 2 candidates remaining with one of them being Mafia. If we do this quick enough, we'll have 40+ hours to discuss who to lynch. | ||
infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
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Fishball
Canada4788 Posts
On May 21 2011 14:31 Chezinu wrote: me me me SO EXCITED! + Show Spoiler + That I'm alive... this is no way spam! Hmm, seems like the same thing happened to my new town as the old one…hmm, what story should I make up this time? Anyways, down to serious business: Why am I still alive? Is it because my lover is a mafia? Is it the fact that I may be the mole? I do not know these things... Dude, if there is a Cupid in the game, or you are the Cupid himself, and you've been paired with another player; If you are Town aligned at all, you should announce who the hell is your lover right now... | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On May 21 2011 14:39 infinitestory wrote: inb4 Node is town inventor, and Incog and Node are bussed tonight. damn I forgot. I guess I'll just investigate someone's role instead then. | ||
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Fishball
Canada4788 Posts
On May 21 2011 14:40 Fishball wrote: Dude, if there is a Cupid in the game, or you are the Cupid himself, and you've been paired with another player; If you are Town aligned at all, you should announce who the hell is your lover right now... Just to elaborate, assuming you're Town and have a Lover in the game. If you're Mafia, then nothing really matters. If your lover is a pro-town player, we might not want him to die with you. If your lover is one of the Mafia suspects, it would only benefit us to know who that person is. Come to think of it, if any Town aligned player has been linked to you, and the Nuke was aimed at you early on, I see no reason for that player to not speak up... which means if the scenario first mentioned is true, your Lover is likely Mafia. So yeah, who is your god damn Lover if you got one. | ||
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Chezinu
United States7432 Posts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzgVLx0dkx4&feature=player_detailpage To answer dream's replacement question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJFQY-Ay-GA&feature=player_detailpage | ||
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infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
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Chezinu
United States7432 Posts
On May 21 2011 14:59 infinitestory wrote: i feel like if Chez were town, he would have been modkilled already for not "playing to win" I don't understand, how am I not playing to win? Unreadable townies make for great secret forces. If I get modkilled for people not understanding my role, then what is the purpose of this game? You see, people have many strategies. Just because mine isn't like yours or the host doesn't mean I'm not playing to win. What if I have masterminded the greatest townie revolution in the history of mafia? All I have to do is send the pm to Ver dictating my plan. Well, to be honest - I already have tolds Ver some of my plans in this pass game so that will enable me to go a little over the deep in. All he told me is that I can be insane, but I just can't spam too much. Well, if you noticed - I haven't cluttered the thread in the past few days for this very reason. Trust me, all my posts have purpose. Well, some of them - others are just jokes... | ||
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infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
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Meapak_Ziphh
United States6784 Posts
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Barundar
Denmark1582 Posts
Chezino those vids are awesome but I hope you die tonight. You too wiggles. | ||
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Incognito
United States2071 Posts
![[image loading]](http://harsharajgatty.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/cornered-20kitten1.jpg) Ace's guide to playing mafia Ace does not fail to disappoint. This game should be a great example for how to play politics and how to play mafia. Lets look at Dreamflower's points against Ace. First, she points out that Ace is tunneling off of very little information, and isn't looking at other people's suspicious actions. Only a few posts into the game, Ace suddenly comes to the conclusion that I'm mafia because I'm finger pointing, and pushes that point through the thread. Yes, I was finger pointing. But why does this make me mafia? Ace gives no such reason. Instead, he continues to push this idea until it finally becomes the truth. Between day 1 and now, Ace has successfully turned the small point about finger pointing into a mass lynch Incognito movement. This is exactly what mafia wants to do. They want to push bad lynches while inflating the notion that the target is "scummy". Once the target flips town, the accuser merely points to the evidence that the "target was scummy". And they are likely to get away with it, given the fact that they've gotten half the town to believe that "target was scummy". So what has Ace been doing here? He's been pushing a movement to lynch me off of shoddy evidence while hiding behind his "finger pointers are suspicious" shield. Let us examine the point about finger pointing. Is finger pointing inherrently suspicious? It is true that mafia want to lynch townies. It is also true that it is generally bad for town when there are multiple candidates out on the field, each with shoddy reasoning. It is also true that bandwagons formed on shoddy reasoning are anti-town. The crux of the matter is that it is anti-town when townies are lynched on shoddy reasoning. Ideally, the mafia want to push innocent lynches without being linked to the lynch. Mafia want to start a bandwagon on townies without being noticed. Why would town want to finger point? Generally, it is a bad idea to vote without explanation. Yet plenty of townies have done it, some to apply pressure (read: Foolishness in XXXVII for Seraph). Inactives also tend to do this. Is this pro-town behavior? Generally not. Is it an indication that said player is scum? No, townies do this all the time. So in general, while finger pointing isn't a very town-friendly action, it isn't a "scumtell". It is a slightly anti-town action that may be good support for other evidence that someone is mafia, but it should certainly not be the basis for any scum accusation. The second piece of Dreamflower's analysis is critical. She points out that Ace has literally ignored all my real contributions, hasn't criticized any of my actual points, and hasn't said anything definitive about anyone (except me and Radfield, who Dreamflower points out was also accused off of shoddy reasoning - Ace accused him because he started the Barundar lynch, even though we have no evidence of Barundar's town alignment). Note how Ace also doesn’t respond to Dreamflower’s accusation, but simply points out some errors in Dreamflower’s post that aren’t crucial to her argument. If you go back to look at Ace's posts, Dreamflower’s accusations are accurate. Ace ignores all my early game points about the politician/vote rigger combo, town roles, and thesis about how the game is progressing. Now I would perfectly understand if Ace disagreed with my points (people like Radfield certainly did). Yet he didn't do that, he merely ignored my post and throughout the whole entire game has refused to acknowledge the fact that I made some key contributions to the discussion. In the meanwhile though, he attacks me for asking people to reread the thread without specifying anything special. Its clear Ace is reading my posts. Selectively reading, that is. Ace is glad to point out where I'm scummy, yet fails to acknowledge some pretty important contributions I have made. Ace agrees that Kavdragon is suspicious earlier in the day ("something piqued my interest), prods him for a few pages in the thread, and even agrees that Kavdragon is timid, but then turns full circle and attacks me for leading the Kavdragon lynch. This is an excellent example of how mafia play. Ace is really the one who starts the Kavdragon lynch. Yet in public opinion, I am responsible for the lynch. Here's what happened. After Caller and Ace get the ball rolling, I fall for the bait and go on a rampant lynch Kavdragon train. My confidence and thread influence work in the mafia's favor this time and is perfect for Ace, as he can now do a 180 and appear to be "saving" Kavdragon while assigning responsibility for the lynch to me. When Kavdragon pops up town, Ace immediately points out the Kavdragon voters as super suspicious while making himself appear like he tried to stop a town lynch. But what did Ace really do? He accuses Kavdragon of BSing when Kavdragon claims he is "trying to gather information", and tells Kavdragon that he won't live til day 2. Later in the day after I have already started on the lynch Kavdragon train, Ace comes out and agrees that Kavdragon is acting timid, thus throwing more fuel onto the fire. Ace never votes Kavdragon, and toward the end of the day, switches his vote back to me (from Radfield) and states that "suspicious are the votes on KavDragon". Complete 180 from his previous (vicious) attacks that Kavdragon wouldn't live to see day 2 and that he was so timid. Once Kavdragon flips green, Ace trumpets the alarm, cries foul, and pretends like he never had a hand in the Kavdragon lynch. This is an example of perfect execution of scum play. Ace shows a textbook example of how to effectively finger point as mafia. Unlike me on day 1, he actively gives reasons for Kavdragon’s scumminess (the reasons are false scumtells, but they seem convincing as reasons nonetheless). This accusation catches fire, which leads others (Caller and myself) to take notice and agree with them. Once we build cases of our own, Ace then backs out right in time to pin the responsibility on me, using it to add fuel to the anti-Incognito case. As evidenced by the fact that he uses the Kavdragon lynch as a reason to paint me red, Ace clearly did not simply change his mind about the Kavdragon lynch. He intentionally started the lynch and blamed it on someone else. Townies have no reason to start a lynch and then turn around and accuse people on the bandwagon. Ace is hiding the fact that he was a major contributor to the Kavdragon lynch. Continuing on into day 2, Ace pops up and cries foul yet again after checking Radfield. While it is very likely that Ace is a capitalist and truly did check Radfield, his announcement does a brilliant job of adding fuel to the fire and furthering his case against "the unRadfield/Incognito duo", which is a complete fabrication. While it is true that Radfield has defended me, it should be pretty clear that Radfield is actually trying to think things through. In any case, Ace's cries of foul play further cast suspicion on Radfield even though Ace never reveals what Radfield's role is. Ace accuses Radfield for not following his own plan (hardly an indication of mafia), and announces to the world that Radfield "tried to pull some slick stuff", implying that Radfield has shady play without giving details. Ace creates a drama about Radfields role, gives out no details, and uses this to further his anti-Radfield case (at this point Radfield is inexplicably tied to me in his eyes). This effectively furthers mafia goals and places doubt on Radfield without Ace having to lie or show any real analysis. Could this action have been done by a townie? A townie has no reason to make a big fuss about Radfield’s role if it is not an absolute indication of scum. After Radfield says that anyone who knows his role should understand why he did not follow his own plan, Ace accepts this explanation, yet still “wonders” why Radfield didn’t follow his plan. Soon after, Ace drops the issue. From Radfield’s explanation, it seems clear that Ace should’ve already known the answer before asking the question. Which means that the only reason Ace could have asked the question was to cause a commotion and spread doubt about Radfield. Ace makes no conclusions and provides no further insights. His reaction to Radfield’s “its obvious” explanation shows that he wasn’t being inquisitive or trying to figure things out, he is intentionally spreading doubt. The vote list also furthers his case against me. Note however, that none of this evidence singles me out as mafia. He trumpets the "kill people on the vote list" mantra to make people want to focus on killing me instead of trying to go for some other suspects. He accepts the vote list at face value, and frames any attack on non-vote list suspects as irrational and anti-town. However, as I and others have pointed out, there is no real reason why we should have utter faith in the vote list. Ace himself even admits that he believes that the possibility of having a framer/GF is high, yet continues to pressure people to focus on the vote list. By focusing on the vote list, Ace is attempting to get townies to conclude on their own that I am mafia, once again without providing any analysis. Here's how the psychology works: Ace emphasizes that 2/5 on the list are mafia and that it is irrational not to lynch off the list. This causes people to think to themselves, "2/5 are mafia, so who do I think are the most suspicious?" Given Ace's constant pushing that I am mafia, townies are likely to subconsciously come to the conclusion that I am mafia, especially if they don't have the time or the willpower to go back through the thread and do a careful analysis. In essence, Ace's reinforcement of the vote list guides the players to the conclusion that I am mafia without him having to provide analysis. Once I nuke Chezinu, Ace again picks at the weaknesses in my posts while ignoring how my actions run counter to what the mafia would want to do. He claims that I agreed that America was an anti-town role (I did not), that I am going against my day 1 plan (I did not have a day 1 plan), that if Chezinu flips mafia then I am bussing him (no reasoning), and that I am anti-town because I did not discuss the nuking. Yet later he declares that "Chezinu is the obvious scum for sure". Is not discussing the nuking anti-town? Well, by itself, not discussing the nuking can by no means be claimed to be a pro-town action, but it isn't necessarily anti-town either. I had many reasons for not discussing the nuke, including not wanting to be bought by a potential mafia politician. Not discussing the nuke doesn't say anything about my alignment one way or the other. Notice how Ace goes about attacking me here. He tries to pin me on ideas I didn't say, paints America as an anti-town role, and questions how not discussing the nuke is pro-town. What he basically does is picks out errors I make and questions how they are pro-town. Logically, yes, not discussing my nuke is not pro-town (although its not anti-town). Ace uses biased questions and frames them in a way that makes me look guilty, when in fact I am not. He emphasizes things that are easy to paint as anti-town actions, while at the same time ignoring contributions I have made that show I'm pro-town. This is exactly what mafia want to do. But mafia is a game where you cannot judge someone as mafia just by how many sketchy actions they make. Proper analysis considers all of a players actions and analyzes them in the context of “what makes this action an action that only can be made by mafia”. Ace has not considered this, and his case against me is flimsy at best. His points consist of minor “scumtells” such as being on the wrong lynch (twice now), finger pointing, picking America, and nuking without discussion. In conclusion, the evidence shows that Ace is undeniably mafia. His actions perfectly align with a mafia mindset, and he carries out actions that could not be made by a townie. In the Kavdragon lynch, Ace is hiding from the fact that he is a major contributor to the lynch, and with the Radfield day 2 commotion, Ace was intentionally spreading doubt. Ace has effectively planted the "Incognito is finger pointing and thus mafia" idea into people's heads. Once I flip town, he will get off the hook because everyone will believe the "fact" that Incognito was scummy, when in reality, Ace has merely fabricated this entire idea. This reminds me of the movie Inception, which, ironically, features Leonardo DiCaprio. I must applaud him for this cleverly thought out humor. | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
You're in the corner and You want to save Your life. You could be and egoistic townie "Hero" or just a scum who has been caught on a blunder. There's valid point that You miraculously evaded two lynches (I think both by 1 vote,maybe 2) still You're doing the same thing: searching for more suspects. I think You agreed at one point that brining more suspects than it is IS BAD. I didn't think so early Day 1 (We had A LOT of time) but now we are on Night 2 and the things WENT CRAZY. Yes,finger pointing IS SUSPICIOUS and You try to make it "legitimate" by saying how it worked in past games,but no,YOU CAN'T RUN AROUND WITH FINGERS! It is obvious that someone will agree with You at one point,thus lynching some random person. You try to classify Your actions as nulltells/pro-town while they're scummy. + Show Spoiler + On May 14 2011 13:30 Incognito wrote: List of invisible posters: GMarshal Kitaman27 tnkted Bum's post is on spot. Fortunately, I already mapped out some stuff. PYP Insane Game Plan The optimal picking strategy revolves around this cute little role: This role obsoletes the PYP1 and PYP3 role picking strategies. The mere existence of the thief on the role list means that it would be seriously harmful for mafia to know where the good roles are. Of course, it’s a no brainer that the good roles are in the beginning part of the list. So my only advice is that if you’re in the beginning of the list, seriously consider picking a role such as NRA member or Meth Man to deter the mafia from hitting/stealing roles from the top of the list. Due to the fact that the mafia can coordinate numbers with each other while the town can’t, it is very likely that mafia will get a spot within the top 3. As shown by the past PYP games, mafia has gotten the first or second spot in all 3 games. Which means town will likely have to be on the defensive, as it is hard to guarantee that we can effectively deny mafia the thief role. The amount of potential KP in this game is huge. This means that there is a huge potential for the game to end quickly. The basic town strategy should be to avoid KP roles, while going heavy on investigative and defensive roles to try to prolong the game. Tier I Roles Mafia 2 Detective + Vote Rigger Inventor Chuiu Jack Modern Detective Role Cop Bullet Bill PYP3 Veteran Doctor Bulletproof Mafia 2 Detective combined with the Vote Rigger is a combo that allows us to break up the town into chunks and analyze with greater ease. The formula is simple. The Vote Rigger rigs the Day 1 Vote into 4 roughly equal blocks with 7, 6, 6, and 5 voters each. All the lurkers/suspicious people are piled onto one list, and the Modern Detective uses his vote check to check one vote block each day, starting with the lurkers. Town then proceeds to analyze the split lists, allowing for more focused analyses. The rest of the investigative roles are used to sort through the lists, while the defensive roles prolong the game and squeeze the mafia. The Mafia will want these roles Kingmaker + Politician Thief Caller Godfather Roleblocker Janitor JailKeeper Puppeteer Hero PYP3 Veteran NRA Member CPR Doctor The best mafia combo pick is Kingmaker + Politician. This effectively gives mafia an unlimited anonymous unblockable dayvig power, capable of sniping off all the top town players. Caller Godfather is also an obvious mafia role. As anyone who’s read Caller’s Mafia V knows, Godfather recruiting high level townies with good roles is a town’s worst nightmare. Denying this role is iffy, as a mafia thief has plenty of time to try to find the role and steal it before it can actually be of use. Jailkeeper, roleblocker, and NRA member are powerful roles for the mafia that prevent investigations, and potentially save mafia from NKs. Hero and PYP 3 veteran cause town pain when mafia slip out of lynches and snipe off a townie. Lastly, puppeteer is surprisingly useful for a good mafia arguer, as it allows them to anonymously mislead town and cause tons of chaos in the thread. However, the most critical roles that we need to deny are the Thief, Politician, Jailkeeper, and Roleblocker. Due to the threat of a mafia thief, we can’t discuss precise strategy here, but townies should strongly consider picking one of these 4 roles. By the way KillerSOS is mafia. Also Node is mafia. There's Your "I HAD NO PLAN LOL WAT U SMOKIN' BRO" Your trickery needs to go to hell,Your actions did nothing but denied us from doing ANYTHING Day 2 besides thinking why Incognito would nuke someone out of blue,while we have King's lynch at disposal and plenty of time (and a pretty legit votecheck list) You knew and still know that Your time is running short,thus You try to spew chaos as much as You can,You contradict Yourself,never change attitude and LIE. Lynch All Liars,remember? Yes I am angry,because You think You're a Holy Hero who everyone should follow,while we caught some blood on Your cape. This is sweet how You try to derail us from the list Gmarshal posted. | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
To be clear: I will not progress a case against Ace until Incog is dead and his alignment ascertained. First off, while I'd love to keep this to myself, the mafia should be able to deduce my role by now anyways, if they haven't, they're really bad. It also seems like there's some sort of ball of suspicion gathering towards me, so lets have this out. Clear your minds for a minute everyone, throw away any impressions of me, and really just look at the facts I'm presenting here. It's easy to skim read, but I really ask you to consider the following: Consider for a moment, that you are a role cop. Night one, you decide to investigate Radfield. You know he said he was going to take Vote Rigger(in his plan), and you're curious as to if he actually did. Night ends and you get you result back. Radfield did not draft Vote Rigger as he claimed he did, rather he drafted bulletproof. So, knowing this, what is your first thought? Is it: Hmmm, I wonder what possible reason Radfield drafted bulletproof for, he said he was going to draft Vote Rigger, I should post in the thread and put some pressure on him to see if I can discern his true reasons. OR, is your reaction: Oh, of course radfield took bulletproof. Given his history, it makes perfect sense. Obviously I should keep pretty mum about his role, as his role becomes useless if ever outted. For those who do not know my history, you might be confused as to why it would be obvious why I drafted bulletproof. I feel fairly confident in this claim: No other player on TL has been shot as often and as early as me. I have died Night One or Night Two in every single town-aligned game of mafia I have ever played(except one). At least half of those have been night one deaths. I have even been shot on Night Zero. Any player who know my history, would not be suspicious in the least when finding out I drafted bulletproof. Regardless of the fact that bulleproof is a poor role for mafia to have chosen, when there are a number of roles which appear town aligned, but also significantly help mafia. If I was mafia, WHY WOULDN"T I HAVE JUST TAKEN VOTE RIGGER?? It's an awesome role for a mafia to have, and would've give tme a huge amount of power down the stretch. Done with the role. Judge for yourself if Aces response to that information was strange, or if it was my role choice instead which was strange. Say what you want about my actions this game, but they have been transparent. Wondering why I voted a certain way? There's reasoning there, so go look. Wondering about anything I've said? It's been reasoned out and explained. I was wrong about KillerSOS, and frankly I think I was wrong about Barundar on Day 1(though you'll notice I have 180ed on him). Fact of the matter is, I was willing to ignore KillerSOS and let him live after his claim. Read the thread, my thought process was there. BUT, he claimed to have tracked Ace(really bad luck). If he had tracked practically anyone else but the one public visit we already knew took place, then he was in the clear. It really seemed like a bs claim at the time. Blech. Infinitestory, I'd love to hear why you think I'm scummy and I really hope it's not just because Foolishness and Ace have repeated it like 10 times each(effectively casting doubt on the analysis of a player known to have good reads). Is it because I am linked to Incognito in your eyes? Is it because I have been willing to stick my neck out and go to bat for certain players? Is it just a certain feeling you have? | ||
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